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Catz:
You mention the financial struggles of trying to be an improving progamer here in the US, but you made the voluntary choice to start ROOT from scratch. I don't know the full details, (so I'll try to avoid saying something incorrect) but as we saw from it's recent acquisition by Complexity -- it's extremely hard to support your own progaming team financially and be a top competitive player at the same time.
I think this is true in Korea as well. By undertaking the challenge of being the founder of a new team, your willing to accept the fact that a good chunk of your time will be tied up in things that have nothing to do with playing sc2.
Look at oGstheWind. By being the coach, he understands that he has let his days as a comptitive player have left him. Look at oGsSpunky, another top player in the beta. He strictly handles the business side of oGs now. At a certain point, you need to realize that you wanted to start something amazing in ROOT, and I for one wish you succeeded, but you can't honestly expect to be as good of a gamer as you could of been. This is just the way it is. It has nothing to do with Koreans coming over and supposedly 'hampering' the ESPORTS growth in the US. Didn't you hear recently that TSL is one of the very few teams with salaried players? The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
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There need to be events that mid-level pro's can win and make a decent money off of. If all events with good money have all the top korean pro's in them, then many of the mid-level pro's will never get to make a living from gaming. End of story.
I say keep NASL as it is, but create other events that suit the needs of the players that below the very top. With prize money.
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On June 18 2011 05:58 QTIP. wrote:
Catz:
You mention the financial struggles of trying to be an improving progamer here in the US, but you made the voluntary choice to start ROOT from scratch. I don't know the full details, (so I'll try to avoid saying something incorrect) but as we saw from it's recent acquisition by Complexity -- it's extremely hard to support your own progaming team financially and be a top competitive player at the same time.
I think this is true in Korea as well. By undertaking the challenge of being the founder of a new team, your willing to accept the fact that a good chunk of your time will be tied up in things that have nothing to do with playing sc2.
Look at oGstheWind. By being the coach, he understands that he has let his days as a comptitive player have left him. Look at oGsSpunky, another top player in the beta. He strictly handles the business side of oGs now. At a certain point, you need to realize that you wanted to start something amazing in ROOT, and I for one wish you succeeded, but you can't honestly expect to be as good of a gamer as you could of been. This is just the way it is. It has nothing to do with Koreans coming over and supposedly 'hampering' the ESPORTS growth in the US. Didn't you hear recently that TSL is one of the very few teams with salaried players? The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
yeah as i've said repeatedly, this is not about myself, im not speaking on my behalf, as I mentioned plenty of times before in this thread, even if everything I hoped for happened, my chances to win anything in my current shape are slim. Im talking about Esports in general and its growth in this hemisphere, not about me making more $
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On June 18 2011 06:47 ThePrince wrote:
There need to be events that mid-level pro's can win and make a decent money off of. If all events with good money have all the top korean pro's in them, then many of the mid-level pro's will never get to make a living from gaming. End of story.
I say keep NASL as it is, but create other events that suit the needs of the players that below the very top. With prize money.
That's a crock of crap
If these mid level pro's really wanted to win money they should practice harder. Simple
On topic what you said, I say there's no such thing as mid level pro. Pro in e-sports means playing it for a living because you love it and you have a passion for it and not only that but for income also.
If you want to join the pro scene and if your not going to dedicate 100 percent in it than there is no point. There's no justifying mid level-pros. LOL what a crock of crap haha
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On June 18 2011 07:02 gosu86 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 06:47 ThePrince wrote:
There need to be events that mid-level pro's can win and make a decent money off of. If all events with good money have all the top korean pro's in them, then many of the mid-level pro's will never get to make a living from gaming. End of story.
I say keep NASL as it is, but create other events that suit the needs of the players that below the very top. With prize money. That's a crock of crap If these mid level pro's really wanted to win money they should practice harder. Simple On topic what you said, I say there's no such thing as mid level pro. Pro in e-sports means playing it for a living because you love it and you have a passion for it and not only that but for income also. If you want to join the pro scene and if your not going to dedicate 100 percent in it than there is no point. There's no justifying mid level-pros. LOL what a crock of crap haha
and next thing you know some one will be asking for tournaments for "low level pros" with huge prize money. a tournament where mid level pros aren't allowed, so we can win alot of money to become mid level.
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On June 18 2011 06:50 coL.CatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 05:58 QTIP. wrote:
Catz:
You mention the financial struggles of trying to be an improving progamer here in the US, but you made the voluntary choice to start ROOT from scratch. I don't know the full details, (so I'll try to avoid saying something incorrect) but as we saw from it's recent acquisition by Complexity -- it's extremely hard to support your own progaming team financially and be a top competitive player at the same time.
I think this is true in Korea as well. By undertaking the challenge of being the founder of a new team, your willing to accept the fact that a good chunk of your time will be tied up in things that have nothing to do with playing sc2.
Look at oGstheWind. By being the coach, he understands that he has let his days as a comptitive player have left him. Look at oGsSpunky, another top player in the beta. He strictly handles the business side of oGs now. At a certain point, you need to realize that you wanted to start something amazing in ROOT, and I for one wish you succeeded, but you can't honestly expect to be as good of a gamer as you could of been. This is just the way it is. It has nothing to do with Koreans coming over and supposedly 'hampering' the ESPORTS growth in the US. Didn't you hear recently that TSL is one of the very few teams with salaried players? The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
yeah as i've said repeatedly, this is not about myself, im not speaking on my behalf, as I mentioned plenty of times before in this thread, even if everything I hoped for happened, my chances to win anything in my current shape are slim. Im talking about Esports in general and its growth in this hemisphere, not about me making more $
:S - Well maybe I misunderstood then... either way... i hope with your recent move to Complexity you'll have more time to be that "home grown" talent that you think will spur NA E-sports growth
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On June 18 2011 02:23 Ownos wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 17 2011 15:39 namedplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote:
All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money. does it really hurts? There are bunch of small tournaments that koreans can't participate in. Foreigners are earning more money than most of koreans because of that. also Foreigners teach, Foreigners earn salary, Foreigners get better sponsors. Are they practicing harder than Koreans? no. Are they better than Koreans? no. Are they earning more money than Koreans? Hell yeah. even Korean SC2 reporters admitted that. Foreigners has better environment in terms of income. This is 100% false. The top earners are all still Korean. The only people to earn almost as much as them is Sjow/WhiteRa by winning 1st in several smaller tournaments. On June 18 2011 01:11 SidianTheBard wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:
basically I see this as catz arguing that all non north americans should be excluded from the NASL to promote the north american scene which is a backwards argument in itself. Without the highest level of competition it's gonna produce much less revenue, and much less prize money. QFT. Right now there aren't many NA players that I want to watch play because when you compare them to higher level players they just aren't good at all. I wonder how many people tune into NASL just to see Foreigners play. For instance, I've always watched Drewbie when he streamed, he was fun to watch, he'd talk to his viewers and produce interesting games. During NASL though I don't care to watch his games because he won't be there commentating or having a fun time and if he's not doing that he won't get my attention because I don't think he is one of the top-level terrans in the world. Instead I'd rather watch NaDa because he is one of the best and most consistent sc2 terrans so far. If the best of the best aren't in a tournament, who cares. There are tons of low level tournaments that get run weekly and they probably always have at most 1k viewers and that's just because it's a bunch of no-name players that people don't really care for. They only get the 1k viewers because they have that 1 random good player that everybody wants to watch. If NASL didn't have Korean/Foreigner players I feel it wouldn't die off, it just wouldn't be racking in the 10k+ viewers it does everytime it streams. Also 100% false. IPL has NA players only and doubled NASL's viewership each time they were on together.
You can only compare the "foreigner only x mixed players" factor when everything else is equal.
IGN Pro League has insanely higher production value, more stable stream, a huge website behind to atract non-typical sc2 viewers and runs elimination matches, while NASL regular-season sometimes generate pointless games.
As a silly counterpoint, I'd bet that the TSL, with mixed players, had a much higher viewership than IGN Pro League.
As like most people on this thread, I agree that it would be beneficial for local scenes to have regional tournaments to motivate amateur players, but professional events should be the arena for the best of the best, regardless of race, gender, age or nationality.
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The only way for mid-level SC2 pros to make money is if SC2 takes off in a really huge way. Only then will the money trickle down to them. As it is, SC2 is mainly tournament winners and big personalities making the most money.
If a player is not as talented in SC2, perhaps they can channel their social talents to market themselves and the game to make the scene bigger. Then there will be more interest, more sponsors, more money, etc and that's how they make a living.
They don't do it by trying to bar competitors from participating.
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On June 18 2011 02:08 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 02:01 Cartel wrote:
Also I'd like to expand Catz's soccer point. Lets say the league has 10 teams, and they have Manchester united as a team in this league as well. Manchester wins the trophy every season. Will people come out to watch ManU play? Will this generate money? Yes. Only for the game that they show up out of the entire season schedule. In the long term, will this be viable? NO of course not! All the other 9 teams wont be able to survive because they dont win, or win only once in every 5 years. Unless revenue sharing is implemented.
Manchester United have won 12 of the last 19 Premier League titles. Arsenal and Chelsea won 6 of the other 7.
You forgot Liverpool.
But to get back to the matter at hand: Imagine Sweden or Denmark did NOT have a developed football culture, and wanted to start one up - it might raise awareness and attract vievers to have United, Chelsea and Arsenal come and play in the league - at first. All the people that followed the english competition would love to see them participate in a more local setting.
But why would local sponsors find that interesting in the long run? Sponsors that the local clubs would need to finance their talent and club development if they were to hope for some day matching the guests from the established and way better league. I could see it not being so. If the local talent is constantly placing as 4ths, 5ths or worse, wheres the attraction of the sponsors?
Now, the disparity on the SC2 scene is not ALL that bad. And the viever base might have VERY little interest in anything but the top level play. It is obviously its own scenario.
And as pointed out in the example above, inviting the best players in the world to compete locally might indeed boost the local scene and generate interest.
But the impact of it on the long term growth of the scene locally is something that should at least be considered.
You can disagree with Catz. But he should not be ridiculed for bringing it up. It is a very valid concern and discussion.
Worthy of a more deliberated contribution than "You are just afraid. Get better".
I suspect that the low interest in lower tier tournaments to some extent has to do with them being so fragmented/happenstance. Most people have no relation to them, because the reason for them means nothing to the potential spectator. "If they are not deciding whos is the best of the best, why should I care?". Those tournaments mainly are of interest to the players, hardly anyone else.
There needs to be something more than money on the line. Even at the lower level. Especially at the lower level I would say.
Imagine a EU/NA equivalent of KESPA organising local tournaments from the ground up.
City > County > State > National tournaments/Pro circuit. All of sudden you would have players at a much more dispersed level range being relatable and being known to viewers and potential sponsors in the corresponding sphere. You would have staggered goals, instead of being the best or noone.
Even in solo sports like tennis and golf a lot of the players have risen out of similar amateur tournament structures - if I am not mistaken.
Let me finish by stating that there are obvious holes and problems with every comparison made in the above. I acknowledge that.
But its worth having a discussion about it that is a little more nuanced than "Get better.". Because I fail to see how that will push our favourite hobby towards getting the kind of coverage and exposure we would like for it to get.
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On June 18 2011 08:15 Bombmk wrote:
You forgot Liverpool.
Liverpool have won 0 of the last 19 titles.
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On June 18 2011 08:19 Yaotzin wrote:Liverpool have won 0 of the last 19 titles.
Thank you. ;D
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On June 18 2011 06:50 coL.CatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 05:58 QTIP. wrote:
Catz:
You mention the financial struggles of trying to be an improving progamer here in the US, but you made the voluntary choice to start ROOT from scratch. I don't know the full details, (so I'll try to avoid saying something incorrect) but as we saw from it's recent acquisition by Complexity -- it's extremely hard to support your own progaming team financially and be a top competitive player at the same time.
I think this is true in Korea as well. By undertaking the challenge of being the founder of a new team, your willing to accept the fact that a good chunk of your time will be tied up in things that have nothing to do with playing sc2.
Look at oGstheWind. By being the coach, he understands that he has let his days as a comptitive player have left him. Look at oGsSpunky, another top player in the beta. He strictly handles the business side of oGs now. At a certain point, you need to realize that you wanted to start something amazing in ROOT, and I for one wish you succeeded, but you can't honestly expect to be as good of a gamer as you could of been. This is just the way it is. It has nothing to do with Koreans coming over and supposedly 'hampering' the ESPORTS growth in the US. Didn't you hear recently that TSL is one of the very few teams with salaried players? The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
yeah as i've said repeatedly, this is not about myself, im not speaking on my behalf, as I mentioned plenty of times before in this thread, even if everything I hoped for happened, my chances to win anything in my current shape are slim. Im talking about Esports in general and its growth in this hemisphere, not about me making more $
So it's well and easy to say "I want esports to be bigger" yada yada, but you've offered zero solutions. Saying 'there should be regional tournaments with big prizes' is not a solution, as people have already pointed out that regional tournaments simply aren't as big/popular and thus do not attract the viewership needed for big prizes.
You don't seem to understand that things have a cause and effect. MLG Columbus was big. If you magically said all Koreans were banned, it wouldn't have been as big. So your solution of banning Koreans from events doesn't solve anything. You basically bring up a problem and propose no good solutions, and that is the issue at hand.
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yeah as i've said repeatedly, this is not about myself, im not speaking on my behalf, as I mentioned plenty of times before in this thread, even if everything I hoped for happened, my chances to win anything in my current shape are slim. Im talking about Esports in general and its growth in this hemisphere, not about me making more $
I'm sorry, but in the weeks prior to MLG, Idra said he was practicing 3 hours a week. And (although Scoots is free to correct me) his management must have been fine with that. I don't think they are alone in that regard. I don't see how you can even begin to build an argument around "the practice they get is better than the practice we get" when our top pros are not even practicing nearly as much as theirs. If you want to prove it is an infrastructure issue and not an effort one you need to first meet that effort.
You don't see the korean pros casting,coaching, or messing around on streams. If foreign pros want to subsidize their income with those things they need to be willing to accept the consequences and lose the prize money to players who invest their time into practicing instead of PR (don't even need to use koreans here, look at Thorzain and Naniwa). You seem to think foreign pros deserve both, prize money and spending time on PR, they don't.
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On June 18 2011 03:16 crms wrote:i feel really bad for that guy lol. also makes me kinda ;/ towards ret, flying some random girl out to EU that he just met that's hooked up with multiple people that weekend? mergh.. seems desperate.
Why should we feel bad about the guy? Instead, we should be happy for the guy who got cheated on multiple times because it's better to find out now that his ex was a cheating whore and avoid further and future emotional scars.
He escaped a bullet there tbh.
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I like CatZ and I understand his position on the matter but I think the OP does a bad job defending him or “trying to explain his argument”. Quite in fact I think he or she is doing the opposite.
Remember he, himself, is Peruvian, competing in the USA.
What does that mean? To exemplify your statement this is like “I can be Latino but I am racist against black people”. Hate to break it to you but this is still racism. I could have an argument like this:
More Peruvian people in esports =more foreign people in general
More foreign people in general= More competition
More Competition=More chances of nationals losing to foreigners.
Therefore
More Peruvian people = More chances of nationals losing to foriegners.
This faulty, generalized "logic" also applies both ways, ironically.
A simple economical formula that most students know:
GDP=C+I+G+(X-M)
What CatZ is talking about is the "(X-M)" part which stands for net exports. It is the diffrence of export versus import. When import is higher than export (money leaks) GDP is smaller. If consumers buy more foreign products than local ones, net export is negative. In other words, buying goods from a foreign country fuels money to that country's economy, while your country gets into shit financial situation if this phenomena is en masse.
Here's a real world example, one that was given to me by a macroeconomics proffesor in my university, an example that is very relevant to me.
Lithuania joined the European Union. The small(er) business here were bought out by foreign competitors. The products that people buy are often products of foreign companies. This makes import high and export low. If this negative isn‘t compesated by other factos in the formula the national debt is piling up as net export remains negative. That‘s where This leads to huge economical tendencies that I won't go into about.
Now imagine that different countries are different Starcraft e-sports scenes with a completely free trading market. The growing "western" and the "already-developed" korean scene. The western scene is developing and is starting to create some revenue, however the korean scene, which is already big, competes for the same money. Money is leaked from the western scene into the korean scene via prize pool (as korean players are better financed, received better conditions and training for years, while western players could only do this as a hobby). It is natural for the korean scene to dwarf the underdeveloped western scene. A korean winning a foreign tournament means more money for korean e-sports. If a korean stays and competes in North America, he is part of THAT scene. This is why CatZ does not oppose koreans STAYING to compete in NA tournaments. Stricly speaking the „already developed“ scene would suck funds out of the „developing“ one. This is why Koreans winning foreign tournaments can be POTENTIALLY bad for foreign eSports.
Granted, this is only pize pool money we‘re talking about. It is also unfair to say that all of the money will remain in one particular scene, afterall there is a fair trade going on between the two. However, you have to admit the point remains valid.
Being an economist myself, I can tell you the macro example you provide to defend CatZ argument is poor if not invalid. Countries can choose, economically speaking, between having a deficit or a surplus for their country. Both of these have intertemporal effects on the current and future status of a country. That’s the whole reason of X>M or X<M. Keep in mind this is one of the most simplistic macro models.E-Sports is not the same because we aren’t buying/selling players, we are increasing competition and I can tell you that many economists under the ceteris paribus assumption will agree that more competition is better.
Sure some money goes to the player and the team. However, more competition, more matches and more players. This increases viewership to both domestic and international viewers. More viewership translates into more popularity which translates into more money gain from sponsors and more money gained from ads, should the event involve ads. This is better for E-Sports as a whole, ceteris paribus.
CatZ logic is pretty much the same grudge a few Americans hold against Latinos for “job stealing”. If somebody is willing to work harder for less money than you, he or she should get the job. Going back e-sports, Korea is a very collectivist society that translates into more dedication to status quo patterns. Ergo, this dedication creates proficiency over time that allows players to do better and thus excel at this game.
So now that you put it this way, an argument could be “Let’s not have Brazilian team in the World Cup because some of the money will go back to Brazil instead of staying in the country that is hosting the World cup” Many other examples exist in the media.
Also its professor not proffesor . I think your macroeconomics professor would be ashamed of this post. 
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Yes, it's real according to reddit.
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Yes, it's real according to reddit.
WTF does this have anything to do with the conversation at hand? I don't agree with Catz but slandering him with this stupid shit is deplorable.
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On June 18 2011 10:54 Duravi wrote:WTF does this have anything to do with the conversation at hand? I don't agree with Catz but slandering him with this stupid shit is deplorable.
For that I do feel sorry for the guy but it was best he found out. Slandering him on that, well you can't really he didn't do anything wrong there. Not the bfs fault just the girl likes to go around.
To the point if your going to slander him do it for the right reasons.
I seriously think he should have re thought or reworded what he said because to me and most of the people in this thread agrees that his statement is quite the bs and I can def agree.
At least if your going to give an excuse give a excuse that's reasonable with proof or evidence. I found the info shit to be all over the friggen place and not making any sense. His argument is ridiculous, so ridiculous I find and stupid and making him look like a fool.
As everyone has stated in this thread, we even got people saying their economist and stating his quote stupid as F$%^ lol. And I stated this not because I love korean players I have tons of foreigner favorites like idra, whitera, jinro, huk and the list goes on.
Every reply Catz has made, I don't even know if this guy has a brain lol. Arguing and trying to prove something without research and analysis is brainless.
Catz maybe it's time to train 5-8 hours a day or more and improve your game instead of putting out a stupid ass statement.
For all who disagree read the whole thread before you reply
Thank you and have a nice day ^^
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On June 18 2011 10:47 Daiki wrote:Yes, it's real according to reddit.
That guy really needs to learn to man up and deal with his own problems rather than imploring the internet to publicly degrade those who wrong him. Yes he could have been totally in the right in that situation(Keep in mind we're only dealing with one side of the story.), but he threw away any validity from that argument by farming out his anger to the Reddit community, which happens to have a pretty large population of misogynistic, "nice guys" who are happy to eat this sort of story up to fuel their hate for, "whores".
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On June 18 2011 11:08 gosu86 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 10:54 Duravi wrote:Yes, it's real according to reddit. WTF does this have anything to do with the conversation at hand? I don't agree with Catz but slandering him with this stupid shit is deplorable. For that I do feel sorry for the guy but it was best he found out. Slandering him on that, well you can't really he didn't do anything wrong there. Not the bfs fault just the girl likes to go around. To the point if your going to slander him do it for the right reasons. I seriously think he should have re thought or reworded what he said because to me and most of the people in this thread agrees that his statement is quite the bs and I can def agree. At least if your going to give an excuse give a excuse that's reasonable with proof or evidence. I found the info shit to be all over the friggen place and not making any sense. His argument is ridiculous, so ridiculous I find and stupid and making him look like a fool. As everyone has stated in this thread, we even got people saying their economist and stating his quote stupid as F$%^ lol. And I stated this not because I love korean players I have tons of foreigner favorites like idra, whitera, jinro, huk and the list goes on. Every reply Catz has made, I don't even know if this guy has a brain lol. Arguing and trying to prove something without research and analysis is brainless. Catz maybe it's time to train 5-8 hours a day or more and improve your game instead of putting out a stupid ass statement. For all who disagree read the whole thread before you reply Thank you and have a nice day ^^
You're actually degrading the quality of the argument you support with this post. If English isn't your first language I apologize for coming down on you too hard, but really consider reading your post before you make it. Portions of this are either somewhat incomprehensible or unnecessarily vitriolic.
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EPT
