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Here's what it all boils down to imo:
Catz is afraid of the Koreans. He's afraid of the time commitment, the risk, the potential payoff, and is weighing his concerns vs. a better paying career. Obviously, he just doesn't have enough passion for making it in esports to tough it out. There are struggling athletes in all sports just scrapping by. They go undrafted. They become tennis instructors or little league coaches. They join some random foreign country's league. They could have done something else with their lives. What about the 95% of SC2 wannabe pros in Korea? There's much heavier competition to even make it on a team. I doubt someone like Catz would have gotten picked up from their ladder. A lot of them still depend on their parents or are scrapping by and barely subsisting.
No, I have no sympathy for someone like Catz.
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On June 18 2011 02:23 Ownos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:39 namedplayer wrote:On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote:
All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money. does it really hurts? There are bunch of small tournaments that koreans can't participate in. Foreigners are earning more money than most of koreans because of that. also Foreigners teach, Foreigners earn salary, Foreigners get better sponsors. Are they practicing harder than Koreans? no. Are they better than Koreans? no. Are they earning more money than Koreans? Hell yeah. even Korean SC2 reporters admitted that. Foreigners has better environment in terms of income. This is 100% false. The top earners are all still Korean. The only people to earn almost as much as them is Sjow/WhiteRa by winning 1st in several smaller tournaments. Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 01:11 SidianTheBard wrote:On June 17 2011 12:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:
basically I see this as catz arguing that all non north americans should be excluded from the NASL to promote the north american scene which is a backwards argument in itself. Without the highest level of competition it's gonna produce much less revenue, and much less prize money. QFT. Right now there aren't many NA players that I want to watch play because when you compare them to higher level players they just aren't good at all. I wonder how many people tune into NASL just to see Foreigners play. For instance, I've always watched Drewbie when he streamed, he was fun to watch, he'd talk to his viewers and produce interesting games. During NASL though I don't care to watch his games because he won't be there commentating or having a fun time and if he's not doing that he won't get my attention because I don't think he is one of the top-level terrans in the world. Instead I'd rather watch NaDa because he is one of the best and most consistent sc2 terrans so far. If the best of the best aren't in a tournament, who cares. There are tons of low level tournaments that get run weekly and they probably always have at most 1k viewers and that's just because it's a bunch of no-name players that people don't really care for. They only get the 1k viewers because they have that 1 random good player that everybody wants to watch. If NASL didn't have Korean/Foreigner players I feel it wouldn't die off, it just wouldn't be racking in the 10k+ viewers it does everytime it streams. Also 100% false. IPL has NA players only and doubled NASL's viewership each time they were on together.
That's because NASL stream sucks and the tournament is poorly conceived and run. People lost interest after the initial excitement.
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On June 18 2011 00:07 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 00:04 primebeef wrote:On June 17 2011 23:47 Tobberoth wrote:On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote:
I disagree with Catz completely.
GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL.
If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best.
Stop complaining and practice more.
That's the harsh reality.
By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best.
I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans.
In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans. You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP. Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online? Just do this mind exercise and you will understand: Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament. Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game. ^^ OSL and MSL in BW is still going on and it always has the top 10 players in the world playing at every single tournament and it has lasted for a while. It's not about region, he is mentioning koreans exclusivly he isn't talking about players from europe or the rest of asia, or any of the other continents. OSL and MSL indeed... and how many new players do you see in the BW scene? How prolific is BW esport outside of Korea? Exactly. And while he does focus a lot on koreans specifically in that video, he also brings up the european tournament and says it's a good thing, and that's against both NA and Korea. Just like in soccer, there are non-swedish people playing in the clubs, but they have moved to sweden and are working for the club. It's not that simple in SC2 where as long as you have a computer, internet and is awake at the right time, you can join every single tournament you want.
BW never made it outside of korea because gaming wasn't as big of a culture back then, and when BW first came out it was made popular in korea because they needed a cheap source of entertainment in a bad economy, and PC bangs were cheap, so eventually people started to get addicted and many dropped out of school to play this game, and eventually it became big and it gained a lot of presteige. By that time, you have a bunch of gamers who plays hours and hours everyday competeing against people who played it for fun and entered tournaments, and just got sweeped.
Now in SC2, its a fresh game different from BW and you now have foreigners who have taken up the occupation of actually becoming a progamer. The skill levels aren't much different, and progaming is now actually an occupation outside of Korea.
The thing is the people want the growth of e-sports, but do you want to watch people who pour their heart and soul into the game and give up practiacally everything compete or would your rather see some randoms that half asses their practice and play then get sweeped and complain.
Here's an example : a person that puts in 10-12 hours a day vs a genius who doesnt put in any time, the genius could win at first, but eventually the person who puts forward the effort will surpass the genius.
On the other hand, a Genius who puts forward the effort vs a non genius who doesn't put in the effort will always stay on top.
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On June 18 2011 01:39 out4blood wrote:
CatZ arguments are all very childish and do nothing to promote esports.
World-class competitive athletes got that way because they love to compete. They always want to challenge themselves to be the best. To be the best, you've got to beat the best. I find it hard to believe a competitive player would say, "I don't want to play against the best."
Economic arguments being made are actually backwards. People aren't going to pay big bucks to see 3rd rate talent. They are only going to pay big bucks to see the big leagues. Money doesn't create talent. It rewards talent. Talent comes from hard work and dedication and only pure desire to be the best will sustain you.
Totally agree
His reply is nonsense. In e-sports general for example I am a fps fan also so I also watch a lot of the bigger tournaments and if his idea he imposed it would be ridiculous and this goes for all online games. For me anyways I always want to see the best compete with the best.
I was not a big fan of catz nor I disliked them but with this posting I have lost all respect for catz.
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Their are two type of Foreign players.
1)Those who are very serious about the game and can beat Koreans.
2) Those who are good at the game but not as serious. These can't beat Koreans.
I personally feel Catz falls under 2, and so do alot of foreigners like Lz, Incontrol, Slush, etc. These guys are amazing players, and can occasionally take a Game off of top Koreans. But they aren't really the best. They made a good name by playing lots of small tournaments.
People like Jinro, Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain, Morrow, Huk. Can put the hurt on Koreans. Catz is just complaining because as long as Koreans participate his performance will never excel because he's simply not at their level. Thats understandable being that he wants to make a living. Sadly people want the best, and you can't have the best without Koreans.
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On June 17 2011 23:47 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote:
I disagree with Catz completely.
GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL.
If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best.
Stop complaining and practice more.
That's the harsh reality.
By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best.
I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans.
In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans. You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP. Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online? Just do this mind exercise and you will understand: Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament. Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game.
And you've failed to understand reality completely. 'Bigger' tournaments still requires revenue. Revenue comes from viewership and sponsorship (and sponsorship comes from viewership as well.) Viewership/sponsorship comes from interest in the tournament, which thus comes from the level of competition.
Would it be nice if every tourney had a $10k prize pool, including my local Seattle tournament? Sure. But welcome to reality, where MLG would not have been nearly as big without Koreans participating, and certainly not as big without Koreans OR Europeans participating (people are forgetting that regional doesn't just mean no Koreans at MLG, it means NO EUROPEANS TOO.)
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Playing better people will in turn make you better. Sure you can play people around your skill level and have a fun time, but will you improve nearly as fast? Probably not. I love having Korean players (not only because I'm Korean) because they're very entertaining to watch and you can see the hours upon hours of practice and work paying off.
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I don't really think the explanation really changes much. Tournaments will invite players who bring them the most interest and revenue. Fans will pay based on whoever has the most interest, or the most interesting event. As much as this was made to be an economic discussion, I feel like this basic economic fact is plainly ignored in the original post and by Catz.
I think any gaps between the Korean and non-Korean scenes can be filled by the escalation that goes with competition. Players constantly get better in virtually every way, competition gets much harder. What needs to happen that didn't happen enough in BW is foreign interest to be similar to Korean interest. A big part of that is actually competing directly with Koreans, in my opinion.
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i feel really bad for that guy lol.
also makes me kinda ;/ towards ret, flying some random girl out to EU that he just met that's hooked up with multiple people that weekend? mergh.. seems desperate.
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It's the american players that takes your money CatZ. Koreans shouldn't be punished for dedicating themselves more to the game than any other nation.
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You don't need to beat koreans to get laid?
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On June 18 2011 02:23 Ownos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:39 namedplayer wrote:On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote:
All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money. does it really hurts? There are bunch of small tournaments that koreans can't participate in. Foreigners are earning more money than most of koreans because of that. also Foreigners teach, Foreigners earn salary, Foreigners get better sponsors. Are they practicing harder than Koreans? no. Are they better than Koreans? no. Are they earning more money than Koreans? Hell yeah. even Korean SC2 reporters admitted that. Foreigners has better environment in terms of income. This is 100% false. The top earners are all still Korean. The only people to earn almost as much as them is Sjow/WhiteRa by winning 1st in several smaller tournaments. Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 01:11 SidianTheBard wrote:On June 17 2011 12:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:
basically I see this as catz arguing that all non north americans should be excluded from the NASL to promote the north american scene which is a backwards argument in itself. Without the highest level of competition it's gonna produce much less revenue, and much less prize money. QFT. Right now there aren't many NA players that I want to watch play because when you compare them to higher level players they just aren't good at all. I wonder how many people tune into NASL just to see Foreigners play. For instance, I've always watched Drewbie when he streamed, he was fun to watch, he'd talk to his viewers and produce interesting games. During NASL though I don't care to watch his games because he won't be there commentating or having a fun time and if he's not doing that he won't get my attention because I don't think he is one of the top-level terrans in the world. Instead I'd rather watch NaDa because he is one of the best and most consistent sc2 terrans so far. If the best of the best aren't in a tournament, who cares. There are tons of low level tournaments that get run weekly and they probably always have at most 1k viewers and that's just because it's a bunch of no-name players that people don't really care for. They only get the 1k viewers because they have that 1 random good player that everybody wants to watch. If NASL didn't have Korean/Foreigner players I feel it wouldn't die off, it just wouldn't be racking in the 10k+ viewers it does everytime it streams. Also 100% false. IPL has NA players only and doubled NASL's viewership each time they were on together.
hard to say though, NASL possibly has less viewership because:
1. It is pool stage right now, and there's so many games that it gets boring after a while.
2. IPL I feel at least, has way better production value and better commentators (although I'm really not a big fan of TotalBiscuit.).
Also. To be honest, even if Koreans and Europeans weren't in the tournament, I still don't think CatZ would place in Top 5.
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Quote: Also. To be honest, even if Koreans and Europeans weren't in the tournament, I still don't think CatZ would place in Top 5. EndQuote
IPL Season 1 results.
IPL Season 1 Brackets
NASL results.
Division 4
1. (Z)Ret 8-1 (16-4)
2. (T)SeleCT 7-2 (16-5)
3. (P)Ace 7-2 (15-8)
4. (P)MC 6-2 (12-8)
5. (P)HasuObs 5-4 (12-11)
6. (T)BRAT_OK 4-5 (10-12)
7. (T)Stalife 3-6 (9-13)
8. (T)GoOdy 2-7 (7-16)
8. (Z)Machine 2-7 (7-16)
10.(Z)CatZ 1-8 (7-16)
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I agree with Catz, although I think we need both things. For example I think the NASL is fine with many Koreans but I also think they should have additional leagues that are only for the USA.
I think that the NASL is clearly not a "North American" only league despite the name. I think the NASL should still have invites from Europe and Korea in order to remain an ELITE league!
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On June 17 2011 19:08 don_kyuhote wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote:
I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged. You don't have to feel like you can win the tournament to work hard. Not every 32 teams in the World cup thinks they can win it, but they all have a goal, be it round of 16, quarterfinal or others. Set a goal, and train and work towards it!
Exactly. It's about pride as a player and the inner competitor in each individual that should drive them to work hard. Those that succeed are those that get motivation from within and the desire to be at the top. if someone has to incentivise you the whole way, then this isn't the right career to pursue.
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Is this for real? lol
anyone have the tl link?
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On June 18 2011 04:57 Okasai wrote:Quote: Also. To be honest, even if Koreans and Europeans weren't in the tournament, I still don't think CatZ would place in Top 5. EndQuote IPL Season 1 results. IPL Season 1 BracketsNASL results. Division 4 1. (Z)Ret 8-1 (16-4) 2. (T)SeleCT 7-2 (16-5) 3. (P)Ace 7-2 (15-8) 4. (P)MC 6-2 (12-8) 5. (P)HasuObs 5-4 (12-11) 6. (T)BRAT_OK 4-5 (10-12) 7. (T)Stalife 3-6 (9-13) 8. (T)GoOdy 2-7 (7-16) 8. (Z)Machine 2-7 (7-16) 10.(Z)CatZ 1-8 (7-16)
Perhaps you'd like to include past MLGs too where CatZ didn't even make it out of the open bracket. And I'm not just talking about this time where he was against July and there was that whole no-show disqual. Other times too he hasn't made it out. l o l.
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EPT
