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On June 18 2011 00:18 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 00:12 Psychobabas wrote:On June 17 2011 22:07 Maliris wrote:On June 17 2011 21:54 Psychobabas wrote:On June 17 2011 21:46 simansh wrote:
In my opinion the "pros" in the west just need to try harder. Don't live in the future, but in the now. If they don't have as much dedication as the korean progamers do now, then when will they? And try harder for what? For the next MC or MMA to get half the prize pool? Catz is completely spot on. He has the balls to say what most are thinking but are too scared of being flamed. Lol? Koreans competing internationally is good for everybody - makes the game more entertaining to watch and makes the game more competitive. You realise no one makes their money solely off prize money outside korea? it is too unreliable to do so (ask pretty much any pro). salary + streaming + content funds it That doesnt mean much. Might as well invite Barcelona and Manchester United to compete in the Korean Football league. It sure would make it entertaining and competitive wouldnt it. But I have a feeling the Korean teams would get a bit upset... My view is: It's too soon to invite Korean progamers. Let the western leagues build up first. We can talk about global esports when its worth talking about it. Inviting Koreans to NASL/MLG etc is like inviting Barca and United to an invite-only Champion's League. A competition that aims to offer high quality games with the best players around. Inviting Barca/United to the Korean league would be like inviting Koreans to the EPS. Which doesn't happen.
Which is why NASL should change their name, since they aren't a north american league, they are an international invite-championship.
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Catz raises some very good points.
In my view there are two major factors as to why outsiders travelling to participate in tournaments is bad for the growth of pro-gaming.
1. They train outside of the country (obviously) and this hurts the general growth of skill in that country. What I mean by that is that IM/Slayers/etc. do not pariticipate in the EG masters cup for example. Players from these teams do not get to compete with each other on a regular basis. The outsiders just turn up to attempt to collect a prize pool without actually investing or adding anything to that particular scene. This in the long term would be bad for NA/EU players.
2. Sponsorship. It divides the value for alot of sponsors in supporting tournaments/teams. Take for example Stride Gum, can you buy that in Korea? Even in Europe? So sponsoring an event were the key demographic is divided between nations and continents makes it a considerably less lucrative investment. Which means less pro players, which over time will further reduce the average skill of higher level players.
Its not all "the Koreans own the white dudes", these situations will have a lasting impact and could be extremely detrimental to the growth of pro-gaming.
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On June 18 2011 00:12 Casablancas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 23:36 Tobberoth wrote:
I think Catz is spot on. Football in Sweden is also a great example, it's a HUGE sport which a ton of people engage in. But seriously, who would give a crap about MFF, AIK etc if amazing teams from champions league etc was in allsvenskan? The whole point is that the league is interesting because it's just swedish clubs playing, it's NOT interesting because the best players and teams in the world are there. If all leagues had the best teams, what would be the point of having any soccer at all in Sweden?
A young soccer loving dude in Sweden can work hard and do his best and can easily support himself professionally from playing in a swedish club in allsvenskan. He doesn't have to be good enough to be in the world cup to work with what he loves. And it's an amazing thing for the sport.
THAT is what Catz want for SC2, and I think it sounds great. But who wouldnt rather watch Champions League than Allsvenskan? Everyone, including Swedes if Swedish teams qualified. However both leagues co exist.
You can use a different variation of the same argument. What if the Champions League format changed and England had pulled so far away that all teams in the Champions League were English teams, would that be a good thing for soccer outside England?
But what you said kind of sums up a lot of the arguments in this thread. Most want to watch the big international competitions in any sport and in sc2 there is probably not enough interest for national leagues other than the GSL at the moment.
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I consider myself a spectator since i watch more pros competing then playing myself . I don't know what other people think but for myself I'm draw to tournaments with Korean American European all participate in. This is the reason why i never any European weekly cups. Watching the Korean winning the MLG is like watching the European winning the TSL make no difference. I personally feel it's the mindset of players like catz that is dragging NA behind.
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I would lose interest if ONLY NA players would play because the games that will play are at a lower level then i know it can be. Also i don't belive that NA players don't grow if koreans was to play in MLG and NASL.. NA need to catch up and make prohouses with trainers because blocking out the koreans will just lower quality of the product and make starcraft 2 overall less populare wich will affect negative on the marked and the will make the players worse..
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On June 18 2011 00:26 lazyfeet wrote:
I consider myself a spectator since i watch more pros competing then playing myself . I don't know what other people think but for myself I'm draw to tournaments with Korean American European all participate in. This is the reason why i never any European weekly cups. Watching the Korean winning the MLG is like watching the European winning the TSL make no difference. I personally feel it's the mindset of players like catz that is dragging NA behind.
I would say it's the other way around. The reason EU has so many good players is because of those "local" EU cups. EU players can meet eachother competitively and be motivated in tournaments where a code S korean won't come and stomp on everyone.
Do they have a huge amount of spectators? No, but again, this is about players and growth of esports, but about what spectators find most exciting, which we already know is big international bouts.
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On June 17 2011 23:41 Gurgl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 23:34 Dizz wrote:
What if a U.S. NBA team got seeded into a foreign country's basketball league playoffs and won the whole thing. I'd imagine that would turn a lot of people off in that country, and if it kept happening, they'd stop watching. The Olympics and all international competitions have their place, and so doesn't national competitions. I want to watch both kinds of competitions in SC2 and Korean invites are killing the latter.
Just my .02. If a NBA team played in the Swedish basketball league I can promise you that noone here would whine about it and it would be great for the sport in Sweden. Basketball isn´t big here but it would get alot of attention. Noone is preventing anyone from making national Starcraft leagues, go ahead and do it if you think it´s a great business opportunity. NASL and other leagues will do what they think is in their best interest.
Television screening would make more money, stadiums organising events would get more money. Clubs would get less money, because they would be 1 place behind always. A lot of buzz around new players in teams would gone, everyone would just report how NBA team is doing.
Players would get less money and be less motivated to train.
I think that CatZ has perfect point, Its like matchmaking.. I don't want to play against master and GM players (i'm platinum), because I will get frustrated loosing. And if there would be money involved.. than no way I would play.
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Didn't we already have a N.A tournament that most people didn't care about because the level of competition was too low? I believe it was called IPL season 1.
I think the ratings of IPL season 1 vs 2 will show the real "demand" for regional tournaments.
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On June 17 2011 22:27 gosu86 wrote:
I think it was a stupid explanation and heres my reason
I pay for tournaments for the best players! Plain and simple. I wouldn't have bought a mlg pass if there were no koreans. I'm not saying people either than koreans suck but some of the best games I have seen are from koreans.
I've lost all respect to catz
want to win money train harder and terrible excuse just terrible
Pretty much...im not interested in watching second rate talent it makes for boring games. I would never pay a dollar to watch an NA only league when I know theres much better players to see in Korea and even Europe. Take the IPL for example. Amazing production values but quite boring game wise...Idra beating up on a bunch of average players with 2-3 big names involved. People would seriously pay money to see that? Now IPL 2 looks much more interesting with Euros involved.
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On June 18 2011 00:29 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 00:26 lazyfeet wrote:
I consider myself a spectator since i watch more pros competing then playing myself . I don't know what other people think but for myself I'm draw to tournaments with Korean American European all participate in. This is the reason why i never any European weekly cups. Watching the Korean winning the MLG is like watching the European winning the TSL make no difference. I personally feel it's the mindset of players like catz that is dragging NA behind. I would say it's the other way around. The reason EU has so many good players is because of those "local" EU cups. EU players can meet eachother competitively and be motivated in tournaments where a code S korean won't come and stomp on everyone. Do they have a huge amount of spectators? No, but again, this is about players and growth of esports, but about what spectators find most exciting, which we already know is big international bouts.
Then NA can set up their own local weekly cups to develop their players. I doubt the Koreans would want to wake up in the middle of the night to play a bunch of games for barely any prize money.
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On June 18 2011 00:16 Tobberoth wrote:
Great example, proving my point in a post disagreeing. Cricket is a frickin tiny sport in Sweden, no one plays cricket unless they really really love the sport and plan to move somewhere it's played eventually. If you actually could make money of it, if there were proper swedish tournaments in cricket, I'm sure it would have a buttload more swedish players.
But people are not interested in cricket. though no viewership an so on. You cant build up a good sport league only with money. Why should anybody gives money to them. only in the hope that in the future they get more money back, what it is very unlikely.
NASL wants to become a big tournament, sure. But maybe it SHOULD be the NORTH AMERICAN star league. Maybe koreans should be more than welcome, as long as they actually commit and go to the US?
It's up to NASL of course, but the point in this discussion is what's good for esports, not for current spectators and the pockets of the people behind NASL.
If you make NASL as a online tournement why you have to go USA.I am pretty sure NASL would be consinded as a weak tournment without Koreans. If you want regional Tournment with 100k winning pool with sub-par players you only need someone to pay for. It seems there is no one willing to pay. If you really wants seprated league than you need an association, where only registred players can participate and so on. You need a much better infrastructure but nowadays the tournement organizer choose the player who play for the prize pool and their interest is to become a well accepted Tourney and not to feed some sub par player.
By the way to one hinders NA-People to bulid something up like the Euros with the ESL. But it pretty lame from catz that he thinks the NASL Sponsors should trust if the competition is much lower so that even some like him can win than suddenly the NASL would be much better.
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In my opinion there is an easy solution to this problem.
The reason you don't see a TON of foreigners heading to Korea to compete in GSL is because you effectively take yourself away from all of the other tournaments. That’s because GSL you have to PHYSICALLY take your seat to participate. Unlike some other tournaments like NASL (season) or TSL 3 (before championship bracket). If foreigners could compete up until the RO4 from their seats at home they would.
Foreigners are going to continue to snipe MLG because it’s only a 1 weekend tournament and takes very little time compared to GSL. IF NASL or IGN would make their tournaments require taking a seat in a LAN setting rather than playing from their homes not as many Koreans would be participating, they would have to MOVE out WEST in order to compete just like Jinro/Huk had to move to Korea.
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Doesn't the prizepool represent only a small fraction of the circulating money ?
I mean, MMA, Losira, MC and July are going to MLG, they won 10000$ total prizepool. Didn't they bring a lot more than that to MLG ? How many fans came to MLG and paid the 25$ entry only to see July ?
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Loe catZ, but clearly he's scared of the Koreans. If the Koreans were terrible at SC2, would this video still have been made? The Koreans are beasts at this game, so I don't blame him for feeling this way. As a spectator, I don't care if I'm watching americans fight koreans, men fighting women, young players fighting older players. I just want to see the best.
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On June 18 2011 00:29 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 00:26 lazyfeet wrote:
I consider myself a spectator since i watch more pros competing then playing myself . I don't know what other people think but for myself I'm draw to tournaments with Korean American European all participate in. This is the reason why i never any European weekly cups. Watching the Korean winning the MLG is like watching the European winning the TSL make no difference. I personally feel it's the mindset of players like catz that is dragging NA behind. I would say it's the other way around. The reason EU has so many good players is because of those "local" EU cups. EU players can meet eachother competitively and be motivated in tournaments where a code S korean won't come and stomp on everyone. Do they have a huge amount of spectators? No, but again, this is about players and growth of esports, but about what spectators find most exciting, which we already know is big international bouts.
You forgot that the korean already played the dreamhack twice and iem final and did pretty well in europe. Is the korean participating in the NA or Euro weekly cups? There is alot of online tournaments with good prize like IGN pro league EG master series with no Korean playing. Isn't better that instead of asking Korean not to compete in big lan events, Catz should ask all the NA based tournament organizer STOP ASKING the European to play in their small to mid level size online tournaments. Cause the euopean players wins all the NA tournaments.
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Seems like a long-winded and contrived attempt to explain things that could be stated in fewer and more obvious words.
I doubt he was thinking about net exports or Lithuania and the European Union when he thought about the idea of Koreans playing in the NASL (seriously? lmao!!). He's primarily a StarCraft 2 player trying to win tournaments and make money, not an economics researcher.
This is just taking the idea of "I don't like Koreans in the NASL" and trying to come up with whatever you can to support it. Weak arguments at best.
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I love at this like any other sport that I watch. Here's an analogy. I watch basketball and football because I love watching certain teams play. Maybe they aren't the best but they are entertaining, it doesn't matter who they are paired up against its still enjoyable to me. Some people say they want to see the best play, well then watch GSL if you think the Koreans are the best. I would like to take this discussion to two extremes. Let's say there is nobody but Koreans in the NASL, how does it look are an American eSport then? Also, lets look at chess for example. Everyone wanted to see Kasprov beat Deep Blue, but no one wants to watch Deep Blue crush Kasprov every chess match.
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Some remarks on your economical point (GDP=C+I+G+(X-M) applied to SC2).
1. In your formula, the GDP is in currency, usually the dollar. And it's the same when you apply it to Sc2. However i personnally wouldn't agree that we're looking for more or less dollars in the scene, Sc2 -even considered as a sport- is a spectacle before everything else. And having good spectacles is not only linked with tons of money.
2. Even if X-M is negative when the koreans are coming, how does it weight relatively to the rest of the formula ? I mean, even if the koreans were taking some thousands of dollars, let's say something like 200 000$ a year, is it really that much compared to the money in the foreign scene. Relate this to the first point, and we can wonder if it's really a problem for us to have koreans taking a small percentage of our earnings.
3. Having a negative trade balance is not always a problem, it is sometimes necessary. A modern economy cannot produce any goods without importations of raw materials or fuels. That's a problem only if the deficit is huge and/or for a long time.
4. As it have been said, koreans bring hype and interest to the game. If you wanna go on with economical analogy, let's say that they have a positive impact on the demand inside the foreigner scene. So there's a positive output, a growth of your GDP resulting from a greater C (people paying 20 bucks to have a nice stream), a greater I (new companies involved), and possibly a greater G (at least the chinese government gives money to Esport). The question is : is this positive output bigger than the negative X-M ?
I stop there with the theory. The fact is simple, if there were like 5 koreans to each big event (> 3/4/5-000$ prizepool, i don't have an exact number) of the foreign scene, that would be a huge problem. There are not at the moment, and it doesn't seem likely to happen shortly. Don't panic Catz, it'll be fine :D
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On June 18 2011 00:07 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 00:04 primebeef wrote:On June 17 2011 23:47 Tobberoth wrote:On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote:
I disagree with Catz completely.
GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL.
If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best.
Stop complaining and practice more.
That's the harsh reality.
By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best.
I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans.
In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans. You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP. Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online? Just do this mind exercise and you will understand: Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament. Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game. ^^ OSL and MSL in BW is still going on and it always has the top 10 players in the world playing at every single tournament and it has lasted for a while. It's not about region, he is mentioning koreans exclusivly he isn't talking about players from europe or the rest of asia, or any of the other continents. OSL and MSL indeed... and how many new players do you see in the BW scene? How prolific is BW esport outside of Korea? Exactly.
so are you saying..
tiger woods
phil mickleson
ernie ells
vijay singh
Jim Furyk
etc.
hurt golf? These are perrennial top 10 players (or were last time i followed golf) everyone expects them to do well in every single event..
Roger Federer
Rafal Nadal
Djokovich
andy roddick
etc.
are these guys hurting tennis?
These are two huge individual sports that have global appeal and both go in waves of total domination by the highest echelon until the new generation comes in. People want to watch the best players in the world, always.
Your comparison to starcraft is misguided as its such a new sport but even in the small time scale pro starcraft has been around we've had many different players go in and out of the top 10 and dominate the scene. We've had the oov years, the nada and boxer phases, yellows perrennial silver medals, saviors tear, and now the stranglehold of flash and jaedong. This is no different than Roger Federer winning damn near every major global tournament over the last 5-6 years, and tennis isn't going anywhere.
I personally feel starcraft should be built along the lines of other major individual sports with huge global tournaments allover the world. If you want to make a living sure you can probably scrape by playing local leagues, tournaments etc., but if you want to be a consumate professional you have to be talented and extremely hardworking.
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On June 18 2011 00:56 TheSasquatch wrote:
I love at this like any other sport that I watch. Here's an analogy. I watch basketball and football because I love watching certain teams play. Maybe they aren't the best but they are entertaining, it doesn't matter who they are paired up against its still enjoyable to me. Some people say they want to see the best play, well then watch GSL if you think the Koreans are the best. I would like to take this discussion to two extremes. Let's say there is nobody but Koreans in the NASL, how does it look are an American eSport then? Also, lets look at chess for example. Everyone wanted to see Kasprov beat Deep Blue, but no one wants to watch Deep Blue crush Kasprov every chess match.
I look at it like wanting to watch the CFL or arena football instead of the NFL. The second rate talent in these leagues cant make it to the big time so they compete in lesser leagues. Ur analogy of watching lesser teams doesnt really make sense cause its basically whats going on right now anyway. Crappy teams still play in the same leagues as the good teams when it comes to football or basketball. A better analogy for ur point would be that u enjoy watching less skilled teams in lesser leagues which are segregated from the big leagues. For example if u like a certain CFL or NBDL team (lol)
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EPT
