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I agree with Catz but we should take it even further. We should do what the US has done with boxing. Make a bunch of worldtitles and make sure the champions never fight eachother. This way we can have a world champion in each region and everyone is happy.
You could say but woulnt the fans know it bogus? Nahh we just hype the feck out of each champion. Make sure to use phrases like pund4pound, all time great, Hall of famer. The fans will eventually buy into all the hype and it will generate alot more money for everyone
So yea I think if we do what Catz suggest and go the way boxing has done. We all in for a good time..
So maybe Catz next title is Pound4Pound Catz
Edit: Hell we could even make weightlimits.
We could have Huk running around in the flyweight Division and Incontrol in the heavyweight division. Omg its perfect all the asian dude´s are small compared to the western people this will surdenly sort all of Catz problems.
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I disagree with Catz completely.
GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL.
If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best.
Stop complaining and practice more.
That's the harsh reality.
By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best.
I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't even mean you can beat all the North Americans.
In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans.
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On June 17 2011 23:34 Dizz wrote:
What if a U.S. NBA team got seeded into a foreign country's basketball league playoffs and won the whole thing. I'd imagine that would turn a lot of people off in that country, and if it kept happening, they'd stop watching. The Olympics and all international competitions have their place, and so doesn't national competitions. I want to watch both kinds of competitions in SC2 and Korean invites are killing the latter.
Just my .02.
If a NBA team played in the Swedish basketball league I can promise you that noone here would whine about it and it would be great for the sport in Sweden. Basketball isn´t big here but it would get alot of attention.
Noone is preventing anyone from making national Starcraft leagues, go ahead and do it if you think it´s a great business opportunity. NASL and other leagues will do what they think is in their best interest.
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On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote:
I disagree with Catz completely.
GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL.
If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best.
Stop complaining and practice more.
That's the harsh reality.
By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best.
I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans.
In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans.
You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP.
Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online?
Just do this mind exercise and you will understand:
Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament.
Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game.
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I agree with Catz, there should be tournaments for only US players, only EU players, and other foreigners AND Only Koreans, but they shouldn't be everywhere where theres money to be earned. This way foreign gamers can grow reputation, money, motivation to continue playing more in order to compete with the koreans in GLOBAL tournaments. Otherwise koreans will have all money pool available to them, train 24/7, and win all tournaments everywhere till all tournaments get closed outside korea and it becomes a korean only game again.
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On June 17 2011 23:47 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote:
I disagree with Catz completely.
GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL.
If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best.
Stop complaining and practice more.
That's the harsh reality.
By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best.
I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans.
In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans. You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP. Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online? Just do this mind exercise and you will understand: Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament. Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game.
Regional tournaments are fine. I don't think anyone has a problem with them. There isn't going to be much money in them though (just as Swedish football is relatively poor). And because overall there isn't a huge amount of money in the game (unlike football), it would be very difficult for players to survive on such a regional basis.
The big money tournaments should be for the best players, which of course is Koreans. If foreigners want to change that fact they should work to get better, not be content with wins in meaningless regional tournaments with scrubs.
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On June 17 2011 23:36 Tobberoth wrote:
I think Catz is spot on. Football in Sweden is also a great example, it's a HUGE sport which a ton of people engage in. But seriously, who would give a crap about MFF, AIK etc if amazing teams from champions league etc was in allsvenskan? The whole point is that the league is interesting because it's just swedish clubs playing, it's NOT interesting because the best players and teams in the world are there. If all leagues had the best teams, what would be the point of having any soccer at all in Sweden?
A young soccer loving dude in Sweden can work hard and do his best and can easily support himself professionally from playing in a swedish club in allsvenskan. He doesn't have to be good enough to be in the world cup to work with what he loves. And it's an amazing thing for the sport.
THAT is what Catz want for SC2, and I think it sounds great.
Don't compare Team sport with 1 vs 1 Sports. You could compare the SC2-Szene with Tennis und you can ask yourself if any sweden tennis fan ist interested in sweden only Tennis-Tourney? IF NA had an own Sc2 Pro-league then it would be other thing.
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On June 17 2011 23:50 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 23:47 Tobberoth wrote:On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote:
I disagree with Catz completely.
GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL.
If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best.
Stop complaining and practice more.
That's the harsh reality.
By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best.
I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans.
In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans. You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP. Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online? Just do this mind exercise and you will understand: Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament. Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game. Regional tournaments are fine. I don't think anyone has a problem with them. There isn't going to be much money in them though (just as Swedish football is relatively poor). And because overall there isn't a huge amount of money in the game (unlike football), it would be very difficult for players to survive on such a regional basis. The big money tournaments should be for the best players, which of course is Koreans. If foreigners want to change that fact they should work to get better, not be content with wins in meaningless regional tournaments with scrubs.
You're right, but the thing is, if there's more regional tournaments, the scene will grow and then regional tournaments won't be all that poor. Sure, being a pro in swedish football doesn't make you a millionare, but you can easily live off it and thus become good enough to make get into the big international teams. It could be the same for SC2. You're not good enough to win the big money in the global tournaments, but you win enough in regional tournaments to keep you going until you are.
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On June 17 2011 23:35 Thorantham wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 23:31 primebeef wrote:
I dunno it might be racist, because he is talking about not wanting Koreans to play in the american leagues, and he mentioned things like NASL which has people from europe also playing here but not once did he mention anything about it. It has nothing to do with race, it's about skill level. If the Koreans were playing in events and consistently coming in 23rd or 50th this thread wouldn't exist.
^^ That right there you just mentioned koreans exclusively, if you mentioned certain players that are korean it wouldn't be about race, but you are making it out to be like every korean player is a super star and that if a b teamer came over here they will dominate the whole league repeatedly and keep winning the prize money.
If you think the skill levels were that big of a difference do you think players like naniwa and thorzain will go over to korea to play?
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On June 17 2011 23:54 Quarz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 23:36 Tobberoth wrote:
I think Catz is spot on. Football in Sweden is also a great example, it's a HUGE sport which a ton of people engage in. But seriously, who would give a crap about MFF, AIK etc if amazing teams from champions league etc was in allsvenskan? The whole point is that the league is interesting because it's just swedish clubs playing, it's NOT interesting because the best players and teams in the world are there. If all leagues had the best teams, what would be the point of having any soccer at all in Sweden?
A young soccer loving dude in Sweden can work hard and do his best and can easily support himself professionally from playing in a swedish club in allsvenskan. He doesn't have to be good enough to be in the world cup to work with what he loves. And it's an amazing thing for the sport.
THAT is what Catz want for SC2, and I think it sounds great. Don't compare Team sport with 1 vs 1 Sports. You could compare the SC2-Szene with Tennis und you can ask yourself if any sweden tennis fan ist interested in sweden only Tennis-Tourney? IF NA had an own Sc2 Pro-league then it would be other thing.
I don't see how it's not comparable. Sure, more people watch the olympics than a national championship in track-and-field, but that doesn't mean you don't have regional tournaments and that those aren't an amazing stepping stone.
Catz is a player, you have to see his problem from a players perspective, not a spectator. I would love to see the top koreans vs the top foreigners in every single tournament, but I also realize it would completely kill the sport eventually.
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On June 17 2011 23:47 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote:
I disagree with Catz completely.
GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL.
If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best.
Stop complaining and practice more.
That's the harsh reality.
By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best.
I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans.
In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans. You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP. Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online? Just do this mind exercise and you will understand: Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament. Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game.
^^ OSL and MSL in BW is still going on and it always has the top 10 players in the world playing at every single tournament and it has lasted for a while.
It's not about region, he is mentioning koreans exclusivly he isn't talking about players from europe or the rest of asia, or any of the other continents.
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On June 18 2011 00:04 primebeef wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 23:47 Tobberoth wrote:On June 17 2011 23:40 ssi.bal-listic wrote:
I disagree with Catz completely.
GSL actually pays for the housing if a foreign player wants to compete in GSL.
If you want to get better, you have to compete with the best.
Stop complaining and practice more.
That's the harsh reality.
By not letting Koreans in foreign tournaments, you're just distinguishing yourself as amateur since you don't want to compete with the best. If you want to win money by winning tournament, why don't you prove yourself that you deserve it by beating the best.
I understand you're frustrated with not winning money possibly because of Koreans but that doesn't mean you can beat all the North Americans.
In reality, practice harder and beat the Koreans. You've misunderstood Catz point, and you probably didn't read the OP. Catz isn't afraid of playing koreans, he feels (correctly IMO) that esport would grow if there were more and bigger regional championships. It's true for all other sports, why shouldn't it be true for SC2 just because it happens to be played online? Just do this mind exercise and you will understand: Imagine if the 10 best players in the world could play in every single tournament. Imagine how long it would take until no one but those 10 players played the game. ^^ OSL and MSL in BW is still going on and it always has the top 10 players in the world playing at every single tournament and it has lasted for a while. It's not about region, he is mentioning koreans exclusivly he isn't talking about players from europe or the rest of asia, or any of the other continents.
OSL and MSL indeed... and how many new players do you see in the BW scene? How prolific is BW esport outside of Korea?
Exactly.
And while he does focus a lot on koreans specifically in that video, he also brings up the european tournament and says it's a good thing, and that's against both NA and Korea. Just like in soccer, there are non-swedish people playing in the clubs, but they have moved to sweden and are working for the club. It's not that simple in SC2 where as long as you have a computer, internet and is awake at the right time, you can join every single tournament you want.
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There are good reasons why most sports reserve spots at least partially based on nationality in international competitions for example. For one, if one country pulls too far ahead it wont be very international anymore. And when a country is too far behind other countries odds are the sport wont become or stay very popular.
Then there is the national competition part which Catz mostly talked about in the interview. Is it possible to have more national flavored competitions in sc2 like in most other sports? Well of course it's possible, just look at GSL which kind of works like national competitions or leagues in many other sports. I assume the problem is mostly that all sc2 tournaments want to be huge IE international. There might simply not be room for large more national leagues/tournaments yet unless something like NASL run the group stages in the lan format, kind of like GSL.
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On June 17 2011 22:07 Maliris wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 21:54 Psychobabas wrote:On June 17 2011 21:46 simansh wrote:
In my opinion the "pros" in the west just need to try harder. Don't live in the future, but in the now. If they don't have as much dedication as the korean progamers do now, then when will they? And try harder for what? For the next MC or MMA to get half the prize pool? Catz is completely spot on. He has the balls to say what most are thinking but are too scared of being flamed. Lol? Koreans competing internationally is good for everybody - makes the game more entertaining to watch and makes the game more competitive. You realise no one makes their money solely off prize money outside korea? it is too unreliable to do so (ask pretty much any pro). salary + streaming + content funds it
That doesnt mean much. Might as well invite Barcelona and Manchester United to compete in the Korean Football league. It sure would make it entertaining and competitive wouldnt it. But I have a feeling the Korean teams would get a bit upset...
My view is: It's too soon to invite Korean progamers. Let the western leagues build up first. We can talk about global esports when its worth talking about it.
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On June 17 2011 23:36 Tobberoth wrote:
I think Catz is spot on. Football in Sweden is also a great example, it's a HUGE sport which a ton of people engage in. But seriously, who would give a crap about MFF, AIK etc if amazing teams from champions league etc was in allsvenskan? The whole point is that the league is interesting because it's just swedish clubs playing, it's NOT interesting because the best players and teams in the world are there. If all leagues had the best teams, what would be the point of having any soccer at all in Sweden?
A young soccer loving dude in Sweden can work hard and do his best and can easily support himself professionally from playing in a swedish club in allsvenskan. He doesn't have to be good enough to be in the world cup to work with what he loves. And it's an amazing thing for the sport.
THAT is what Catz want for SC2, and I think it sounds great.
But who wouldnt rather watch Champions League than Allsvenskan? Everyone, including Swedes if Swedish teams qualified.
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On June 17 2011 23:58 Tobberoth wrote:
I don't see how it's not comparable. Sure, more people watch the olympics than a national championship in track-and-field, but that doesn't mean you don't have regional tournaments and that those aren't an amazing stepping stone.
Catz is a player, you have to see his problem from a players perspective, not a spectator. I would love to see the top koreans vs the top foreigners in every single tournament, but I also realize it would completely kill the sport eventually.
Teams have to be treated in a different way.
There are othrs tourment where Koreans doesn't participate, but the NASL want to become a big tourney, so they need koreans to be accepted as a big Tournement.
And in Football is also much much more money involved, so lower player get decent money. If you think you can get good money as an lower cricket player in sweden than i am pretty sure you cant.
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On June 18 2011 00:12 Quarz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 23:58 Tobberoth wrote:
I don't see how it's not comparable. Sure, more people watch the olympics than a national championship in track-and-field, but that doesn't mean you don't have regional tournaments and that those aren't an amazing stepping stone.
Catz is a player, you have to see his problem from a players perspective, not a spectator. I would love to see the top koreans vs the top foreigners in every single tournament, but I also realize it would completely kill the sport eventually. Teams have to be treated in a different way. There are othrs tourment where Koreans doesn't participate, but the NASL want to become a big tourney, so they need koreans to be accepted as a big Tournement. And in Football is also much much more money involved, so lower player get decent money. If you think you can get good money as an lower cricket player in sweden than i am pretty sure you cant.
Great example, proving my point in a post disagreeing. Cricket is a frickin tiny sport in Sweden, no one plays cricket unless they really really love the sport and plan to move somewhere it's played eventually. If you actually could make money of it, if there were proper swedish tournaments in cricket, I'm sure it would have a buttload more swedish players.
NASL wants to become a big tournament, sure. But maybe it SHOULD be the NORTH AMERICAN star league. Maybe koreans should be more than welcome, as long as they actually commit and go to the US?
It's up to NASL of course, but the point in this discussion is what's good for esports, not for current spectators and the pockets of the people behind NASL.
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On June 18 2011 00:12 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 22:07 Maliris wrote:On June 17 2011 21:54 Psychobabas wrote:On June 17 2011 21:46 simansh wrote:
In my opinion the "pros" in the west just need to try harder. Don't live in the future, but in the now. If they don't have as much dedication as the korean progamers do now, then when will they? And try harder for what? For the next MC or MMA to get half the prize pool? Catz is completely spot on. He has the balls to say what most are thinking but are too scared of being flamed. Lol? Koreans competing internationally is good for everybody - makes the game more entertaining to watch and makes the game more competitive. You realise no one makes their money solely off prize money outside korea? it is too unreliable to do so (ask pretty much any pro). salary + streaming + content funds it That doesnt mean much. Might as well invite Barcelona and Manchester United to compete in the Korean Football league. It sure would make it entertaining and competitive wouldnt it. But I have a feeling the Korean teams would get a bit upset... My view is: It's too soon to invite Korean progamers. Let the western leagues build up first. We can talk about global esports when its worth talking about it.
Inviting Koreans to NASL/MLG etc is like inviting Barca and United to an invite-only Champion's League. A competition that aims to offer high quality games with the best players around.
Inviting Barca/United to the Korean league would be like inviting Koreans to the EPS. Which doesn't happen.
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MidnightSun001 you need to add a poll on your opening post I think. It's worth seeing what the majority actually thinks.
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On June 17 2011 23:55 primebeef wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 23:35 Thorantham wrote:On June 17 2011 23:31 primebeef wrote:
I dunno it might be racist, because he is talking about not wanting Koreans to play in the american leagues, and he mentioned things like NASL which has people from europe also playing here but not once did he mention anything about it. It has nothing to do with race, it's about skill level. If the Koreans were playing in events and consistently coming in 23rd or 50th this thread wouldn't exist. ^^ That right there you just mentioned koreans exclusively, if you mentioned certain players that are korean it wouldn't be about race, but you are making it out to be like every korean player is a super star and that if a b teamer came over here they will dominate the whole league repeatedly and keep winning the prize money. If you think the skill levels were that big of a difference do you think players like naniwa and thorzain will go over to korea to play?
You just want it to be about race. Every player that has been invited to the NASL and MLG could be considered at minimum a high level player in Korea if not a super star. If those leagues were inviting b team players, and again they were finishing 23rd or 50th, we wouldn't be discussing this. Also, going over to Korea to play and going to Korea and dominating the events are two different things.
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EPT
