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Catz's argument explained - Page 16

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 14 15 16 17 18 33 Next All
Liquid`HayprO
Profile Joined March 2003
Iraq1230 Posts
June 17 2011 12:27 GMT
#301
i always knew catz was a racist
Team LiquidOur friendship will be the stuff of legend.
hippocritical
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Australia465 Posts
June 17 2011 12:28 GMT
#302
Well the infrastructure just isn't in NA/Europe yet, if progaming wasn't so much like a part time job it might really take off and you get a lot foreign players playing amongst themselves to get better rather than to get money. Now if there was a competition in NA, where you could place in the R64-32 and still get $1000-2000USD each month (a la GSL), there would be a lot less worry about how to pay the bills and find sponsors. 1 GSL championship is worth $100,000 USD, a MLG tournament with a fairly hard bracket admittedly is only worth $5,000 to $10,000 and not much guranteed money for people who place even in the top 10 or top 5.

I think what CatZ is trying to argue is that if Koreans take top 3 everytime, it's just pocket change for the foreign pros to win, but if Koreans place average in the GSL they get decent cash regardless, not to mention sponsorships. Either way it revolves around money, you need that money to develop the scene so you can get these nice big prize pools. It sort of infant industry argument but it was validity. Obviously there's too many ways to argue this, hopefully in time the scene will grow by itself and the problem goes away. If not there's always SC3 >.>
ROOTCatZ
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
Peru1238 Posts
June 17 2011 12:30 GMT
#303
On June 17 2011 21:27 Liquid`HayprO wrote:
i always knew catz was a racist

hahahahahha <3 god I love you, you're like yoda hayder, except cuter, you always drop 3-4 words but they always crack me up <3
Progamerwww.root-gaming.com
DennyR
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany379 Posts
June 17 2011 12:30 GMT
#304
From my perspective I can understand CatZ but I would not watch NASL if there were just NA-Players participating... really.
You cant announce a 100k tournament and then just let "bad" players play in it. Of course it attracts players over the world.


I think the real problem is, that the NA server is the easiest and that lowers the skill of all players playing there, even of the topplayers due to the lack of challenge and competition.


Again, If you ban all the korens, then its still pretty likely that the topfinish will be 3europeans or 2euros plus idra, thats just how it is.




Now the NASL is watchable and Iam looking forward to the finals.

dubRa
Profile Joined December 2008
2165 Posts
June 17 2011 12:34 GMT
#305
Guys. Encourage more middle tier cups. Those don't need Koreans. It seems there is more focus on creating big leagues with big numbers.
Ineffability~
Profile Joined February 2011
84 Posts
June 17 2011 12:39 GMT
#306
I think I understand CatZ that these players are actually trying to make a living off SC2 and @ a big tournament a Korean nerd comes with his robotic skillz and smashes all of the foreigners' faces and they are left naked, feeling stupid for all those hours spent practicing to actually realize how far behind you are.
valaki
Profile Joined June 2009
Hungary2476 Posts
June 17 2011 12:41 GMT
#307
Well it's perfectly understandable that he or any of the players don't want to play vs koreans. But from a viewer's standpoints, it's kinda meh.
ggaemo fan
Liquid`HayprO
Profile Joined March 2003
Iraq1230 Posts
June 17 2011 12:43 GMT
#308
On June 17 2011 21:30 coL.CatZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2011 21:27 Liquid`HayprO wrote:
i always knew catz was a racist

hahahahahha <3 god I love you, you're like yoda hayder, except cuter, you always drop 3-4 words but they always crack me up <3


this time its huk that deserves that credit.
Team LiquidOur friendship will be the stuff of legend.
MollocH
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany100 Posts
June 17 2011 12:43 GMT
#309
I'd like to share my opinion. As much as I love Catz and understand his point of view, I think koreans in the western sc2 scene is a huge progress.

Koreans are still that little better (as we could see in MLG) but it's very close. Those western professionals perheaps just need to train a little harder then they do now. I think that the koreans can push all those good guys in the west to become even better. One way to achieve that is the new Team Reign house where (if I understood it the right way) the circumstances will be a little like a korean pro house.

So as I said: I understand what catz is trying to say but the benefit of having koreans compete in the NASL, MLG, ... is also considerable. In terms of viewers, fans and last but not least the attention that the western scene will get from korea. It is (in my opinion) very important that korea realises that the west is close in terms of sc2 & eSports.

So catz I'm sorry to contradict you :D But I still will <3 you and watch your stream everytime I get the chance to
Psychobabas
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
2531 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-17 12:44:48
June 17 2011 12:43 GMT
#310
Completely agree with Catz. Get the infrastructure first, get it to a Korean progamer level, then have invites.

As IF a non-Korean is going to win Dreamhack. lolz

It's free money basically, and must be very disheartening for the foreign pros. More power to you Catz.
marcesr
Profile Joined June 2008
Germany1383 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-17 12:45:55
June 17 2011 12:44 GMT
#311
I couldnt agree more with Catz. Thats what I've been saying for months, dont invite koreans!!!!

It just sucks if Koreans get invited, fly over, take the prize money and leave again. They dont really contribute besides taking away the prize money.
Yes maybe some hardcore fans wont watch if there are no koreans, but way more people will stop watching league if there are always koreans in the top 3 like in the IEM or MLG.

edit: joining the catz fanclub <3
Condor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Netherlands188 Posts
June 17 2011 12:45 GMT
#312
On June 17 2011 21:43 Liquid`HayprO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2011 21:30 coL.CatZ wrote:
On June 17 2011 21:27 Liquid`HayprO wrote:
i always knew catz was a racist

hahahahahha <3 god I love you, you're like yoda hayder, except cuter, you always drop 3-4 words but they always crack me up <3


this time its huk that deserves that credit.


Nice trolling karmaslap huk?
Frankon
Profile Joined May 2010
3054 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-17 12:50:16
June 17 2011 12:46 GMT
#313
On June 17 2011 21:39 Ineffability~ wrote:
I think I understand CatZ that these players are actually trying to make a living off SC2 and @ a big tournament a Korean nerd comes with his robotic skillz and smashes all of the foreigners' faces and they are left naked, feeling stupid for all those hours spent practicing to actually realize how far behind you are.

Well its a vicious cycle.
Western pros:
Pros train>>> play in small cups>>> make a name for themselfs in them >>> move into bigger cups >>> get a lot of fans >>>{start of earning real money} start streaming games and fool around on stream >>> do some casting gigs? >>> coaching >>> skill regresses >> lose big tournaments {end of earning money?} >>> bitch about it >> back to training

Koreans:

Train >> play in torunament >> train >> play in torunament >> [OPTIONAL]become Boxer
simansh
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
257 Posts
June 17 2011 12:46 GMT
#314
In my opinion the "pros" in the west just need to try harder. Don't live in the future, but in the now. If they don't have as much dedication as the korean progamers do now, then when will they?
#1 Zenex Line fan!
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-17 12:58:25
June 17 2011 12:54 GMT
#315
I think one thing that's absolutely necessary for the situation to develop and something Catz might be overlooking, is that so far it's been a two way relationship between the Korean SC2 leagues/teams and foreigner leagues/teams. As long as they continue to make their resources available to us as well, then it can still be beneficial for both sets of communities to grow together. It's not just the GSL House either, but the MLG/GSL partnership, TorcH/TSL, oGs-TL house, Rain/Twilight and lots of other things where Korean players/teams are paying attention to the West and trying to interact with us. It's not as if they're just flying in, sniping some prizes and then ignoring us.

I can understand the concern coming from BW though, where WCG's basically always felt like that and aside from eStro, there was little to no interaction from Korea and the players who did go there weren't accepted very well (unlike the TorcH/TSL thing.)

It's not the exact same situation, but I think Catz' nightmare situation would be something akin to the American/Japanese baseball relationship, where MLB teams pick out all the best players from Japan and rarely do they give anything back (besides Tom Selleck) or try to improve the Japanese baseball system. As a result, Japanese baseball is somewhat dying and more people just want to follow MLB instead of their own teams.

The two systems don't have to be on equal footing as far as infrastructure or talent goes, but the resource sharing needs to continue from both sides, and then I think Catz' worries might be a non-issue.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Psychobabas
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
2531 Posts
June 17 2011 12:54 GMT
#316
On June 17 2011 21:46 simansh wrote:
In my opinion the "pros" in the west just need to try harder. Don't live in the future, but in the now. If they don't have as much dedication as the korean progamers do now, then when will they?


And try harder for what?

For the next MC or MMA to get half the prize pool?

Catz is completely spot on. He has the balls to say what most are thinking but are too scared of being flamed.
clickrush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Switzerland3257 Posts
June 17 2011 12:56 GMT
#317
you know that ESPORTS happens when there is so much drama involved!

<3 all the players! and iam still a boxer fan yay!!!
oGsMC: Zealot defense, Stalker attack, Sentry forcefieldu forcefieldu, Marauder die die
vojnik
Profile Joined October 2010
Macedonia923 Posts
June 17 2011 13:01 GMT
#318
If CatZ wins vs lets say oGsMC than everyone will tune into catZ's next game, simple and straightforward.
Look at Thorzain for example? no Growth for sort of "newer players" ?
And there are several foreigner players that have a shot against the koreans (that don't live in korea) like naniwa, dimaga , white ra and so on...
For the swarm!
budar
Profile Joined February 2011
175 Posts
June 17 2011 13:01 GMT
#319
On June 17 2011 21:54 Psychobabas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2011 21:46 simansh wrote:
In my opinion the "pros" in the west just need to try harder. Don't live in the future, but in the now. If they don't have as much dedication as the korean progamers do now, then when will they?


And try harder for what?

For the next MC or MMA to get half the prize pool?


Are you implying that they're stealing the prize money? They don't "get" it, they earn it by being better. That's what "sports" should be all about. Lets stop calling it "e-sports" then if we're going to play favorites.
Maliris
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Northern Ireland2557 Posts
June 17 2011 13:07 GMT
#320
On June 17 2011 21:54 Psychobabas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2011 21:46 simansh wrote:
In my opinion the "pros" in the west just need to try harder. Don't live in the future, but in the now. If they don't have as much dedication as the korean progamers do now, then when will they?


And try harder for what?

For the next MC or MMA to get half the prize pool?

Catz is completely spot on. He has the balls to say what most are thinking but are too scared of being flamed.

Lol? Koreans competing internationally is good for everybody - makes the game more entertaining to watch and makes the game more competitive. You realise no one makes their money solely off prize money outside korea? it is too unreliable to do so (ask pretty much any pro). salary + streaming + content funds it
"Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines."
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