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On June 17 2011 20:00 Liudo wrote:
This is an argument about protectionism vs free trade.
It's true that setting up tariffs or banning certain imports (here the exclusion of korean professional gamers) can help a small economy to grow faster (here the quality of North America professional gamers). However that is not what is best for the consumer, who is here an international consumer from NA, EU, KR etc etc. The comparison is with buying badly made but home-produced products with the expectation that eventually through enough investment that product will improve in quality. Altertatively you can buy better foreign made products and know that that means competition will be extremely severe. But it is severe for the companies (here NA professional gamers) and not for a typical consumer (for example, a european fan of MC).
The OP is not completely wrong or misguided, but it is incomplete and misleading.
And to bring it back to SC2 alone. Just think if NASL had included only NA players and excluded all others. The NASL would have been a disaster because it is only the quality of some of its players that has saved it. Do you think people would have watched it for its casting and production values alone? No of course not. Those parts of the NASL have remained questionable even despite some improvement from what was an atrocious start.
i think you're right about the "what if" situation for the NASL and inviting NA only players. the IPL is good example of a foreigner-only (not restrictive on purpose afaik) tournament that had very high production value and was very popular, though.
the comparison you made between this discussion and the economic one is interesting
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CatZ fails to realize, that foreign tournaments without Koreans will have less viewers (you can try to argue about that, but in most cases this should be true). Having less viewers means sponsors are not as interested which means less price money... so yeah. You could argue that even if Koreans take home price money, overall there is still more price money for the foreign players.
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On June 17 2011 14:49 XenoX101 wrote:
For those that are arguing that Esports makes money from their viewerbase, I feel you are missing the point of this thread. Yes it helps the viewership to bring the best players from all over the world to play in the tournament, but it does not help any of the players themselves.
Imagine for a second that you are fighting to make your mark in StarCraft II, but every tournament you enter even locally has the best players from korea dominating it left right and center, and you simply cant compete with these players. Now imagine that you are trying to make a living doing this, and are investing 8+ hours a day only to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - the koreans. Would you see entering these tournaments as a feasible way to make a living and put your name on the board?
It's admittedly quite exciting to watch your favourite korean players dominating in these big tournaments, but we have to remember that behind every winner there are umpteen more losers, and how fun is it really to watch . And when it is so convenient and easy for the best players (who happen to be koreans for SC2) in the world to casually join any of these tournament (its free, essentially), they will not hesitate to take up the opportunity and they will win. The chances of you winning despite all the effort you put in are slim to nothing if you are consistently facing these players no matter how big or small the tournament is. So given this would you make a living working 8+ hours a day if you had a 0.1% chance (and for most players we're being generous here) of earning more than a bare wage that you can't live off?
It's like an amateur mountain climber attempting to climb Everest, this is why Divisions are necessary. This is why when you ladder you aren't instantly paired with IdrA or KiWiKaKi, they are too far up in skill for you to have even the slightest chance of winning by more than accident. It would be hugely unmotivating and would not help you learn at all because anything you did right, would be entirely overshadowed by what you did wrong (which may not even be much but enough for the best players to beat you). There's a reason you don't start school at university doing a PhD, students need the appropriate environment to progress in, one that is above their level but only so much as that they can be challenged.
With this said I do believe there should still be some global leagues held in America, Europe and all over, but these should not be the only leagues giving a pay out to pro gamers. Local and national leagues need to exist like in every other sport so that up and coming players have a healthy environment to train while making a sustainable wage in winning tournaments that they can win, so that they don't spend 8+ hours a day training for nothing.
I feel like you're one of the few who understood my argument, instead of attacking the reasoning. Please read what this guy had to say.
And for those saying that this topic is bad for the forums (thanks for PMs, I prefer to take some issues to private), remember this isn't a whine about PvZ balance, a spam thread, meme or any other content of questionable use. Such topics do not contribute much, right? Well this isn't one of them. Whether any argument is true or false, it is always good in the way that it promotes discussion, no?
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On June 17 2011 20:00 Liudo wrote:
This is an argument about protectionism vs free trade.
It's true that setting up tariffs or banning certain imports (here the exclusion of korean professional gamers) can help a small economy to grow faster (here the quality of North America professional gamers). However that is not what is best for the consumer, who is here an international consumer from NA, EU, KR etc etc. The comparison is with buying badly made but home-produced products with the expectation that eventually through enough investment that product will improve in quality. Altertatively you can buy better foreign made products and know that that means competition will be extremely severe. But it is severe for the companies (here NA professional gamers) and not for a typical consumer (for example, a european fan of MC).
The OP is not completely wrong or misguided, but it is incomplete and misleading.
Take it a step further.
Historically, economies that sheltered themselves from foreign competition (mostly communist and third world nations) falter and find that they have crappy industries, shoddy goods and slow growth. Protecting themselves from "foreign exploration" added up to stagnation and backwardness.
Not comparing foreigner's tournament winnings, rather overall player skill.
It hurts the players when their ability level is not being tested, it hurts the viewership because we all want the BEST possible games, and it hurts tournaments when the viewership is hurt.
And honestly, there shouldn't be that much sympathy given to the Professional gamers when they're responsible for practicing playing competing and meeting the Koreans at the highest level of Starcraft when they are allowed to be sponsored and play full time.
On June 17 2011 20:20 MidnightSun001 wrote:
I feel like you're one of the few who understood my argument, instead of attacking the reasoning. Please read what this guy had to say.
Just because you made an argument doesn't mean that it makes it the correct one, that we aren't allowed to dispute and attack reasoning.
People understand the argument, they just don't AGREE with it.
Sorry if we can't all give you nice warm fuzzies and have 1000 posts saying "yes I completely agree".
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Imagine for a second that you are fighting to make your mark in StarCraft II, but every tournament you enter even locally has the best players from korea dominating it left right and center, and you simply cant compete with these players. Now imagine that you are trying to make a living doing this, and are investing 8+ hours a day only to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - the koreans. Would you see entering these tournaments as a feasible way to make a living and put your name on the board?
You can substitute Koreans with former BW players (like Catz) and you have the same argument. How is it fair that all the hundreds of master league players out there who do dedicate the 8+ hours a day to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - former BW players? Who have access and friendships with other highly skilled players, know people in the scene, have years of experience, may already be on a professional team.
How are these master league players who did not play BW supposed to compete and make a living without this inherent unfair advantage of not playing BW?
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Maybe make NASL with 2 divisions xDD
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How are these master league players who did not play BW supposed to compete and make a living without this inherent unfair advantage of not playing BW?
But if they're not genuinely good enough, should they be allowed to?
An ideal solution would be a mass influx of tournaments like you see on the ATP Pro Tour. One person can't compete in all the tournaments, and sometimes injury or personal matters get in the way as well. That acts to spread the money around, but you still have the Grand Slams to show off the best of the best. Nadal, Federer, Murray, Djokovic etc. also compete in the minor tournaments leading up to big events.
You don't hear anyone in Tennis complaining about the quality of tournaments (but there's tons of people bitching about the NASL).
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What is this idea that gamers should get what they want. The funny thing is, if CaTz was winning tournaments and was a known top tier pro, he wouldn't be saying any of this. You think NaniWa complained about koreans, he wants to compete with the best.
Thorzain was recognized as a top player by MC.
Tournaments will invite Koreans because it will attract more viewers and make it more global. MLG wouldn't of been that big if none of the Koreans were there. Catz has an argument that comes off as more of a whining vent rather than an understanding of the situation.
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On June 17 2011 20:26 Serberus wrote:Show nested quote +Imagine for a second that you are fighting to make your mark in StarCraft II, but every tournament you enter even locally has the best players from korea dominating it left right and center, and you simply cant compete with these players. Now imagine that you are trying to make a living doing this, and are investing 8+ hours a day only to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - the koreans. Would you see entering these tournaments as a feasible way to make a living and put your name on the board? You can substitute Koreans with former BW players (like Catz) and you have the same argument. How is it fair that all the hundreds of master league players out there who do dedicate the 8+ hours a day to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - former BW players? Who have access and friendships with other highly skilled players, know people in the scene, have years of experience, may already be on a professional team. How are these master league players who did not play BW supposed to compete and make a living without this inherent unfair advantage of not playing BW?
By working harder.You don't get better than someone who is already established by working less than them.
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It is generally accepted that a league with koreans + foreigners generate far more fan interest than a league with foreigners only, assuming everything else is equal (production, casters, time of exhibition etc).
So the problem of having a league with foreigners only is that a competitor league could easily invite a mixed setting of players and win the competition for the fan base in the long run.
I can't help but interpret as "whining" any players position in protectionism; I admire competitors for their desire to be the best. It is impossible to respect a top tier league that refuses to accepet harder competition in order to protect the interest of players that live in the same country.
If foreigners can't endure korean competition, than maybe they don't deserve the money or attention anyway.
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About making divisions... Lets look at EU
1st Tier of competition's
- Craft Cup Lite - cause of the pricepool its at most semi-pros
- Craft Cup - same as above with a bit more pros
- Some Silver, Gold, Platinum Cups
2nd Tier
- Zotac Cup - a bit more semi-pros and pros
- 4 players cup
- Competo Cup
3rd Tier ESL Online Stuff
- Dailymotion
-Go4sc2 and so on
3.5 Tier
-Go4sc2 Monthly Finals
- other online invite tournaments
4 Tier (OFFLINE COMPETITIONS)
- the ones without koreans
- example ESL IEM Europe
- EPS
5th Tier (GOD TIER, koreans participating)
- Dreamhack and ???
So as a player you chose on what lvl of competition you play.
Now lets look at that pyramid. 5th Tier competition get a lot of coverage due to koreans participating and pricepool. People who watch get interested in Sc2 and its competitive scene and start playing in Tier 1-2 competitions. Also sponsors that want to get some publicity due to SC2 start by sponsoring Tier 1-2 competition or setting their own tier 3.5 cups.
So how bad is for esport scene to have koreans?
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I find it strange that this discussion revolves around the question of where the price money is going. I don't think most pro players are able to finance themselves from tournament winnings and this is I think true for any sport.
You need a team that hires you and gives you a regular income. The winnings are the reward for your hard work, but it won't pay the bills on a regular basis. A really good player might be able to attract personal sponsors but lets disregard that for now.
So in order for the scene to grow what is needed are more teams with a good budget. And for that sponsors are necessary. Sponsors are attracted by a large amount of viewers because sponsoring is just a different form of advertisement.
So the main question is, how can the viewership of SCII be expanded and how can more people be attracted to watch a tournament. In my opinion it is a good for a league to have a lot of international players.
The comments from Korean boards here on TL in response to the latest MLG showed how much they enjoyed watching a truly international tournament. And I'm quite sure organizers are very aware of this as can be seen by the MLG/GSL exchange program.
Another question is of course which league will in the end become the "dominant" league. For example if you look at soccer then there are a lot of leagues around the world (Yes, I know NA is in regard to soccer a bit special) but the prime league for sure is the champion leagues which is compromised of European teams that have a lot of international players.
So in the end the reason for the champions league to be the prime league in the world is because it attracts the best of the best from all over the world (Yes there are historical reasons for that and it boils down to the insane salaries European clubs are willing to dish out for top players).
Still the point stand that I think it will be beneficial to NASL/MLG or even GSL to try to attract all of the top players in the world. The league that manages to do that, will become the most important one and attract the most viewers.
Just a personal point as an avid viewer in the end... I would like to see a strong European league because time shift sucks 
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On June 17 2011 20:46 Phaded wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 20:26 Serberus wrote:Imagine for a second that you are fighting to make your mark in StarCraft II, but every tournament you enter even locally has the best players from korea dominating it left right and center, and you simply cant compete with these players. Now imagine that you are trying to make a living doing this, and are investing 8+ hours a day only to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - the koreans. Would you see entering these tournaments as a feasible way to make a living and put your name on the board? You can substitute Koreans with former BW players (like Catz) and you have the same argument. How is it fair that all the hundreds of master league players out there who do dedicate the 8+ hours a day to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - former BW players? Who have access and friendships with other highly skilled players, know people in the scene, have years of experience, may already be on a professional team. How are these master league players who did not play BW supposed to compete and make a living without this inherent unfair advantage of not playing BW? By working harder.You don't get better than someone who is already established by working less than them.
He was being sarcastic. It's the same bad argument Catz makes. No one deserves to be "protected" from players better than them.
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I might agree with Catz on one condition: If there were national teams in SC2.
Until such a time when that's a big deal, then i simply wont watch tournaments which intentionally lower their level by restricting entrants.
I will not watch an inferior product. It's bad enough having bad casters, but bad players too? Please.
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Wonder how many viewers NASL would lose without the Korean players, I would be one of them at least.
There's much simpler solution to keeping the money in NA than banning the Koreans, foreigners just need to start winning instead of whining.
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There's much simpler solution to keeping the money in NA than banning the Koreans, foreigners just need to start winning instead of whining.
They argue that the system is against them, just think about that argument next time you see one of them coaching, casting or fooling around on a stream.
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On June 17 2011 20:55 Goibon wrote:
I might agree with Catz on one condition: If there were national teams in SC2.
Until such a time when that's a big deal, then i simply wont watch tournaments which intentionally lower their level by restricting entrants.
I will not watch an inferior product. It's bad enough having bad casters, but bad players too? Please.
There are... at least in EU.
eg: POL-Team
+ Show Spoiler +1vs1:
DieStar
Forte
Funkay
tefel
Mana
Nerchio
Slider
Tarson
2vs2:
Kubiasty & peel
Mana & Funkay
Also you can treat WCG as national competition.
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On June 17 2011 20:55 Goibon wrote:
I might agree with Catz on one condition: If there were national teams in SC2.
Until such a time when that's a big deal, then i simply wont watch tournaments which intentionally lower their level by restricting entrants.
I will not watch an inferior product. It's bad enough having bad casters, but bad players too? Please.
that's one of the things I miss the most from broodwar, apparently only Latin America seems to do a lot of Nationwars, and even tough (no offense homies<3) team Peru kinda sucks, I enjoy a lot playing in those clanwars, the streams in spanish have like 100 maybe 200 viewers for those nationwars, but god does it feel good lol. My point is, again, that exactly, if you want the players to succeed and become better and for the gap not to grow gigantic as it did in broodwar, then you must give the players realistic goals and motivations to work towards.
Its been brought up that if I was naniwa or thorzain or a more successful player I wouldn't be saying this, I disagree, I am not speaking in behalf of myself, wether koreans come or not, at this point in time my chances to win anything are slim, but it would surely motivate me to play more, more seriously and become better if there were more localized tournaments, germany does it and it works wonders, sweeden has dreamhack, altough they work off of invites recently too, its the biggest lan in the world, wether you want to see that as an example or a plus, Swedish people have in general and in most games, done great in comparison to other nations, im talking computer games in general, not just starcraft 2. I am only voicing my opinion on what I believe would be the best way to approach esports and its growth in this hemisphere, both to make it viable as a career for players (therefore creating better, more competitive players) and more of a 'sport' feel for fans.
This is why I agree with you Nationwars are amazing, being part of a National Team feels amazing, and even things like that where pride matters as much as money, are great motivation for players to become better. take idk, 'OdiN' for example, he's a Peruvian player in the Peruvian National team that you likely have never heard about, he's not half bad, with National Teams and Nationwars systems in place, OdiN wouldn't have to practice to be the best in the world, but surpassing Fenix or myself would be a MUCH closer more realistic goal for him. My point is, in order for esports to grow arround here, we need goals that are reachable, motivations for the players and a fanbase that follows not just based on individual skill but based on things like national pride as well (note for retards who think I say shit cause im a selfish bastard: im from Peru so i'd prob be the least benefited person by this as the sc2 following in peru is not huge)
I'm not gonna lie, most known players in the US and EU can easily make a living off of the game right now, based on fame and knowledge, Lessons and Streaming are great for things like that. You can probably make a lot more money trying to give as many lessons a day as you can, as you could investing the same amount of time AND winning a huge tournament. But as players, everyone who got into this, got into this because of the passion we have for the game, we want to PLAY! and for idiots saying "ok then go play and become the best and stop whining" to become the best: you need to play full time, no job, no nothing, without proper motivation and Esports allocated elsewhere, meaning Sponsors are likely to go elsewhere too... who's gonna pay the bills?
there are a lot of factors that contribute into this and the reason I ever made that video is because im not afraid to speak my mind, I know of a lot of 'pros' that share my pov, idk if they are brave enough to admit it, but I don't mind being the evil dood here who is apparently a racist and a coward l o l. I could do a bunch of things, I could work in my field of study, I could do a lot more lessons and live comfortably... I believe I have the knowledge and the brain to become one of the best players in the world, I won't go HuK and say Im gonna be the next boxer <3 :D but I was proud of him when he said that, he has the financial backup from TL to likely be able to practice all day and focus on JUST gaming, not everyone does though.
Im going back to drinking now  , have a wonderful morning.
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On June 17 2011 20:24 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 20:00 Liudo wrote:
This is an argument about protectionism vs free trade.
It's true that setting up tariffs or banning certain imports (here the exclusion of korean professional gamers) can help a small economy to grow faster (here the quality of North America professional gamers). However that is not what is best for the consumer, who is here an international consumer from NA, EU, KR etc etc. The comparison is with buying badly made but home-produced products with the expectation that eventually through enough investment that product will improve in quality. Altertatively you can buy better foreign made products and know that that means competition will be extremely severe. But it is severe for the companies (here NA professional gamers) and not for a typical consumer (for example, a european fan of MC).
The OP is not completely wrong or misguided, but it is incomplete and misleading. Take it a step further. Historically, economies that sheltered themselves from foreign competition (mostly communist and third world nations) falter and find that they have crappy industries, shoddy goods and slow growth. Protecting themselves from "foreign exploration" added up to stagnation and backwardness. Not comparing foreigner's tournament winnings, rather overall player skill. It hurts the players when their ability level is not being tested, it hurts the viewership because we all want the BEST possible games, and it hurts tournaments when the viewership is hurt. And honestly, there shouldn't be that much sympathy given to the Professional gamers when they're responsible for practicing playing competing and meeting the Koreans at the highest level of Starcraft when they are allowed to be sponsored and play full time.
And what exactly makes you both think we have to paint things in black and white? Under what assumption do we have to apply absolute terms? Where exactly was it stated that Koreans should never be allowed to attend any tournament?
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If you have the biggest names in western sc2 and asian sc2 you are obviously going to track a bigger viewer base which means more revenue, possibly bigger sponsors and on top of this you are not trying to do a bw in separating the scenes, who really cares if they take away the prize fund :E
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EPT
