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On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote:
I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged. I agree with that part as well, but: 1. he can't tell anything to a particular tournament; if the tournament wants to be global, then it's up to the local players to prefer to play in local tournaments if they can't compete on a global level yet; 2. the problem he describes would not be resolved by keeping the best players out, because then just the value of the tournament lowers - in terms of both money and honors. So you can't have both at the same time: avoid the best players, and get paid and honored as if you've beaten them.
I guess one conclusion is that regional SC2 around the world needs more emphasized local tournaments - that, if not on a top world level, are at the best level for the region and hyped enough for kids to want to compete in them. With this I agree - it's important to have smooth leveling in skill, to nourish the foreign communities.
I think the particular reason for the video was that Catz expected NASL/MLG to be "_the_ north american tournament", and in either case it's not, it's more like "another global tournament, held in NA". Fine, accept that definition, and look for another tournament to be the truly local one.
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On June 17 2011 19:08 don_kyuhote wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote:
I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged. You don't have to feel like you can win the tournament to work hard. Not every 32 teams in the World cup thinks they can win it, but they all have a goal, be it round of 16, quarterfinal or others. Set a goal, and train and work towards it!
We could say that Catz minimum goal at that MLG was his main stage match with July. Yet he screwed with a no show which could be partially blamed on MLG.
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Catz is 100% correct. If Koreans take every event there will be no motivation, money or sponsorship to stay gaming in USA, might as well join marines or something.
Kor already has infrastructure to build great players, USA is fledgling - why destroy it?
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On June 17 2011 19:21 tdt wrote:
Catz is 100% correct. If Koreans take every event there will be no motivation, money or sponsorship to stay gaming in USA, might as well join marines or something.
Kor already has infrastructure to build great players, USA is fledgling - why destroy it?
Was said a million time before... The koreans don't take out sponsorship form USA. They actually are adding it. The companies that are interested in USA market wont sponsor the koreans that sometimes show themselves. They would go for NA based player that is market as a player who wants to take on koreans.
I still cant understand why people cant understand the simple idea that most of sponsors want to advertise in certain region. You think Stride gum would sponor a korean when their main market is USA and that korean would come for tournament in US like 2-3 times a year?
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On June 17 2011 18:50 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote:
I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged. Esports is brutal, it isn't as developed as other real sports, if he can't do it perhaps he shouldn't treat it as a career, because he is being unrealistic.
catz is being realistic. you even back up his point with saying esports are brutal and aren't as developed, except you are wrong in generalizing esports. korean esports, specifically brood war, are as developed as other real sports, and the korean sc2 scene benefits greatly from BW's development in many ways.
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Catz is 100% correct. If Koreans take every event there will be no motivation, money or sponsorship to stay gaming in USA, might as well join marines or something.
Kor already has infrastructure to build great players, USA is fledgling - why destroy it?
It has less to do with infrastructure and more to do with lifestyle. If we get to the point where foreign pros are practicing 8+ hours a day and still getting crushed because of lack of team houses and coaches then he may have a point, right now though most foreign "pros" openly admit they aren't practicing 8+ hours a day or in some cases even close to that. Without even that base level of equality, practice hours, how can people even begin to complain that infrastructure gives an unfair advantage? (I'm not saying it doesn't, just that until you are practicing the same # of hours they are it is a bad argument to say the kind of practice they are getting is what gives them an advantage)
Secondly, if Catz really wants to stick to his stance he, and all of complexity if they feel the same, can decline to come to events with koreans. The fact is, the spectators want to see the top koreans vs. foreigners, so the only way to force change on the competitions is for the foreigners (players) to back out if koreans are coming. If they aren't willing to do that it is pointless for them to complain.
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On June 17 2011 19:30 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 19:21 tdt wrote:
Catz is 100% correct. If Koreans take every event there will be no motivation, money or sponsorship to stay gaming in USA, might as well join marines or something.
Kor already has infrastructure to build great players, USA is fledgling - why destroy it? Was said a million time before... The koreans don't take out sponsorship form USA. They actually are adding it. The companies that are interested in USA market wont sponsor the koreans that sometimes show themselves. They would go for NA based player that is market as a player who wants to take on koreans. I still cant understand why people cant understand the simple idea that most of sponsors want to advertise in certain region. You think Stride gum would sponor a korean when their main market is USA and that korean would come for tournament in US like 2-3 times a year?
I don't agree. Who wants to sponsor 5th best? Not coke who sponsors IM. Stride gum? Never heard of them, low rent district I'm sure. Bottom line is inviting Koreans is like demanding our NBA players get a shot at all EU basketball championships and their money without going though season and qualification. If Koreans had to do that they would not be here.
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The Koreans keep the foreign scene honest. I'm not really interested in watching sub-par, under-trained Americans duke it out over and over. While they may take some prize money away from the foreigners, they also bring more attention to the scene/tournaments in return. It's give & take, not just take take take from the Koreans.
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overall the nasl needs viewers to balance out its prize pool, i know if there was suddenly no koreans in nasl ever again i would definately never pay for the nasl again and i do pay now.
ultimately i dont think the prize pools are large enough to validate your argument and it ignores the fact that a NA player could beat the best koreans and get a huge salary increase next contract negotiation. we could do the same thing to them if we were actually better than them which id like to see more than anything.
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Just want to say that I share Catz's view to most extent, while agreeing that the economics of esport is much more to do with fanbase and publicity, at least more so in the future.
Here is another way to see the rationale. Just been SC2 fans, and watch free streams of matches, all of us are already "sponsoring" esport through advertising. As interest in SC2 grows, and fanbase grows, the more people there is interested in SC2, the bigger the advertising deals are going to be for pro teams, and they will have more resource. At the present, and maybe for sometime to come yet, the fact is, for a significant number of pro-gamers outside Korea, prize money from tournies are their major source of income. Therefore it does not help the talents on ourside to ask them to compete against Koreans for all the big prizes, when our pro-gamers have not had that level of support yet. To put it to a crude exagerated analogy, America wish to develop soccer, they do not fund their home teams very well, instead puts up all the funding in massive prize tournies of home teams against Brazil!
For those of us who want the pro scene to grow outside Korea, we should at least first agree on one thing, the Koreans are better right now not because they are inately smarter than the rest of the world, it is because they have better infrastructure to train and have been training longer. If we wish for the talents outside of Korea to grow, and to match those in Korea, then pro-gaming organizations outside Korea should first look to support these talents. Of course, one need to from time to time compete with the Koreans if not for anything, as a matter of training. However, the focus of the support should be on our local talents, if we want them to have a good chance at competing against the Koreans!
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On June 17 2011 19:34 taintmachine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 18:50 furymonkey wrote:On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote:
I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged. Esports is brutal, it isn't as developed as other real sports, if he can't do it perhaps he shouldn't treat it as a career, because he is being unrealistic. catz is being realistic. you even back up his point with saying esports are brutal and aren't as developed, except you are wrong in generalizing esports. korean esports, specifically brood war, are as developed as other real sports, and the korean sc2 scene benefits greatly from BW's development in many ways.
Except when i'm talking about Catz, i'm talking about esports at North America, how is Korea developed scene anything to do with his career i'm talking about here? His team already struggles with sponsorship, how is he realistic when he expect leagues with decent prize pool for non top tier players like him.
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On June 17 2011 19:38 tdt wrote:
I don't agree. Who wants to sponsor 5th best? Not coke who sponsors IM. Stride gum? Never heard of them, low rent district I'm sure. Bottom line is inviting Koreans is like demanding our NBA players get a shot at all EU basketball championships and their money without going though season and qualification. If Koreans had to do that they would not be here.
Not to alienate anybody here with the economics but Foreign Countries is becoming a bigger market for American companies to exploit so it makes sense for American companies to try and become known in areas where they want to conquer.
But that's not to say that foreigner (starcraft) teams aren't sponsored.
Razer and Steelseries are the two biggest names in team sponsoring right now. Because gaming is becoming a bigger market in the West, it makes sense for gaming companies (and computer companies like Intel) to sponsor foreigner teams.
It's not a matter of "which team is better", it's a matter of "what makes sense."
Somewhat true. But I don't understand how it will ever develop if Koreans win everything. Americans never will get the packed houses, salary, a pure gaming time without success in first place. Koreans already have it developed over 12 years slowly from infancy and lateral move into SC2. It's like a chicken before egg thing.
Holy shit man there are so many posts detailing how it will develop regardless and BECAUSE Koreans are competing, go read them and you'll understand or not agree with it.
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On June 17 2011 19:36 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +Catz is 100% correct. If Koreans take every event there will be no motivation, money or sponsorship to stay gaming in USA, might as well join marines or something.
Kor already has infrastructure to build great players, USA is fledgling - why destroy it? It has less to do with infrastructure and more to do with lifestyle. If we get to the point where foreign pros are practicing 8+ hours a day and still getting crushed because of lack of team houses and coaches then he may have a point, right now though most foreign "pros" openly admit they aren't practicing 8+ hours a day or in some cases even close to that. Without even that base level of equality, practice hours, how can people even begin to complain that infrastructure gives an unfair advantage? (I'm not saying it doesn't, just that until you are practicing the same # of hours they are it is a bad argument to say the kind of practice they are getting is what gives them an advantage) Secondly, if Catz really wants to stick to his stance he, and all of complexity if they feel the same, can decline to come to events with koreans. The fact is, the spectators want to see the top koreans vs. foreigners, so the only way to force change on the competitions is for the foreigners (players) to back out if koreans are coming. If they aren't willing to do that it is pointless for them to complain.
Somewhat true. But I don't understand how it will ever develop if Koreans win everything. Americans never will get the packed houses, salary, a pure gaming time without success in first place. Koreans already have it developed over 12 years slowly from infancy and lateral move into SC2. It's like a chicken before egg thing.
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If there is a viable market for US-only tournaments then those will appear, and there are alot of smaller ones already. To me it only seems natural that the big tournaments want players from around the globe so they appeal to a global audience.
The big advantage ESPORTS has compared to alot of other sports is that it´s easy to broadcast everywhere over the internet and players can compete with others worldwide(with some hometurf advantage), most other sports have to deal with the limitations that come with TV-broadcasting and the logistics of getting everyone to the same location.
I can understand Catz perspective that he thinks he would make more money and get more attention without Koreans in the tournaments, because that´s what it boils down to. I hope more people start thinking like Naniwa, Thorzain and FXO instead, they go to Korea because they want to compete with the best. In the long run that´s the kind of mentality that will earn you the big money, striving to be the best, not trying to avoid Koreans because they are too good. Imagine what will happen if some foreigner goes and wins GSL, I bet that person will earn some big money from sponsors.
Love competition, don´t fear it!
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On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote:
I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged.
Yeah let's give money to someone who hasn't worked as hard as others to be the best...so they will work harder? wait what 
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On June 17 2011 19:45 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 19:34 taintmachine wrote:On June 17 2011 18:50 furymonkey wrote:On June 17 2011 18:46 Skygrinder wrote:
I agree with Catz, people have to feel they can win something in order to work harder. If they see those Korean giants invited many players will surely be discouraged. Esports is brutal, it isn't as developed as other real sports, if he can't do it perhaps he shouldn't treat it as a career, because he is being unrealistic. catz is being realistic. you even back up his point with saying esports are brutal and aren't as developed, except you are wrong in generalizing esports. korean esports, specifically brood war, are as developed as other real sports, and the korean sc2 scene benefits greatly from BW's development in many ways. Except when i'm talking about Catz, i'm talking about esports at North America, how is Korea developed scene anything to do with his career i'm talking about here? His team already struggles with sponsorship, how is he realistic when he expect leagues with decent prize pool for non top tier players like him.
catz's concerns don't have to apply to just him, and he isn't saying he'd be taking tournaments if the koreans weren't there. as i understand his argument, koreans being in the tournament does not benefit the NA playerbase in the longrun in terms of growth and improvement.
also, most of root, including catz, was acquired by complexity, which has sponsors (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/CompLexity).
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On June 17 2011 19:53 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 19:36 Duravi wrote:Catz is 100% correct. If Koreans take every event there will be no motivation, money or sponsorship to stay gaming in USA, might as well join marines or something.
Kor already has infrastructure to build great players, USA is fledgling - why destroy it? It has less to do with infrastructure and more to do with lifestyle. If we get to the point where foreign pros are practicing 8+ hours a day and still getting crushed because of lack of team houses and coaches then he may have a point, right now though most foreign "pros" openly admit they aren't practicing 8+ hours a day or in some cases even close to that. Without even that base level of equality, practice hours, how can people even begin to complain that infrastructure gives an unfair advantage? (I'm not saying it doesn't, just that until you are practicing the same # of hours they are it is a bad argument to say the kind of practice they are getting is what gives them an advantage) Secondly, if Catz really wants to stick to his stance he, and all of complexity if they feel the same, can decline to come to events with koreans. The fact is, the spectators want to see the top koreans vs. foreigners, so the only way to force change on the competitions is for the foreigners (players) to back out if koreans are coming. If they aren't willing to do that it is pointless for them to complain. Somewhat true. But I don't understand how it will ever develop if Koreans win everything. Americans never will get the packed houses, salary, a pure gaming time without success in first place. Koreans already have it developed over 12 years slowly from infancy and lateral move into SC2. It's like a chicken before egg thing.
The problem is that it wont develop. At best it would stagnate with no stimulus to perform better than average.
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This is an argument about protectionism vs free trade.
It's true that setting up tariffs or banning certain imports (here the exclusion of korean professional gamers) can help a small economy to grow faster (here the quality of North America professional gamers). However that is not what is best for the consumer, who is here an international consumer from NA, EU, KR etc etc. The comparison is with buying badly made but home-produced products with the expectation that eventually through enough investment that product will improve in quality. Altertatively you can buy better foreign made products and know that that means competition will be extremely severe. But it is severe for the companies (here NA professional gamers) and not for a typical consumer (for example, a european fan of MC).
The OP is not completely wrong or misguided, but it is incomplete and misleading.
And to bring it back to SC2 alone. Just think if NASL had included only NA players and excluded all others. The NASL would have been a disaster because it is only the quality of some of its players that has saved it. Do you think people would have watched it for its casting and production values alone? No of course not. Those parts of the NASL have remained questionable even despite some improvement from what was an atrocious start.
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On June 17 2011 11:53 Boblhead wrote:
I'm sure this was posted on TL before. AskJoshy did a whole bunch of these kinds of videos.
Yeah I agree, this was way before MLG Columbus anyway, so the whole "CatZ vs July" match disqualification is pretty much invalid here when it comes per this video.
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If people are curious on why Koreans are usually better in gaming than foreigners is because esports is very well developed in Korea, and mainly Korean teenagers or adults as well resort to playing games in their spare time (LOTS of netcafe everywhere in Korea) while the foreigners will tend to do more outdoor/other activities at a younger age. Also a better developed Esports community. It's obviously not the genes.
A lot of the foreigners need to realise pro gaming in Korea is never encouraged. When I say never, I mean NEVER. Majority of the Asian parents are very conservative. They want their child to go through university and study hard and get respected jobs or a well paid jobs. Stupid as this might be, earning a lot of money is very important in Korea. As money has very high value in life. (It's ridiculous I know).
No parents in mind will want their kids to become a pro gamer, not just because it's risky and competitive, it's also not as acknowledged as a real profession unless you are truly the best player in Korea/World.
Even with the risks involved there are a few that decides to train and become a pro gamer even with the risks because they are just so passionate about the game. I believe this is the reason why Korea have such high calibre players. It's an arduous task being the best, but the Koreans manage to do it every time, not because they have better genes for gaming but due to the hard training and probably efficient training as well due to coaches and team houses.
Korean esports had to start somewhere. It didn't just magically appear. Now Koreans take pride in their esports community and mainly because they are the best in Starcraft.
If you want starcraft esports growing in the US community (which I already do believe it is) we need to see more US players doing well in tournaments competing with the BEST.
For the sake of argument Idra or Incontrol beats Koreans multiple times and takes the championship from the Koreans in the GSL. They would be regarded as a "Hero" in the foreign community. And possibly the growth of starcraft esports in US or other countries. Cause many Top Korean players would come over to the west because they want to compete and beat the best.
I already believe esports in growing everywhere, and MLG certainly proved this as there were many Korean viewers watching MLG, competing with the best foreign players.
The only thing left to even make starcraft2 more global is to see more foreigners doing better, competing par to par with the Koreans.
If you think the new potential pro gamers requires motivation/glamour to join the esports business you're wrong. It's all about passion and hard work to be the best, I can certainly name a lot of players in Korea training hard to become the best risking everything. Look at Nestea. Please don't say he had sucess in 2v2 BW. 2v2 was a failure and never really regarded as a pro gamer. He never succeeded as a BW pro gamer. Even with the utter failure he had in BW, he still became in pro gamer in sc2 and to become debatable the best zerg in the world. Talk about passion for the game!
If Catz or any other foreigners want to see esports growing in their countries, go beat the best. You are a Pro gamer, concentrate on your job and become the best at it. The esports community should be following the country which they are the best, or regarded as the best. The reason why I find starcraft 2 far more interesting than BW is because there are a lot of skilled foreigners in the scene nuking it out with the Koreans. I certainly would like to see more foreign heroes doing well in GSL or in tournaments like MLG where the best players are invited. I'll def be rooting for Thoz and Naniwa in Code A, hoping they'll make it into Code S. How exciting would that be?
And please don't compare soccer and sc2. The fact that you can compete offline from anywhere in the world is really a bonus, and probably if top soccer players could somehow magically play in matches without the hassle of moving from different country to country, who would move?
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EPT
