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On June 20 2011 06:25 Bagi wrote:
All I can say, after watching MLG and DH - my hopes for foreigners being competitive against Koreans seems slimmer and slimmer.
Some people just say they wanna see good quality games - but I think the excitement of "who is going to win" is at least as important. Right now, it seems that Koreans always get to the top4, and the foreigners come trailing after. Korean vs foreigner? The Korean will win, but no matter - we'll get a exciting final series, because then it'll only be Koreans left! Too bad even those series are rarely very exciting either.
I don't mind Koreans winning events, its just boring from a spectators point of view when they dominate so hard. Next some will say foreigners just have to get better - well, what if they never do? Should we accept that SC2 is doomed to become another Korean circle-jerk like its predecessor?
Except most of the koreans haven't dominated so hard. In fact the games have been intense for the most part. MLG? MMA was basically dead and gone vs show but pulled a great comeback. Idra beating MC first day. Thorzain going 4-3(I think) vs MC etc. etc. Currently at Dreamhack similar situations have happened as well. People just don't care about the games, they only care about the drama and who comes out on top. If they actually watched properly they would see how freaking close half these games have been.
When 2 super high level players meet and one plays flawlessly while the other makes a mistake it often looks like a steamrolling but in fact the game was super close. I think people are just racist and don't like to admit it. Rather funny for me when racism is something that was so big so recently in my country. It's kinda obvious that's what's happening.
EDIT:On June 20 2011 06:44 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 06:40 JinDesu wrote:
Losira vs MMA was damn entertaining. Losira vs MC was damn entertaining as well. I don't understand how they could be considered "not exciting". Losira vs MC was exciting, yes. Losira vs MMA, kinda one-sided and quick. Thing is, for those 2 series we got a TON of series with Koreans taking out foreigners in one-sided games. Is the trade-off really worth it?
Seems my above paragraph was more suited for this reply but same notion applies here. Some games are one sided, same as any tournament but so many aren't.
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one simple question...
what if Ukrainians are so good, what if Swedish are as good as Koreans? you wanna ban them all?
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How can you claim the games are that "freaking close" when the Koreans haven't lost a single series in DH? When in MLG, the Koreans were only eliminated by other Koreans? Sure, players like Thorzain and Idra put up a decent fight in some games - but they still lost. How many tournaments of complete statistical dominance does it take until you can admit the games aren't that "close" as you think they are?
Calling it racism is a pretty non-related argument tbh. I just want an exciting tournament from a spectators POV, but so far they don't seem to deliver.
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Well the other option would be to exclude Koreans and call yourselves the "North American Little League" or the "B-League Gaming."
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On June 20 2011 07:00 Bagi wrote:
How can you claim the games are that "freaking close" when the Koreans haven't lost a single series in DH? When in MLG, the Koreans were only eliminated by other Koreans? Sure, players like Thorzain and Idra put up a decent fight in some games - but they still lost. How many tournaments of complete statistical dominance does it take until you can admit the games aren't that "close" as you think they are?
Calling it racism is a pretty non-related argument tbh. I just want an exciting tournament from a spectators POV, but so far they don't seem to deliver.
Im quite sure the vast majority of the people do find tournaments like mlg, tsl, dreamhack exciting.
You are a minority.
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On June 20 2011 06:54 namedplayer wrote:
one simple question...
what if Ukrainians are so good, what if Swedish are as good as Koreans? you wanna ban them all?
swedish already own NA, so with catz's logic we need to exclude swedes and koreans. great intellectual we have there catz truly amazing
User was temp banned for this post.
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Instead of removing the koreans, get your heads down and practice... or else you're not worthy of the title professional gamer.
and how do you think this will work? i guess its safe to assume that 1) you have to make enough money to make a living from your gaming to be a professional gamer and 2) that the korean scene had a headstart skillwise
so what i see happening is that the koreans dominate the events in the EU und US, which means less price money stays with the EU/US scene, which then means fever professional gamers in EU/US, which then means the skillgap between KOR and EU/US increases even further
in the end there will be very very few people who make their living of of gaming in the EU/US because there is no way non-koreans can practice as much without winning any money and further there will be no value in sponsoring EU/US players that cant compete at any event
scene in the US/EU might die and i guess that is what catz was worried about
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On June 20 2011 07:05 BroodjeBaller wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 07:00 Bagi wrote:
How can you claim the games are that "freaking close" when the Koreans haven't lost a single series in DH? When in MLG, the Koreans were only eliminated by other Koreans? Sure, players like Thorzain and Idra put up a decent fight in some games - but they still lost. How many tournaments of complete statistical dominance does it take until you can admit the games aren't that "close" as you think they are?
Calling it racism is a pretty non-related argument tbh. I just want an exciting tournament from a spectators POV, but so far they don't seem to deliver. Im quite sure the vast majority of the people do find tournaments like mlg, tsl, dreamhack exciting. You are a minority.
I do find the overall tournament exciting, as well as the foreigner games and such.
I just find that the Koreans take away from the excitement rather than add to it.
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Catz wants to be able to be competitive at tournaments. That's all it comes down to. And who can blame him? I would be the same way if I were working my butt off to become among the best players.
On June 20 2011 06:25 Bagi wrote:
I don't mind Koreans winning events, its just boring from a spectators point of view when they dominate so hard. Next some will say foreigners just have to get better - well, what if they never do? Should we accept that SC2 is doomed to become another Korean circle-jerk like its predecessor?
Koreans aren't dominating anywhere near the level that they did/do in BW. And I seriously doubt it will ever be like that, mainly because SC2 is different in that mechanics aren't quite as important.
Plus I think since the foreigner SC2 E-sports community is fairly big, we should see more sponsorship and therefore more player homes. I don't feel as the gap has widened between foreigners and Koreans since the game came out. If anything the gap is narrowing ever so slightly.
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On June 20 2011 07:06 fartdra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 06:54 namedplayer wrote:
one simple question...
what if Ukrainians are so good, what if Swedish are as good as Koreans? you wanna ban them all? swedish already own NA, so with catz's logic we need to exclude swedes and koreans. great intellectual we have there catz truly amazing
yes that was brought up many times lol totally agreed
and the problem here still lays that catz still think he's correct but won't respond to anyones question or at least further argue on his topic
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On June 20 2011 07:00 Bagi wrote:
How can you claim the games are that "freaking close" when the Koreans haven't lost a single series in DH? When in MLG, the Koreans were only eliminated by other Koreans? Sure, players like Thorzain and Idra put up a decent fight in some games - but they still lost. How many tournaments of complete statistical dominance does it take until you can admit the games aren't that "close" as you think they are?
I say they close because the individual games were close. Sure you can ignore the actual play and just look at the statistics but well that's just silly way to judge things.
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So do you guys think competitive = ban the high skilled player ?
sigh DH and MLG will be bored without asian
just practice and become a pro .. right now i think catz is not a pro (only pro in terms of money pool and not wanna challenge better player ??)
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On June 20 2011 07:13 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 07:00 Bagi wrote:
How can you claim the games are that "freaking close" when the Koreans haven't lost a single series in DH? When in MLG, the Koreans were only eliminated by other Koreans? Sure, players like Thorzain and Idra put up a decent fight in some games - but they still lost. How many tournaments of complete statistical dominance does it take until you can admit the games aren't that "close" as you think they are?
I say they close because the individual games were close. Sure you can ignore the actual play and just look at the statistics but well that's just silly way to judge things.
Not really, because whether the games are "close" or not is such a relative term.
You say they were close, I say they really weren't, at least not in the scope of a full series - who has actual proof to support his claim?
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On June 20 2011 07:13 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 07:00 Bagi wrote:
How can you claim the games are that "freaking close" when the Koreans haven't lost a single series in DH? When in MLG, the Koreans were only eliminated by other Koreans? Sure, players like Thorzain and Idra put up a decent fight in some games - but they still lost. How many tournaments of complete statistical dominance does it take until you can admit the games aren't that "close" as you think they are?
I say they close because the individual games were close. Sure you can ignore the actual play and just look at the statistics but well that's just silly way to judge things.
Winning is all that ever matters. Koreans went something like 26-3 at MLG and are currently 23-1 at Dreamhack. Almost all Sc2 games are 'close' until one guy loses, it's how the game works.
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On June 20 2011 07:09 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 07:05 BroodjeBaller wrote:On June 20 2011 07:00 Bagi wrote:
How can you claim the games are that "freaking close" when the Koreans haven't lost a single series in DH? When in MLG, the Koreans were only eliminated by other Koreans? Sure, players like Thorzain and Idra put up a decent fight in some games - but they still lost. How many tournaments of complete statistical dominance does it take until you can admit the games aren't that "close" as you think they are?
Calling it racism is a pretty non-related argument tbh. I just want an exciting tournament from a spectators POV, but so far they don't seem to deliver. Im quite sure the vast majority of the people do find tournaments like mlg, tsl, dreamhack exciting. You are a minority. I do find the overall tournament exciting, as well as the foreigner games and such. I just find that the Koreans take away from the excitement rather than add to it.
You're in a minority there. Far, far more people watch GSL than watch IGN Pro League (discounting Korean viewers), clearly most people want to see the best players regardless of nationality.
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I see so it's no longer about how close the skill is or the growth. It's just about winning.
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I don't understand why people don't find games featuring koreans exciting. I mean, I get to see the best players performing in mostly nail biting games, I love that!. MC vs losira on MLG was amazing, MMA destroying everyone with his insane multitasking was spectacular.
What foreigners need to do is practice more if they want to be up to korean's standards. Idra himself has been noted to be practicing only 3 hours a day for a while now. How does he expect to defeat MC, who practices like 10+ hours daily, in a starcraft-filled environment with some of the best players in the world, and has to play imporant matches around the world like, everyday?
Of course he'll get crushed. As huk's great performance shows, it's the work ethic which makes koreans so skilled at this game. Foreigners need to adapt or die. Now that they're fully dedicating themselves into it, I expect Nani, T-Zain, Sase, and FXO players to rise above the rest of the foreigners, with korean like training.
I think money right now is an issue, but if events keep bringing koreans in (and thus, the viewer counts: Make no mistake, koreans increase viewer counts), sponsors will make a stronger appearance, and then foreigners will be able to dedicate themselves to training. But it requires a lot of commitment to match koreans, it's sort of a lifestyle, and I'm not sure most foreigners have the mindset required to adopt it.
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On June 20 2011 07:19 Numy wrote:
I see so it's no longer about how close the skill is or the growth. It's just about winning.
When has it ever not been about winning? Winning is all that ever matters in any competitive sport anywhere.
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The day we start barring players from major tournaments due to the sole reason of them being too good is the day I stop watch esports. I can't believe people are actually suggesting this.
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On June 20 2011 07:19 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 07:09 Bagi wrote:On June 20 2011 07:05 BroodjeBaller wrote:On June 20 2011 07:00 Bagi wrote:
How can you claim the games are that "freaking close" when the Koreans haven't lost a single series in DH? When in MLG, the Koreans were only eliminated by other Koreans? Sure, players like Thorzain and Idra put up a decent fight in some games - but they still lost. How many tournaments of complete statistical dominance does it take until you can admit the games aren't that "close" as you think they are?
Calling it racism is a pretty non-related argument tbh. I just want an exciting tournament from a spectators POV, but so far they don't seem to deliver. Im quite sure the vast majority of the people do find tournaments like mlg, tsl, dreamhack exciting. You are a minority. I do find the overall tournament exciting, as well as the foreigner games and such. I just find that the Koreans take away from the excitement rather than add to it. You're in a minority there. Far, far more people watch GSL than watch IGN Pro League (discounting Korean viewers), clearly most people want to see the best players regardless of nationality.
I love watching GSL and Korean vs Korean, because I know they'll be evenly matched and the skill level is extremely high.
I don't particularly enjoy Koreans vs foreigners so far, because I can tell who is going to win 95% of the time before the games even start.
See the difference?
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EPT
