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On June 17 2011 13:37 Davion wrote:
Reading the comments I just had the thought: How did the Korean league start? I know for a fact that the Starcraft cult in Korea wasn't something that happened overnight. It took dedicated players and people making risky choices in order for it to grow and expand to the size it has today. So I feel that you have make the same choices and the same risky "business," except for the fact that you have something to work off from. Korean, relatively, started their Starcraft movement from scratch. The U.S already had a huge fan base and you have to tap into that as a resource, not necessarily in the streaming sense, but in the sense that fans = commercial potential and commercial potential = potential sponsors. And I have to agree with alot of the above said statements in that your chances of winning should be a motivation of practicing and training hard instead of trying to filter in and segregate the regional leagues until the U.S. pro scene is comfortable enough to allow Koreans in. You guys are professional GAMERS, as in you play games, which means that first and foremost you have a passion for the game. I feel that this is being looked at by catz (as well as many others probably,) as something too far into the business means of things,
Korean league started from bunch of PC bangs tournament... but nowaday, we don't need PC bang in order to compete a game tournament. We have sick internet and there are so many online tournaments instead of PC bang tournament.
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Coaches, pro houses and all that stupid nonsense don't make the players, they just help them.
Yes, help them get to a level of mechanical efficiency that is hard to match if you don't have the time to spend on turning your wrist into a weapon of mass destruction like they do. We don't have that yet. But we will someday
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
On June 17 2011 13:51 Jedi Master wrote:
MLG Columbus without the Koreans would have been pretty boring.
It would have also been much smaller and less profitable. But in catz's twisted logic, that would be good for western esports. :\
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On June 17 2011 13:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Yes, help them get to a level of mechanical efficiency that is hard to match if you don't have the time to spend on turning your wrist into a weapon of mass destruction like they do. We don't have that yet. But we will someday
Yeah. Fucking Korean pro houses. That's the reason why Flash got so good. Because he was in a pro house right?
No. It was HARD WORK. And if it's a matter of time PLENTY of foreign players RIGHT NOW are doing it full time as well so that's NO EXCUSE.
On June 17 2011 13:45 rotegirte wrote:
let's draw a parabel: imagine soccer would only have 1 fat ass tournament, huge prizepool, best players, walla walla. nothing else. wow, pretty cool. sure, all the little ronaldo's and beckham's would love to be on the top one day. sadly they won't make it out of the gutter without someone in town to play with, to fail in their churches' community tournament, get beaten by their school coach to stop doing drugs, get an bench-warmer offer by scouts of the second best team in their regional division, advance to the national league as the youngest player in history. you get the drift.
now there is a historical romanticism involved in pro-gaming. "warriors" that conquered their way through just with their sheer will and their thruthful 12$ dell mouse. what does make for a great story is inapplicable for real life. history has the tendendy to repeat itself. we have seen countless of games being at the brink and beyond. as much as everybody wants to believe, SC2 is nowhere near a "safe state". for all we know this shit could be over by the next recession.
now what you, Catz, want is perfectly reasonable. an enviroment that not only feeds the top 1%, but is also able to curate talent out of itself. but frankly, I just don't see enough money involved yet.
...That "parabel" made no sense.
What the fuck are you comparing with these someones in towns coaches who stop you from doing drugs and bench warmer scouts?
Is this supposed to be a comparison to the family who support.. what?
Most tournaments are open to the public like the Tactic3d Open tournament which featured like 1000 amateurs.
"This shit" lasted THROUGH this recession and GREW during it.
That isn't a valid threat to the growth of eSports but I would love to hear what Hallucinations you can create.
Other than that there is no real argument there... Just meaningless rhetoric.
So what's perfectly reasonable?
An esports environment that rewards players for hiding from skilled players?
There's PLENTY of money being thrown around. How much money do you need, how many tournaments do you need because look to the right of this post and you'll see DAMN PLENTY OF THEM.
Maybe the solution should be barring players who are too skilled from competing.
So it would be "fair".
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On June 17 2011 13:45 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 13:02 toastnbutter wrote:
i think some of you guys are bashing catz for the wrong reasons. this is what i take away from catz's thoughts:
he just wants to see the foreign e-sports scene to become more fully developed first in their respective regions. and by that i mean for e-sports to eventually become a legitimate competition in the eyes of a John Smith who would otherwise hear the word "e-sports" and go "wtf is that?".
let's take professional soccer or basketball or any other major sport as an example. each country has their own developed leagues for such sports. and within each of those leagues are their own teams who compete amongst each other. and once in a while there are prestigious global events where these leagues compete against one another for a World Title (example: Olympics, etc.)
i think catz just means that he would like to see the foregin e-sport scenes to develop nicely on their own and catch up tp the developed Korean scene before they try to compete together. that's not to say that if a Korean player wanted to come to MLG they can't...they most certainly are welcome to come over to compete. however, it'd be better for the foreign scene if these players decided they wanted to compete by living in the foreign scene. (example: Yao Ming of the NBA)
that's just my take on CatZ's ideas. im not agreeing or disagreeing with him, i just feel like people are bashing his thoughts for no reason or bashing him because they are misunderstanding the points being made. now there is a historical romanticism involved in pro-gaming. "warriors" that conquered their way through just with their sheer will and their thruthful 12$ dell mouse. what does make for a great story is inapplicable for real life. history has the tendendy to repeat itself. we have seen countless of games being at the brink and beyond. as much as everybody wants to believe, SC2 is nowhere near a "safe state". for all we know this shit could be over by the next recession. .
Except that's exactly how pro-gaming works? Did you even watch/read the interviews of any of the GSL winners/runner ups? Fruitdealer and MKP both said their families looked down on their hobby and they had to play in secret until they actually got far in the tourney to be proud of it. That's fairly rags to riches.
Also, there is no hypothetical 'super tournament' as you mentioned, not even the GSL. If it were, then MLG and Dreamhack wouldn't be as popular as they are. The reality of it is that the foreign scene is fairly strong:
1) Economically, the foreign scene is LARGER than the Korean scene. It is a well known complaint amongst Korean players that they don't have ENOUGH tournaments because of GOM's contract monopoly.
2) Skill-wise, Europe is not far from Korea. MMA himself said Thorzain would do well in GSL, and Thorzain + Naniwa will be going to Korea to compete. The only region that is far behind is North America. So if you want to complain about Korea from a NA perspective, you might as well bitch about Europeans coming and 'ruining' the NA scene as well.
Because if you look at tournament results, Europeans have consistently dominated North American players. Yet you don't see Catz whining about Europeans, probably because him and people like you want to create an 'Us vs Them' mentality amongst the Western scene, when in reality it's just North America that is struggling in terms of skilled players.
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On June 17 2011 13:20 Rekrul wrote:
But yeah being a Korean gamer is very imba. If you're a non-korean gamer you have to balance your game playing with earning money and your real life.
If you're Korean you just sit around playing games all day eating 2 cent ramyun and becoming gosu.
Yeah that sure stopped grrr from winning osl. From what I read he didn't really practice that much either compared to koreans. So far in this thread from OP on has been excuses. Too many dollar signs in the eyes and less focus on beating the next opponent.
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i don't agree with the idea that being inclusive is the best way of growing the NA scene or the broader foreign scene.
i do think catz's PoV is more realistic than the "hurrr im just going to get better and that's that" PoV some of you are giving. remember, catz is speaking as a player and, at the time, a team leader. he's not a tournament manager or spectator/casual/amateur/whatever. foreign teams are trying to copy both the korean infrastructure (living arrangements and sponsors) and the practicing style. if the korean scene grew from within without having to face down farther advanced players in a completely different region, then it does make sense that strictly growing from within would be a viable way to make the NA/foreign player scene strong(er).
i think it's likely that foreign players, not having people like boxer or many of the other former BW pros as coaches and/or teammates, will continue to fall behind the korean scene (there are many other things korean sc2 players have going for them) until a solid system, one that can rival korea's, is in place for practicing and coaching.
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On June 17 2011 14:03 taintmachine wrote:
i think it's likely that foreign players, not having people like boxer or many of the other former BW pros as coaches and/or teammates, will continue to fall behind the korean scene (there are many other things korean sc2 players have going for them) until a solid system, one that can rival korea's, is in place for practicing and coaching.
...A lot of players are on teams with these magical systems.
Maybe not without coaches but they sure seem to be doing a good job without them.
TSL3
MLG: IdrA
Today, NASL.
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I'm a big supporter of competition. Bringing over top Korean players forces people to work harder, to be more innovative, etc. Stifling competition in trying to protect the foreigner scene just hurts it competitively.
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On June 17 2011 11:47 DirtYLOu wrote:
Who cares what Catz think anyway?
User was warned for this post
I have to agree with this guy
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On June 17 2011 13:36 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 13:31 dizzy101 wrote:
Stopped reading at the equation. Who the @#$ knows what C or G or I means? Why make this stuff more complicated than it is? Explaining requires making things simpler, not harder. It's meaningless jargon to try and make him sound more authoritative. Essentially it's saying that money earned should be used to re-invest in itself and make even more money, but that's a faulty line of reasoning considering people who get tournament winnings don't take that money and re-invest in esports.
I don't use fancy charts and equations to impress people and force my opinion on them, that's unproffessional. Hate journalists who manipulate that (not my preffession though, I mainly dabble in ecology/chemistry, so I know that you need to back your stuff up by concrete data, but enough about me). Whenever I fuck up, I do so because I was ignorant on certain parts (well, or all) of the subject.
I suppose it can be argued that it's not a self sustaining economy, but if you add the sponsors, the players and the teams, tournament organisers it starts looking more like it. Maybe. BUT I don't think you can argue that koreans taking prize money off of NASL, MLG, whatever-else-LG does not help foreign players sustain themselves (a good soldier is a soldier with a full belly - or something like that). So there is at least some sort of a negative impact to foreign scene caused by Korean scene and it's just an interesting aspect. Now if there's more pro's than cons is an entirely different matter. I only went into one side of it.
Simple thing that CatZ is saying: we need domestic as well as international competitions.
Not a korean hater, by the way. I like watching IdrA vs the world as anyone else does. Again, this argument is purely about managment of (Starcraft) eSports, kind of left vs right wing politics, protectionarism vs free market. No hate.
P.S. I didn't go into full explanation of what each letter means as I didn't find the rest as relevant, but here's the full formula and symbol meanings.
GDP (Y) is a sum of Consumption (C), Investment (I), Government Spending (G) and Net Exports (X - M).
Y = C + I + G + (X − M)
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On June 17 2011 14:03 taintmachine wrote:
i don't agree with the idea that being inclusive is the best way of growing the NA scene or the broader foreign scene.
i do think catz's PoV is more realistic than the "hurrr im just going to get better and that's that" PoV some of you are giving. remember, catz is speaking as a player and, at the time, a team leader. he's not a tournament manager or spectator/casual/amateur/whatever. foreign teams are trying to copy both the korean infrastructure (living arrangements and sponsors) and the practicing style. if the korean scene grew from within without having to face down farther advanced players in a completely different region, then it does make sense that strictly growing from within would be a viable way to make the NA/foreign player scene strong(er).
i think it's likely that foreign players, not having people like boxer or many of the other former BW pros as coaches and/or teammates, will continue to fall behind the korean scene (there are many other things korean sc2 players have going for them) until a solid system, one that can rival korea's, is in place for practicing and coaching.
It worked for Korea because they were already ahead and leading.
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I still think 'prohouse' is not necessary in SC2 scene.
this is not BW. There is no latency difference whether you are in team house or not.
Poltprime,Nestea,Mvp,Excrement etc.. so many Top tier Koreans live in their own house and doing great job. Mvp,Nestea? they are even the best of best player in da world.
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On June 17 2011 14:08 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 14:03 taintmachine wrote:
i think it's likely that foreign players, not having people like boxer or many of the other former BW pros as coaches and/or teammates, will continue to fall behind the korean scene (there are many other things korean sc2 players have going for them) until a solid system, one that can rival korea's, is in place for practicing and coaching. ...A lot of players are on teams with these magical systems. Maybe not without coaches but they sure seem to be doing a good job without them. TSL3 MLG: IdrA Today, NASL.
4 koreans enter MLG columbus with hundreds of foreigners present (dozens of top foreigners), and 3 take the top 3 spots. idra trained in korea and placed behind them. the koreans won the gsl world tournament. koreans are doing very well in the nasl, despite obvious latency issues, but yea, they didn't do as well in the tsl.
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On June 17 2011 14:12 MidnightSun001 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 13:36 Ocedic wrote:On June 17 2011 13:31 dizzy101 wrote:
Stopped reading at the equation. Who the @#$ knows what C or G or I means? Why make this stuff more complicated than it is? Explaining requires making things simpler, not harder. It's meaningless jargon to try and make him sound more authoritative. Essentially it's saying that money earned should be used to re-invest in itself and make even more money, but that's a faulty line of reasoning considering people who get tournament winnings don't take that money and re-invest in esports. I don't use fancy charts and equations to impress people and force my opinion on them, that's unproffessional. Hate journalists who manipulate that (not my preffession though, I mainly dabble in ecology/chemistry, so I know that you need to back your stuff up by concrete data, but enough about me). Whenever I fuck up, I do so because I was ignorant on certain parts (well, or all) of the subject. I suppose it can be argued that it's not a self sustaining economy, but if you add the sponsors, the players and the teams, tournament organisers it starts looking more like it. Maybe. BUT I don't think you can argue that koreans taking prize money off of NASL, MLG, whatever-else-LG does not help foreign players sustain themselves (a good soldier is a soldier with a full belly - or something like that). So there is at least some sort of a negative impact to foreign scene caused by Korean scene and it's just an interesting aspect. Now if there's more pro's than cons is an entirely different matter. I only went into one side of it. Simple thing that CatZ is saying: we need domestic as well as international competitions. Not a korean hater, by the way. I like watching IdrA vs the world as anyone else does. Again, this argument is purely about managment of (Starcraft) eSports, kind of left vs right wing politics, protectionarism vs free market. No hate. P.S. I didn't go into full explanation of what each letter means as I didn't find the rest as relevant, but here's the full formula and symbol meanings. Show nested quote +
GDP (Y) is a sum of Consumption (C), Investment (I), Government Spending (G) and Net Exports (X - M).
Y = C + I + G + (X − M)
Well many has already pointed out, based on the current status, a domestic compeitions wouldn't draw enough viewers and sponsors to fill the belly, you're imagining what if those money in your hand when it wouldn't even exists in the first place.
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Yeah. Fucking Korean pro houses. That's the reason why Flash got so good. Because he was in a pro house right?
Never said that's why Flash got so good.
No. It was HARD WORK. And if it's a matter of time PLENTY of foreign players RIGHT NOW are doing it full time as well so that's NO EXCUSE.
A pro house can make getting that HARD WORK in a little more practical than it is trying to do it on your own. A little more convenience.
I'm sure PLENTY of foreign players RIGHT NOW are doing it full time and yet they are still losing en masse to Koreans and you can see the difference in the mechanics and metagaming.
There are PLENTY of foreigners who have just as much potential as any Korean player, just as much talent, just as much craving for knowledge of the game, but what I am saying is that being able to live in a place where you can dedicate yourself to turning that talent into skill and acquiring that knowledge without having to worry about pretty much any other concerns is a luxury that does give benefits that a lot of top foreigners can't get that way, they have to find other ways to do it, and from the results of tournaments it seems that they still have some work to do.
If getting better is a matter of time spent playing to acquire knowledge of the game and improving brain-eye-hand coordination to implement that knowledge, obviously being in a pro house will usually provide more benefit than not being in one. You can put all your focus on SC2. You can't do that outside a pro house right now, it seems like.
Also I don't get the CAPS.
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On June 17 2011 14:02 Ocedic wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 17 2011 13:45 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 13:02 toastnbutter wrote:
i think some of you guys are bashing catz for the wrong reasons. this is what i take away from catz's thoughts:
he just wants to see the foreign e-sports scene to become more fully developed first in their respective regions. and by that i mean for e-sports to eventually become a legitimate competition in the eyes of a John Smith who would otherwise hear the word "e-sports" and go "wtf is that?".
let's take professional soccer or basketball or any other major sport as an example. each country has their own developed leagues for such sports. and within each of those leagues are their own teams who compete amongst each other. and once in a while there are prestigious global events where these leagues compete against one another for a World Title (example: Olympics, etc.)
i think catz just means that he would like to see the foregin e-sport scenes to develop nicely on their own and catch up tp the developed Korean scene before they try to compete together. that's not to say that if a Korean player wanted to come to MLG they can't...they most certainly are welcome to come over to compete. however, it'd be better for the foreign scene if these players decided they wanted to compete by living in the foreign scene. (example: Yao Ming of the NBA)
that's just my take on CatZ's ideas. im not agreeing or disagreeing with him, i just feel like people are bashing his thoughts for no reason or bashing him because they are misunderstanding the points being made. now there is a historical romanticism involved in pro-gaming. "warriors" that conquered their way through just with their sheer will and their thruthful 12$ dell mouse. what does make for a great story is inapplicable for real life. history has the tendendy to repeat itself. we have seen countless of games being at the brink and beyond. as much as everybody wants to believe, SC2 is nowhere near a "safe state". for all we know this shit could be over by the next recession. . Except that's exactly how pro-gaming works? Did you even watch/read the interviews of any of the GSL winners/runner ups? Fruitdealer and MKP both said their families looked down on their hobby and they had to play in secret until they actually got far in the tourney to be proud of it. That's fairly rags to riches.
And that is how things should be?
On June 17 2011 14:02 Ocedic wrote:Also, there is no hypothetical 'super tournament' as you mentioned, not even the GSL. If it were, then MLG and Dreamhack wouldn't be as popular as they are. The reality of it is that the foreign scene is fairly strong:
1) Economically, the foreign scene is LARGER than the Korean scene. It is a well known complaint amongst Korean players that they don't have ENOUGH tournaments because of GOM's contract monopoly.
2) Skill-wise, Europe is not far from Korea. MMA himself said Thorzain would do well in GSL, and Thorzain + Naniwa will be going to Korea to compete. The only region that is far behind is North America. So if you want to complain about Korea from a NA perspective, you might as well bitch about Europeans coming and 'ruining' the NA scene as well.
Because if you look at tournament results, Europeans have consistently dominated North American players. Yet you don't see Catz whining about Europeans, probably because him and people like you want to create an 'Us vs Them' mentality amongst the Western scene, when in reality it's just North America that is struggling in terms of skilled players.
Granted, I may have to specify my argument. I for one couldn't care less for who actually wins stuff. I was only chiming in on Catz's general baseline of "there should be more in-between". Whether or not this is already the case is debatable. As tiresome as it is, traditional sports again: The time where the US basically was Basketball, and this discpline was non-existant everywhere else. It took an awful lot of time and developtment to produce the foreign players that have become less and less "anomalies" in the NBA. That have managed to cross the pond. Now did these wake up one day, decided to train hard in their own backyard and buy a one-way ticket?
No, they went through a sophisticated system, allowing them taking one step at a time. A system that in itself was sustainable. Nowitzki wouldn't be where he is today, without the system already in place when he grew up here in Germany.
My personal criticism with this is simple, it's utopia still. SC2 is not on that level yet and Catz''s generation of players may never experience it (let alone poor Boxer). It shouldn't stop you from considering that throwing money/numbers/hype at the problem may not be what increases the chances of SC2 in the long run.
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I have to say i agree with CatZ and OPs arguments. To me online qualifiers are not fair. Its all about commitment. I am pretty much sure koreans players are laughing so hard inside...
You have to go to korea to play in the GSL (or even to try to qualify) and they would not change that. Why? because they want to protect their money.
and online games have something boring to me... but thats something else i guess.
anyways, here is my hint of a solution : Put up two booths in the NASL studios.
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On June 17 2011 14:12 MidnightSun001 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 13:36 Ocedic wrote:On June 17 2011 13:31 dizzy101 wrote:
Stopped reading at the equation. Who the @#$ knows what C or G or I means? Why make this stuff more complicated than it is? Explaining requires making things simpler, not harder. It's meaningless jargon to try and make him sound more authoritative. Essentially it's saying that money earned should be used to re-invest in itself and make even more money, but that's a faulty line of reasoning considering people who get tournament winnings don't take that money and re-invest in esports. I don't use fancy charts and equations to impress people and force my opinion on them, that's unproffessional. Hate journalists who manipulate that (not my preffession though, I mainly dabble in ecology/chemistry, so I know that you need to back your stuff up by concrete data, but enough about me). Whenever I fuck up, I do so because I was ignorant on certain parts (well, or all) of the subject. I suppose it can be argued that it's not a self sustaining economy, but if you add the sponsors, the players and the teams, tournament organisers it starts looking more like it. Maybe. BUT I don't think you can argue that koreans taking prize money off of NASL, MLG, whatever-else-LG does not help foreign players sustain themselves (a good soldier is a soldier with a full belly - or something like that). So there is at least some sort of a negative impact to foreign scene caused by Korean scene and it's just an interesting aspect. Now if there's more pro's than cons is an entirely different matter. I only went into one side of it. Simple thing that CatZ is saying: we need domestic as well as international competitions. Not a korean hater, by the way. I like watching IdrA vs the world as anyone else does. Again, this argument is purely about managment of (Starcraft) eSports, kind of left vs right wing politics, protectionarism vs free market. No hate. P.S. I didn't go into full explanation of what each letter means as I didn't find the rest as relevant, but here's the full formula and symbol meanings. Show nested quote +
GDP (Y) is a sum of Consumption (C), Investment (I), Government Spending (G) and Net Exports (X - M).
Y = C + I + G + (X − M)
I like how you tell us how you're this smart ecology/chemistry scientist who loves to provide concrete evidence and not give meaningless metaphors and rhetorical devices. Because I never would have known that until you told me. Enough about you.
...Tournament money has NO affect on the tournaments themselves since they're already giving it away. It doesn't matter who.
And it's very easy for you to "preffessionally" say that esports is like a country's gross domestic product. That there just HAS to be "at last some sort of a negative impact to foreign scene that's an interesting aspect" is not an argument.
And... no. It's we need to be sheltered from international competition. I think. CatZ isn't exactly giving us an exceptionally clear viewpoint.
Gee, thanks for telling us that you don't hate Koreans. That it's just about how we, the Western eSports world, need to be protected from the Koreans. And how it's just like politics (what?). No hate.
AND WHY DID YOU COMPARE IT SPECIFICALLY TO GDP IF YOU ONLY FOUND 1 PART OF IT TO BE RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION?!
Don't drop names of important economic indicators to help your argument.
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pathetic, embarrassing. play to be the best, to prove to yourself, play because you want to compete and your a competitive person and want to be the best, don't lockout certain populations to give yourself motivation or make it easy for you. look up the word "competitor", and anyone who has ever accomplished anything great would only want to play and compete with the best. people who make history don't run from the competition, they want it, they salivate to play with the best, to beat the best of the best! all the greatest achievements in history...
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EPT
