Catz's argument explained - Page 7

On June 17 2011 14:27 UnderWorld_Dream wrote:
I have to say i agree with CatZ and OPs arguments. To me online qualifiers are not fair. Its all about commitment. I am pretty much sure koreans players are laughing so hard inside...

You have to go to korea to play in the GSL (or even to try to qualify) and they would not change that. Why? because they want to protect their money.

and online games have something boring to me... but thats something else i guess.

anyways, here is my hint of a solution : Put up two booths in the NASL studios.

On June 17 2011 14:25 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Never said that's why Flash got so good.

A pro house can make getting that HARD WORK in a little more practical than it is trying to do it on your own. A little more convenience.

I'm sure PLENTY of foreign players RIGHT NOW are doing it full time and yet they are still losing en masse to Koreans and you can see the difference in the mechanics and metagaming.

There are PLENTY of foreigners who have just as much potential as any Korean player, just as much talent, just as much craving for knowledge of the game, but what I am saying is that being able to live in a place where you can dedicate yourself to turning that talent into skill and acquiring that knowledge without having to worry about pretty much any other concerns is a luxury that does give benefits that a lot of top foreigners can't get that way, they have to find other ways to do it, and from the results of tournaments it seems that they still have some work to do.

If getting better is a matter of time spent playing to acquire knowledge of the game and improving brain-eye-hand coordination to implement that knowledge, obviously being in a pro house will usually provide more benefit than not being in one. You can put all your focus on SC2. You can't do that outside a pro house right now, it seems like.

Also I don't get the CAPS.

On June 17 2011 14:33 namedplayer wrote:


-_-

dumbest thing I've ever heard.

On June 17 2011 14:42 Von wrote:
I totally understand what Catz is saying in his own words in the vid.

I think he is very clear and shouldn't need extra explanations and drama swirling around because people can't *listen*

He and makes good points. I also happen to totally agree with what he's saying.

On June 17 2011 14:45 Gamegene wrote:


Nobody is trying to explain anything except the OP.
We understand what he's trying to say, we don't agree with it.

On June 17 2011 14:49 XenoX101 wrote:
For those that are arguing that Esports makes money from their viewerbase, I feel you are missing the point of this thread. Yes it helps the viewership to bring the best players from all over the world to play in the tournament, but it does not help any of the players themselves.

Imagine for a second that you are fighting to make your mark in StarCraft II, but every tournament you enter even locally has the best players from korea dominating it left right and center, and you simply cant compete with these players. Now imagine that you are trying to make a living doing this, and are investing 8+ hours a day only to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - the koreans. Would you see entering these tournaments as a feasible way to make a living and put your name on the board?

It's admittedly quite exciting to watch your favourite korean players dominating in these big tournaments, but we have to remember that behind every winner there are umpteen more losers, and how fun is it really to watch . And when it is so convenient and easy for the best players (who happen to be koreans for SC2) in the world to casually join any of these tournament (its free, essentially), they will not hesitate to take up the opportunity and they will win. The chances of you winning despite all the effort you put in are slim to nothing if you are consistently facing these players no matter how big or small the tournament is. So given this would you make a living working 8+ hours a day if you had a 0.1% chance (and for most players we're being generous here) of earning more than a bare wage that you can't live off?

It's like an amateur mountain climber attempting to climb Everest, this is why Divisions are necessary. This is why when you ladder you aren't instantly paired with IdrA or KiWiKaKi, they are too far up in skill for you to have even the slightest chance of winning by more than accident. It would be hugely unmotivating and would not help you learn at all because anything you did right, would be entirely overshadowed by what you did wrong (which may not even be much but enough for the best players to beat you). There's a reason you don't start school at university doing a PhD, students need the appropriate environment to progress in, one that is above their level but only so much as that they can be challenged.

With this said I do believe there should still be some global leagues held in America, Europe and all over, but these should not be the only leagues giving a pay out to pro gamers. Local and national leagues need to exist like in every other sport so that up and coming players have a healthy environment to train while making a sustainable wage in winning tournaments that they can win, so that they don't spend 8+ hours a day training for nothing.

On June 17 2011 14:59 legaton wrote:
Catz arguments are bullshit because he considers (rightly, if you are a pro-gamer) prizes are a form of revenue, when they are actually are a cost for the organizers.

On June 17 2011 14:49 XenoX101 wrote:
For those that are arguing that Esports makes money from their viewerbase, I feel you are missing the point of this thread. Yes it helps the viewership to bring the best players from all over the world to play in the tournament, but it does not help any of the players themselves.

Imagine for a second that you are fighting to make your mark in StarCraft II, but every tournament you enter even locally has the best players from korea dominating it left right and center, and you simply cant compete with these players. Now imagine that you are trying to make a living doing this, and are investing 8+ hours a day only to get shot down by the well established highly refined play of the absolute best - the koreans. Would you see entering these tournaments as a feasible way to make a living and put your name on the board?

It's admittedly quite exciting to watch your favourite korean players dominating in these big tournaments, but we have to remember that behind every winner there are umpteen more losers, and how fun is it really to watch . And when it is so convenient and easy for the best players (who happen to be koreans for SC2) in the world to casually join any of these tournament (its free, essentially), they will not hesitate to take up the opportunity and they will win. The chances of you winning despite all the effort you put in are slim to nothing if you are consistently facing these players no matter how big or small the tournament is. So given this would you make a living working 8+ hours a day if you had a 0.1% chance (and for most players we're being generous here) of earning more than a bare wage that you can't live off?

It's like an amateur mountain climber attempting to climb Everest, this is why Divisions are necessary. This is why when you ladder you aren't instantly paired with IdrA or KiWiKaKi, they are too far up in skill for you to have even the slightest chance of winning by more than accident. It would be hugely unmotivating and would not help you learn at all because anything you did right, would be entirely overshadowed by what you did wrong (which may not even be much but enough for the best players to beat you). There's a reason you don't start school at university doing a PhD, students need the appropriate environment to progress in, one that is above their level but only so much as that they can be challenged.

With this said I do believe there should still be some global leagues held in America, Europe and all over, but these should not be the only leagues giving a pay out to pro gamers. Local and national leagues need to exist like in every other sport so that up and coming players have a healthy environment to train while making a sustainable wage in winning tournaments that they can win, so that they don't spend 8+ hours a day training for nothing.

On June 17 2011 14:57 Itsmedudeman wrote:
please point to an example where all the tournaments are being invaded by koreans because I only see the major tournaments with large prize money being attended by them

the only reason they're a MAJOR tournament to begin with is because they include the highest level of competition

if Catz wants an easy road then I'm sure there's a ton of amateur tournaments going around with 500 dollar prize pools

if he wants the NASL and it's large prize pool to somehow be able to maintain its viewership while being a joke competitively then good luck trying to accomplish that. We can also probably expect MLG to raise its prize pool in the future if its success keeps up