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On June 17 2011 12:44 Diks wrote:
Yeah, some local leagues couldn't hurt ESPORTS. Every country should have one.
People needs to remember that location matters A LOT for sponsors. A local brand will never sponsor a player that mainly plays in foreign tournaments.
I thought there's already IPL where only NA can join ?
and the Germany's DeSBL ?
I know SEA have our own local league even though the prize pool are quite low
So I dont understand why all these hostility against Korean coming from when in fact there are already exclusive league in the Western scene
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Some people in this thread are way too idealistic to understand where catz is coming from.
You need to understand why people do things. You could say for each action there's an incentive and a capability and each is worthless without the other. If I am incapable of doing something, it doesn't matter how great the incentive is. If I'm capable, it's still not worth doing if there's no incentive.
This is the binary example though, and things are never that black and white. So let's break it down from a starcraft perspective. I'll also note that capability in this instance really refers to ability to fulfill potential though practice, so opportunity cost is definitely brought into the picture from a player perspective.
Incentive
Top Korean players are national figures that can reach stardom. Others can realistically make at least living salaries even if they don't make it big. What's missing from the foreign scene? Making it big. You tell an average person in a "foreign" country you play starcraft professionally, and you will get nothing but questions and blank stares. Starcraft players are not respected outside of the (relatively) small starcraft community in the their own countries.
So, while people in South Korea can play for pretige AND money, foreign players can mostly just play for money. Conclusion: Koreans are more incentivized to play starcraft than foreigners.
Capability
Everyone here is familiar with a team house environment. Many players, a coach, and nothing but starcraft all day. A perfect way to raise skill. Foreigners can accomplish this too though right? Well of course! The problem? There is a huge piece of the equation missing! Unless done systemically these houses have little effect on overall skill. You're only as good as the people you play against and if you have the only team house and everyone else you know doesn't, perhaps you'll be marginally better than them... but that's it.
The point? Many team houses competing is a far better learning environment than a single isolated house. Conclusion: Koreans posses more capability to become good at starcraft.
So to recap, Korean players have both higher capability AND incentive when compared to foreign players. To convince players to sacrifice opportunity cost of other carreers, additional incentives must be added. One of the largest incentives for foreign players right now is prize money. If players with higher incentives and capabilities compete for the same prize money... guess who wins the prize money?
NOBODY is saying all Koreans should be banned from all foreign events. Instead, I leave a word of caution that their scene could "smother" ours and stunt its growth.
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On June 17 2011 15:21 A3iL3r0n wrote:
Why does the US win most of the medals most of the time? The US spends the most money on its athletes. It has nothing to do with racism or anything, just money.
one: that's not definitively accurate. two: money does not equal results. three: sports and esports are different areas of competition. three: EG is probably has the most income from all their various sponsors, but only IdrA (seems) to be doing well, and that was a result from the rigorous practice he puts on himself (and all the practice he put in BEFORE he joined EG). four: did i ever mention race? I only said COUNTRIES.
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On June 17 2011 15:30 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On June 17 2011 15:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:what kind of stupid example is this? they don't go to the olympics because they can't, it's not analogous at all Of course they can. Just be good enough and get elected into the team. Because they are not on the olympic team, clearly they must suck, no? That's what you do by implying someone is "taking the easy route". Other's only see the need in necessary intermediate steps on the way to the top. That it is not sufficient to pour all attention, effort and money top-down. That this method may only last for so long. Some specific tournament like NASL is not even the point of the whole topic anyway. Of course there are tons of tournaments. But the disparity is huge between the tiers. Some organizations like Complexity and VVV are already realizing it may be more intelligent to carve out a path all the way from the bottom, with their academy project.
And no one gives a shit about high school competitions or would want to watch them.
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On June 17 2011 15:33 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:21 A3iL3r0n wrote:
Why does the US win most of the medals most of the time? The US spends the most money on its athletes. It has nothing to do with racism or anything, just money.
one: that's not definitively accurate. two: money does not equal results. three: sports and esports are different areas of competition. three: EG is probably has the most income from all their various sponsors, but only IdrA (seems) to be doing well, and that was a result from the rigorous practice he puts on himself (and all the practice he put in BEFORE he joined EG). four: did i ever mention race? I only said COUNTRIES.
It really does though...US has enough money for athletes to devote all their time to stuff, proper training, experts, etc.
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This pseudoeconomic argument is garbage. The goal of various tournaments and sponsors isn't to pay the salaries of players, it's to create a tournament that is compelling to top players, which in turn will draw viewers, which in turn will draw ad revenue and create (in theory) some sort of growing ecosystem. This is why Korean players get invited to tournaments -- they increase the viewership, which in turn increases the revenue of the tournaments and their financial backers, which allows them to put on bigger, more compelling tournaments in the future.
Money paid by North American tournaments to North American players isn't money that recirculates within the Starcraft community, it's money that players use to pay their expenses. More money paid to them means that they can live a more comfortable lifestyle, but there really aren't any positive effects for viewers if NA pros get paid more. It's clear that what really matters from the perspective of the long-term viability of eSports is the amount of money flowing in from external sponsors and tournaments, and this amount is directly related to how compelling the product they are putting out is. As a result, they want to appeal to the largest possible audience, and this is only possible if they invite the best players possible. At this stage in the development of Starcraft 2, when there is a league with the best production values, the best players, and the best announcers (i.e., GSL), a league which features strictly inferior players is a tough sell.
We don't measure the success of professional sports leagues by how much they pay their players (and indeed its in the interests of a franchise to pay their players the smallest amount that they can still get them to compete for), but rather by how much the franchises earn.
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On June 17 2011 15:27 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:09 Aleph One wrote:
TLDR: I think Catz is right. SC2 doesn't just need the big name competitions, it needs regional leagues too (minor leagues, if you will), so less skilled players can get their friends interested in competitive gaming. Also, having local players allows regional-based rivalries to form, which is the best way to get average shmucks to care.
Are you trolling? There are SO MANY tournaments available right now. Just take 60 seconds and go look at the upcoming events list.... so many things.... If you click on the SC2 Tournaments forums there are constantly new tournaments some of which are for players bronze to platinum only, female only, or anyone allowed regardless of their ranking. As a BW player who was 'good' but never 'one of the best' I would have been all over the tournament scene when i was younger because there are tournaments every other day it seems. Sadly i'm an old man and have to work for a living, but I think the tournament scene is a royal feast compared to any other game in any other time period. As far as rivalries go.... Zenio and IdrA..... MC and IdrA..... IdrA and _____.... Players make rivalries and it doesn't matter if they are from Korea or Antarctica. It only takes one player choosing to create a rivalry for there to be one. IdrA is pretty good at this if you haven't noticed. All-in-all i want to watch the BEST players play regardless of the flag they bare. By shutting out all Koreans you not only make the foreigner scene weaker, you push people who like to see the game played to the fullest away. I realize we're the minority, but I also believe we're the most loyal and passionate.
I disagree. I'm a fan of MMA, and while UFC has the best fighters, other promotions are fun to watch too. But your stance ignores the fact that the foreign scene needs money in order to fuel their growth as players and be the best they can be. Direct competition with Korea is not going to make the foreign scene better. The foreign scene will get better with more money which equals more people wanting to play, more talent to choose from, better talent rises to the top, there's money there to make those people want to keep playing, etc.
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On June 17 2011 15:33 Kantutan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:30 rotegirte wrote:[B]On June 17 2011 15:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:what kind of stupid example is this? they don't go to the olympics because they can't, it's not analogous at all Of course they can. Just be good enough and get elected into the team. Because they are not on the olympic team, clearly they must suck, no? That's what you do by implying someone is "taking the easy route". Other's only see the need in necessary intermediate steps on the way to the top. That it is not sufficient to pour all attention, effort and money top-down. That this method may only last for so long. Some specific tournament like NASL is not even the point of the whole topic anyway. Of course there are tons of tournaments. But the disparity is huge between the tiers. Some organizations like Complexity and VVV are already realizing it may be more intelligent to carve out a path all the way from the bottom, with their academy project. And no one gives a shit about high school competitions or would want to watch them.
And you truly believe sports as it exists right now would be possible without the support and systematic organization of every tier below the top-league?
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On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote:
All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money.
does it really hurts? There are bunch of small tournaments that koreans can't participate in. Foreigners are earning more money than most of koreans because of that.
also Foreigners teach, Foreigners earn salary, Foreigners get better sponsors.
Are they practicing harder than Koreans? no.
Are they better than Koreans? no.
Are they earning more money than Koreans? Hell yeah.
even Korean SC2 reporters admitted that. Foreigners has better environment in terms of income.
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Saying the money doesn't circulate back to the scene is silly. The difference between working hard for 3 months on a tournament and making $15000 to making in that same time $1000 is the difference between playing SC2 as a full-time occupation for a year and doing it in your spare time from your full-time job. Players are forced to spend their time coaching and streaming ladder games to make money instead of practicing vs. high quality practice partners at a team house because of money. That is the difference between long-term scene success and being able to compete with Koreans and long-term amateur values.
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On June 17 2011 15:36 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:33 Kantutan wrote:On June 17 2011 15:30 rotegirte wrote:[B]On June 17 2011 15:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:what kind of stupid example is this? they don't go to the olympics because they can't, it's not analogous at all Of course they can. Just be good enough and get elected into the team. Because they are not on the olympic team, clearly they must suck, no? That's what you do by implying someone is "taking the easy route". Other's only see the need in necessary intermediate steps on the way to the top. That it is not sufficient to pour all attention, effort and money top-down. That this method may only last for so long. Some specific tournament like NASL is not even the point of the whole topic anyway. Of course there are tons of tournaments. But the disparity is huge between the tiers. Some organizations like Complexity and VVV are already realizing it may be more intelligent to carve out a path all the way from the bottom, with their academy project. And no one gives a shit about high school competitions or would want to watch them. And you truly believe sports as it exists right now would be possible without the support and systematic organization of every tier below the top-league?
Sure everything needs a lower-skill tier to pick talent from, but do any players who aren't the very best get paid well or receive much fame? No. Even junior players in hockey playing at an extremely high level get little attention or money. So since you were trying to make an analogy out of it, if NA banned the very best competition and became a sub-par region, you can bet they'll have far less viewers and far less money flowing in.
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In a way, Catz is right - if foreign players can't live off playing Starcraft, they will never be as good as foreigners, and if koreans take all the top prizes in the foreign scene, the foreign players will never be able to live off playing Starcraft.
HOWEVER. Since there is so much Starcraft content which is very easily accessible, and due to various factors people don't really care about the players' nationalities etc, I doubt any kind of 'regional' leagues or whatever could ever become very big. Take koreans out of NASL / Dreamhack / etc, and I can guarantee you, the viewers count will plummet - because really, who wants to watch the 'mediocre' players (no offense to anyone!), when they can watch GSL instead.
The casual viewers might not even notice the difference in quality of play or w/e between regions, and rather root for their favorites from the western scene - but if all the more 'hardcore' fans only seriously discuss Korean events, and scoff at the foreign ones because they are not 'as good', it's not like the casual viewers will keep their interest in it either.
I think right now is really the big turning point where foreign teams need to make a bit of a sacrifice and really invest into their practice rather than trying to cash in on some dough right now by streaming / showing off in interviews etc - because if Koreans keep galloping ahead in practice hours, it's just going to be BW all over again, really.
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On June 17 2011 15:33 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:21 A3iL3r0n wrote:
Why does the US win most of the medals most of the time? The US spends the most money on its athletes. It has nothing to do with racism or anything, just money.
one: that's not definitively accurate. two: money does not equal results. three: sports and esports are different areas of competition. three: EG is probably has the most income from all their various sponsors, but only IdrA (seems) to be doing well, and that was a result from the rigorous practice he puts on himself (and all the practice he put in BEFORE he joined EG). four: did i ever mention race? I only said COUNTRIES.
One, what I said is completely accurate, All-Time Olympic Medal Totals. Two, have you ever heard of the fucking Yankees? You put three again (four): Where did Idra get all that practice before EG? On a Korean pro-team. (Five,) Sports and eSports exactly are the same in the way they need money to provide the competitors time and training resources to be the best they can be.
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On June 17 2011 15:43 A3iL3r0n wrote:One, what I said is completely accurate, All-Time Olympic Medal Totals. Two, have you ever heard of the fucking Yankees? You put three again (four): Where did Idra get all that practice before EG? On a Korean pro-team. (Five,) Sports and eSports exactly are the same in the way they need money to provide the competitors time and training resources to be the best they can be.
I'm not disputing the fact that the US wins the most medals; I'm arguing that it's not definitively proven that there the US or the Yankees (whatever) wins the most because of the money. I'm not disputing the fact that esports and sports athletes need money. I'm saying that the EXCESS of money does not RESULT in more WINS, though it certainly can help.
And what's stopping anybody from practicing more?
Does not being on a Korean Pro team prevent anyone from practicing more?
A lot of foreign players have enough income from sponsorships to sustain themselves financially; does not having more money bar them from practicing more?
IdrA quit his team and STILL KEPT PRACTICING DURING THE BETA.
On June 17 2011 15:32 Azuzu wrote:
NOBODY is saying all Koreans should be banned from all foreign events. Instead, I leave a word of caution that their scene could "smother" ours and stunt its growth.
The words unspoken are the most dangerous.
And honestly could any Professionals reading this post please?
Are you guys discouraged by Koreans coming to the US or is it just CatZ.
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What a bogus argument. The only thing that matters to E-sports right now is getting a shitton of viewers. This is how it works
1: Get a ton of viewers
2: More sponsors take notice
3: More money flows into the scene
4: #3 will profit everyone
And the easiest way to achieve #1 is to bring in the best of the best. What better way to get hype and attention? I sure woudn't watch a competition with only NA players.
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Did you just imply that only Americans, or whatever group it is that you seem to exclude Peruvians from, can be racist? Either way, you cannot say he complains about locale and then bring up the fact that he is not from North America as some form of evidence, and the fact doesn't fit in with an argument about Korean starcraft infrastructure versus the world, as Peru obviously falls into the latter category.
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On June 17 2011 15:39 namedplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote:
All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money. does it really hurts? There are bunch of small tournaments that koreans can't participate in. Foreigners are earning more money than most of koreans because of that. also Foreigners teach, Foreigners earn salary, Foreigners get better sponsors. Are they practicing harder than Koreans? no. Are they better than Koreans? no. Are they earning more money than Koreans? Hell yeah. even Korean SC2 reporters admitted that. Foreigners has better environment in terms of income.
Do you have any figures or sources to back that up?
Even if we say for the sake of argument that the US SC2 scene has more money than only the KOR SC2 scene, you still have to take into account all of the built-in knowledge of the coaches from BW, all of the established practice habits, gaming houses available, a good segment of their population wants to be pro-gamers, meaning high competition from a large talent pool = the best of the best. All of that has a monetary value that was paid for by BW. Without looking at the numbers, you can surely bet that as a whole, the Korean scene has way more going for it than the foreign scene. The foreign needs more money to boost their infrastructure up to that level.
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On June 17 2011 15:44 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:32 Azuzu wrote:
NOBODY is saying all Koreans should be banned from all foreign events. Instead, I leave a word of caution that their scene could "smother" ours and stunt its growth. The words unspoken are the most dangerous. And honestly could any Professionals reading this post please? Are you guys discouraged by Koreans coming to the US or is it just CatZ.
There were some concerns in the past on SotG that the Korean invites getting a free pass into the championship bracket of MLG would jeopardise the legitimacy of the championship bracket and accumulation of points for the finals.
But that's not what CatZ is concerned about. He's complaining that Korean's get to participate in a north american online tournament for a big prize pool without having to fly over to the US, and that is akin to taking money out of western e-sports.
If the Koreans had an online tournament for a large prize pool, which didn't require players to fly over to Korea (and somehow manage to give the players KR accounts), you bet your bottom dollar that north americans would jump on the opportunity to take money out of the korean e-sports scene.
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1. CatZ is racist – FALSE - he doesn‘t agree with koreans competing in NASL, not because of their race, but locale. Remember he, himself, is Peruvian, competing in the USA.
Well, that one‘s easy, let‘s do another one.
Locale, race, he's discriminating against them simply because of where they are from, it doesn't matter how you try to spin it. That's not an easy one, that's flat out wrong. and just because he's peruvian doesn't mean shit. If someone is asian, and they don't like black people, guess what, they're racist, just because they're asian themselves, doesn't make them not racist. wtf kind of bullshit logic is that.
2. CatZ wants to win more money and is afraid of korean competition – FALSE – this argument is of purely economical inclination, Paolo is saying that the prize money should stay and circulate in the foreign Starcraft scene – I will go into deeper detail on this in a second.
also false, you talk about the exporting of money going to koreans, but you COMPLETELY ignore the fact that having koreans involved INCREASES the revenue of the western scene because of subscribers/viewers/etc. The set cost of the money going out is effectively gone the moment it is put up for grabs, it's no longer in the hands of the US, it's in the hands of whoever wins it, whether it be korean, japanese, chinese, or american.
I don't even know how you can call your post an 'article'
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On June 17 2011 15:41 Kantutan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:36 rotegirte wrote:On June 17 2011 15:33 Kantutan wrote:On June 17 2011 15:30 rotegirte wrote:[B]On June 17 2011 15:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:what kind of stupid example is this? they don't go to the olympics because they can't, it's not analogous at all Of course they can. Just be good enough and get elected into the team. Because they are not on the olympic team, clearly they must suck, no? That's what you do by implying someone is "taking the easy route". Other's only see the need in necessary intermediate steps on the way to the top. That it is not sufficient to pour all attention, effort and money top-down. That this method may only last for so long. Some specific tournament like NASL is not even the point of the whole topic anyway. Of course there are tons of tournaments. But the disparity is huge between the tiers. Some organizations like Complexity and VVV are already realizing it may be more intelligent to carve out a path all the way from the bottom, with their academy project. And no one gives a shit about high school competitions or would want to watch them. And you truly believe sports as it exists right now would be possible without the support and systematic organization of every tier below the top-league? Sure everything needs a lower-skill tier to pick talent from, but do any players who aren't the very best get paid well or receive much fame? No. Even junior players in hockey playing at an extremely high level get little attention or money. So since you were trying to make an analogy out of it, if NA banned the very best competition and became a sub-par region, you can bet they'll have far less viewers and far less money flowing in.
You wouldn't call out the Premier League on "banning" teams, just because Barca or Bayern München are not allowed to play in it?
The sum per capita may be low for every individual in said low tiers, but don't underestimate the overall investment that is being taken by ruling organizations, suppliers, advertisers and top-teams promoting future talents.
Banning Koreans from every tournament was never considered. Did you even read Catz's post? I am repeating myself here, fact is we are far away from such a state of "stable enviroment". But to say major actors within the community -that have the means to actually influence things- from players to organizations must never think about long-term developtment, but only creater bigger and bigger bubbles for the very top is concerning.
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EPT
