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On June 17 2011 15:44 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:32 Azuzu wrote:
NOBODY is saying all Koreans should be banned from all foreign events. Instead, I leave a word of caution that their scene could "smother" ours and stunt its growth. The words unspoken are the most dangerous. And honestly could any Professionals reading this post please? Are you guys discouraged by Koreans coming to the US or is it just CatZ.
Ask yourself this question.... There are two tournaments being hosted at the exact same time and by signing up for one you cannot sign up for the other due to time restrictions. Each tournament awards the same prize pool, however, one tournament has much better players in it than the other.
I would suspect that virtually everyone would pick the tournament with weaker players. The outliers would be the independently wealthy... the Richard Bronson's of sc2 which I think are few and far between.
I've played a LOT of shitty RTS games solely for the purpose of winning local tournaments. I've won 2 alienware computers, video cards, headphones, keyboards and the competition was completely awful except when Pillars would show up (he did this too). I'm no pro at sc2, but if we had local tournaments I think I'd represent well which is very similar to the argument you guys are making.
My example is good for ME, bad for the SCENE which is why I'll always side for bringing in the best possible players for sc2.
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Catz makes a good point. It's like the NA grandmaster league vs. the Korean grandmaster league, they have their own regional divisions in which they compete. I don't see why this couldn't be applied to tournaments as well.
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On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote:lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses". It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer". I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges. Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example. Anyways not trying to be the bad guy here, and im not gonna argue much on this thread, this is what I believe we need in order to see something like this: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/koreastarcraft.jpg/ outside of korea.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
Comparing Starcraft leagues would be like comparing the NBA to the Chinese Basketball Association (CBA).
If you keep things segregated, there's nothing pushing the weaker league and they'll hit an artificial skill ceiling due to lack of competition to motivate them.
NBA players have only gotten better, CBA, at a slower rate. This shows when national teams meet in the Olympics or World Basketball Championship and the skill gap is enormous.
You could also use Major League Soccer and the English Premiership or Spanish La Liga as another example.
If your motivation to get better is ($) then I'm sorry, you're in this for the wrong reasons. Yes money is a necessity to live, but it should be your competitive drive to succeed as a gamer that fuels you. If it's money you want, then pursue a career doing something else, or help the e-Sports scene in some other way besides being a player. Have you ever thought that it's simply a lacking of natural talent and different work ethic that is causing this gap? You can fight as much as you want to protect the scene in North America, but when it comes time to benchmark yourself, if you're naturally not a talented enough player, you still won't be good.
Those who are meant to be pro-gamers will succeed regardless through hardwork, how do you think players like MarineKing became good? Practice, getting thrown in to face the big boys and learning from it.
You keep using the infrastructure argument. But there are players in MLG that aren't living in a practice house, that still did better than you, and better than players living in practice houses in North America. What is your excuse for that? Maybe they're simply better players, and there's no shame in admitting that.
There's so much I want to say, but knowing you, you won't even bother replying so it seems like a waste of effort.
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On June 17 2011 15:56 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:44 Gamegene wrote:On June 17 2011 15:32 Azuzu wrote:
NOBODY is saying all Koreans should be banned from all foreign events. Instead, I leave a word of caution that their scene could "smother" ours and stunt its growth. The words unspoken are the most dangerous. And honestly could any Professionals reading this post please? Are you guys discouraged by Koreans coming to the US or is it just CatZ. Ask yourself this question.... There are two tournaments being hosted at the exact same time and by signing up for one you cannot sign up for the other due to time restrictions. Each tournament awards the same prize pool, however, one tournament has much better players in it than the other. I would suspect that virtually everyone would pick the tournament with weaker players. The outliers would be the independently wealthy... the Richard Bronson's of sc2 which I think are few and far between. I've played a LOT of shitty RTS games solely for the purpose of winning local tournaments. I've won 2 alienware computers, video cards, headphones, keyboards and the competition was completely awful except when Pillars would show up (he did this too). I'm no pro at sc2, but if we had local tournaments I think I'd represent well which is very similar to the argument you guys are making. My example is good for ME, bad for the SCENE which is why I'll always side for bringing in the best possible players for sc2.
How does having weaker foreign players stay weak help the scene?
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On June 17 2011 15:57 FrostFire626 wrote:
Catz makes a good point. It's like the NA grandmaster league vs. the Korean grandmaster league, they have their own regional divisions in which they compete. I don't see why this couldn't be applied to tournaments as well.
I would imagine that, if a world existed where NA KR and EU players could play against each other without lag, that the pro's would prefer to have a global grandmaster's ladder to compete on, rather than the segregated region locking we have now. Any pro that wouldn't want this simply doesn't want to compete with the best
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On June 17 2011 15:03 XenoX101 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 14:59 legaton wrote:
Catz arguments are bullshit because he considers (rightly, if you are a pro-gamer) prizes are a form of revenue, when they are actually are a cost for the organizers. A cost for the organizers, you answered your own argument.
But the organizers point of view is the only one relevant for this problem. Catz talks about the growth of the NA scene and reinvesting money, except you don't reinvest COSTS. Costs supports the players, they have zero impact on the reproduction of a tournament. You have to create and reinvest a part of your benefits "to help the scene grow". Benefits are indexed on the viewership, either because they are paying (pay per view) or indirectly, through sponsors. On a competitive environment (lots of tournaments at the same time), you need to have the better product to appeal the consumer. And let's not forget the market niche for e-sports is small. At best, we are talking about half a million viewers in the entire world -minus Korea (450000 unique IP for MLG), all of them using the internet as media for consumption. There is not such a thing as a "local" scene, you only have small tournaments. As soon as you start streaming, you are competing against the whole world.
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On June 17 2011 15:58 ct2299 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote:lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses". It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer". I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges. Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example. Anyways not trying to be the bad guy here, and im not gonna argue much on this thread, this is what I believe we need in order to see something like this: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/koreastarcraft.jpg/ outside of korea. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Comparing Starcraft leagues would be like comparing the NBA to the Chinese Basketball Association (CBA). If you keep things segregated, there's nothing pushing the weaker league and they'll hit an artificial skill ceiling due to lack of competition to motivate them. NBA players have only gotten better, CBA, at a slower rate. This shows when national teams meet in the Olympics or World Basketball Championship and the skill gap is enormous. You could also use Major League Soccer and the English Premiership or Spanish La Liga as another example. If your motivation to get better is ($) then I'm sorry, you're in this for the wrong reasons. Yes money is a necessity to live, but it should be your competitive drive to succeed as a gamer that fuels you. If it's money you want, then pursue a career doing something else, or help the e-Sports scene in some other way besides being a player. Have you ever thought that it's simply a lacking of natural talent and different work ethic that is causing this gap? You can fight as much as you want to protect the scene in North America, but when it comes time to benchmark yourself, if you're naturally not a talented enough player, you still won't be good. Those who are meant to be pro-gamers will succeed regardless through hardwork, how do you think players like MarineKing became good? Practice, getting thrown in to face the big boys and learning from it. You keep using the infrastructure argument. But there are players in MLG that aren't living in a practice house, that still did better than you, and better than players living in practice houses in North America. What is your excuse for that? Maybe they're simply better players, and there's no shame in admitting that. There's so much I want to say, but knowing you, you won't even bother replying so it seems like a waste of effort.
How did the Koreans ever get better when there were no foreign leagues to compete with? Oh that's right, they developed their own scene and proceeded to beat the piss out of every guy practicing really hard in his parents' basement.
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I would also like to say I really like what Rekrul has said in this thread.
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On June 17 2011 15:56 starcraft911 wrote:
Ask yourself this question.... There are two tournaments being hosted at the exact same time and by signing up for one you cannot sign up for the other due to time restrictions. Each tournament awards the same prize pool, however, one tournament has much better players in it than the other.
Apparently if they're the same country as you there's nothing you can do about it. But if the better players are from a different one you get to complain that they're destroying your local scene.
On June 17 2011 15:50 Phaded wrote:
But that's not what CatZ is concerned about. He's complaining that Korean's get to participate in a north american online tournament for a big prize pool without having to fly over to the US, and that is akin to taking money out of western e-sports.
If the Koreans had an online tournament for a large prize pool, which didn't require players to fly over to Korea (and somehow manage to give the players KR accounts), you bet your bottom dollar that north americans would jump on the opportunity to take money out of the korean e-sports scene.
It's not about "taking money out of each other's scenes".
It's about winning tournaments. And prize money IS ALWAYS TAKEN OUT OF WESTERN E-SPORTS.
It's not like MC took his GSL winnings and invested it in streaming services for the GSL.
Western Prize money is NEVER going to be put back into tournaments, no matter who wins, and it's always EXPECTED to be lost by tournaments.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On June 17 2011 15:13 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:09 Aleph One wrote:
TLDR: I think Catz is right. SC2 doesn't just need the big name competitions, it needs regional leagues too (minor leagues, if you will), so less skilled players can get their friends interested in competitive gaming. Also, having local players allows regional-based rivalries to form, which is the best way to get average shmucks to care.
-=-
I think the analogy to professional sports is spot on. What would dramatically improve popularity and overall skill level would be regional minor leagues or tournaments. The obvious way to organize these would be people in gaming cafes putting together tournaments for the other people who play there. Unfortunately, gaming cafes are much less common and less populated than in Korea, so there isn't this amateur base to work from.
I think a lot of people are ignoring the impact that smaller, less competitive leagues could have. A lot of people don't watch their city's sports teams religiously, but most parents watch nearly every single one of their kid's soccer games. School team games bring out not only parents but also friends and other kids from the school. Sure, the players aren't anywhere near as skilled as the professionals, but the spectators can feel like they are personally invested in the game. Having been drawn to the sport because of a personal connection, they are more likely to develop an interest in the sport by itself.
Let me ask you this: do you personally know any professional basketball players? If not, do you know any people who played basketball in high school, or in pickup games? I suspect a lot more people will answer yes to the second question than the first, and I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption. The last question is: if you answered no to question 1 and yes to question 2, has that person ever talked to you about basketball, or asked you to watch a game with them?
That's the way sports really grow in popularity. Not by having incredibly skilled professionals performing superhuman feats, but by small amateur communities forming that grow organically. For example, nobody is going to view chess-boxing as anything more than an oddity unless they know (and respect) someone doing it.
I firmly believe that SC2 can't just be a one-tier competition (i.e. professional or not). If you don't believe me, ask blizzard. Do they throw every player into one big league and say "get better if you want to win?" No, they've divided the players by overall skill and then subdivided them into divisions of 100 people. Once a player is placed correctly, they have a goal that is actually reachable: play better than 99 other players of roughly the same skill to achieve rank 1 of their division. I think that's actually a really good idea with one glaring flaw, which is that blizzard gives you no reason to care other than the number. You don't know any of the people in your division, you never talk to them, and it's rare that you would ever play against them. Battlenet is horrible at drawing you into anything resembling a community, so the only interaction you have with your division mates is watching numbers go up and down.
For esports to really take off, there need to be REAL communities. If gaming cafes were as popular here as they are in korea they could offer regular small-prize tournaments where the competitors could actually meet each other, from which the winners could go on to compete in regional competitions. In some cities this might actually be feasible, but it would take a lot of grassroots effort to really get going. For myself, I'm thinking about starting an inter-departmental league at my university next year.
That's fine and good to say, but is completely unrelated to the current tournament situation. You're basically saying ESPORTS can expand by having MORE tournaments. Well... no shit? That's the whole point of expanding ESPORTs? It's easy to say that: so go do something about it. You want a regional competition in your area? Then start one. Most of us enjoy having the 'big competitions' to watch. In fact, we want MORE. The players want MORE. It's too bad we live in a world where wishing for more didn't equate to the problem getting solved. Sitting around whining about the lack of tournaments is easy, how about try contributing and fixing the problem instead of whining about things beyond the control of others?
I think it's related to the current situation because all of the money is focused on just a handful of major tournaments. This kinda reminds me of the complaints people had for the GSL prize distribution - too top heavy. Off course this will motivate people to be the best, but it wasn't that sustainable of a model when SC2 first came out since only the top 16 got a significant amount of prize money while everyone else (17th to everyone who went to the offline qualifiers) got very little or nothing at all. Now that we have teams and players are getting salaries, the top heavy prize pool has less of an effect.
I think it would help develop the 'home grown' scene if the money can be distributed further down the line to 'semi-pro' tournaments. But this will be hard because it doesn't really benefit the major players involved (pro players, teams, and sponsors) - 1. why would a sponsor want to give money to a small tournament, where it isn't as cost effective as a big tournament, to advertise their brand? 2. why would a pro player/team want less money for the big tournaments?
So far, we are not at the point where Koreans dominate foreigners like BW, but I'm just wondering how likely sponsors are going to stick with an unsuccessful foreign scene with no potential for growth? I suppose that they could just be using the sponsorship as another form of advertising....but wouldn't they want to be associated with the best players/teams?
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On June 17 2011 15:39 Kazius wrote:
Saying the money doesn't circulate back to the scene is silly. The difference between working hard for 3 months on a tournament and making $15000 to making in that same time $1000 is the difference between playing SC2 as a full-time occupation for a year and doing it in your spare time from your full-time job. Players are forced to spend their time coaching and streaming ladder games to make money instead of practicing vs. high quality practice partners at a team house because of money. That is the difference between long-term scene success and being able to compete with Koreans and long-term amateur values.
thank you
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In all honesty Catz spoke a pretty valid point. Esports will certainly grow faster if everyone competing lived in the US. But the way it is now, its all fragmented and across the globe.
If MC won a tournament and i saw vods of him celebrating in korea that'd be great, and mucho props to him; But oddly enough i feel like if i saw MC or idra or anyone else celebrating victory in chicago, or a bar in new york or whatever, it'd just have a different impact.
In a nutshell i agree with cats. If they had to be living here or whatever that would mean more SC2 houses, more opportunities for people, more motivation because it's closer and more accessable and more people in esports.
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On June 17 2011 16:08 JBright wrote:
I think it's related to the current situation because all of the money is focused on just a handful of major tournaments. This kinda reminds me of the complaints people had for the GSL prize distribution - too top heavy. Off course this will motivate people to be the best, but it wasn't that sustainable of a model when SC2 first came out since only the top 16 got a significant amount of prize money while everyone else (17th to everyone who went to the offline qualifiers) got very little or nothing at all. Now that we have teams and players are getting salaries, the top heavy prize pool has less of an effect.
I think it would help develop the 'home grown' scene if the money can be distributed further down the line to 'semi-pro' tournaments. But this will be hard because it doesn't really benefit the major players involved (pro players, teams, and sponsors) - 1. why would a sponsor want to give money to a small tournament, where it isn't as cost effective as a big tournament, to advertise their brand? 2. why would a pro player/team want less money for the big tournaments?
So far, we are not at the point where Koreans dominate foreigners like BW, but I'm just wondering how likely sponsors are going to stick with an unsuccessful foreign scene with no potential for growth? I suppose that they could just be using the sponsorship as another form of advertising....but wouldn't they want to be associated with the best players/teams?
Erm???
What game are you watching?
There are PLENTY of small tournaments. Seriously. Go look at the tournament tracker.
This scene is EXPLODING. Maybe you only watchMLG and GSL, but if you haven't noticed there are THOUSANDS of tournaments that have been going on.
And the mere fact that there is are so many tournaments is pretty much proof that companies are on board with sponsoring them because no regular joe is going to give away money to players and hold tournaments.
If you want more proof go watch them and see all the logos.
Unsuccessful?
FOREIGN PLAYERS ARE DOING SO FUCKING WELL RIGHT NOW.
It's just now that people are getting in a hubub because of MLG.
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Rekrul has it right in this case. This isn't some lofty impossible goal that the Koreans are so good we need to keep them out. What I and I believe the majority of the fans want is players playing at the best they can,pushing the limits of the ability they have and giving us entertaining games to enjoy.
I don't consider Catz racist nor do I consider him greedy or scared, however I do disagree with him and I disagree with you.
I want Catz to get better, I want him to be able to go toe to toe with anyone be they a member of EG or a member of OGS. How can he if he never plays the folks from the lofted Korean teams? While I do find the NASL's non North American participants kind of ironic it's no more so then the Global Starcraft II league having mostly Korean players.
Such is the nature of the tournaments. In the end the best players should play. It's fairly simple is it not?
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On June 17 2011 15:48 A3iL3r0n wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:39 namedplayer wrote:On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote:
All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money. does it really hurts? There are bunch of small tournaments that koreans can't participate in. Foreigners are earning more money than most of koreans because of that. also Foreigners teach, Foreigners earn salary, Foreigners get better sponsors. Are they practicing harder than Koreans? no. Are they better than Koreans? no. Are they earning more money than Koreans? Hell yeah. even Korean SC2 reporters admitted that. Foreigners has better environment in terms of income. Do you have any figures or sources to back that up? Even if we say for the sake of argument that the US SC2 scene has more money than only the KOR SC2 scene, you still have to take into account all of the built-in knowledge of the coaches from BW, all of the established practice habits, gaming houses available, a good segment of their population wants to be pro-gamers, meaning high competition from a large talent pool = the best of the best. All of that has a monetary value that was paid for by BW. Without looking at the numbers, you can surely bet that as a whole, the Korean scene has way more going for it than the foreign scene. The foreign needs more money to boost their infrastructure up to that level.
I can show you a reply from PlayXP reporter but my English isn't good enough to translate the whole thing. maybe somebody will.
Ethan_Ahn (2011-05-27 20:08:43 KST)
굉장히 잘못된 생각을 가지고 계신 분들이 있으신데요..
해외 게이밍 팀의 경우 한국보다 많은 후원을 받고 있습니다. (스타1 기업 구단 제외) 글로벌 회사에서 후원해주는 금액도 적지 않습니다. 물론 그만큼 성적으로 보답하고 지속적인 브랜드 노출을 해줘야겠지요.
한국에 지사를 두거나 수입사를 둔 회사들은 e스포츠 마케팅 자체를 병적으로 꺼려합니다. 자신들이 어린시절 단순히 놀고 즐겼던 오락실의 그것과 같다는 생각을 하고 있으며, 그 돈이면 차라리 연예인 단발계약해서 광고하는게 이득이다고 합니다. 그래서 한국 팀들이 국내에서 후원을 따내는거란 하늘의 별따기입니다.
반면, 해외 팀들은 본사에 직통으로 제안을 넣고 진행을 하기 때문에 큰 제약없이 성사 시킬 수 있습니다. 또, 그 회사들 역시 e스포츠와 게임에 큰 메리트를 가지기 때문에 보다 쉽게 일을 진행 할 수 있습니다.
해외 팀들의 스폰서는 조금만 확인해보시면 쉽게 아실 수 있을겁니다. 인텔, msi, 레이저, 스틸시리즈, 웨스턴 디지털, 도시바 등등 PC하드웨어 및 주변기기 업체들 하나씩은 모두 그들을 후원합니다.
이 같이 후원의 차이가 나는 이유는 조금만 알아보면 쉽게 알 수 있습니다. 한국의 수입사나 지사들은 큰 능력이 있지 않습니다. (회사들 마다 다르겠지만) 본사에서 각 대륙별로 지사 관리를 합니다. 아시아, 유럽, 북미, 남미 등등으로 나뉘죠. 그럼 한국은 본사도 아닌 아시아의 수많은 지사를 관리하는 아시아 퍼시픽과 교류합니다. 즉, 본사가 아시아 퍼시픽에 물건을 팔고, 아시아 퍼시픽이 아시아에 위치한 지사/수입사 들에게 물건을 팔아서 남는 차액으로 마케팅을 하게 되는 겁니다.
한 단계 거치면서 마진의 폭은 점점 줄어드는 게 당연하기 때문에 최하위체라 할 수 있는 국내 지사/수입사는 가용할 수 있는 예산자체가 적거나 없습니다.
결론은 그들은 한국의 팀들보다 더 좋은 환경에서 편하게 선수 생활을 누리고 있다라는 것입니다. 그렇게 때문에 그들에게 절박함을 바란다는 것은 어찌보면 무리일 수도 있다는 생각입니다.
the point is, Foreigner teams earn money from a company's head office that literally have a lot of money, but Korean teams earn money from Korean branch which has much less margin.
so even if IM has a sponsor of coca-cola, the support from coca-cola isn't as good as foreigner's because it is from Korean branch.
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On June 17 2011 15:58 ct2299 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:27 coL.CatZ wrote:lol surprised to see this brought up again, you're right about what I ment to say for the most part. Its not just about economics of esports, its more of a spiral effect I supposse, but also about players outside of korea to keep up with koreans, Rekrul says "if you wanna compete with the koreans get better, simple as that" But the truth is there's a lot less motivation for an up-and-comming scene to get better as individuals if there is less money involved. Koreans came to MLG and it was great, the crowd was amazing, bigger than before, and they had to come over to compete here, I have nothing against koreans. But I do still think that in order for E-Sports to grow outside of korea as it has in korea, we need the players that LIVE outside of korea to have the proper motivation to stay on par or catch up to koreans. Koreans aren't genetically better at games than the rest of us are, I don't believe. But they have a scene that has been built up for years, much better infrastructure and a much larger following/acceptance of their community. Sure its tougher, there's more competition, but that's exactly the point im trying to make, there is also more motivation to become the very best, there is more motivation to make "pro houses". It's ok to be a 'professional gamer' in korea, not even that, its great to be one. In the west, a lot of people would be afraid to say they're professional gamers ( before people start talking without base, by this I mean making $/living off the game, not skill ), When I say im a professional gamer, I have to explain for the following 10 minutes what that means and how its possible to generate revenue off of it. Last time I had to explain this to a couple of my friends that came over TT1 was sitting next to me and he said something like "I can't believe you told em that, im always to embarrassed to say im a professional gamer". I have a degree and I could easily work in my field, but I would much rather do this, I clearly enjoy it a lot more. To sum things up, for Esports to grow in the west, to become widely accepted, to become a big industry, I believe we need local, home grown talent and in order for this home grown talent (the players) to keep up with the koreans skill-wise and to have a comparable following, they need proper motivation ($). Its much like college footbal or basketball in a sense too, If you threw the same players right off the bat to the NFL or the NBA, they would probably suck and never get better if you throw a first year college basketball team into the major leagues and tell them the prizepool is sick, I doubt they'd train as much or pursue basketball as a career as if they were playing other colleges. Still PLENTY people watch college basketball, and its incredibly likely that these players you're watching right now will become the big stars of tomorrow and everyone knows that, but first they need to be let grow, by putting them in leagues that they honestly believe they can win. Its not as extreme with starcraft 2, because I believe forgeiners CAN still compete with koreans, altough the gap seems to be growing every time, its still small in comparison to broodwar for example. Anyways not trying to be the bad guy here, and im not gonna argue much on this thread, this is what I believe we need in order to see something like this: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/koreastarcraft.jpg/ outside of korea. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Comparing Starcraft leagues would be like comparing the NBA to the Chinese Basketball Association (CBA). If you keep things segregated, there's nothing pushing the weaker league and they'll hit an artificial skill ceiling due to lack of competition to motivate them. NBA players have only gotten better, CBA, at a slower rate. This shows when national teams meet in the Olympics or World Basketball Championship and the skill gap is enormous. You could also use Major League Soccer and the English Premiership or Spanish La Liga as another example. If your motivation to get better is ($) then I'm sorry, you're in this for the wrong reasons. Yes money is a necessity to live, but it should be your competitive drive to succeed as a gamer that fuels you. If it's money you want, then pursue a career doing something else, or help the e-Sports scene in some other way besides being a player. Have you ever thought that it's simply a lacking of natural talent and different work ethic that is causing this gap? You can fight as much as you want to protect the scene in North America, but when it comes time to benchmark yourself, if you're naturally not a talented enough player, you still won't be good. Those who are meant to be pro-gamers will succeed regardless through hardwork, how do you think players like MarineKing became good? Practice, getting thrown in to face the big boys and learning from it. You keep using the infrastructure argument. But there are players in MLG that aren't living in a practice house, that still did better than you, and better than players living in practice houses in North America. What is your excuse for that? Maybe they're simply better players, and there's no shame in admitting that. There's so much I want to say, but knowing you, you won't even bother replying so it seems like a waste of effort.
first of all you come off arrogant as fuck.
but anyways
the cba is actually getting better as time goes on and actually a lot of other countries are becoming better at basketball but that's not the point. it's actually way different. the cba nba example is different because it's like sc2 was released in 2014 in china while sc2 was released in 2010 for the US. the U.S is just simply farther ahead of china due to people playing the game and people having the ability to make a career out of it.
you also attack the man personally. don't ever do that while trying to argue someone point. you just look like a retard.
he never said anything about the money. he's trying to say people require money to live, and it's harder to make a career out of e-sports since in the NBA or any league you get good money, scholarships and more things are guaranteed. his point is that if money is distributed to more communities more communities will flourish.
i agree with that practicing against the best is the best way to get better. practicing is different from competing though.
and i'll reiterate this again, stop being a jerk.
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On June 17 2011 15:35 blah_blah wrote:
This pseudoeconomic argument is garbage. The goal of various tournaments and sponsors isn't to pay the salaries of players, it's to create a tournament that is compelling to top players, which in turn will draw viewers, which in turn will draw ad revenue and create (in theory) some sort of growing ecosystem. This is why Korean players get invited to tournaments -- they increase the viewership, which in turn increases the revenue of the tournaments and their financial backers, which allows them to put on bigger, more compelling tournaments in the future.
Money paid by North American tournaments to North American players isn't money that recirculates within the Starcraft community, it's money that players use to pay their expenses. More money paid to them means that they can live a more comfortable lifestyle, but there really aren't any positive effects for viewers if NA pros get paid more. It's clear that what really matters from the perspective of the long-term viability of eSports is the amount of money flowing in from external sponsors and tournaments, and this amount is directly related to how compelling the product they are putting out is. As a result, they want to appeal to the largest possible audience, and this is only possible if they invite the best players possible. At this stage in the development of Starcraft 2, when there is a league with the best production values, the best players, and the best announcers (i.e., GSL), a league which features strictly inferior players is a tough sell.
We don't measure the success of professional sports leagues by how much they pay their players (and indeed its in the interests of a franchise to pay their players the smallest amount that they can still get them to compete for), but rather by how much the franchises earn.
Exactly. Very well worded post.
My advice to people who are so worried about Koreans coming to foreign tournaments and taking all the prize money is simply to wait.
Wait until tournament organizers begin reaping the rewards of such high viewer counts. Eventually there will be so much money in the scene that prize pools will skyrocket and teams and players will start seeing more and more of that money.
Until then, players should spend their time playing semi-professionally so that they can firstly get their name out there and build up a fanbase, and secondly begin building up the infrastructure and practicing environment they will need to compete when ESPORTS truly blows up in the west.
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I love how the the OP named this thread "Catz' argument explained". Yeah you cracked the case wide open. I'm so grateful OP that you took the time to decipher this encrypted video to anyone of less than 400 IQ so that us simpletons are better able to understand this complex explanation.
Why do you feel justified to suggest your understanding of Catz psyche?
"Economically" speaking NASL is profiting 10 fold off of every individual Korean in comparison to catz. He complains of Koreans not being "here" to play. It's a universally online league, how is being "here" even an option? GSL doesn't suggest that if an American moves to Korea and qualifies for Code A that they lose their privilege to compete in the NASL, why should it differ vice-versa?
I fail to see why you've inflated catz opinion to be on the level of a professional. His record and accomplishments or lack their of speak for his legitimacy as a competitor. He is a sponsored player, no more no less, and after his showing in the NASL his opinion will matter even less to them as he has not qualified for next season.
His argument is selfish and deserves 0 attention.
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i agree and disagree  i think everyone does to an extent
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On June 17 2011 15:48 A3iL3r0n wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 15:39 namedplayer wrote:On June 17 2011 15:17 A3iL3r0n wrote:
All Catz is saying is that in order to compete with Koreans, you need money. This allows people to make it a full time job and have continuity which improves their performance etc. If Koreans win all of the North American prize money, that hurts North American pro teams.
In other words, just competing against the Koreans in tournaments isn't enough to over come them. It's about what goes into the preparation before the tournament. To catch up, the North American teams need more money. does it really hurts? There are bunch of small tournaments that koreans can't participate in. Foreigners are earning more money than most of koreans because of that. also Foreigners teach, Foreigners earn salary, Foreigners get better sponsors. Are they practicing harder than Koreans? no. Are they better than Koreans? no. Are they earning more money than Koreans? Hell yeah. even Korean SC2 reporters admitted that. Foreigners has better environment in terms of income. Do you have any figures or sources to back that up? Even if we say for the sake of argument that the US SC2 scene has more money than only the KOR SC2 scene, you still have to take into account all of the built-in knowledge of the coaches from BW, all of the established practice habits, gaming houses available, a good segment of their population wants to be pro-gamers, meaning high competition from a large talent pool = the best of the best. All of that has a monetary value that was paid for by BW. Without looking at the numbers, you can surely bet that as a whole, the Korean scene has way more going for it than the foreign scene. The foreign needs more money to boost their infrastructure up to that level.
I can confirm all of his statements as well as yours.
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EPT
