EPTCatz's argument explained - Page 11
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TI83
78 Posts
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Phayze
Canada2029 Posts
With that said, I love Koreans and I hope to see them in further tournaments but would like to see some foreigners either step up their game (whether it be by gaining the ability to practice more without cashflow constraints etc) I myself am very passionate about how e-sports is growing in the west, and like catz I just want the best growth possible in the NA scene. | ||
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drop271
New Zealand286 Posts
Edit: sorry, my point, by my own fault, has been misconstrued. The "team house argument" I'm referring to is the fact that Koreans have them, we don't, and by implication we can't. If its an advantage, as we all agree, and my post goes on to argue below, why haven't we got them? As far as I can see, all a team house is is a fucking house with computers in it. We all live in houses, pay rent, and have our own computers. If you want to get better then move in with your teammates, or other great players, instead of your friends? How is this so impossible to replicate? Its not like magic water in the taps is the key variable? These guys (foreign players) are working hard and trying to be the best in the world. Are people seriously arguing that the fact they are unwilling to move cities in order to co-locate is a major barrier? (And if that is the barrier, then that it is a justifiable excuse?) Edit: or is it because you need 10 or so players squeezed in and us westerners are too proud to share a standard bedroom with 7 other grown men in order to achieve or dreams? Again, if I'm missing something, please correct me | ||
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Benkestok
Denmark63 Posts
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DeckOneBell
United States526 Posts
That seems like a really shitty thing to do to me, though. EU is managing to churn out some pretty fantastic players that, while not always 100% consistent, are damn well in the same league as the Korean powerhouses. Nani, Thorzain, Jinro all could keep up with KR players for example. The NA pros just seem a little bit more behind (with a few exceptions, Huk seems to be doing pretty well recently for example). I'd like to think most NA pros want to challenge Koreans. Yeah, I usually root for Koreans, because I love them individually as players, like how MC just makes every game such high odds for himself (suicidetoss!) or the crazy drops from MMA recently, but even going back further, I saw more oddball strategies (that were good) and flashes of brilliance from Koreans. I don't mind being proven wrong at ALL though. I mean, I pretty much hate Idra on principle, but he tore shit up at Columbus, and he was looking very scary. He lost his momentum, and that kind of sucks, but the games he won, he crushed. And that gives me good games, even if I'm cheering against him. On June 17 2011 17:00 drop271 wrote: The teamhouse argument comes up a number of times. I think thats really strange, and if someone can clarify for me, then I'd greatly appreciate it. Team houses DO matter, but for more than just the obvious reasons. First, the obvious, the players live, breathe, and eat starcraft. They wake up, play games, talk to each other over breakfast about games, discuss games, watch each other play games, coach each other, then practice more games. It's much easier to maintain discipline in a group environment. Second, the COACHES. This is HUGE. Korean coaches put their team first and their own personal results second (and only in SC2, BW coaches are dedicated coaches, and it'll probably be that way soonish for SC2. There's only a few exceptions at the moment, like oGsTheWind). They figure out how to practice for each player, they help each player out with any problems in their gameplay, and they are available more, because they don't require as much practice (or any) as the other players. Third, camaraderie. You're going to be hard-pressed to develop a team atmosphere without having people together in a team house. You can tell this is true easily enough, by looking at, for example, the sense of just being on the same team between, say, Tyler and Jinro, vs. Jinro and Huk. The latter two players are clearly more comfortable with each other. Spend more time with people in person, you'll get to know people better. The team atmosphere is important, even for an individual sport, because people support each other. I'm sure the players involved, or players who have been involved, know much more than me about it, and in fact, I've seen posts about this stuff on TL before, but don't underestimate just living with other progamers. | ||
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inamorato
United States263 Posts
On June 17 2011 17:00 drop271 wrote: The teamhouse argument comes up a number of times. I think thats really strange, and if someone can clarify for me, then I'd greatly appreciate it. As far as I can see, all a team house is is a fucking house with computers in it. We all live in houses, pay rent, and have our own computers. If you want to get better then move in with your teammates, or other great players, instead of your friends? How is this so impossible to replicate? Its not like magic water in the taps is the key equation? These guys (foreign players) are working hard and trying to be the best in the world. Are people seriously arguing that the fact they are unwilling to move cities in order to co-locate is a major barrier? Again, if I'm missing something, please correct me Living in a team house environment isn't limited to Starcraft. Take the time to understand what this type of environment has to offer instead of coming off with half cocked questions. It is the simple fact that to improve in anything you need to grow. Growth can be achieved through the help of others. It is the same for rehabilitation. Do you see people hosting 1 house drug rehabs? No, because an environment with support, structure, and the ability to evolve an idea as a group is much more efficient than as an individual. Relying solely on yourself to flourish in anything over an opportunity to grow as a team//community is foolish. The electricity of doing something you love with a group of people all focused on the same goal opens many more doors. You have the ability to thrive on other people's ideas, dedication, and sheer love for the game when you are feeling like you're ready to give up. | ||
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drop271
New Zealand286 Posts
On June 17 2011 17:12 inamorato wrote: Living in a team house environment isn't limited to Starcraft. Take the time to understand what this type of environment has to offer instead of coming off with half cocked questions. It is the simple fact that to improve in anything you need to grow. Growth can be achieved through the help of others. It is the same for rehabilitation. Do you see people hosting 1 house drug rehabs? No, because an environment with support, structure, and the ability to evolve an idea as a group is much more efficient than as an individual. Relying solely on yourself to flourish in anything over an opportunity to grow as a team//community is foolish. The electricity of doing something you love with a group of people all focused on the same goal opens many more doors. You have the ability to thrive on other people's ideas, dedication, and sheer love for the game when you are feeling like you're ready to give up. Please read my post and refrain from calling someone half-cocked. As I said, if team houses are so important (and I agree they are) then why aren't foreign players making them? Whats the barrier? | ||
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rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
On June 17 2011 17:13 drop271 wrote: Please read my post and refrain from calling someone half-cocked. As I said, if team houses are so important (and I agree they are) then why aren't foreign players making them? Whats the barrier? Go ahead, make one. Return if you run into any problems. | ||
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sandyph
Indonesia1640 Posts
On June 17 2011 17:12 inamorato wrote: Living in a team house environment isn't limited to Starcraft. Take the time to understand what this type of environment has to offer instead of coming off with half cocked questions. It is the simple fact that to improve in anything you need to grow. Growth can be achieved through the help of others. It is the same for rehabilitation. Do you see people hosting 1 house drug rehabs? No, because an environment with support, structure, and the ability to evolve an idea as a group is much more efficient than as an individual. Relying solely on yourself to flourish in anything over an opportunity to grow as a team//community is foolish. The electricity of doing something you love with a group of people all focused on the same goal opens many more doors. You have the ability to thrive on other people's ideas, dedication, and sheer love for the game when you are feeling like you're ready to give up. again, what's stopping any 'profesional' US team to do the same in NA? Most people already have a 'house', just pick one and stay together buy some bunkbed to accomodate more people MKP said in his interview that he and Maka always talk about tactics in the bed before sleeping, so there's really nothing super secret that the Korean are doing to be better in starcraft, just sleep-play-eat-play-talk-sleep starcraft 24/7 and do it from as early as 12/13 years while staying with a bunch of strangers far away from home (yes, some of the kids in pro house come from different city as Seoul) | ||
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drop271
New Zealand286 Posts
On June 17 2011 17:18 rotegirte wrote: Go ahead, make one. Return if you run into any problems. Thats pretty much my point? Whats the barrier? (I'm not at all presuming there is no problem, but if there is, tell me what it is? I think saying "they have teamhouses, we don't, and thats why we're worse off" is an incomplete argument) | ||
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On June 17 2011 17:12 inamorato wrote: Living in a team house environment isn't limited to Starcraft. Take the time to understand what this type of environment has to offer instead of coming off with half cocked questions. It is the simple fact that to improve in anything you need to grow. Growth can be achieved through the help of others. It is the same for rehabilitation. Do you see people hosting 1 house drug rehabs? No, because an environment with support, structure, and the ability to evolve an idea as a group is much more efficient than as an individual. Relying solely on yourself to flourish in anything over an opportunity to grow as a team//community is foolish. The electricity of doing something you love with a group of people all focused on the same goal opens many more doors. You have the ability to thrive on other people's ideas, dedication, and sheer love for the game when you are feeling like you're ready to give up. What? You didn't even address anything in the post that you quoted, and offer some pointless drug rehab analogy. His post is perfectly legit: there's nothing special or magical about pro houses. It's a house with people living together who are teammates. On June 17 2011 17:18 rotegirte wrote: Go ahead, make one. Return if you run into any problems. Dumb logical fallacy. Have you even moved out of your parents' house? Ever find housing for yourself? Find roommates, whether with friends or strangers? Was it that hard? Are pro-gamers helpless little children or something? Heck, many on sponsored teams have MANAGERS who should be taking care of this stuff. FXO managed to set up a pro house in MALAYSIA. | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
For the NA scene or any foreign scene to develop and rival the Korean scene, players who are not yet good enough to win tournaments have to be able to play the game professionally. Thus, they cannot rely on tournament winnings as their source of income -- indeed, it is irrelevant where the tournament winnings are going. Instead, what's needed is a team infrastructure similar to that in Korea, where up-and-coming players can train full-time under the supervision of coaches who ensure they're working at it both hard and efficiently like a true professional. The source of funding for the teams is sponsorship, and sponsorship is a function of viewership. Including Koreans increases viewership. Excluding them would have the opposite effect -- it would decrease viewership. Therefore, it would decrease sponsorship money. Therefore, it would decrease the opportunity for teams to create the kind of environment that develops the talent to compete with the Koreans. I believe Catz's heart is in the right place, but his economic analysis is far off the mark. | ||
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furymonkey
New Zealand1587 Posts
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Bombmk
Denmark95 Posts
Who would pay for pro-houses to house a lot of number 3's and 4's? In order for the scene to grow and foster the viability of making it your living - and by consequence support the level of training needed to compete with the best, you need access to a way to market yourself and win prizes. In my view including players from an environment where that viability is already established is more likely to stunt the growth of the other environment than to grow it. If done excessively. It might help to start a tennis organisation up in Nepal to have Nadal or Federer come by for a match now and then. But if they start dropping by every week to win the local tournaments, you can shout "just get better noobs" all you want - but we can probably all see how that might demotivate those trying to get things off the ground locally. | ||
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inamorato
United States263 Posts
I have to assume that you weren't involved when Broodwar was prime or are even involved now because a team house in Korea doesn't simply consist of 5 players. There are thousands of 17 year old Koreans who've gone through team houses just to simply be practice partners for the teams aces. Few ever make it, but the sheer quantity of potential players is 100 fold what America is. To them you don't hear selfish comments such as Catz about money. It is much more than the money to them. To have an opportunity to be a practice partner for an S player is a form of success in itself, and is enough motivation to commit 14 hours a day for these people. To answer your question of the barrier. Overall money is a barrier. Because as much as money doesn't matter to most of the individual players in Korea, it matters to the investors. Team houses didn't sprout over night, it took growth for the nation and sport to intertwine. Which will eventually happen in America if esports is to truly succeed for Americans. It is nothing to invest money such as NASL for a tournament where your money is guaranteed, but to invest money for a team, coach, house, equipment on the off chance that the investor will generate a profit as a label is completely different. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On June 17 2011 16:56 TI83 wrote: I couldn't care less where the player are from, I just want to see amazing games. This. I always forget CatZ is Peruvian. He's.. well, was ROOT. That's all that matters to me. Not where you live or how much you make or anything else. Just your replays pls. | ||
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Xadar
497 Posts
On June 17 2011 17:26 hifriend wrote: This is pretty ridiculous. If you don't like tough competition, then don't compete. It also comes off as fairly racist. Ok, apparently you either didnt watch the video or simply didnt understand it. He is not against foreigners competing against Koreans. What he says is, that we need LOCAL tournaments that are winnable for Americans. He isnt against global competition, he just says that there has to be money in the US for esport to grow there. How do you expect there to be good players if the money is taken by the Koreans from the start. Of course theres no motivation for new players if theres no money they can realistically win, so they can sustain themselves as a Starcraft players. I think his soccer example was really good. Imagine the teams in the USA would have been put up against the best in the world right from the start. They'd just fail and would lose interest. But if they first compete against each other, it allows for a scene to develop, because there are tournaments that can realistically be won. Im not against global competition either, i enjoyed for example the world championship, but my point is, that there need to be local leagues you can train for and win. And your point of racism is pretty dumb actually. He said himself that he would be fine with it if the Koreans had to come over to play it, like foreigners have to do with the GSL. | ||
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drop271
New Zealand286 Posts
If the foreign market is a fan just of foreign players then by all means have a protected tournament for them so they don't get beat. But if the foreign market is a fan of great games, then give them the best players. The soccer example is poor - I'd MUCH rather watch the EPL live than our local league, as I'm sure MLS fans would too. On June 17 2011 17:34 inamorato wrote: Again simple questions have simple answers. A lot of the legitimate American teams already have intentions to develop team houses or already have. The only difference is in Korea it means something to be a professional gamer, and to live in a REAL team house. I have to assume that you weren't involved when Broodwar was prime or are even involved now because a team house in Korea doesn't simply consist of 5 players. There are thousands of 17 year old Koreans who've gone through team houses just to simply be practice partners for the teams aces. Few ever make it, but the sheer quantity of potential players is 100 fold what America is. To them you don't hear selfish comments such as Catz about money. It is much more than the money to them. To have an opportunity to be a practice partner for an S player is a form of success in itself, and is enough motivation to commit 14 hours a day for these people. To answer your question of the barrier. Overall money is a barrier. Because as much as money doesn't matter to most of the individual players in Korea, it matters to the investors. Team houses didn't sprout over night, it took growth for the nation and sport to intertwine. Which will eventually happen in America if esports is to truly succeed for Americans. It is nothing to invest money such as NASL for a tournament where your money is guaranteed, but to invest money for a team, coach, house, equipment on the off chance that the investor will generate a profit as a label is completely different. a) the fact that Foreign pros are competing with Koreans without pro houses shows that the number of players argument is invalid. There are obviously enough players with raw talent outside of Korea that could find 10 players and move in together. Why is money an issue? As I said we ALL pay rent/living costs. Why does it cost more to cram yourself in with other players? I mean if you stick 8 people in the same room, as the Koreans are willing to do, then it would cost less! | ||
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legaton
France1763 Posts
On June 17 2011 17:32 Bombmk wrote: How many here honestly thinks that SC:BW would have taken off in Korea like it did, if there was pro US and EU players coming over and winning the bigger tournaments again and again? Who would pay for pro-houses to house a lot of number 3's and 4's? You mean like Grrr and Elky? (Even if they didn't win that much). | ||
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