EPTWhat WoL units/mechanics are uninteresting? - Page 21
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dreamsmasher
816 Posts
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sleeepy
Canada777 Posts
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Carmine
United States263 Posts
Units can become interesting out of necessity to survive. Marine micro and positioning became more interesting when people started using banelings a lot. | ||
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lexleebold
1 Post
On June 01 2011 14:54 bittman wrote: Collosus - Though I think a lot of the arguments for this unit being "boring" are confused with thinly veiled "OP" arguments.. And why do you think this? I'm curious because it seems like that unit more than any other has had the most consistently well reasoned arguments against it. In fact, arguments against the colossus's design go back to not long after it was first unveiled, well before anyone had a chance to know if it was overpowered or not. On June 01 2011 15:03 Comprissent wrote: I think most everyone's "most uninteresting" list is just the same as "hasn't found full potential yet" or "wasn't in BW so should go". Likewise, I don't understand how someone could read this thread and come away with that impression. The colossus and roach have clearly found something close to their full potential, and more popular units like the stalker and baneling have barely been mentioned at all despite not being in Brood War. Okay back to lurking. | ||
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whaty0uwant
New Zealand346 Posts
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed. - What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see? - What type of new units/buildings would you like to see? 1. Baneling. I believe the baneling should be nerfed significantly to make way for lurkers. Lurkers will make the game much more interesting, it will force better positioning, much more micro, and much more game sense, instead of just 1a 1 control group of units into the terran/protoss ball. 2. Thors. Thors should be 100% removed and replaced with Goliaths. Goliaths are superior in every single way. 3. Mutalisk. The mutalisk should be reverted to what it was in broodwar. Have it's damage reduced but increase it's effectiveness by increasing its micro ability (move shot). The warpgate mechanic I think is overall just stupid. I feel that the game for skilled protoss players would be much more enjoyable and rewarding if warpgates weren't an option, as it would require much more mechanics to chrono each gateway to produce faster units, instead of never chrono'ing your warpgates because, who cares? My units will come quicker than theirs anyway? And perhaps the mule, I'm not sure, I'm just a little tired of the mule saving the Terran players at times, when without it, they would be dead. For one, the blue flame hellion icon changed to blue xD Make stalkers shoot a ball (similar to dragoons) instead of those pansy looking laser beams. Not a graphical change, but bring back some of the broodwar sounds. One key sound that I loved and wish was brought back was the sound of marines shooting and mutalisks. 1. Lurkers, 2.Reaver, 3. Goliath and Science Vessel It's all about making this game Hard, Rewarding and Enjoyable. | ||
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VoiceOfDecember
Australia206 Posts
What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see? I liked what blizz said about using ragdoll effects for single units, could make small skirmishes cooler to watch ^^ What type of new units/buildings would you like to see 1. Spidermines and Lurkers - They can be used in a siege like fashion and can create tense moments like baneling bombs, also more micro. 2. I just want more units and stuff that can make me go "awwwwmaiiiigaaaaaawd" and bask in the skill of the worlds best players I completly agree with the above post. I think ragdoll physics is completly in SC2's grasp, but watching a bunch of marines die and flipflop over the other rines as they continue shooting may look a lil weird. It would obviously have to be done just right instead of just getting injected in there. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
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Wire
United States494 Posts
imo blizz really needs to take a stand on this issue. Either make buff it, restructure it (make it smaller and allow more than 1 or give different spells), or just remove and replace it. As of now it's just a gimmicky "loltroll" kind of unit | ||
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Co-lol-sus
Bulgaria141 Posts
On June 01 2011 11:22 MeteorRise wrote: I wish they would change around the sounds. Before in BW your units just sounded... powerful. Like zerglings sounded like some crazed beast throwing itself on a door. Zealots and hydras sounded so manly. Now lings and hydras, and everything else just doesn't give the feeling that it's a unit that's made to kill. Also i hate the balled up, A move army clumps we always see. Leads to less exciting battles and gimps the spectator excitement. Sound is my main complaint. What happened to the incredible tank blasts What happened to the Mutalisk scream What happened to the EVERYTHING THAT WAS INTIMIDATING HAS BEEN REPLACED BY A 4TH GRADE, BAD QUALITY VERSION OF ITSELF. It's like Bobby Kotick literally told you guys to go find random sounds off the internet instead of providing any budget for the sound guys. | ||
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sickle
New Zealand656 Posts
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Pwnographics
New Zealand1097 Posts
Overseer. Hydra Ultralisk. Uninteresting: Corrupter Collosi Marauder | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
Colossus -- Not a good design concept. Make them much slower both attack speed and movement speed, attack much stronger. Remove Thermal Lances, give it by default. Make it so Colossus drop and Warp Prism + Colossus micro actually useful. Hydralisk -- Either really good or completely useless. Bad, bad design. Introduce a base Hydralisk speed increase along with a Hydralisk speed research. Reduce damage and probably resource cost. Reaper -- Reintroduce Land Mines to Reapers. Probably will need to nerf or take away the building attack. - What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed. The people who took the time to master microing certain units in BW (like Mutalisks and Wraiths) were highly rewarded for their time. I think SC2 needs some units that are designed to have a very high skill cap on how effective they can be microed. I'm not saying it should be the same way (stacking) but something needs to be done so that all three races has a couple units that go a long way when microed like an expert. No, forcefields don't count. - What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see? New unique sounds, bad sounds changed, something done about army clumping. Also, the Corruptor model looks so stupid. - What type of new units/buildings would you like to see? Stargate caster for Protoss, upgrades on Dark Shrine New Factory unit for Terran, revamp to Reaper (Restore D8 charges to being Land mines) Lurker reintroduced, Corruptor rework and a new morph besides Broodlord -- perhaps an air caster (like BW queen) | ||
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smaugswe
Sweden121 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
if you just want to play BW... play BW! I am not really happy with everything in SC2 but BW had a-click units too! And bad unit control options and bad AI are not what I am looking forward to in a 2010 PC game! and I would like to see new units rather than just having all the BW units back (lurkers, arbiters, reavers, dragoons) yeah redesign the colossus, make some other changes, but plz DON'T remake the lurker! | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
I feel sentries (or rather forcefields) need to change as well. Make sentries cheaper and give them a way smaller cap in energy maybe. Toss need the FFs and the mechanic itself isn't horrible, but it's just annoying how abuseable it becomes if a toss has enough sentries. There's NO counter to it except massive units way late-game and possibly burrow, though burrow is only useful in a short timing window when the toss doesn't have an observer with his army yet. The only way to fight it is to snipe sentries (which is almost impossible when they are in the protoss ball and the protoss is saving them skillfully) or bait FFs (which doesn't really matter later in the game when the toss has 10+ sentries with full energy). Infestor might need to be changed as well. Fungal is bordeline imbalanced but the whole unit lives and falls with it. Infested terrans into mineral lines is cute, NP is a decent counter to mass-thors/colossi, but overall, you build infestors to cast fungals to stall and cost-effectively fight the enemy. Without fungals, no one would be building infestors. | ||
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thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
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ABAH
Australia43 Posts
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Falling
Canada11349 Posts
Roach-hydra combo. One or the other needs to go I think and honestly think it should be the roach. Give hydra's speed and suddenly you have a unit that can be microed. Storm dodging etc. Slow units with no aoe can never find a place for gosu microing. Similarily tanking units have less need to be microed. Now you could replace both hydra and roach with some other short ranged, easy to kill, massable unit. But make them microeable. Even with burrow, roaches are rather boring. Collosi- On paper they're cool. But I miss my storm casting, reaver microing, stasis and warping in race. I love BW protoss for the harassment options and the amount of stuff that required excellent control else you'd lose. I don't need the reaver back, but I'd like something that requires more control. 3rd? I'm not sure, I could throw in any number of units, but the above 2 seem to be the worst. Perhaps how the interceptors work on carriers? On paper they have a lot of dps, but the intercerptors disappear so fast... either change the auto targetting on other units, or give more health to interceptors, I thought I remember somewhere that BW interceptors would occasionally go inside the carrier to heal if damaged? Oh, I have a better one. Spine Crawlers. Seriously, give them the old sunken colony attack animation. The poking giraffe's look so silly in comparison. - What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed. More positional control- doesn't need to be mines and lurkers, and dark swarm but there definitely needs to be more units that can hold space. Once you have that, people can claw their way back from getting behind because they snuck an expansion out and held a ramp with 2-3 positional controlling units (lurkers from bw). You can also control from what direction an enemy is attacking. Stacking- I get that 40 muta stacking like bw would be imba. But couldn't the mechanic be changed so that 11 mut with one slow unit will stack like bw and any more will have them spread out like currently? I know they kinda stack if you click enough, but I really think if zerg could have 2-11 muta stack as a micro tool to snipe lone units and add-ons, we could start seeing a new level of play. You see bits and pieces of muta control from July, but it's much more clunky than in BW. You add this to SC2 and the skill ceiling goes through the roof as players are able to harass to get ahead/ keep players defensive while the expand or tech etc. It just makes things more epic. - What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see? Graphics are fine as far as I'm concerned. (Except they're too good for my poor laptop.) - What type of new units/buildings would you like to see? Something for the Zerg's to control space. Blizzard said the lurker conflicted with the role of the baneling. I don't believe them. The baneling threatens, then is gone. If the baneling's territory is threatened, but the Zerg player is not ready to attack, the banelings must retreat in order to be effective. It can never hold space. Lurkers or something to replace it can sit on the top of the ramp and hold of a large group of troops. Something for the Zerg (and maybe Protoss) to get their melee units into combat. Eventually melee becomes hard to use because of critical mass of ranged units/ aoe. Melee only has the front row attacking. From the beginning of the engagement till when the back units hit the enemy, they are being shelled at the entire time. If we add in more units that control space, this will become more critical as it will become even harder to use melee units. Positional control units by definition make life difficult for melee units. BW had Arbiter's cloak and zealot bombs, Zerg had Dark Swarm. I don't really care what takes there place, but I do think some sorts of spell or mechanics will be needed to make melee effective in the late game. (I seem to recall some late game PvT where the Protoss killed off his own zealots in order to create more stalkers and collosi.) Just throwing it out there, but it would be interesting if there was some unit or building that utilized creep that would make it even more scary than it already is. I remember in the early days of BW, I didn't understand that the sunken colony was what actually attacked my units. All I was told by my friends was to not go on creep because you'll get attacked. The few times my buggy dragoons wandered onto the creep, these things would pierce through the goons and kill them in a couple shots. I avoided creep as much as I could and used reavers or carriers to kill the zerg. But if in SC2, there was some sort of unit limited to the creep, but was very flexible in what part of the creep it could defend... that is the unit can strike within creep pretty much anywhere, but it's body is burrowed way far back from the front line.... how scary would that be? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 01 2011 16:47 Tobberoth wrote: The hydra is the obvious contender for change IMO. Atm, it just feels completely wierd. It like a roach which die instantly and move like a spine crawler, but can shoot air. It needs to be faster and have some form of quirk to it, like the lurker transformation (which would fix the issue of getting some new unit for zerg). Something which makes you WANT a hydralisk, instead of being forced to make them because A) Someone goes allin air or B) Someone goes allin gateway units. I feel sentries (or rather forcefields) need to change as well. Make sentries cheaper and give them a way smaller cap in energy maybe. Toss need the FFs and the mechanic itself isn't horrible, but it's just annoying how abuseable it becomes if a toss has enough sentries. There's NO counter to it except massive units way late-game and possibly burrow, though burrow is only useful in a short timing window when the toss doesn't have an observer with his army yet. The only way to fight it is to snipe sentries (which is almost impossible when they are in the protoss ball and the protoss is saving them skillfully) or bait FFs (which doesn't really matter later in the game when the toss has 10+ sentries with full energy). just one thought about sentries: if OLs were detectors again (read the OP for blizzards opinion on Overseers  ), a roach/hydra or roach/corruptor army would have detection way easier, thus observers would be pretty vulnurable and burrow more powerful in the later stages of the game vs FFs.+ Protoss would have to build more observers, means they would have less/later colossi (which would still need some change) and there would be 1less cheese to prepare for in ZvP | ||
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kasumimi
Greece460 Posts
On June 01 2011 16:52 ABAH wrote: Another thread, that in essence - is talking about balance. Good stuff.. Yes, because P users saying that Colossus has to go is hidden balanced whine... There are weeds of QQ in some posts and idiotic suggestions, but the essence of this thread is to point out how problematic SC2 is some of it's aspects. | ||
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