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On June 01 2011 17:32 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 17:19 Yaotzin wrote:On June 01 2011 17:13 Hypemeup wrote:On June 01 2011 17:10 Yaotzin wrote:
The number of banelings that connect, and the damage they cause, is a matter of skill. Aggred, shame the same thing cant be said for Fungal growth. Yes it can. Nope, it really cant. Unless you play Zerg. But then Mutalisks firing nukes seem fair to you.
If you think Infestor control takes no skill then I can't imagine how you feel about the other 80% of SC2 abilities and units lmao.
On June 01 2011 17:07 OrangeSoda wrote:
Bad design:
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2. Roach, zerg have no anti air early game, which makes this so frustrating to play zerg, having to build multiple queens and spore crawlers to defend vs it sucks. Terran and protoss are fine vs air without having to build turrets/cannons in the early stages of the game.
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I hate the Roach as well. Doesn't feel like a Zerg unit at all. Requires 3 upgrades to use it to it's full capacity, supply inefficient, terrible range and just a slow and fat in general when compared to other Zerg units.
With the exception of ZvZ I try my hardest to not make them at all. Mutaling makes larvae management more difficult but the reward is an army that can accomplish things.
Oh and Corruptors. What an absolutely shit unit rofl.
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Eh, personally I sorta like Overseers.
Also if they are removed from MP that means a new detector would be needed for zerg, but a zerg detector wouldn't really feel right if it wasn't an OL upgrade or overseer.
But yeah, Corruptors, Hydras, Immortals and Mothership seem pretty uh......... bad (in terms of interestingness etc.).
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I would like changes/replacement of:
Carrier (it's basically never used)
Ultralisk (too long build time, zergs that use it usually loose)
Corruptor (it's just dead boring)
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If you think Infestor control takes no skill then I can't imagine how you feel about the other 80% of SC2 abilities and units lmao.
Where did I say infestor control takes no skill? What I am driving at is that once a fungal lands the units are dead unless the zerg is a moron. You cant dance out of it like with storm or fan out on the fly like you can with banelings.
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On June 01 2011 17:46 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +If you think Infestor control takes no skill then I can't imagine how you feel about the other 80% of SC2 abilities and units lmao.
Where did I say infestor control takes no skill? What I am driving at is that once a fungal lands the units are dead unless the zerg is a moron. You cant dance out of it like with storm or fan out on the fly like you can with banelings.
Only for a select few units that are especially squishy. I'm assuming you're Terran so let me just say I see nothing wrong with not being able to just stim your 2948245dps marines and pick of whatever you like, whenever you like. They're 50 minerals and 1 supply, they should die easy like lings.
I dislike how Fungal destroys Mutalisks and some other expensive units however.
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i think roaches are pretty uninteresting if you can manage to get rid of them
theyre only interesting with burrow movement
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On June 01 2011 17:46 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +If you think Infestor control takes no skill then I can't imagine how you feel about the other 80% of SC2 abilities and units lmao.
Where did I say infestor control takes no skill? What I am driving at is that once a fungal lands the units are dead unless the zerg is a moron. You cant dance out of it like with storm or fan out on the fly like you can with banelings.
The problem I see, and this is coming from a zerg player, is that the fungal "freeze" is a great tool against protoss and anything but marines for ZvT, it's even necessary to deal with vikings against broodlords, without immobilize the vikings could just dance in and out with their huge range.
But against marines the damage is enough, what would be perfect imo is that once fungal hits it does full damage, but still allow the marines to move. But that's not possible to make it affect only marines.
Or maybe remove the freeze effect and instead make units slow down?
Edit : And I like my overseers 
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On June 01 2011 17:46 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +If you think Infestor control takes no skill then I can't imagine how you feel about the other 80% of SC2 abilities and units lmao.
Where did I say infestor control takes no skill? What I am driving at is that once a fungal lands the units are dead unless the zerg is a moron. You cant dance out of it like with storm or fan out on the fly like you can with banelings.
Are tanks shit because they're immobile and if you get caught with your pants down (ie moving unsieged) you're fucked? No, of course not. You prepare for such possibilities, with scouting and careful positioning. Same deal with fungal. Yes, once it hits there's nothing you can do. There's plenty you can do before it hits, however. Spread your marines, cloak ghosts and go emp them, etc.
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Only for a select few units that are especially squishy.
If you are playing bad, yeah, it only applies to squishy units.
I'm assuming you're Terran so let me just say I see nothing wrong with not being able to just stim your 2948245dps marines and pick of whatever you like, whenever you like.
Neither do I, Marines need a change.
I dislike how Fungal destroys Mutalisks and some other expensive units however.
Yeah, like say... Vikings.
Honestly I dont want to derail this further, PM me on the issue if you want to continue chattin 'bout it.
Edit:
Are tanks shit because they're immobile and if you get caught with your pants down (ie moving unsieged) you're fucked? No, of course not. You prepare for such possibilities, with scouting and careful positioning. Same deal with fungal. Yes, once it hits there's nothing you can do. There's plenty you can do before it hits, however. Spread your marines, cloak ghosts and go emp them, etc.
Yeah fair enough. I still feel counteracting banelings take alot more skill, but I should not have said fungal is skillless.
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3 units which are lame/boring, 1 per race: Corruptor, Hellion, eh, P units are ridculous idk
worst race specific mechanism: either the mule or the PF, i cant decide
Forcefield definetly needs redisigning, make the sentry lose its dmg as the rest of the casters or make FFs not spammable
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Hellions... Boring?
I think seeing some pro attempting to torch mineral lines is quite exiting as a spectator. It can be such a gamebreaker.
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Colossi because they seem too strong/require too little micro. The reaver was slow and required heavy micro for a reason.
Corrupters because they seem to have very little utility as anything but temporary (inefficient) colossi killers into broodlords.
Thors for obvious reasons.
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On June 01 2011 17:59 Hypemeup wrote:
Hellions... Boring?
I think seeing some pro attempting to torch mineral lines is quite exiting as a spectator. It can be such a gamebreaker.
i dislike how 1 random hellion drop can put you so far behind that its impossible to come back, its hard not to do damage with them since if you run your workers away they line up and you instantly lose them
hellions are no vultures imo
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On June 01 2011 18:04 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 17:59 Hypemeup wrote:
Hellions... Boring?
I think seeing some pro attempting to torch mineral lines is quite exiting as a spectator. It can be such a gamebreaker. i dislike how 1 random hellion drop can put you so far behind that its impossible to come back, its hard not to do damage with them since if you run your workers away they line up and you instantly lose them hellions are no vultures imo
I'd take vultures over a buggy with a flamethrower anydays. Mines <3<3<3
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I would like to note that first there is a lot of flaming because Blizzard said that they want to have "cool" units. This wouldnt be good because the hardcore gamers want to have stable balanced units instead of gimmiky abilitys. Now suddenly everybody wants to get rid of the stable "easier" units and get "cooler" harder to use units for them in return. I dont have a strong opinion about either of the two and which direction sc2 should go, but for the people that do have strong opinions, they should really think which way they want to go imo.
As for the units I will keep it to Terran since I only play that race :p
1) Raven, for a detector its very far in the tech tree imo. pdd is cool, but other than that its a pretty useless unit imo. seeker missles are to slow and expensive and turrets just dont cut it.
2) BC, not saying I want it to leave, but the way game is now it feels like the tech tree stops after the Thor, this is evenly true for the Protoss. they kinda miss that last big viable endgame unit imo
3) I love Terran 
On a site note, if they would ad a unit I think there is place for a good ground to air mech unit. Both the barracks and starprort have 4 units that can be created out of them, why not ad a 4th unit to the factory as well.
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On June 01 2011 18:04 arb wrote:
hellions are no vultures imo
To be fair, the vulture is possibly the most exciting, most strategically open-ended unit in RTS history. As long as it's off the table because of SC2's clumping, we could do worse than the hellion.
Hellion zergling and hellion marine battles are very tense when they happen.
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On June 01 2011 17:34 PH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 17:24 Yaotzin wrote:
a) esports != BW. There are other esports, and it would exist without BW.
b) the annoyance is at people who want nothing BUT BW units. Of course it is SC2, of course it should have BW units. But it should also have different units. SC2 would not be anywhere near what it is today without BW. SC2 owes nearly all (not all, but nearly all) of its success to BW. Sorry, but that's just how it is.
yeah but you know what:
SC2 IS NOT BW
if you want to play BW with SC2 graphics, there is an awesome galaxy editor that gives u the option to produce SC1 BW with SC2 graphics.
Of course there should be trademark units of SC1 in SC2, else you could just make GalaxyWars1, Scrin vs Human vs SpaceOrcs vs Zombies, but Im really sick of people saying:
"remove unit X (new SC2 unit) and bring back unit Y (BW unit)". yeah maybe zerg could use a spacecontroling unit like the lurker... LIKE THE LURKER!
lurkers are not the only way to control space! Protoss got sentries, terran has siege tanks and got planetary fortresses, queens were intended to work like that (on the creep).
and you know what? I like my units clumped up in 1 or 2 huge control groups. I really don't see the point of only selecting only 12zerglings in SC2. I really don't see the point why I shouldnt be able to select 2casters at once and only cast 1spell. THIS is an advanced game and whatever you want to reply, keep in mind, that people like me, that actually enjoy those IMPROVEMENTS, have already won, because the IMPROVEMENTS are there!
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On June 01 2011 18:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 17:34 PH wrote:On June 01 2011 17:24 Yaotzin wrote:
a) esports != BW. There are other esports, and it would exist without BW.
b) the annoyance is at people who want nothing BUT BW units. Of course it is SC2, of course it should have BW units. But it should also have different units. SC2 would not be anywhere near what it is today without BW. SC2 owes nearly all (not all, but nearly all) of its success to BW. Sorry, but that's just how it is. yeah but you know what: SC2 IS NOT BW if you want to play BW with SC2 graphics, there is an awesome galaxy editor that gives u the option to produce SC1 BW with SC2 graphics. Of course there should be trademark units of SC1 in SC2, else you could just make GalaxyWars1, Scrin vs Human vs SpaceOrcs vs Zombies, but Im really sick of people saying: "remove unit X (new SC2 unit) and bring back unit Y (BW unit)". yeah maybe zerg could use a spacecontroling unit like the lurker... LIKE THE LURKER! lurkers are not the only way to control space! Protoss got sentries, terran has siege tanks and got planetary fortresses, queens were intended to work like that (on the creep). and you know what? I like my units clumped up in 1 or 2 huge control groups. I really don't see the point of only selecting only 12zerglings in SC2. I really don't see the point why I shouldnt be able to select 2casters at once and only cast 1spell. THIS is an advanced game and whatever you want to reply, keep in mind, that people like me, that actually enjoy those IMPROVEMENTS, have already won, because the IMPROVEMENTS are there!
I'm glad you have a lot of pride in how you are different from people who like BW. However your reasons have no relevance to your argument.
12 unit selection has nothing to do with unit clumping. It is not unit clumping that is the problem, it is unit control. BW allowed you to move clumped armies, spread armies, and "formationed" armies. SC2 only allows one, clumped.
Creep does not control space, it is merely a mild form of map hack and also makes worker scouting impossible. Blizzard also managed to leverage creep to make Queens and Hydras terrible offensive units.
Controlling space has nothing to do with uninteresting units but more to do with utility. Lurkers can kill lots of marines without dying unlike banelings, and lurkers can "control space" without needing energy, and lurkers can actually kill lots of stuff on their own while "controlling space". 2 well positioned lurkers can defend an early 3rd expansion against infinite marines, 10 well positioned banelings will defend your expansion for 2 seconds until more marines arrive.
A counter to lurkers is siege tanks, however lurkers can destroy massive tank lines with micro and positioning, and marines can kill lurkers even though they are countered by lurkers.
Sentries on their own, do you have the same dynamic?
Maybe Zerg could bring back the reaver/lurker, because hell, its better than Blizzard making a new unit and screwing up the design like they do all the time these days, when we already have something that's perfect. Why break something that's perfect?
On June 01 2011 17:52 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 17:46 Hypemeup wrote:If you think Infestor control takes no skill then I can't imagine how you feel about the other 80% of SC2 abilities and units lmao.
Where did I say infestor control takes no skill? What I am driving at is that once a fungal lands the units are dead unless the zerg is a moron. You cant dance out of it like with storm or fan out on the fly like you can with banelings. Are tanks shit because they're immobile and if you get caught with your pants down (ie moving unsieged) you're fucked? No, of course not. You prepare for such possibilities, with scouting and careful positioning. Same deal with fungal. Yes, once it hits there's nothing you can do. There's plenty you can do before it hits, however. Spread your marines, cloak ghosts and go emp them, etc.
But Tanks would be pretty shit if Zerg was the one that decided when they should siege and unsiege.
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On June 01 2011 18:57 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 18:34 Big J wrote:On June 01 2011 17:34 PH wrote:On June 01 2011 17:24 Yaotzin wrote:
a) esports != BW. There are other esports, and it would exist without BW.
b) the annoyance is at people who want nothing BUT BW units. Of course it is SC2, of course it should have BW units. But it should also have different units. SC2 would not be anywhere near what it is today without BW. SC2 owes nearly all (not all, but nearly all) of its success to BW. Sorry, but that's just how it is. yeah but you know what: SC2 IS NOT BW if you want to play BW with SC2 graphics, there is an awesome galaxy editor that gives u the option to produce SC1 BW with SC2 graphics. Of course there should be trademark units of SC1 in SC2, else you could just make GalaxyWars1, Scrin vs Human vs SpaceOrcs vs Zombies, but Im really sick of people saying: "remove unit X (new SC2 unit) and bring back unit Y (BW unit)". yeah maybe zerg could use a spacecontroling unit like the lurker... LIKE THE LURKER! lurkers are not the only way to control space! Protoss got sentries, terran has siege tanks and got planetary fortresses, queens were intended to work like that (on the creep). and you know what? I like my units clumped up in 1 or 2 huge control groups. I really don't see the point of only selecting only 12zerglings in SC2. I really don't see the point why I shouldnt be able to select 2casters at once and only cast 1spell. THIS is an advanced game and whatever you want to reply, keep in mind, that people like me, that actually enjoy those IMPROVEMENTS, have already won, because the IMPROVEMENTS are there! I'm glad you have a lot of pride in how you are different from people who like BW. However your reasons have no relevance to your argument. 12 unit selection has nothing to do with unit clumping. It is not unit clumping that is the problem, it is unit control. BW allowed you to move clumped armies, spread armies, and "formationed" armies. SC2 only allows one, clumped. Creep does not control space, it is merely a mild form of map hack and also makes worker scouting impossible. Blizzard also managed to leverage creep to make Queens and Hydras terrible offensive units. Controlling space has nothing to do with uninteresting units but more to do with utility. Lurkers can kill lots of marines without dying unlike banelings, and lurkers can "control space" without needing energy, and lurkers can actually kill lots of stuff on their own while "controlling space". A counter to lurkers is siege tanks, however lurkers can destroy massive tank lines with micro and positioning, and marines can kill lurkers even though they are countered by lurkers. Sentries on their own, do you have the same dynamic? Lets see, sentries can completely stop units from moving up a ramp until they run out of energy, sentries are countered by ghosts, however mass sentry forcefield micro does nothing when faced against mass ghost. Maybe Zerg could bring back the reaver/lurker, because hell, its better than Blizzard making a new unit and screwing up the design like they do all the time these days, when we already have something that's perfect. Why break something that's perfect?
I never said I don't like BW. BW is awesome. Sc2 is awesome too. making SC2=BW would make an awesome game. One that already exists. it is called BW, get it?
Im not talking about queens controling space, but if you look at the original concept of the queen, it was made to be a unique basedefender unit, that could kill tons of marines and build defenses. That is what I was refering to.
I won't reply on the lurker stuff, because I can only say: you're right. That is how BW worked.
about blizzard screwing up every unit... That's just bullshit and you know it.
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EPT
