EPTI guess most of this thread is about perspective
What WoL units/mechanics are uninteresting? - Page 25
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DisaFear
Australia4074 Posts
I guess most of this thread is about perspective | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10596 Posts
Btw: How do you kill 10 Ravens in a kinda "efficient" as Zerg? Had this some time ago against me... I won the game but these fuckers seemed pretty close to invunerable (whiteout going masssssshydras which would die to anything else the Terran had) :D. | ||
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Mali__Slon
Senegal163 Posts
On June 01 2011 21:54 tomatriedes wrote: I think zerg needs something like scourges from BW so we have something else to take out medivacs apart from mutas. It would give us more of a choice to not make mutas every ZvT game. You have that. Its called infestor. All good zergs are now scraping muta, and going for infestor which is much more interesting. Muta are more easily microed, but if you can use infestor properly its more rewarding unit. | ||
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
On June 01 2011 21:42 Darcey wrote: I think he means the automated tournament system that WC3 had. Exactly , thats what I mean , I'm surprise they didn't include it in sc2 to begin with | ||
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Nivoh
Norway259 Posts
On June 01 2011 08:00 roymarthyup wrote: """""""""""""" Blizzard made a stupid announcement. Marines are the most standard and boring unit in the game, should we remove them? Seriously, they should start basing their decisions upon good competitive play and not interest. """"""""""""" Marines are interesting due to their potential when utilized with micro. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
Reaper I think it's a cool unit actually that sadly it's never worth the cost. In the high tempo of sc2 spending that much gas/ barracks time for a unit that might kill some workers or a few buildings just does not work. I can understand the difficulty in making this unit useful though. It can easily go from worthless to overpowered. Hope Blizz finds a way though. Seeker Missile Similar to the reaper really. Was to strong in it's original form and now it's a "i hope the opponent does not know i have it/ is a retard" Colossus Like the Reaper, i actually like the Colossus, as a cool unit. However, i think it's to easy to use. The 1a "frendliness" coupled with it's devastating power makes it to much, IMO. Increase the skill cap for using Colossus effectively. The "vulnerable to air attacks" is just not much of a disadvantage since them air units (vikings/ corruptors) will be useless afterwards. By far my biggest wish is to have a Factory unit good at anti armored air. Vikings are great yes, but they are a 100% specific counter since they are on a different upgrade path to mech. Landed Vikings are just a complete waste. Or, to make it more simple, i gues Vikings could benefit from mech (ground vehicles) upgrades while in assault mode. On a general note, i would like to see the scouting options improved for all 3 races. | ||
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Black Octopi
187 Posts
On June 01 2011 22:01 Velr wrote: If they have HSM you should be able to make 2 infestors with neural parasite and mind control 2 raven and hsm the ball, that's probably the simplest solution. If it's in a ball the whole HSM drawback is just non-existent because it will accelerate in at range 2.Btw: How do you kill 10 Ravens in a kinda "efficient" as Zerg? Had this some time ago against me... I won the game but these fuckers seemed pretty close to invunerable (whiteout going masssssshydras which would die to anything else the Terran had) :D. Otherwise just get enough infestors to fungal/marine them. I can see how it can be difficult because of mass PDD, but at the end of the day all you need is to just throw a few marines around and they should be able to snipe either ravens or PDDs. The moment PDD fall and fungal hit it's pretty game over because of the infested marines dps. In theory mind controling the ravens and throwing turrets then using the rest of the energy for marines would probably be the most cost efficient (in theory). | ||
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`Forte
United States128 Posts
On June 01 2011 20:59 intrigue wrote: the marauder, colossus and hellion are the most boring units ever. forcefields, fungal growth and marauder slow are all spells with no counter micro, which is boring and terrible for competitive play. Simplest and most true post in this thread IMO. Some units need to be redesigned because they're just bad (corruptor, mothership, raven), but the three Intrigue mentioned are just boring because there's nothing to them. Colossus micro equates to moving your hurt Colossi back. Stalkers can Blink, Tanks can siege/unsiege, and Marines can split, but there's nothing you can do to make your Colossi more effective (or your opponent's Colossi less effective). They will ALWAYS do well against bio/light and will ALWAYS have to worry about Vikings/Corruptors because of the hard-counter design that's in many units in SC2. That's boring. The current state of FFs, Fungal Growth, and Concussive Shells are in a similar boat where the opponent can't do much to mitigate their usefulness. Forcefields less so because you can prepare your army for an engagement to not get split, and you can also try to bait FFs--the only problem is that the Forcefield's ability to stack on each other and trap infinite units in a small space seems way more like a bug than an intended game mechanic, and I believe it should be fixed. Fungal isn't a bad spell, but it's unexciting how you can't do anything against it. While the 1.3 early PTR version where Fungal was a missle didn't work out, it was a step in the right direction. I'd rather see the spell be more powerful but harder to hit with as it's micro-intensive, rather than a spell where you click and get damage. Same with Concussive (except you don't even have to click!). Anyway, other game mechanics things that I think should be changed: + Show Spoiler + I've watched very exciting games of SC2, but a lot of games, even professional ones, fall into the same boring category of either a build-order loss or a unit-composition loss. The added damage units do, coupled with the ball movement mechanics, coupled with the added supply costing units, coupled with the added macro mechanics that make getting to 200 supply faster, coupled with not needing more than 3 bases for optimal economy, coupled with the supply still being the same as BW despite these things, coupled with the amount of 1-dimensional units such as Colossus or Marauder that require little micro, coupled with the amount of direct counter units, coupled with the lack of a defenders advantage -- it all makes 200 supply battles ridiculously short, comebacks difficult, and games boring. It sounds like a lot of whining on my part, but honestly these are all minor things that amount to one big problem. SC2 mechanics don't have to be like BW to have exciting games. We don't need 12 unit control groups or macro mechanics to be any more difficult (because it's no fun as a player to have to deal with bad UI), but we do need to change a few things. Units -- Units need to be more dynamic and multipurpose, and less one dimensional. We need more units like the Siege Tank, that has a great defender's advantage and is very strong in some situations, and you can't just 1a to use it to near perfect efficiency. Or Marines, which are strong units but even stronger with micro. Situations like Marine vs. Baneling or Blink Stalker vs. Roach/Infestor are exciting for a spectator and a player. For God's sake, change the Colossus. As a Protoss player, I hate that unit, because I hate how most of my effective late-game strategies revolve around using that boring unit. Spellcasters -- These are units, but I think they need special mention. Because of smartcasting, spellcasters can't only be there for sheer damage attacks. There need to be more support spellcasters, like Sentries and Ravens, or just more units with some support spells. Ravens could be an AMAZING unit for controlling space if PDD/Turrets were more efficient and HSM was faster, but right now they're a lackluster mobile detector. Supply -- Something needs to be either done about the max supply, the current required supply of units, or just the beefiness of the units. I think it could just be the last two. Units die extremely fast in this game compared to BW, in the early and late game. It's a problem when a 200 supply army dies in 5 seconds -- that's not fun and climactic; it's a disappointment. Part of it is the 200 supply is often compromised of direct counter units (Colossi vs. MMM + Vikings) so one side dies quickly, and part of it is that units just die fast regardless. Max supply armies often feel small because of the 4 or 6 supply units -- which makes sense in WoL because they had to balance out the power of the Colossus somehow, but I think with changes they don't have to be so supply heavy. | ||
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Tigi
Germany472 Posts
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MegaManEXE
United States845 Posts
Hellion - Reduce the attack animation delay so that they can be microed more and reward more skilled players (like Vultures). I'd also like to see them change the blue flame bonus, instead of stacking it heavily toward only light units, make it more of like a 5 (+5 to light) thing or something to make Hellions a bit more viable versus other types of units. Thor - Terrible anti air, not even good at crushing FFs because it's slow, big, and clunky. Strike cannons are useless in almost all situations. I'd like to see them at least add an AoE effect or something to them. There's no reason to get a Thor except to scare away large packs of Mutas and even then they can just magic box you. It's an expensive unit that basically does nothing. Easily the worst unit in the game imo. Raven - Way too expensive to get the upgrades for it. It's already a gas heavy unit and only has one really good ability that still has situational use. Seeker Missiles should not require an upgrade, honestly. Either that or they need some buffs, they're too expensive to upgrade, they move slow, and can be dodged. - What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed. Banelings - They reward low skill gameplay by allowing people to 1a large clumps of them into things and still do heavy damage even if the other player micros immaculately. Lurkers required tactical positioning and strategy, Banelings are more of a herp derp blow things up unit. Baneling bombs are difficult to use because of the splash radius (see Moon), so most players just opt to 1a them because it actually works. I also think the fact that they do full splash damage even when they're killed (rather than self-detonated) is extremely stupid. Marauder - Stim + slow + the bonus to armored and being pretty bulky, all for a cheap price tag and requiring tier 1.5 level tech? It's too much. They're better now than they were in the beta but they are still extremely good, could use a light nerf. Reaper - Could go in the redesign thing I think, but all I think they need to do is fix the Nitro Packs requiring Factory thing, that really killed the Reaper's viability in most scenarios. - What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see? B.net 2.0 still needs a lot of work. Graphics are fine. - What type of new units/buildings would you like to see? Terran: Replace Thors with Goliaths, tech reactors (lol), would like to see Science Vessels and Medics return somehow Protoss: Reavers Zerg: Bring back Lurkers and Defilers | ||
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BigKahunaBurger
Australia334 Posts
A lot of people have named the carrier as an uinteresting unit that needs to be changed. This is ridiculous. The only reason people say this is because no one uses them very often. If you saw a carrier being used in the GSL or NASL, you would absolutely go nuts. It's a unit that is so powerful and thus so exciting to see. It's battle animations of sending out interceptors is great fun, and it plays its role well. I don't see how anyone could find it boring. That being said, on the other end of the spectrum you have the Colossi. I find it to be a very fun unit. The only reason people do not find it interesting is because it's so overexposed. Changing it to any other unit is not going to help this. Don't you realise that you'll just have to watch that other unit and that you'll eventually get sick of this new unit too? If you saw a Colossi for the first time, you'd think it looked awesome. A huge walker with lasers? Come on. It's a good unit, end of story. Units I DO agree with changes to are units like the corrupter. This unit is just your standard air to air attacker. Obviously it performs its role well, but it doesn't look good doing it, and its 'bonus' ability that all the other air-to-air attackers have is relatively bland. Corruption is the ability that needs changing, not the unit itself. It simply needs spicing up in abilities, not a changing in its role. | ||
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OrgCom
Canada25 Posts
1. Big impact units that open up comeback possibilities. 2. Increase micro These ideas would definitely require further balancing. It is only the general ideas that I am proposing. What are your top 3 uninteresting units in the game? Colossus - Death ball to victory. Corruptors - Two uses: Counter colossus. Building Broodlords. Otherwise useless. Zealots, Immortals, Archons - really minimal control involved. A-move and watch your army. All your Zealots died? No problem, they were free anyways. - What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed. HT Storms - Make it hard to use. Have large energy requirements that force you to build them much earlier to use. Make it so each HT can only storm once even at full energy. For example, Storm should cost 150 energy. Max energy should be 200. Starting energy should be 50. As compensation for the added difficulty in using this spell, the damage should be increased to have a greater impact. ie. If you land a good storm, it should be devastating. Also, ghosts should have similar treatment to make EMPs harder to use so it won't be able to counter this as easily. Big Impact Player For Terran - HTs change the game in one storm. Infestors can wipe out huge bio armies with 2-3 fungals and can change the game instantly. Baneling mines can do the same. Terrans should also have a game changing unit/skill that works vs all races. Right now, Terrans only depend on positioning and winning that decisive battle. Sure the Terran needs skill in positioning to wipe out the opposing army, but it is also the opponent that loses the army in the engagement through no special spell casting of the Terran. How many times has a Terran beat a Zerg player by rolling tanks out and leap frogging them when they reach the edge of the creep line? This is not the most exciting thing to see. But when all those marines fall to a single baneling trap, that is what brings the excitement to the game. It is true that Terran has nukes, but this is far from practical. The solution? Possibly make the seeker missile High Impact. The seeker missile is FAR from useful. Even off racing players who choose this tech path and expect a big bang end up disappointed due to... well, due to the missile doing absolutely no noticeable damage. Seeker missile is already slow, it can be dodged by most units, and the AOE is quite small as well. Seeker missile needs to be a game changer. It should force enemy units to micro. - What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see? N/A - What type of new units/buildings would you like to see? Flamethrower static defense for Terran - Ground only static defense that is hidden until the enemy is in range? Maybe even a command like the ghost where the structure does not auto-attack until commanded to? Adds that little element of surprise to the table that also builds suspense for viewers of a cast, etc. Lurkers - Zone of control unit. Counterpart to the tank if you may. Creates those back and forth matches. This reduces the opportunities of scenarios where a player would just A-move their way in and win. If you do that, the opponent has a way to punish it. | ||
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
On June 01 2011 22:23 Sapphire.lux wrote: Redesign Reaper I think it's a cool unit actually that sadly it's never worth the cost. In the high tempo of sc2 spending that much gas/ barracks time for a unit that might kill some workers or a few buildings just does not work. I can understand the difficulty in making this unit useful though. It can easily go from worthless to overpowered. Hope Blizz finds a way though. Seeker Missile Similar to the reaper really. Was to strong in it's original form and now it's a "i hope the opponent does not know i have it/ is a retard" Colossus Like the Reaper, i actually like the Colossus, as a cool unit. However, i think it's to easy to use. The 1a "frendliness" coupled with it's devastating power makes it to much, IMO. Increase the skill cap for using Colossus effectively. The "vulnerable to air attacks" is just not much of a disadvantage since them air units (vikings/ corruptors) will be useless afterwards. By far my biggest wish is to have a Factory unit good at anti armored air. Vikings are great yes, but they are a 100% specific counter since they are on a different upgrade path to mech. Landed Vikings are just a complete waste. Or, to make it more simple, i gues Vikings could benefit from mech (ground vehicles) upgrades while in assault mode. On a general note, i would like to see the scouting options improved for all 3 races. let me guess, you play terran? I think the hellion. does so much dmg to workers its silly | ||
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Beakyboo
United States485 Posts
One no one seems to mention is banelings. These are a huge proponent of massive A move encounters that end in an instant, and that's simply because of the nature of the unit. I think a lot of us want fights to last a little longer with more interesting micro, but this really just can't happen with banelings. And given that they're one of the most efficient units in the game vs clumped units, they're often mandatory for zerg and so they really force the game in a poor direction. Hellions I think are another poor unit. I'm not obsessive about making this back into BW or anything but the concept just seems terrible compared to firebats. Their mobility just makes them too strong for worker harass, whereas the firebat wouldn't be so abusable. Edit: grammar | ||
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DoX.)
Singapore6164 Posts
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tmIntoTheFruitro
United States76 Posts
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Rococo
United States331 Posts
On June 01 2011 23:08 BigKahunaBurger wrote: That being said, on the other end of the spectrum you have the Colossi. I find it to be a very fun unit. The only reason people do not find it interesting is because it's so overexposed. Changing it to any other unit is not going to help this. Don't you realise that you'll just have to watch that other unit and that you'll eventually get sick of this new unit too? If you saw a Colossi for the first time, you'd think it looked awesome. A huge walker with lasers? Come on. It's a good unit, end of story. I can't figure out if you're being sarcastic or if you're Dustin Browder. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 01 2011 23:35 L3g3nd_ wrote: let me guess, you play terran? I think the hellion. does so much dmg to workers its silly Do you disagree with something in particular? With what and why? I can understand if you disagree with the Viking thing, i am biased towards mech TBF. Yes i play terran and that is why i addressed terran based units/ situations. I do not have the experience to talk about Zerg or Protoss mechanics and all. | ||
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
- Collossi: Too much potential for mass destruction with too little handicaps. Either their mobility needs to be cut down a notch, their range reduced or their damage reduced (or made more specific +light or +armored). Terrans at least have vikings as a workable counter, zergs are too dependant on lackluster corruptors. - Immortals: They need more range imo. - Reapers: Just no place in the game for them right now. Just an expensive scout. - Marauders: Their ability to stim combined with concussive shells is just a bit too much. However, they are also quite bad against light units. Maybe some tweaking could be done there. - Thors: Badly designed unit basically. The only thing they are good for is abusing mass-repair. And maybe punish zerg who are too bad for magic boxing. - Ravens: Apart from the PDD, they don't have useful spells. Especially HSM in the current implementation is just a joke. Terrans basically only get ravens for detection - the pdd helps to pay off the investment but that's it. Apart from that, i think that creep tumors need some kind of review. I think that the mechanic pretty much prevents zerg burrow to be used effectively. As a terran has to pretty much always scan the creep to kill the tumors, he'll also see burrowed units (a protoss will bring an obs for the some reason). So there's little potential for burrow to be used as a surprise tactic. Also, zerg units are maybe to weak off creep, making them too dependant on it. | ||
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Juddas
768 Posts
i think the raven should be given Irradiate. That would be very cool vs bio balls and zergie in general, but i dont think it would be too much. IMO they could nerf to hell HSM where there is waaaaay less damage and move it to the autoturrets spot. Then they could add irradiate as the 3rd ability. Also slow the raven. I feel like this would add more use to the raven, plus it would be more of a high priority damage dealer instead of something no one really cares about. Since it would be slower, worker harrass would still exist, but you wouldn't be able to irradiate the whole mineral line. Also, it would make for a really good positional aspect and would make it harder for terran to 1a and push all the way to the base with stim. For graphics: I want a much more swarmy feeling aspect from zerg, especially on the minimap. I want the minimap to be writhing. fungal growth looks lame. | ||
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