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I like how most people disguise their intentions of making balance changes (ie removing units that they have trouble with) like they actually care about how interesting some units are.
Most of the post here are:
- first line - unit from my race that i dont use, so do anything you want with it
- all other lines - remove this or that because its boring.
Like some people suggested removing Thor from game. Its by far coolest unit. Or redesigning infestor, although for the first time zerg has great spell caster.
If I was making decisions, i would give more abilities ti units. Like thor has 250 mm cannons (IMHO its not good at the moment), but its more interesting to see these battles where there is micro all around.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2011 20:08 Mali__Slon wrote:
I like how most people disguise their intentions of making balance changes (ie removing units that they have trouble with) like they actually care about how interesting some units are.
Most of the post here are:
- first line - unit from my race that i dont use, so do anything you want with it
- all other lines - remove this or that because its boring.
Like some people suggested removing Thor from game. Its by far coolest unit. Or redesigning infestor, although for the first time zerg has great spell caster.
If I was making decisions, i would give more abilities ti units. Like thor has 250 mm cannons (IMHO its not good at the moment), but its more interesting to see these battles where there is micro all around.
What!? Zerg having for first time a great caster? Defilers were way better...
Also, I cannot understand why Colossi are not OP, or Corruptors a boring unit.
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Nice try Blizzard, do your own work. :3
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On June 01 2011 10:32 HiredGoonThug wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 09:12 mordk wrote:
A versatile unit is, for example, the stalker. The mutalisk. The marine. They are "core" units which can be useful in nearly any composition. The VR is no such thing. Yes it is, why do you think the 'Colo VR' ball is so popular?
obviously the skill level here isn't very high when you still have people thinking the colossus/vr build is popular, or even effective in pvz...
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On June 01 2011 20:08 Mali__Slon wrote:
I like how most people disguise their intentions of making balance changes (ie removing units that they have trouble with) like they actually care about how interesting some units are.
Most of the post here are:
- first line - unit from my race that i dont use, so do anything you want with it
- all other lines - remove this or that because its boring.
Like some people suggested removing Thor from game. Its by far coolest unit. Or redesigning infestor, although for the first time zerg has great spell caster.
If I was making decisions, i would give more abilities ti units. Like thor has 250 mm cannons (IMHO its not good at the moment), but its more interesting to see these battles where there is micro all around.
nothing cool in thor, its boring slow ass unmicrable unit
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On June 01 2011 20:08 Mali__Slon wrote:
I like how most people disguise their intentions of making balance changes (ie removing units that they have trouble with) like they actually care about how interesting some units are.
Is it really so outlandish that people who post on this forum might genuinely care about the quality of the game?
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
the marauder, colossus and hellion are the most boring units ever. forcefields, fungal growth and marauder slow are all spells with no counter micro, which is boring and terrible for competitive play.
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On June 01 2011 03:34 Qaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 03:25 teekesselchen wrote:
3) New Units:
-Arbiters instead of mothership, because it was an awesome casting unit
-Marauders removed or replaced by a fire-bat like unit
-Hellion revamped, because it's a stupid unit right now. It can roast a players whole economy in seconds making millions of players rage every day, but has few uses otherwise. I'ld love seeing spider mines return, on bigger maps at least.
-Lurkers. Positional play for Zerg is totally missing and badly required.
-Thor beeing made smaller, cheaper, weaker again. The concept of hero units failed. They have so few tactical value that I don't even really want to mind control them, even though they are so expansive. I'd rather take a couple of siege tanks.
-Colossus beeing switched back to Transporter+Reaver. I don't think a unit should be as strong as colossus when just beeing a-clicked into the opponent (only exeption: Utralisks, because Zerg mechanics work differently). I always saw Protoss as a race that should have to micro a lot but be rewarded for it, too. Reaver-Shuttle provides that. Colossus does not nearly as much.
. Every single one of these choices, and i mean EVERY SINGLE ONE are make this exactly like brood war. While I do agree that many of these need adjustments, just saying let's go back to brood war isn't much of a solution.
As I said, I am not wanting these changes only for the sake of turning back to Broodwar, but for the sake of making the game better. Because all these units I meantioned in their current SC2 form are much less amazing than their counter part in Broodwar.
They provide less options, less micro, less tactical value. All they're better at as their broodwar pendendands is fighting head on. And that is a terribly boring trait of a unit.
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IMO just buy SC2BW from Maverick :D
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i'm 100% sure that corruptor (at least their spell) and overseer will be taken out or heavily changed in hots..they are just sooo bullshit units...
edit: also ich hope they fix the gap between zerg and the other two races in the sence of how much units they have....Z has like 9? and the others 12-13?...
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This game definitely needs more seeker missiles. 
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warpgate which nulifies distance should possibly be moved all the way to fleet beacon.
rofl. stuff like this makes it hard to take you seriously.
3units; collosus (no micro potential), hydra (too high on tech tree to use early, no use lategame), ultralisk (they just keep bumping in zerglings until they die).
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I know this is off topic , but we please have daily tournaments and clans like warcraft 3 ? it seems like it won't happen in WoL .
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On June 01 2011 21:09 teekesselchen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 03:34 Qaz wrote:On June 01 2011 03:25 teekesselchen wrote:
3) New Units:
-Arbiters instead of mothership, because it was an awesome casting unit
-Marauders removed or replaced by a fire-bat like unit
-Hellion revamped, because it's a stupid unit right now. It can roast a players whole economy in seconds making millions of players rage every day, but has few uses otherwise. I'ld love seeing spider mines return, on bigger maps at least.
-Lurkers. Positional play for Zerg is totally missing and badly required.
-Thor beeing made smaller, cheaper, weaker again. The concept of hero units failed. They have so few tactical value that I don't even really want to mind control them, even though they are so expansive. I'd rather take a couple of siege tanks.
-Colossus beeing switched back to Transporter+Reaver. I don't think a unit should be as strong as colossus when just beeing a-clicked into the opponent (only exeption: Utralisks, because Zerg mechanics work differently). I always saw Protoss as a race that should have to micro a lot but be rewarded for it, too. Reaver-Shuttle provides that. Colossus does not nearly as much.
. Every single one of these choices, and i mean EVERY SINGLE ONE are make this exactly like brood war. While I do agree that many of these need adjustments, just saying let's go back to brood war isn't much of a solution. As I said, I am not wanting these changes only for the sake of turning back to Broodwar, but for the sake of making the game better. Because all these units I meantioned in their current SC2 form are much less amazing than their counter part in Broodwar. They provide less options, less micro, less tactical value. All they're better at as their broodwar pendendands is fighting head on. And that is a terribly boring trait of a unit.
We already have one BW, making one more with just better graphics is lame and redundant. I strongly object returning any of BW units, if possible i wouldnt have any at all.
Make new units, with new game mechanics, thats what i want. And if there are some balance problems, mechanics problems, reverting them to BW style is just terrible.
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Units I dislike in their current state, not because of balance but because they are boring:
1) Colossus (I play Protoss btw)
2) Corruptors
3) Marauders (w/Slow)
Honorable mention: Roaches
The only thing carrying Roaches into 'mildly exciting' at the moment is the speed and burrow upgrades.
Marauders are just plain boring, the only time they can be slightly exciting is when dropped or sniping Colossi etc. Otherwise dull. Terran did not need another heavy anti-armour unit.
Corruptors: Ability = dull, they don't look exciting. I suppose they can morph into Broodlords, but... meh.
Colossi - promote a deathball playstyle, don't require a great deal of skill to use, their ability and upgrades make them LESS exciting instead of more... Just dull.
While we are talking about what we DON'T like, I think it would be good to mention what units we DO like (coolwise rather than balance-wise):
1) BANELINGS
2) Ghosts (NUKE)
3) HTs/Archons
Honourable Mention: Mothership
Also like to mention that ANYTHING used in drop-play is exciting, but for drop-play to be exciting you need the dropship and the units, so they didn't fit on.
Mothership - cool abilities, shame it's been nerfed significantly. None of it's abilities are clearly amazingly powerful, and the cloak-everything-near promotes deathball mentallity, but the Mass Recall has potential (I know, shamelessly stolen from SC1 Arbiter). Ideally, Cloaking Shield should be replaced with something else which promotes splitting army up etc. I was thinking perhaps the Mothership could have an ability which makes air units around it faster. This would help Carriers as well and promote more air-play which we don't see lategame. However, it wouldn't be exciting and seems more a balance change than a 'fun' change.
Hts/Archons: STORM. Feedback wars with Ghosts and Infestors. ARCHONS ARE SO COOL. Pretty much all I have to say. HTs use cool abilities and then morph into a massive ball of energy.
Banelings: Massive splash damage, on Marines/Zerglings/workers/buildings. Just overall very cool. Undecided as to whether they are better than Lurkers were though...
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On June 01 2011 21:32 Tchado wrote:
I know this is off topic , but we please have daily tournaments and clans like warcraft 3 ? it seems like it won't happen in WoL .
There are various tournaments every night, if look around almost any time you ll find something.
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On June 01 2011 21:34 Mali__Slon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 21:32 Tchado wrote:
I know this is off topic , but we please have daily tournaments and clans like warcraft 3 ? it seems like it won't happen in WoL . There are various tournaments every night, if look around almost any time you ll find something.
I think he means the automated tournament system that WC3 had.
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first of all, i cry on the inside when a terran says he needs more drop options. Your dropship is a medic....
Well, uninteresting units/features...
1) Colossus. It's stupid who a whole fucking race is designed around these goddamn things. I'm not raging about it being overpowered, but why is it that colossus is really the ONLY viable option? Sure you can try for timing attacks or whatever, but what protoss do you see go into late game without a colossus? None, because gateway units lose a ton of their efficacy late game (except the sentry as a dual caster/fighting unit), storm is pretty bad as a stand alone thing. Brood War toss had some interesting dynamics between templar, arbiters, reavers, archons, and just straight up gateway units. The colossus as a unit just takes away the fun of protoss for me, because even as a random player, I can think to myself, ok, how does this effect how he goes colossus every single game. It's never if, it's when.
2) "chargelots" and Stalkers: I think it's stupid that they changed legs to charge. Sure, charge is pretty cool, but up until you engage, you just have a bunch of slow ass zealots. Stalkers are a nerfed version of a dragoon, and as a result, late game, stalkers are pretty bad (see colossus).
3) Thor. Why. The. Fuck. did they replace the goliath with the thor? How do you make the anti air unit bad against air? The cool thing about goliaths was they had like infinite range and a high rate of fire. Goliaths were great at holding mutalisks back, regardless of their formation. The thor is only good against mutas if the zerg player doesn't know how to magic box. Also, they were good against single targets. The thor discourages "mass" air but can't really do shit against a dropship harass because of it's low RoF/damage, but it's necessary to deal with the fact that that it has huge splash, it would just make mutas a non option if it actually had a decent RoF/Damage. Also, the thor, really, is just a fighting unit in ScII. You remember thorzain's thor timings? They made this thing so it looked bad ass, and it did a lot of damage to ground, but forgot what it's purpose was. You just didn't want to make goliaths unless your opponent was going carrier or had a lot of mutas because they weren't the best fighting units, but thors just decimate the ground. I'd 100% rather have the goliath back (as a zerg player. It's rediculous that if i know how to magic box I beat the "anti-air" unit.
4) Addons/Macro Mechanics: These seem cool (you can build 2 marines at a time! You can get four extra larvae if your queen pisses on a hatchery!) but just serve to make the game faster. This is a big reason we don't see the huge long slugfests with engagements all game long. Why not just hit 200/200 when you're significantly stronger? It's only an extra 5 or 6 minutes (2 if you're zerg). Also, it's a big reason why agression is so good right now. 2 gate powergoon was scary as hell for terrans in BW, but what the hell can you do with 2 gates now? Nothing. Sure, I only have one hatch a base now as zerg, which feels cool, but why? I can hit 200/200 SO fast, as a result, everything has to be worse. They're fitting the units around this idea. You can't have BW lings with larvae inject, because lings would kill EVERYTHING. I can have like a billion speedlings off one hatch really fast. Each larvae was precious in BW, now they're pretty disposable (whatever, I have 16 extra larvae on the way in a second). Also, the system is much less transparent which makes scouting hard. Is he doing 2 hatch or 3 hatch? There was a major difference between 2 haching and 3 hatching, but in scII, you just have a billion larvae available to you.
5) Marauders. I'd love to have sat in on the meeting the Maruader was shit out of. "So, terran bio is pretty good against zerg. Yep. Terran bio is pretty bad against protoss. yep. Fuck that, we don't want anyone to go mech, besides, how would mech work against against the colossus and with the thor. Scrap it, we're putting grenade launchers on firebats.
6) "counter" units. Quite a few units in SCII are sort of designed to "counter" another unit. For example, vultures were pretty good against zerglings when they couldn't be surrounded and were great at killing off workers. The replacement (hellion) took that concept of good against light infantry and said "you know what, instead of this really mobile unit being able to micro and kill stuff, lets just make it so anything in it's path that's light just dies. How stupid is that. 1 blue flame hellion gets into your base and all your drones are dead. I'm fine with a harassment unit that's really good against light so is good against workers, but taking that to the extreme of "lets make it so they all die if they get hit, because, you know, it's good against light" is stupid.
7) banelings. So, the unit itself is pretty cool. But, it just removed a ton of utility. Banelings took the place of the aoe dealer, the lurker. Lurkers were pretty essential becuase they delayed pushes, as tanks would have to leapfrog up to deal with them as the lurkers leapfrogged back. They were really good agains tmassed units (marines, etc). The baneling burrow on the other hand, is just like a hold position lurker. Yeah, if your opponent happens to walk right on top of them, they're really good. If he doesn't though, and has any kind of detection, you have no recourse, they just die. Also, a suicide unit as a core unit is something I have a problem with. If a lurker hits one marine, that marines just going to die, it a baneling hits one marine, it's going to die and the marine will as well. There's no longevity to your investment, you just have to hope your opponent doesn't split. Also, it's pretty rediculous how much damage they just do instantly.
8) Raven. Pdd is pretty cool, i guess, but is super limited. Sure, PDD is good in TvP, but that's really the only thing it's good at, besides spotting cloaked things. They should make it worth the gas you're shelling out.
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I think zerg needs something like scourges from BW so we have something else to take out medivacs apart from mutas. It would give us more of a choice to not make mutas every ZvT game.
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Since I am a protoss player most of these suggestions are going to be directed towards tweaking protoss, for I have little understanding for other races and the difficulties they are facing at this state of the game. Sorry if it is kind of biased.
- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Warp Prism
- This unit is one of the 2 most underplayed unit in the protoss arsenal in my opinion. Pylon power mechanic is what defines a warp prism essentially, because when it goes into prism mode its basically becomes a pylon. So in order to increase the effective usage of warp prism, I thought that the pylon needs some tweaking. This is any unit standing/hovering under pylon power will receive increased plasma shield regeneration and cool down time, to say, starts recharging in around 5-7 seconds (opposed to 10) and 3 shield/sec (opposed to 2/sec).
- Why would this be good? because after transforming into a prism it is stationary. This means if a protoss player is going for a drop it wouldn't be a constant heal, like a medivac. It would mean that if they want full efficiency they would need to stand under the circle (which should be smaller if this mechanism is implemented)
2. Carriers
- This is the 2 one out of the two most underplayed unit, just because of its cost/build time/etc. I haven’t come up with a brilliant idea for it yet, however I would share my thought for it to date now. If the intention of the design for carrier is to be a support it should be some splash/low shield hp/glass cannon unit, like other support units (tanks/infesters/banelings/colossus). So instead of all the interceptors focusing on 1 target it should be targeting 8 different units each time it flies out. This would give a constant output of dmg that is splash like.
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
+ Show Spoiler +
As mentioned before, I would like to see the radius of the pylon that gives power give a defender’s advantage, which coincidently is what Black Octopi is looking for. Again just summarizing what I have elaborated on before. Units on the pylon power field grants faster shield regen, starts recharging in around 5-7 seconds (opposed to 10) and 3 shield/sec (opposed to 2/sec). This would be interesting to see as a strategy where a player would retreat to a specific location to recharge their shield before coming back into battle with additional warp in back up
- What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see?
- A map that is mountain like with deep valleys separating the two players :D
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EPT
