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On June 01 2011 11:11 mordk wrote:
You usually kill the voids first, since if, as you correctly say, you let them charge, they become insane. The thing is, as I stated before, these strategies are becoming quickly obsolete, because to gather that 4+ collossi, 4+ VR with enough stalkers and sentries ball, you need A TON of time, which good players are no longer giving, particularly zerg, who are going for bigger early game pressure, which means you can't deathball like that anymore. It only works against passive, bad players.
Which is why, ultimately, VRs are not versatile. They either rush in the early game, if unscouted, or go into a huge lategame ball which is not really that viable anymore. They don't harass, they don't give map control, they're not fast, they don't provide tactical advantages, they suck in any other composition different from the ones being discussed, they don't really have "utility". Mutalisks have WAY more uses and aspects than VRs, so do marines and stalkers, even zerglings are more versatile than VRs.
I'm not saying they're a bad unit and should be removed. I think protoss could use a well-rounded flyer, not overpowering, and not needing any special circumstances to be useful.
Well I think you framed your argument quite well and now I agree with you.
Indeed, stargates in general are a rare sight in progames unless they are proxying it vs. Terran or following up a FFE vs. Zerg.
Perhaps something akin to what speedrays used to be, but not quite as potent?
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Problems with existing units:
Warp Gates
Reason:
Negating distance is sooo stupid. It gives no defenders advantage at all! Genreally in Protoss games there is never any back and forward action like you see in TvZ. This is because of stupid warp gates, if you can't kill the protoss ball in the first push you are dead because of instant reinforcement anywhere on the map.
Solution:
If a pylon is not near a nexus, then warp in is 3-4 times slower. This means warp gate is still useful for defence but not OP when attacking. Give warp prisms normal warp in time and this unit will actually become useful.
Collosus
Reason:
Too strong and easy to use. Basically means when a Protoss pushes, it is kill the whole ball or lose. It also forces you too make a hard counter AA unit. Very boring unit.
Solution:
Not sure.
Marauder
Reason:
This is such an anti micro unit, once concussive shells hit you escape is impossible. It doesn't make sense that a unit that requires no micro can unleash such a powerful spell.
Solution:
Make concussive shells an active ability.
Roach
Reason:
When I think of ZvP all I can see in mass roach and attack move. Where is the skill in that? Very boring and easy to use unit.
Solution:
Not sure.
Baneling
Reason:
It is an awesome and fun unit but too easy to use. Only problem is that it doesn't require much skill to use, most people just move it past the tanks then attack move.
Solution:
Get rid of auto explode, make it so the only way a baneling blows up is if you hit the 'x' button. This means zergs will actually have to micro and have sick baneling control (maybe increase damage to compensate?). It will help seperate top tier zergs from noob ones. Only exception is when dropping from an overlord where they will instantly explode.
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- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
1. Queen - A 2 supply unit that is kind of lackluster. Its spawn larva and creep tumor mechanics are undoubtedly important, but for the majority of the game the queen's support abilities are more utility in design and not especially exciting. (Ever heard, "Ohh look at that Queen inject that larva!"?)
2. Thor - Large, slow, and pathfinding issues and energy vulnerable. (Would of put Ultralisk, but they already know)
3. Raven -- Hunter seeker missile nerf has dropped this unit into almost non-existance. Would like to see something replace this ability
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
Feedback -- High templars have become the end-all be all anti-caster unit. Any unit that has energy has to be designed around this unit; from the amount of energy to the cost of spells. If Blizzard starts introducing new caster classes they'll all be vulnerable to templars and make them extremely more valuable than they are now.
- What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see?
Nydus worm alert -- consider whether it needs to go, or perhaps the alert will only sound when in light of sight. The nydus has many applications, not just aggressive attacks. Revealing that your building a network for your hatches will alert your opponnent to maintain vigilance.
Spine crawlers -- these giraffe heads have a visual presence that is jarring and oftimes ridiculous looking.
Zerg sounds - make them slightly more distinguisable. This is more of single player issue. I hope they take some more inspiration from Brood War. As offputting as some of those screams and screeches were, they were unique and added more personality to the race.
- What type of new units/buildings would you like to see?
...can't think of any. Good job Blizzard for covering your bases.
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On June 01 2011 12:21 mousepad wrote:
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
Feedback -- High templars have become the end-all be all anti-caster unit. Any unit that has energy has to be designed around this unit; from the amount of energy to the cost of spells. If Blizzard starts introducing new caster classes they'll all be vulnerable to templars and make them extremely more valuable than they are now.
Maybe I'm biased, but this really doesn't seem like a bad thing. Toss can't remax an army as efficiently as Z or T can, meaning that unit preservation is critical. If our army gets chain fungaled, hit with mass EMPs, our robo units are hit by strike cannons, etc., we're put behind by a fair margin and probably can't remax in time to defend.
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- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
Mothership i think its a complete fail this unit needs major redesign because no one use it it costs so much supply its slow and u can build only one of it.The spells of the unit are useful but require so much tech.
Colossus is my 2nd pick because the unit is so strong but with no real disadvatage.They are mobile can walk up on high ground from low ground and walk onto your units.They are easy to micro with great dmg output i think they are like the reaver before blizzard made him dumb.
Marines are my final pick because their dps is so strong that you can't pass them if you play terran but late game when the aoe units come out you are stuck at t1 units and there is no strategy involved or transitions you just get marines and roll whole game with them even with the aoe units out 1 mistake by the opponent means he is dead.Just look at what MKP was doing in TvT.
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
I think the warpgate mechanic needs to be tweaked cuz I think it makes "x warpgate push" at every map possible. The other thing that should be redesinged is the way AoE works and how the units clump into each other....
- What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see?
No idea about those.
- What type of new units/buildings would you like to see?
Some kinda of map control units for zerg and terran.About buildings i think they should make the dt shrine and the templar achives to be 1 building.
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I just want to see anything that makes deathballs weaker and skirmishes stronger.
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This is just in terms of how subjectively "fun" it is to use the units. I'm not really speaking to balance here or audience enjoyment. Just as a player, which units are not that fun to use.
Boring Units: Zerg
Hydras in broodwar were signature zerg. They were the meaty mid game units you needed in your army, and maintained their utility vs terran because of the lurker morph and as a counter to vultures. In sc2, their role is pretty much taken up by the roach. So now they are boring a-move army, and you only make them for anti air until you can get corruptors out. I say to hell with the hydralisk. Combine them with the queen and add something new for early game offensive anti air. Or just make queens cheaper and buff their move speed a little bit. Crazy ideas but anything would be preferable at this point.
Corruptors are boring. Not much disagreement here.
And i am sad as hell to say this, but Ultras are also pretty boring. They dont feel all that terrorizing, and it takes forever to get them. And for most circumstances, you would rather go for brood lords instead. In broodwar they were suave as hell, but in sc2, they just come a little too late, a little too weak.
Boring Units: Terran
I'm actually hard pressed to say what terran units are boring. I think as a whole every terran unit fits rather well with everything else. With the possible exception of hellions, i think if they had a active ability it would make things more interesting, but as a whole not much complaint here.
Boring Units: Protoss
Mothership. Back when the archon toilet was viable, mothership at least had a moment of awesome all to itself, but not its just a slow ass arbiter. Not terribly interesting. It's not like it sees a lot of game time anyways.
Collosus are boring. Not much debate here. I'd much rather see a collosus buffed a bit and then take the role of the mothership. Its a late game destroyer unit that strikes fear into the heart, is a high priority target, but can be out maneuvered. At the moment they are a mid to late game unit, impossible to destroy en mass, and just a-move over everything. IMO make it bigger and merge it with the mothership.
In general I'm not too happy with the robotics bay. Collosus spamming makes immortals obsolete. I'd love to make more immortals, but collosus just win better, the opportunity cost really kills immortals.
I actually do
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remove vikings
remove thors
remove colossus
buff gateway units
add reaver
nerf mutas
remove FF
game awesome. I'm tired of HAVING to go colo all the time, and im tired that my stargate is 100% useless in PvT because of ONE unit. Vikings are OP air to air because they have to deal with colossus. I miss the days of Goliath vs Carrier micro.
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Wow I'm surprised (and pleased) this thread hasn't been shut down yet.
However I do think many people are being overly negative. You shouldn't say "they need to remove X", instead it should be "they need to redesign X"
Like with Sentries. Remove them from the game entirely and you break the race; instead think about how they could redesign the unit to make it BETTER (not worse) for Protoss. For example, two problems that Protoss currently face are lack of early game scouting and lack of detection. What if they used the Sentry to solve these problems by giving them the ability to cast a Scan (ala Terran scan) at a short range. And exchange, tone down its effectiveness as a combat unit by somehow tinkering with either Guardian Shield or Forcefield.
These would be my 3 unit redesigns:
1. Corruptor. It is an AtA specialist that gets dominated by most other air units. It is also the only Air unit in the game that cannot significantly impact ground units. The Corruption ability does not any strategy to the game, its just an apm sink. I feel like they need to decide to either make the Corruptor THE anti air solution for Zerg, or turn it into a genuine spellcaster. Right now it does a weak job at both.
2. Thor. I feel like they made the Thor fill too many roles at once. It soaks damage with its massive HP. It is the only factory unit with an anti-air attack, and even then it's almost worthless vs non-light air. It sieges buildings with strike cannon. It countersieges units with strike cannon. It harasses very well as a Thorship. It crushes forcefields. And because it does all these things its ridiculously expensive. I feel like they need to split up the Thor's role into two smaller (and cheaper) units instead of being one big expensive catch-all.
3. Dark Templar. I hate the fact that DTs are an all-or-nothing unit. Ridiculously powerful if undetected, totally worthless if detected. They turn games into instawin or instaloss with very little inbetween. Instead I'd like to see them redesign DTs into EITHER a powerful harass unit OR a powerful melee unit. Its silly to make a glass cannon with a melee attack; melee units need to have either strong defenses or fast speed in order to be useful in battle. The DT has neither, it only has cloak which is 100% worthless when revealed.
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On June 01 2011 12:19 Highways wrote:
Baneling
Reason:
It is an awesome and fun unit but too easy to use. Only problem is that it doesn't require much skill to use, most people just move it past the tanks then attack move.
Solution:
Get rid of auto explode, make it so the only way a baneling blows up is if you hit the 'x' button. This means zergs will actually have to micro and have sick baneling control (maybe increase damage to compensate?). It will help seperate top tier zergs from noob ones. Only exception is when dropping from an overlord where they will instantly explode.
I disagree. The only time banelings are used on Siege Tanks and the Zerg player is still fine is when they have a MASSIVE macro advantage. They are also pretty useless without the speed upgrade.
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On June 01 2011 13:19 kNightLite wrote:
3. Dark Templar. I hate the fact that DTs are an all-or-nothing unit. Ridiculously powerful if undetected, totally worthless if detected. They turn games into instawin or instaloss with very little inbetween. Instead I'd like to see them redesign DTs into EITHER a powerful harass unit OR a powerful melee unit. Its silly to make a glass cannon with a melee attack; melee units need to have either strong defenses or fast speed in order to be useful in battle. The DT has neither, it only has cloak which is 100% worthless when revealed.
I don't think you understand how DT are used at a higher level. There is an idea of a DT expand. It is where protoss gets the DT to take map control. It forces the terran to save up scans or get a raven before he can push. This buys you time to get an expo. Obviously it would be beneficial if you did some damage, but it is in no way all or nothing.
There are strategies that require you to do damage or you come out behind, but that is not mean "all in" (paraphrasing).
DTs can also be used late game to test your opponent. It won't win the game but you may set your opponent back in some ways.
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On June 01 2011 13:19 kNightLite wrote:
Wow I'm surprised (and pleased) this thread hasn't been shut down yet.
However I do think many people are being overly negative. You shouldn't say "they need to remove X", instead it should be "they need to redesign X"
Like with Sentries. Remove them from the game entirely and you break the race; instead think about how they could redesign the unit to make it BETTER (not worse) for Protoss. For example, two problems that Protoss currently face are lack of early game scouting and lack of detection. What if they used the Sentry to solve these problems by giving them the ability to cast a Scan (ala Terran scan) at a short range. And exchange, tone down its effectiveness as a combat unit by somehow tinkering with either Guardian Shield or Forcefield.
These would be my 3 unit redesigns:
1. Corruptor. It is an AtA specialist that gets dominated by most other air units. It is also the only Air unit in the game that cannot significantly impact ground units. The Corruption ability does not any strategy to the game, its just an apm sink. I feel like they need to decide to either make the Corruptor THE anti air solution for Zerg, or turn it into a genuine spellcaster. Right now it does a weak job at both.
2. Thor. I feel like they made the Thor fill too many roles at once. It soaks damage with its massive HP. It is the only factory unit with an anti-air attack, and even then it's almost worthless vs non-light air. It sieges buildings with strike cannon. It countersieges units with strike cannon. It harasses very well as a Thorship. It crushes forcefields. And because it does all these things its ridiculously expensive. I feel like they need to split up the Thor's role into two smaller (and cheaper) units instead of being one big expensive catch-all.
3. Dark Templar. I hate the fact that DTs are an all-or-nothing unit. Ridiculously powerful if undetected, totally worthless if detected. They turn games into instawin or instaloss with very little inbetween. Instead I'd like to see them redesign DTs into EITHER a powerful harass unit OR a powerful melee unit. Its silly to make a glass cannon with a melee attack; melee units need to have either strong defenses or fast speed in order to be useful in battle. The DT has neither, it only has cloak which is 100% worthless when revealed.
disagree on DT's
lategame ZvZ dt's are great cost effective at fighting expansions. warp in 5 DT go in kill the spore crawler at a zerg expansion and you can snipe the hatchery before overseer arrives.
lategame zerg runs in 70 zerglings to attack 1 of protoss expansions while army is advancing towards zerg main. some cannons are there to help defend while 6 DT's warp in. now you have 6 DT's that are 1shotting lings left and right killing them all saving expansion/probes. a worthwhile investment for 750/750
lategame you have a DT patrolling 1 side of the maps bases. zerg starts a hatchery there and is forced to cancle as a DT starts hitting it. zerg must now send a 50/100 overseer there to counter that DT that costs 125/125
dt's lategame are definitely worth the value
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Anything that prevents micro is uninteresting.
Forcefield + Fungal. -___-
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zerg
zerglings with auto surround
very hard micro due to how retardedly fast they move and with auto suround micro is not even rewarded. when was the last time you say a zerg actually micro lings to surround during a fight?
curputor
lame unit all around with near useless ability
hydras
rapes gateway units on creep. dies instantly off creep. just give it some speed and nerf the damage a bit.
fungle growth
preventing micro + doing damage = lame
terran
marines without overkill
just retardedly strong and it doesnt even makes sense for them not to overkill, how is the marine next to the other one know who is about to die.
concsive shells
does nothing other than prevent micro.
thor
stupid unit which kills everything without micro.
helion
like a fast reaver which can score over 20 probe kills and costs only minerals. moves too fast (the vulture was good since it had a buggy ai so micro and movement took skill)
protoss
charge
takes away all zealot micro.
forcefields
lame to lose to some retarded cheeser just because you missed a ff on your ramp. nearly uncounterable for t and z.
colossi
stupid unit all around.
voidray
lame unit as well since it doesnt overkill
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I will speak only from the Z PoV.
I think Corruptor is a really boring unit. I understand that Z needs a flying unit that can keep Air Control almost at all costs, if Z wants so. But i would rather have some fast, versatile unit, maybe also change corruption to do some DOT dmg to ground units (not to be completely useless when it has killed of air).
I would also like to add some form of "evolve" function to infestros after they have used up their energy. Similar to Archon. Since they are the only thing that remains useless after 1 fungal in battle.
Other then that, I would really like if they add some interesting units to Z which can abuse Cliffs (really needed considering all the stuff T/P have). And some harass unit which will allow z to do some pressure and not defend so much and be tunneled into attacking chokes.
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From talking about uninteresting units to OP units lol.... anyway
3 most uninteresting units imo
Colossus
Archon
Corruptor
Most terran units are pretty interesting imo
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I think that changing the damage mechanic for buildings would signigicantly help the game. Rather than being considered 'armoured', buildings would simply be considered a 'structure'. In addition to this, all units would have a specific damage to the 'structure' class, which for balance purposes would be the same as their damage to armoured in many cases.
However I feel that the case of the marauder, which were designed to be anti-armour, they are often used as anti-structure units too. For the marauder its damage to buildings would be reduced to its non-armoured damage.
This marauder change would not only reduce the ridiculous efficiency of marauder drops, but also increase the use of the reaper, which has a specific anti-building attack.
Perhaps, whilst the reaper may not be a combat unit, I feel that it was specifically designed in order to perform hit and run attacks on buildings. Admittedly, the reaper would also need a buff to its building damage to fill this role.
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My only main gripe, is the mechanics that slow the game down.
So for example;
Marauder conc shells,
Infestor's fungal
or even Sentry Guardian Shield (as it makes things last longer)
I think the worst is the concussive shells. I don't think it's overly broken or anything, but it's just a bad mechanic as it slows the game down so much as it removes the ability to micro, and reduces the willingness to engage at all.
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*wades into topic*
Protoss
Observer - ok it's a cloaked scout, but I find it's plain dull. Everytime I have to build an observer I just think "uhh, 75 gas and 1 supply that I'll never see a return on". In a game they are just plain forgettable, I'm thinking a lot of players just skip them now days or only use them to stick with their army to spot cloaked/burrowed units. What could be done: don't know. An ability, even an averagely average one, would make it interesting.
Collosus - Though I think a lot of the arguments for this unit being "boring" are confused with thinly veiled "OP" arguments, I do agree the collosus is a bit dull, moreso from a Protoss players point of view. "Oh I'm against <race>, Collosus are good against them". In a way I wish Collosus were weaker against one race just so they weren't relied upon as much. I mean, Siege tanks are great, but not great against P. Collosus are great, and good against everything? Can try be cute about doing other Protoss builds, but most wins come from a Collosus deathball at the end of the day sadly.
Mothership - Sure, abilities are great, but generally I find the mothership a bit dull. See a mothership, response is: "Ok so I need detection and it's going to vortex me with 99.9% guarentee." I find sentries a more interesting casting unit...
Terran
You know, I actually don't think any of the Terran units are dull. Sure, reapers could potentially use a buff. Sure Marauders seem really powerful with stim+conc. And sure, mech is not great against Protoss. But you know what, every unit in the terran tech tree is, from my PoV, interesting in it's own way. Been thinking about switching to terran for some time now.
Zerg
Overseer - For the reasons Blizzard basically stated. It's a glorified scout, even changelings are just another way to scout with no success in higher leagues. Contaminate is a great ability, but since that's all Overseers are good for they just don't seem interesting enough. Maybe if OL drops could be done with Overseers also?
Hydras - They're just not interesting. If you're getting hydras, you're going to use them in an army vs army attack. Unlike the utility options for other units (whether it's the pure speed of zerglings, or roach burrow movement), hydras are only used to go kill the other guy. I've been saying I think hydras need an ability for a while, still think thats a good option.
Corrupters - For the same reason as many others mentioned. Basically they exist to shoot down air or morph into brood lords. I think they do their job well, but doesn't make them less dull because of it.
Anywho, that's my take 
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I think most everyone's "most uninteresting" list is just the same as "hasn't found full potential yet" or "wasn't in BW so should go".
As far as most boring:
1- corruptor: it has only one role, anti-colossus
2- mothership: useless in general
3- viking: see #1. transform to ground mode also useless
can't really think too much of mechanics that need changed. Most anything that anyone wants changed is based on a balance issue, which i don't really prefer to delve into
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EPT
