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The marauder is interesting because it opens up alot of viable tech choices for terran - you are not purely restricted to mech, like what was very common in Brood War. It needs to stay.
I think the Colossus, Corruptor and maybe even the Roach are boring units. I think the Reaper and Hydralisk need to be reassessed. I also think that the Thor needs its Strike Cannons looked at, because as of their energy removal they were possibly too strong, and now with the energy they are useless.
As for new units, I think the idea of bringing back the lurker is flawed, but I think zerg needs a new unit to replace the old lurker, a unit that has a similiar sort of mechanic. The lurker was a fantastic design but it won't work specifically in SC2 in my opinion; a new unit with a similiar concept but different execution must be introduced.
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On June 01 2011 10:00 Kazang wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 09:34 Carmine wrote:I would like to preface this post by saying that I believe there is two very vocal groups of people who are pushing their opinions. I believe their biases are making their suggestions bad. - Brood War Regressives - They want the lurker and they want T1 hyralisks so bad it hurts.
- Bad people - Think concussive shells and force fields are OP or "boring".
For what unit changes would make the game more interesting: The Colossus needs a fix, but overall I like the unit. The idea of the Colossus is really great. It is just a little too powerful in large numbers. Weakening it would open up the possibility of legitimate Templar choice, including builds that use the Robo facility for support, like observers and warp prisms. The Corrupter needs a change. It's role is too limited right now. Its spell sucks. Maybe a new spell, or something else interesting to help it out. Preferably something that wouldn't leave it completely useless after the Colossus or (lol) capital ships are dead. The Reaper was never really a good unit. It was only useful for early timing or for 5 rax reaper. It should be completely removed in favor of a more useful, gas heavy bio unit. (not caster but utility or something). Now..separate from that, I will dream for a second: Nydus should be hatch tech (analogous to warpgate). It should also have a lair tech upgrade that makes it more useful somehow. Maybe - giving it an attack (like a weak Planetary fortress, helping Zerg to hold ground and harass at the same time!)
- faster unit releasing
Good post. Luckily Blizzard are not as dumb as the vocal players who want things for bad reasons. I agree with your choices except the aside about the nydus worm, that would just disallow anything but heavy one basing from P or T which would suck. Nydus worm doesn't really need a buff, it is actually amazing, it is just underused because of the current state of the game.
I agree with all of carmine's points except the nydus to hatch tech. I like the idea of leaving the nydus at lair with a hive upgrade that doubles the unit release speed (or something like that). Or maybe even lair upgrade, it depends on how strong it is and w/e.
The attack is interesting, summoning nydus worms for 100 gas to make a position stronger in a very short amount of time is kinda cool and would be a nice addition to cover the slow build time of spine crawlers, although if its still lair tech it will probably be too late to help w/ early game cheesy (which is what hurts zerg anyway.
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On June 01 2011 09:12 mordk wrote:
A versatile unit is, for example, the stalker. The mutalisk. The marine. They are "core" units which can be useful in nearly any composition. The VR is no such thing.
Yes it is, why do you think the 'Colo VR' ball is so popular?
Mutalisks are not versatile, they do very little damage, have little health, no range, and die to any antiair if they so much as hover within their range for a second. Their strength lies in the fact that they fly and they move fast. They can harass mineral lines and kill things like tanks that only shoot ground. Thats about it. Their gas/mineral/supply ratio makes them restrictive, you basically have to spam lings and banes or risk floating lots of money.
Voids have higher range, health, damage, are stupid cost effective when charged, complement any composition and don't eat up metric tons of gas requiring you to mineral sink like mutas. If you have a stargate and don't want to use it for phoenix anymore, it's quite reasonable to build them slowly, one at a time to add to your ball. They sit behind your ground forces and right in front of your colossus, probably the safest spot in the world. 3-4 void rays in a gateway/robo mix actually get to charge up and just wreck everything so quickly. Even if the enemy has lots of corruptors or vikings, the voids and stalkers rip them to absolute shreds when they dash forward to snipe colo. If the other guy is just A moving his air to air units, then the voids die but the colossus get off significantly more damage than they would in the absence of voids.
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United States975 Posts
Spawn larvae is uninteresting. I hope they end up removing it and end up returning to more of a BW style. I just find it overall uninteresting and doesn't contribute to the game in a positive manner at the moment.
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On June 01 2011 10:13 zeehar wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2011 09:34 Carmine wrote:
The Colossus needs a fix, but overall I like the unit. The idea of the Colossus is really great. It is just a little too powerful in large numbers. Weakening it would open up the possibility of legitimate Templar choice, including builds that use the Robo facility for support, like observers and warp prisms. a colossus nerf without a corresponding templar or carrier/stargate buff would just be a toss nerf...
Who said Protoss doesn't need a nerf. I think assuming all 3 races are balanced right now is going a little far. It is a change that would help many matchups. I believe it was Tyler that said "when protoss needs to learn a different strategy then we will".
oh and someone said the hydra wanted to be unique and needed to be changed. well guess what, all hydras did in BW was attack. they didn't chew up gateway units like they do now, and they didn't have the option to morph into lurkers until the expansion.
not every unit needs an "ability" to be unique.
I totally agree with this and want to use this idea a little in my reply further down.
On June 01 2011 10:15 Spawkuring wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2011 09:34 Carmine wrote:I would like to preface this post by saying that I believe there is two very vocal groups of people who are pushing their opinions. I believe their biases are making their suggestions bad. - Brood War Regressives - They want the lurker and they want T1 hyralisks so bad it hurts.
- Bad people - Think concussive shells and force fields are OP or "boring".
So we're "bad people" for having an opinion, and you don't even give a reason why either. Comments like yours are basically just trolling.
You are not bad for having an opinion. You are bad at the game and your opinion makes it obvious. Good players have already figured out play styles to deal with these things..so crying about them at this point shows that you don't know what you are doing. A good way to illustrate this is that anyone complaining that spawn larva isn't forgiving enough isn't the kind of person who is using spawn larva well...and very likely isn't the kind of person who is doing a lot of other things well. It is people who think their uneducated opinions are good that I am talking about.
On June 01 2011 10:21 Ezekyle wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2011 09:34 Carmine wrote:I would like to preface this post by saying that I believe there is two very vocal groups of people who are pushing their opinions. I believe their biases are making their suggestions bad. - Brood War Regressives - They want the lurker and they want T1 hyralisks so bad it hurts.
- Bad people - Think concussive shells and force fields are OP or "boring".
Well fuck you too. Just because you're part of the minority who somehow finds collosus going bzarp to be interesting and strategically deep doesn't mean you can insult everyone who disagrees with you.
Because choosing an area to throw down a storm is SO much more interesting. I think your other biases (not the reasons you state) are the reason you say things. Every unit doesn't need a gimmick to be a useful or interesting unit. The cliff walking and synergy with blink stalkers (give high ground sight and both cross cliffs) makes for interesting confrontations in my opinion.
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I would really like for them to do something about the corruptor unit ability. It's an extremely bland ability, and is not the type of ability that makes the game interesting or allows for strategies to be based around it (blink, graviton beam, invisible.) I know they originally had a more interesting idea for it, so they clearly did not intend for this current ability to exist, it would be great if they took a look at it.
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On June 01 2011 10:32 HiredGoonThug wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 09:12 mordk wrote:
A versatile unit is, for example, the stalker. The mutalisk. The marine. They are "core" units which can be useful in nearly any composition. The VR is no such thing. Yes it is, why do you think the 'Colo VR' ball is so popular? Mutalisks are not versatile, they do very little damage, have little health, no range, and die to any antiair if they so much as hover within their range for a second. Their strength lies in the fact that they fly and they move fast. They can harass mineral lines and kill things like tanks that only shoot ground. Thats about it. Their gas/mineral/supply ratio makes them restrictive, you basically have to spam lings and banes or risk floating lots of money. Voids have higher range, health, damage, are stupid cost effective when charged, complement any composition and don't eat up metric tons of gas requiring you to mineral sink like mutas. If you have a stargate and don't want to use it for phoenix anymore, it's quite reasonable to build them slowly, one at a time to add to your ball. They sit behind your ground forces and right in front of your colossus, probably the safest spot in the world. 3-4 void rays in a gateway/robo mix actually get to charge up and just wreck everything so quickly. Even if the enemy has lots of corruptors or vikings, the voids and stalkers rip them to absolute shreds when they dash forward to snipe colo. If the other guy is just A moving his air to air units, then the voids die but the colossus get off significantly more damage than they would in the absence of voids.
Agreed. VR is the most bad unit implemented in SC2, along with infestors.
It's all purpose just a-move unit. VR ground attack had better be Scout-like (from bw). So, it would be solid AA but pretty weak Anti-ground unit.
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On June 01 2011 10:32 HiredGoonThug wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 09:12 mordk wrote:
A versatile unit is, for example, the stalker. The mutalisk. The marine. They are "core" units which can be useful in nearly any composition. The VR is no such thing. Yes it is, why do you think the 'Colo VR' ball is so popular?Mutalisks are not versatile, they do very little damage, have little health, no range, and die to any antiair if they so much as hover within their range for a second. Their strength lies in the fact that they fly and they move fast. They can harass mineral lines and kill things like tanks that only shoot ground. Thats about it. Their gas/mineral/supply ratio makes them restrictive, you basically have to spam lings and banes or risk floating lots of money. Voids have higher range, health, damage, are stupid cost effective when charged, complement any composition and don't eat up metric tons of gas requiring you to mineral sink like mutas. If you have a stargate and don't want to use it for phoenix anymore, it's quite reasonable to build them slowly, one at a time to add to your ball. They sit behind your ground forces and right in front of your colossus, probably the safest spot in the world. 3-4 void rays in a gateway/robo mix actually get to charge up and just wreck everything so quickly. Even if the enemy has lots of corruptors or vikings, the voids and stalkers rip them to absolute shreds when they dash forward to snipe colo. If the other guy is just A moving his air to air units, then the voids die but the colossus get off significantly more damage than they would in the absence of voids.
It is popular because:
-It's easy to do
-It only requires 2 bases
-It works when facing really passive players
Voids are soft as crap, are super non cost-effective when uncharged, and are only useful in 6+ numbers, since they're so weak any decent player will focus them down and kill them before they charge up. If you charge up 3-4 VRs in a gateway/robo mix then your opponent just sucks horribly and made no units to counter VRs. If terran allows VRs to kill all their vikings they're just doing it wrong, and if zerg uses corruptors to counter VRs they're just doing it wrong, of course they rip them to shreds. These are the reasons why VRs are popular on ladder, but increasingly less popular on high-level tourneys and games.
It really has nothing to do with the versatility or lack thereof of VRs. Mutalisks on the other hand, are fast, grant huge map control advantage, deny expansions easily, are a pretty decent burst damage unit in any composition, can snipe specific units, and are decent against any unit except marines, phoenixes,HTs, mass hydralisks and blink stalkers (And actually, with decent micro they do quite well at forcing and wasting HT energy). Also, when in mass, mutalisks are almost unstoppable. The only thing I agree with you on about mutalisks is their restrictive gas cost, but being cheaper would make them imbalanced.
On June 01 2011 10:46 Jimbo77 wrote:
Agreed. VR is the most bad unit implemented in SC2, along with infestors.
It's all purpose just a-move unit. VR ground attack had better be Scout-like (from bw). So, it would be solid AA but pretty weak Anti-ground unit.
WTF??? The scout was THE worst unit in ALL of BW. So bad it served as a joke, since one time a korean beat a foreigner using scouts, and it was like, the worst humilliation ever.
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On June 01 2011 10:44 Carmine wrote:
You are not bad for having an opinion. You are bad at the game and your opinion makes it obvious. Good players have already figured out play styles to deal with these things..so crying about them at this point shows that you don't know what you are doing. A good way to illustrate this is that anyone complaining that spawn larva isn't forgiving enough isn't the kind of person who is using spawn larva well...and very likely isn't the kind of person who is doing a lot of other things well. It is people who think their uneducated opinions are good that I am talking about.
Why do you keep talking from a balance and skill perspective? Balance is not the point of this thread and it never was. It's about the game design itself and making sure that it's incredibly skillful to play and entertaining to watch.
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On June 01 2011 10:44 Carmine wrote:
Because choosing an area to throw down a storm is SO much more interesting. I think your other biases (not the reasons you state) are the reason you say things. Every unit doesn't need a gimmick to be a useful or interesting unit. The cliff walking and synergy with blink stalkers (give high ground sight and both cross cliffs) makes for interesting confrontations in my opinion.
Because I totally said HT were an interesting unit, didn't I. Collosus are a stupid unit that does everything without requiring the slightest bit of skill. HT are a meh unit that is incredibly powerful but has noticable drawbacks and requires a small amount of skill. I agree completely about gimmicks being unnecessary and irritating. Cliff walking and standing on top of allies is a gimmick, and the collosus would be at least vaguely interesting without them.
EDIT: Before you start screaming BIAS at me, roaches are a stupid unit that don't require the slightest bit of skill. Hydralisks are a stupid unit that don't require the slightest bit of skill. Ultralisks are a stupid unit that don't require the slightest bit of skill. Corruptors are a stupid unit that don't require the slightest bit of skill. Broodlords are a stupid unit that don't require the slightest bit of skill. Those units are all bad, they just aren't as bad as the collosus because they lack retarded gimmicks like 'can do everything'.
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On June 01 2011 10:47 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 10:46 Jimbo77 wrote:
Agreed. VR is the most bad unit implemented in SC2, along with infestors.
It's all purpose just a-move unit. VR ground attack had better be Scout-like (from bw). So, it would be solid AA but pretty weak Anti-ground unit.
WTF??? The scout was THE worst unit in ALL of BW. So bad it served as a joke, since one time a korean beat a foreigner using scouts, and it was like, the worst humilliation ever.
I didn't say it must be scout, but the way VR works makes no sense to have Carriers. VR serves all the purposes P can have.
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Collosus
Overseer
Viking or Siege Tank :-)
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On June 01 2011 10:44 Carmine wrote:
You are not bad for having an opinion. You are bad at the game and your opinion makes it obvious.
..
I think your other biases (not the reasons you state) are the reason you say things.
So in short, people you disagree with are either bad or they have "biases".
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- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
-Carriers: severely underused besides mass carriers in team games, they need a severe change. (does anyone know how often carriers were used in BW?)
-Collosus: agree with what someone said before, A-move while the rest of the army is a meat shield. Maybe remove the range upgrade... or the dual attacks. Maybe just fire a single laser.
-Overseers, as stated previously, just a glorified scout.
- What mechanics do you find needing tweaks? or badly designed.
-I think the snipe mechanic needs to be fixed, when there needs to be multiple threads on it just so people know how to use it effectively, there's definitely a problem.
-shorter build time/burrow time for spine crawlers
-the 75% salvage on bunkers is still too much... make it 50. A terran should be punished for a fail 2 rax, not on even footing.
- What graphic/misc tweaks do you want to see?
-eh idk. i'm not a huge visual effects guy. maybe make ghosts die in a more manly way.
- What type of new units/buildings would you like to see?
-I never played brood war, but i would love love LOVE to use lurkers. That would be awesome. (technically an old unit).
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On June 01 2011 10:47 mordk wrote:
It is popular because:
-It's easy to do
-It only requires 2 bases
-It works when facing really passive players
Voids are soft as crap, are super non cost-effective when uncharged, and are only useful in 6+ numbers, since they're so weak any decent player will focus them down and kill them before they charge up. If you charge up 3-4 VRs in a gateway/robo mix then your opponent just sucks horribly and made no units to counter VRs. If terran allows VRs to kill all their vikings they're just doing it wrong, and if zerg uses corruptors to counter VRs they're just doing it wrong, of course they rip them to shreds. These are the reasons why VRs are popular on ladder, but increasingly less popular on high-level tourneys and games.
But what about the 3-4 colossus behind the voids? Thats why the corrputor/viking are out in the first place. The colossus is the big target at the back, and the gateway units at the front (especially the chargelots) are distracting everything. The marines and hydras aren't gonna do anything about the voids. The mutalisks are gonna die to the stalkers (unless as you say, they have a huge cloud of them), and everything else that shoots air and can reach the voids is probably gonna be focusing on colossus or waiting for a better opportunity to focus on them. The only disadvantage to making the voids if you have the stargate open is you get a couple fewer warpgate units for each one. Other than that, I see no reason not to include voids in a standard ball.
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On June 01 2011 08:58 shin ken wrote:
Mechanics: Spawn Larva is the most unforgiving macro-mechanic compared to Mule/Chronoboost because there's (almost) no way to spam spawn larva unlike mules or chronos when you lost focus.
Just allow multiple spawn larva on a hatcherie. They don't have to be instantly active (although it would be very zerg-like and asesome to add like 16 larva and spawn them into 24 lings ^^) - just let them stack up. With a small delay so it would be a little bit more effective spawn larva more frequently.
Disagree. And I play Zerg. Perfect Larva Injects gives you a *huge* macro advantage over "perfect" MULEs or Chronoboosts. They would have to take away that advantage if they made it easier to do perfectly.
It's one way for good players to distinguish themselves, tbh. Let's not dumb down things even more.
On June 01 2011 10:58 HiredGoonThug wrote:
But what about the 3-4 colossus behind the voids? Thats why the corrputor/viking are out in the first place. The colossus is the big target at the back, and the gateway units at the front (especially the chargelots) are distracting everything. The marines and hydras aren't gonna do anything about the voids. The mutalisks are gonna die to the stalkers (unless as you say, they have a huge cloud of them), and everything else that shoots air and can reach the voids is probably gonna be focusing on colossus or waiting for a better opportunity to focus on them. The only disadvantage to making the voids if you have the stargate open is you get a couple fewer warpgate units for each one. Other than that, I see no reason not to include voids in a standard ball.
Voids are also still pretty damn good uncharged these days. I feel like the guy you quoted is still stuck on pre-"change" (not gonna call it a nerf or buff) VRs.
Also, VRs counter Corruptors, not the other way around. Most people don't think of it that way for some reason, but it's true.
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I definitely would like to see spawn larvae changed to some other ability. It should I think allow energy to build up to some degree, like chrono boost or mules, and also should just be a mechanic that just improves macro instead of being such a focal point of Zerg macro.
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i definitely think they should remove some units... i think there are some units that just make the game less enjoyable
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On June 01 2011 10:56 Jimbo77 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 10:47 mordk wrote:On June 01 2011 10:46 Jimbo77 wrote:
Agreed. VR is the most bad unit implemented in SC2, along with infestors.
It's all purpose just a-move unit. VR ground attack had better be Scout-like (from bw). So, it would be solid AA but pretty weak Anti-ground unit.
WTF??? The scout was THE worst unit in ALL of BW. So bad it served as a joke, since one time a korean beat a foreigner using scouts, and it was like, the worst humilliation ever. I didn't say it must be scout, but the way VR works makes no sense to have Carriers. VR serves all the purposes P can have.
VRs and carriers are completely different. Carriers aren't used because they're fragile for cost and supply and because interceptors get killed making carriers useless, marines don't even need to kill carriers, just A-move and kill interceptors. It's not related at all to VRs.
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On June 01 2011 10:58 galtdunn wrote:
- What 3 units in the game need to go into the redesign list?
-Carriers: severely underused besides mass carriers in team games, they need a severe change. (does anyone know how often carriers were used in BW?)?
They are a very common site as a late end-game unit in PvT to take abuse certain map terrain and take advantage of the fact that mech was the only viable choice for Terran against Protoss.
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EPT
