EPTGomTV caster: "Growth of e-sports" - Page 5
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Vorlik
1522 Posts
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Kazeyonoma
United States2912 Posts
On May 27 2011 20:31 zaii wrote: They have to go through open bracket the next time they attend MLG, unless they all place 1,2,3,4. Which is very unlikely. the players have to pay their own way to come back to the states as well (or their teams/sponsors, same situation as foreign teams, first time is covered, but subsequent times are not). | ||
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Fubi
2228 Posts
Just as Mr.Chae said, players like Nestea, MVP, MC, etc would go to the states/europe had the situation of the SC scene be reversed. So to me, all these excuses coming from the foreign teams are just excuses to cover up the lack of dedication, mentality and skills from their players. edit* And I hope Mr. Chae understands, posts like the ones from Fnatic's Xeris do not represent what a majority of foreigners feel about Gom/Korea. In fact, a lot of us are pretty much in agreement with Mr. Chae even before he posted this. | ||
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Mycl
Australia1370 Posts
On May 27 2011 20:24 Kazeyonoma wrote: what does the difficulties of team management have to do with what i said. I said the rants and raves that the team management posted by fnatic have been mostly whine posts about minor things that are downright insulting to the korean sub culture who believe in striving to be the best. they are big names for a big team, and what they say can negatively reflect upon the foreign scene, so much so that mr chae had to come here and respond to it because he himself was shocked. yes it takes a lot of effort and lot of things do have to be taken into account to manage a team, but when gom offers you a fully paid trip and housing to go play in their tournament, and you claim you'll turn it down because of these trivial lifestyle problems, it just makes you sound like a whiner. Gom has been nothing but supportive and responsive in a professional manner, i can't say the same for foreigners responses (not all, like i said, the loud minority). If you have legal obligations to contracts, or you can't go because you're married, that's fine, say that's why, and move on, but don't try to put it on GOM and blame GOM for their efforts as not far reaching enough. What do you want them to do? pay for your wife and kids to come over here too? build you a faster overseas internet connection so you can play in online tournaments as well? I'm not positive what threads or comments you are talking about. I'm assuming its the thread Xeris posted? That wasn't a big whine/rant post. I cant remember the thread fully but the main point I got out of it was how the logistics of sending your team to Korea is very difficult. When you started ranting about insulting the Korean sub culture you completely lost me. | ||
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legatus legionis
Netherlands559 Posts
On May 27 2011 20:24 Phayze wrote: Kind of ridiculous to ask a person living outside korea to come to a gom house for an entire month with only $1500 on the line --- If they win. You can make that here in Canada working at Mcdonalds. In addition to dedicating an entire month tournament that is quite competetive they have to put up with living conditions that are not at all like the ones seen in foreign countries. The experience is no doubt an amazing one, and the practice would be second to none, but there is alot going on in the foreigner scene that is more comfortable for foreign players, and is more lucrative. For the most part, Koreans stayed in Korea, and foreigners stuck to the foreigner scene. Sure there were exceptions but I dont think this is something that will change overnight, and you cannot expect it too with the foreigner scene getting massive attention. If you win MLG you now get a spot in Code S, but Koreans who enter MLG get directly seeded into the championship bracket, and earn points that will keep them in the championship bracket. This immediately makes the never leave the championship bracket without having to ever earn their way there. They dont have to play 15 sets during the open bracket vs countless styles of all-ins and they are never tested vs worse players. I dont feel this is fair. I can see how going to play in Code A is a great opportunity, but for the top foreign players the only logical reason to go would be for better practice, in the hope of better results down the line due to their experience and training in Korea. OK I'm just gonna do the following to rebuttle an argument I see come up frequently. You say they will never leave the championship bracket. Why do you say that? Are they better players? Why are they better players? If they have been able to become good players that will never leave championship brackets vs foreigners once they get there. Then why wouldn't a foreign want to become a player that will never leave championship brackets once they get there? You see where I'm going with this? All the living discomfort or temporary set backs don't weight up in time once you have become once of those beast. Once you are the situation totally changes. It's almost like saying you would rather go and work and live in an appartment for the rest of your live, then bunk in a noisy dorm with shitty foods little to no privacy and jocks that push you around but once you got your degree you can buy your own house and a car and all those things. I'm not trying to downgrade anything with this, it's just that I see this as an almost perfect analogy. And it's an incredibly important part because it can define the rest of your live. | ||
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Feijichang
China167 Posts
On May 27 2011 20:23 bmn wrote:Leaving behind your entire social circle for a serious amount of time, and for reasons that they may not value as much as you do, is not something that you can simply pay back later -- some friendships will be lost, many opportunities for new social contacts will be gone. If you don't speak the language and aren't embedded in the Korean culture, there's no way you can compensate for that during your time there. Especially given that many of the progamers are at an age which is often considered the prime time to start finding serious partners and (socially) getting settled, that is not something to shrug off easily. The "social circle" of a legitimate progamer consists of countless hours interacting with your friends or teammates on-line. These friendships can easily be maintained.. on-line. And if a month is a serious amount of time, an amount of time that will make you actually lose friendships my mind is completely blown. Men in the military go over seas for years at a time with a wife and children at home.. I could spend 6 months in Korea and my friends would be cheering for me at 5 in the morning, nevermind if I only spent 1 month. | ||
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phrenzy
United Kingdom478 Posts
Risk/Reward From what i can tell there is very few SC2 tournaments in Korea. Moving to a different country for a month for one tournament is a big investment, if not for the money then for personal stress. If a EU/NA player can play in 5 online tournaments a week and win between 5th and 1st place consistantly why would they give that up? Not to mention short but highly rewarding LAN tournaments like Dreamhack or MLG. The risk for a consistantly good player to move out for a month to Korea is time, money (if not for the expenses that may/may not be covered by GOM then by the amount lost in estimated tournament winnings) and of course pride. I feel a pro-player who might lose in their opening round of mlg or dreamhack will be very disappointed but not soul-defeating, if that was to happen to them with the GSL it could be devastating for a player. Im not saying it shouldn't be so, but there is a lot of pressure and add to the fact that there are more options in NA/EU, its a level of pressure that can be circumvented whislt still earning and also solidifying a player's reputation.This is something i feel that has already occured for at least one very talented player. The Solution SC2 needs to spread more in Korea. This is something that is out of GOM's control unless tournaments become ridiculously short to the point where a player to fly out on the Friday and come back with 3rd place on the Monday. If there were more tournaments in Korea then a player who will spend a month there wont feel like they are putting all their eggs into one basket. From the recent news of Kespa and Blizzard making "peace" there might be another major high level SC2 tournament to compete in. But right now, from what i am aware of, there is only one. So for right now, i feel that time will solve this problem. The game is hardly a year old (retail), the Korean vs The world tournament was a huge success, i would like to see more of those. But right now there isnt much other than the GSL from what i can tell. This again is my personal view based on what different players have said/not said. I may be totally wrong and i apologize if i may have offended anyone. | ||
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integral
United States3161 Posts
Think of it this way. Let’s assume that there is backward universe; There is LAN tournament with equivalent size and prize pool as GSL in USA and tournaments in Korea are mostly online. If MVP, MC, Nestea and MKP were to be invited to States to participate in LAN tournament for a month(and they will be provided a place to sleep and practice like GOMTV is providing now), would they decide to go to US? I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. I think a major reason why players are not going to korea right now is that quite simply, there is too much competition. I'm sure MVP, MC, etc. want to compete in as many tournaments as possible -- how many tournaments in the world would they not be favored to win, or at least place high? The same is not true of the vast majority of foreigners, and the true standouts in the foreign community don't need the GSL. From an economic standpoint, these players can earn (almost) as much money, respect, and fame by playing in the wide variety of tournaments outside of korea. The fields are simply less competitive. So while I'm excited to see your initiative to support foreigners coming to korea, and while I find it admirable that you do not want SC2 to be just a Korean e-sport like Brood War was -- I would assert that for SC2 to be truly global, foreigners need to develop their own competitive scenes, not just move to korea and participate in the Korean leagues. Not only is it not detrimental for this to happen, it is NECESSARY for it to not be a repeat of broodwar's korean dominated scene. I, too, have a dream: With the establishment of foreign pro-houses all over the world, prestigious LAN events like MLG and Dreamhack will become more and more competitive. The average skill level of these tournaments will rise until the competition is as stiff as it is in Korea. I have a dream that one day the world will not be divided into "foreigner" and "korean", but by the level of their gosu. I have a dream where even the word "foreigner" brings stoic memories of a more shameful time, when the world was segregated into "Korea" and "everything else". Yes, I have a dream that players from countries all over the world will be able to game together on equal footing. And to all I say: gl hf | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On May 27 2011 20:24 Phayze wrote: Kind of ridiculous to ask a person living outside korea to come to a gom house for an entire month with only $1500 on the line --- If they win. You can make that here in Canada working at Mcdonalds. In addition to dedicating an entire month tournament that is quite competetive they have to put up with living conditions that are not at all like the ones seen in foreign countries. The experience is no doubt an amazing one, and the practice would be second to none, but there is alot going on in the foreigner scene that is more comfortable for foreign players, and is more lucrative. For the most part, Koreans stayed in Korea, and foreigners stuck to the foreigner scene. Sure there were exceptions but I dont think this is something that will change overnight, and you cannot expect it too with the foreigner scene getting massive attention. If you win MLG you now get a spot in Code S, but Koreans who enter MLG get directly seeded into the championship bracket, and earn points that will keep them in the championship bracket. This immediately makes the never leave the championship bracket without having to ever earn their way there. They dont have to play 15 sets during the open bracket vs countless styles of all-ins and they are never tested vs worse players. I dont feel this is fair. You honestly think that we should put Bomber/MMA/Losira up against people like destiny or response? Cmon, give me a break, I would have as much a chance at winning that match. Why would you want to subject them to a retarded amount of all-ins anyway? Huk and naniwa showed that a real pro can easily make it out of the open bracket effortlessly, and I'd say all three koreans are better than those two. It's a silly argument. And ya, 1500 on the line.... except if you only make Ro8 and get through up/down matches, in which case you will now be making that amount EVERY SINGLE MONTH without even having to win a match, and playing for 50K. You are being overly selective of facts you mention when discussing the pros and cons. Plus, sure leaving your family and friends suck, but it's your job man. It's like a salesman complaining he'll never be home and has to travel everywhere. That's just how it goes. Fact of the matter remains that I GUARANTEE YOU that every single foreigner player would instantly go to korea if they were good enough to win Code S, the biggest tournament in the world with the biggest prize pool. All the top earners in SC2 are koreans that play in the GSL, and basically every other reason is just an excuse trying to dodge this fact. There is easier money to be made in the west, you can't blame players for going for it when they're not good enough to compete in korea, but it's annoying when they try to make other excuses for it | ||
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Agnosthar
631 Posts
Can't wait to see Naniwa in Korea, hopefully a foreigner wins MLG and takes the code S spot too. | ||
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oBlade
United States6304 Posts
On May 27 2011 20:33 phrenzy wrote: SC2 needs to spread more in Korea. This is something that is out of GOM's control unless tournaments become ridiculously short to the point where a player to fly out on the Friday and come back with 3rd place on the Monday. I remember Nony having said that he personally preferred short LAN events to league events. | ||
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namedplayer
844 Posts
They have a korean who can speak English, they have Niniwa who is willing to go to Korea. | ||
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Kazeyonoma
United States2912 Posts
On May 27 2011 20:32 Mycl wrote: I'm not positive what threads or comments you are talking about. I'm assuming its the thread Xeris posted? That wasn't a big whine/rant post. I cant remember the thread fully but the main point I got out of it was how the logistics of sending your team to Korea is very difficult. When you started ranting about insulting the Korean sub culture you completely lost me. the fact that xeris made a large complaint about the cost of sending players to korea would be too great, yet cost of living is covered already because of the gom house. he also goes on to talk about the mlg gsl exchange, and complains about airfare costs when it's already been announced that the costs will be covered for qualifying players, yet he refuses to update his post, and users are reading his OP, getting the wrong impressions about Gom, the GSL, and the foreign scene overall and you see even 29 pages in, users reply to just his post and say "wow, so true", when they're obviously reading a misinformed post. THAT is not professional. the second thread is the one posted by fams. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226447 | ||
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zaii
Guam2611 Posts
On May 27 2011 20:32 Kazeyonoma wrote: the players have to pay their own way to come back to the states as well (or their teams/sponsors, same situation as foreign teams, first time is covered, but subsequent times are not). Foreign players have to pay their own way back home? I'm pretty sure that's covered. | ||
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Krehlmar
Sweden1149 Posts
The fact that one of the biggest reasons that no foreigner wants to go to korea is because most of them are subpar to even Code A koreans. Yet if you have read/listened to alot of feedback from pro's alot of them sound less than eager or downright negative towards koreans gaining spots in different competitions. Incontrol said "well sure I want to beat a guy like MC in the finals I just dont want 8 koreans in my bracket and having this and that much harder to blablabla" point is if not a person of MC's skill then who? Some godamn scrub? What the fuck are we suppouse to pay tournaments for if not to supply the absolute BEST players, and what fucking pro-gamer is "pro" if he can't compete against the very best or at the very least have confidence he wont get smashed? Yeah ofcourse nobody wants to meet a really hard opponent in every matchup... but if you do not practice well enough to BE that hard opponent, you do not deserve to win. | ||
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Anda
Germany152 Posts
At the End it's all about the money, if there are 100.000$ Tournaments in the USA and 75.000€ Tournaments in Europe (something like GSL) many Koreans will move to Europe/USA. | ||
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: Hello Teamliquid Firstly, “Foreign players can now participate as a mercenary in Korean team”. You may be able to see Jinro or Huk as member of oGs-TL in team league. Holy ****, that is incredible news. Also, I hope someone tells them that the whiny, unreasonable tone of Fnatic does NOT represent the majority of the community, as shown by the vastly negative response to their posts. | ||
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jaydee81
Germany119 Posts
I think the main reasons for players not willing to go over might have been a bit misunderstood, but then again I have not read every single thread about this. I also raise an eyebrow whenever somebody brings up leaving friends and famaily behind, because this was never an issue for me (and I worked in some different placed and cultures for more than 1-2 months), but that's anyones personal opinion of course and it might be more difficult for other people. I always took it as a great personal experience. The other reasons which have been brought up against going there, especially to Code A, are very understandable in my opinion. I'm personally very excited especially about the fact that GSTL teams can use foreigners. I'm not sure if this will have an effect on people actually deciding to go to Korea, but it would certainly improve the practice environment for anyone who does, which was one of the things some pros have pointed out (as in it doesn't necessarily help you that much to just go over and then play on the Korean ladder obviously). It'd be really great to see some foreigners on the GSTL. Also very excited for whatever is announced next. Fnatic or Dignitas taking part in GSTL maybe? | ||
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FarbrorAbavna
Sweden4856 Posts
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Disquiet
Australia628 Posts
On May 27 2011 20:14 Feijichang wrote: The MLG-GSL exchange is absolutely incredible.. I've yet to see a legitimate foreign pro speak as to why they would decline the offer that wasn't bound by contracts and other obligations that were making them money(Idra, Incontrol). Foreign players used to never play for the money, and that argument is sickening, doubly so when considering the players making it aren't winning much money in the foreign scene either (Fnatic, and seeing Xeris is beginning to become synonymous with Don't Read). True competitors will be drawn to the GSL, not for the money, but to be the best. Naniwa said it best on a podcast recently that he will be going to the GSL to prove he is a world-class player. Also... a free trip to Korea is freaking amazing and seems to be overlooked quite often. Homesickness and not being intrigued by competing in a foreign country are the weakest thing I've ever heard, and obviously those people are not "professional" gamers. It's a month... I agree, homesickness is a pretty weak excuse for a single month. People travel for business all the time, people travel on holidays all the time, I don't see how gsl is so different. Even if you don't do well well its still an excellent experience in my books. Given the opportunity I'd go to korea to play even if I didn't think I stood a chance and just view it as a holiday. | ||
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