My name is Chae Jung Won and I’m both GSL Code S commentator and manager of GSL operation team.
I’ve been reading the recent threads which have been posted at teamliquid.net. Lot of foreign players have listed the reasons for why it’s difficult for them to come to Korea and participate in GSL. While I understand some of these, I do not understand others.
First of all I want make it clear that the purpose of this thread is not to rebut the posts I mentioned above. The decision whether to make sacrifices to attend a tournament which is extremely competitive or not is completely up to one’s own and I respect that. The only thing I’m upset about is that most of the reasons mentioned are something GOMTV can’t solve(I doubt anyone can), and as for the problems that can be solved, GOMTV is doing its best to find solution. It’s just that this is easier said than done, because there are many things that needs to be considered, lot more than people realize.
Think of it this way. Let’s assume that there is backward universe; There is LAN tournament with equivalent size and prize pool as GSL in USA and tournaments in Korea are mostly online. If MVP, MC, Nestea and MKP were to be invited to States to participate in LAN tournament for a month(and they will be provided a place to sleep and practice like GOMTV is providing now), would they decide to go to US? I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
I am also aware that reaction on Korean community sites about foreign players declining invitation to Super Tournament because of its schedule have been translated and posted on teamliquid.net. There seems to be misunderstanding and it must be made clear that those opinions were solely about Super Tournament. I understand that in GSL regular season, making it to Code S beginning from Code A is very difficult for foreign players as there is too much to risk, and that is why we made League Exchange program with MLG. However my interview that was posted on PlayXP was response regarding an anonymous Fnatic person’s answer concerning Super Tournament, who gave reasons such as “1month is too long” “prize pool is not deep enough” “there is language barrier”. I was little startled when the interview was posted as the tone was much more aggressive than I actually had felt. At the time I was doing the interview, my feelings were more like “hmm? Interesting”.
Now enough about the misunderstanding, as I’m sure many of you are tired of it as there was discussion thread about it for a week. I’ll move on the good news.
As many of you are aware new GSL format will be applied in July. I’ve read many posts on teamliquid.net that people want to see more GSTL and also poll between GSL and GSTL. There have been many same requests from Koreans too and after long consideration I have changed the format more focusing on team leagues.
However the problem with new format is that it makes it difficult for foreign teams to participate in team league as they will have to stay in Korea for 2 months.
I tried my best to solve this problem and although I admit this is not the perfect solution here it is.
Firstly, “Foreign players can now participate as a mercenary in Korean team”. You may be able to see Jinro or Huk as member of oGs-TL in team league.
Accordingly, foreign players who come to Korea through MLG League Exchange, Rakaka tournament in Sweden, or come by themselves and qualify will not only be able to participate individual league but can also participate in GSTL as part of Korean team.
I cannot “force” the Korean teams to accept foreign players to their roster and have them play at least one set per match. However, Korean teams are willing to form alliance or partnership with foreign teams and they have stated that they will be happy to accept if there is any foreign team or player willing to join force. In fact Korean teams are very eager to recruit able foreign players.
If any foreign player who is entering GSL individual league and also wants to be part of team league feel free to contact either me or my assistant John. Through cooperation with Korean teams you will be provided with better practicing environment and opportunity to be part of GSTL.
Also I am open to idea of non-Korean team coming to Korean and play in GSTL. I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you.
I have provided “opportunity” through “system”, and “opportunity” is all that I can provide. Creating “results” is not my job but up to the players themselves, through their will and amount of practice.
Super Tournament is being held at the moment. I am always open to your opinions. I do not want SC2 to be just Korean e-sports thing like Brood War was. My goal is to make a league which viewers all around the world can enjoy and get hyped when watching.
I was 1st generation pro-gamer myself(I’m still in TLPD) and have been working in e-sports over 10 years.
Many of things that are happening now in e-sports are changes that never happened in past 10 years. I’m sure that you too feel that e-sports is evolving rapidly. If e-sports players and technology is running at 100km/h and if GSL and other tournaments can keep up with the speed we can create many wonderful things which we only dreamed of past 10 years.
I’m always grateful to viewers who watch GSL. I will soon get back to you with great news Also I will be attending MLG Columbus together with players from Korea. I have decided to go to MLG to witness the enthusiasm of American fans with my own eyes.
GOMTV has always struck me as being incredibly accommodating to foreigners, and this is just 1 more (big)step that just reinforces that to me. Whatever the foreigners decide, just know that you are doing an incredible job over there.
Keep up the good work! I have paid for all GSL tournaments and will keep doing so. Hope you can attract some more foreigners (Naniwa says he really wants to go) and grow the GSL inside korea aswell as outside.
Awesome thing you guys did with the MLG, would be awesome if you guys did the same with TSL and Dreamhack since these 3 are the biggest tours outside korea.
And GSL has always been nice to forigners in my oppinion.
I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you
Interesting. FXO? Can't be TL or EG (or is it?). Fnatic maybe? ARGH can't wait for that announcement ^^
What an amazing response. Thank you for posting your rationale and explaining your thought process. I am happy so see the care and love you have for developing ESPORTS as a whole, and I will continue (as always) to support every GSL event by buying a season pass ^^
I agree completely. I think all the reasons the foreigners give is basically spawning from the fact that they don't think they're good enough to win the whole thing, and instead of participating in the hardest tournament in the world for the most money, they would rather settle for easy cash in the west (players like Idra, Incontrol, TT1, etc... that could be in GSL but choose not to be). This is easily evidence by a player like Naniwa, who IS good enough to at least compete, and can't wait to go there. These are the kind of players I love, who strive for the most competition, not the easiest reward.
Not to mention ALL the tournaments that they say they will "miss out on" are online tournaments, which koreans play in..... Doesn't make sense to me. Language/culture barrier is also very silly, look how well HuK and Jinro did staying with oGs!! If you're motivated, you can overcome such things sooooo easily. And now that more korean teams are on board for housing foreigners, they will be able to have the best practice in the world, playing in the best tournament in the world for the most money in the world.....
Love the mercenary idea. Hopefully we'll see other teams form alliances like oGs and TL have if they aren't able to send their entire team over but can send a few at most.
The one thing I'd love the most is to have it air earlier like they are on Friday / Saturday in Korea but I don't think that might be possible but getting up at 4am sucks compared to it airing at 11pm.
I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you
Interesting. FXO? Can't be TL or EG (or is it?). Fnatic maybe? ARGH can't wait for that announcement ^^
it's gotta be dignitas. naniwa has talked about spending time on korea, select *is* korean and I think sjow mentioned it in the past at some point. i couldn't see it being any other team.
Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option' - why would Liquid who was willing once to have their entire team (or close to it) in Korea do it again when they can just lease HuK and Jinro off to oGs or another team? Also, do the prizes from GSTL go to the team themselves or the players? Would foreigners get equal prizemoney to the original players?
Trying to follow your favourite foreigner/team could also cause issues especially if players switch teams each time they go over to participate.
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you
Interesting. FXO? Can't be TL or EG (or is it?). Fnatic maybe? ARGH can't wait for that announcement ^^
it's gotta be dignitas. naniwa has talked about spending time on korea, select *is* korean and I think sjow mentioned it in the past at some point. i couldn't see it being any other team.
Yeah I'm thinking that dignitias has to be the biggest candidate for this. We'll just have to wait and see ^^
GSL is doing a great job, and you guys do alot to try and get foreigner to go, I don't think there is much more you could do short of paying all-expenses.
With the new changes coming in it shows that you do care about the foreigners (if not from the MLG exchange program).
Firstly, “Foreign players can now participate as a mercenary in Korean team”
I find this to be so very exciting! :D:D
I hope more of our foreign teams are able to use these opportunities more. It really would be so much more exciting if we had some of our favorite foreign teams in the GSL. ^_^
But seriously -- the news is awesome, of course, but I also really appreciate you taking the time to post here and explain things from your point of view. Really excited about all the changes you guys have made to make the GSL more accessible to foreigners. I can't wait to hear the team announcement -- that seems like a huge step to me. A team going to Korea together solves a lot of the issues that players going alone would have to deal with.
On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote: Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option'. Also, do the prizes from GSTL go to the team themselves or the players? Would foreigners get equal prizemoney to the original players?
Trying to follow your favourite foreigner/team could also cause issues especially if players switch teams each time they go over to participate.
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
This. The OP doesn't actually address the specific issues that are creating this problem in the first place. His "backward universe" analogy just creates a circular argument and he mentions nothing about the language, lifestyle, the length/potential profitability of the tournament and whatnot. There is just no substance to his argument. So which concerns exactly from the foreigners do you not understand?
I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you
Interesting. FXO? Can't be TL or EG (or is it?). Fnatic maybe? ARGH can't wait for that announcement ^^
yeah FX0 best bet... followed by Empire (well 0 chance but it would be cool)
On May 27 2011 20:00 ffadicted wrote: Amazing post <3
I agree completely. I think all the reasons the foreigners give is basically spawning from the fact that they don't think they're good enough to win the whole thing, and instead of participating in the hardest tournament in the world for the most money, they would rather settle for easy cash in the west (players like Idra, Incontrol, TT1, etc... that could be in GSL but choose not to be). This is easily evidence by a player like Naniwa, who IS good enough to at least compete, and can't wait to go there. These are the kind of players I love, who strive for the most competition, not the easiest reward.
Not to mention ALL the tournaments that they say they will "miss out on" are online tournaments, which koreans play in..... Doesn't make sense to me. Language/culture barrier is also very silly, look how well HuK and Jinro did staying with oGs!! If you're motivated, you can overcome such things sooooo easily. And now that more korean teams are on board for housing foreigners, they will be able to have the best practice in the world, playing in the best tournament in the world for the most money in the world.....
What's not to love?
The money required to actually go there?
The time away from your family?
The lack of money-earning potential considering the small chances that you have of actually getting anywhere. (not that foreigners are bad, but there are so many other players that actually getting to the top is easier said than done)
But I do like the main post. And I can't wait to hear the news concerning the foreign team that might actually go!!! :D
On May 27 2011 20:01 gogatorsfoster wrote: The whole mercenary idea sounds awesome. I would definitely do it if i was a foreigner in the gsl
nothing really new. when madfrog was the only foreigner remaining in korea during wc3's peak period, he played for frienz after everyone in sk (heman, insomnia etc) went back home.
I can't see why other teams would want a temporary foreign merc in their team instead of a committed member of their own team but why not allow a foreigner only merc team to participate? They could be like the ACE team in BW, no one really expects them to do well but when they do people would be happy for them
Also thanks very much for the work GOM does in producing the GSL, it's still the only group of tournaments I watch regularly, great production, great casters, exciting formats and excellent VOD delivery system.
If I'm reading this right and what you're suggesting is that players could join the teams for team league etc (Huk/Jinro in oGs-TL etc) then this could get over one of the bigger arguments against going over to Korea which is a lack of decent practice partners.
I recall IM Head Coach saying that their roster is lacking and they're having trouble finding players? Maybe this sort of thing could help them?
On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote: Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option'. Also, do the prizes from GSTL go to the team themselves or the players? Would foreigners get equal prizemoney to the original players?
Trying to follow your favourite foreigner/team could also cause issues especially if players switch teams each time they go over to participate.
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
This. The OP doesn't actually address the specific issues that are creating this problem in the first place. His "backward universe" analogy just creates a circular argument and he mentions nothing about the language, lifestyle, the length/potential profitability of the tournament and whatnot. There is just no substance to his argument. So which concerns exactly from the foreigners do you not understand?
I think his point was that that stuff didn't matter enough to affect the decisions of MC/MKP/Nestea/MVP. They have the drive and desire to play on the biggest stage for the biggest prize, akin to what HuK and Jinro are doing in Korea, and all that other stuff comes 2nd to competing.
Thank you for this post and all your hard work, all these changes are great and I can see that you guys at GOMTV are trying your best to help foreign players. I cannot wait to see players like Jinro and HuK playing with oGs in the team league and another foreign teams/players possibly playing. Also very interested in seeing what teams are interested, I'm guessing FXO or Dignitas
The amount of effort and money that the GSL team puts towards bridging the gap between the foreign and Korean scene despite all of the difficulties involved, is simply... awesome. It's things like this that make me respect and value the GSL & their team.
On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote: Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option' - why would Liquid who was willing once to have their entire team (or close to it) in Korea do it again when they can just lease HuK and Jinro off to oGs or another team?
Well, first off... the Korean teams have to accept the players.
However, I don't think that there is any team right now that would want to send their full team, but isnt because there isn't an easier option. It's just that most people would prefer not to go.
This makes it much easier for single or very small groups (2-3) players go to Korea for GSL. I'm thinking Naniwa for example might really love this.
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
Its about the fame and the glory! Winning a prestegious tournament like the GSL is a great title. And of course the nice first place and second place prize pool.
I think language, lifestyle, and leaving friends behind are small things that aren't really valid excuses. Thats what happens when you go to a new place -- it's an experience. And theyre not too difficult to work around.
Cost and time commitment on the other hand... Well, I think its really mostly about the prestige. If you're in it for just the money, GSL really isnt a good option for a foreigner.
That was a great post to clear up some of the "upsets". GOMTV shows that they really want to expand esports and sc2 all over the world, and for that we as the community should love them.
And I'm really curious about what the huge surprise is!
I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you
Interesting. FXO? Can't be TL or EG (or is it?). Fnatic maybe? ARGH can't wait for that announcement ^^
The MLG-GSL exchange is absolutely incredible.. I've yet to see a legitimate foreign pro speak as to why they would decline the offer that wasn't bound by contracts and other obligations that were making them money(Idra, Incontrol).
Foreign players used to never play for the money, and that argument is sickening, doubly so when considering the players making it aren't winning much money in the foreign scene either (Fnatic, and seeing Xeris is beginning to become synonymous with Don't Read).
True competitors will be drawn to the GSL, not for the money, but to be the best. Naniwa said it best on a podcast recently that he will be going to the GSL to prove he is a world-class player.
Also... a free trip to Korea is freaking amazing and seems to be overlooked quite often.
Homesickness and not being intrigued by competing in a foreign country are the weakest thing I've ever heard, and obviously those people are not "professional" gamers. It's a month...
On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote: Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option'. Also, do the prizes from GSTL go to the team themselves or the players? Would foreigners get equal prizemoney to the original players?
Trying to follow your favourite foreigner/team could also cause issues especially if players switch teams each time they go over to participate.
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
This. The OP doesn't actually address the specific issues that are creating this problem in the first place. His "backward universe" analogy just creates a circular argument and he mentions nothing about the language, lifestyle, the length/potential profitability of the tournament and whatnot. There is just no substance to his argument. So which concerns exactly from the foreigners do you not understand?
and with 1 fell swoop, Gom shows it's maturity and awesomeness, and makes fnatic managers look like fucking assholes. gg.
love that you are a frequenter of TL.net and read and take our feedback seriously. I just hope you understand that the vast majority of us, DO support gom and love everything you do for us as foreigners, and it's a very loud minority that is being vocal, while the silent majority thinks everything you're doing is amazing.
I just wanted to thank you and GomTV for your great efforts on developing SC2 as a competitive e-sport. As an old BW fan, i'm grateful of everything you have already done for the foreigners scene. I hope the best for GomTV and hope foreigners pro-gamers will go to Korea to compete with the best.
On May 27 2011 20:16 Kazeyonoma wrote: and with 1 fail swoop, Gom shows it's maturity and awesomeness, and makes fnatic managers look like fucking assholes. gg.
you have no clue about team management and all the stuff that comes with it when you think that Xeris just wanted to flame GOM TV
Awesome news, great to know that the foreign community is heard and that Gom's interest in a global league is genuine. Really hope more players take up these opportunities as already we're seeing Koreans become a dominating force due to their amazing work ethic and superior practice environment.
Unless foreign players start to prioritize becoming better players over sticking with the 'easy money' in online tournaments I don't see the foreign scene sustaining itself in the long term. The money/sponsorship is there and the infrastructure isn't, great to know Gom is trying to help with this. <3 Gom!
oh and if i were to make one suggestion to mr. chae... give ogn/mbc broadcasting rights to produce their own sc2 broadcasts. i'm sure as long as they don't schedule their games at the same time as kespa leagues (osl/msl/pl/sfpl) and the gom leagues, it will be beneficial for everyone (more leagues, more exposure, more viewer accessibility).
I'd like to see more pressure on Blizzard from GSL and other large organisations to implement sensible crossrealm play without massive latency. Although this could already be occuring behind closed doors it seems like the major issue in international tournaments and GSL specifically.
On May 27 2011 20:18 GTR wrote: oh and if i were to make one suggestion to mr. chae... give ogn/mbc broadcasting rights to produce their own sc2 broadcasts. i'm sure as long as they don't schedule their games at the same time as kespa leagues (osl/msl/pl/sfpl) and the gom leagues, it will be beneficial for everyone (more leagues, more exposure, more viewer accessibility).
it's not GOMs fault that OGN and MBC didnt buy broadcasting rights yet
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
Aren't these the same problems a person face when they take a chance or grasp at an opportunity in another country/culture?
There are so many people moving to different countries and cities for jobs/lifestyle/family etc but those are the same challenges they have to encounter.
I'm sure we all agree that people who take chances, dare to fail whilst working hard, ultimately find success. Ain't gonna be easy though.....
Chae Jung Won nim saranghae. Excellent response and I liked the previous one a lot as well. I think many foreign fans feel the same about not a lot of foreigners moving but we'll see what happens after super tourney. There will atleast be a couple new players soon. Naniwa, Sase and some from MLG.
I hope Naniwa can play with a Korean team. I don't know what would be a good fit or if Dignitas is already on this but Startale with Torch helping out communicating or SlayerS with Cella. That would be so baller, really get a good experience then. And he is gonna become a "legend". He's like the only player that would pay his own money to get to Korea to compete. Why? Because he sees that it's an investment in himself as a player. Nobody can predict the future but they are willing to bet that in time it will pay dividents. When they have become powerhouses overseas, we will know for sure. And let's not forget about Madfrog, Grubby and probably others moving to the orient and becoming (expanding their status as) legends.
Anyway another great read, thanks a lot for bringing this to our attention Parapa, and Jung Won sunbae have a safe flight and a wonderful time in Columbus.
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: The only thing I’m upset about is that most of the reasons mentioned are something GOMTV can’t solve(I doubt anyone can),
You shouldn't be upset about that, all the intelligent people should see that some of the problems cannot be solved by GomTV, and I heavily doubt that they blame GomTV for that.
Whatever has been said, I am really impressed by the humbleness and will to cooperate that has been shown by GomTV today.
I applaud you.
Also I agree that alot of foreigners are spoiled (inControl is a huge name here, god he whines about koreans coming to MLG and whatnot on SotG), simply put; If you're the better player, you should win. Not always, cheese/allins/new tactics are always a threat and always have been... but overall the better players rise to the top and not wanting to compete against them but still wanting the prizepool is arrogant and insulting to me as a spectator and paying viewer of both NASL/GSL.
I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you
Interesting. FXO? Can't be TL or EG (or is it?). Fnatic maybe? ARGH can't wait for that announcement ^^
All these language barriers and friends and family arguments, I dont understand. You get abd oppurtunity to compete with the very best. For me those arguments would be feasible till i turned like 14 years old.
With more and more online weekly tournies starting up in korea. I dont see one single argument not to try your luck in korea. Either as a training oppurtunity or a way to really compete in the GSL.
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
Its about the fame and the glory! Winning a prestegious tournament like the GSL is a great title. And of course the nice first place and second place prize pool.
I think language, lifestyle, and leaving friends behind are small things that aren't really valid excuses. Thats what happens when you go to a new place -- it's an experience. And theyre not too difficult to work around.
Cost and time commitment on the other hand... Well, I think its really mostly about the prestige. If you're in it for just the money, GSL really isnt a good option for a foreigner.
In the end, fame and glory are intangible things. Isn't money/tournament earnings one of the few plausible ways of measuring these? GSL just isn't profitable no matter how you look at it. If the competition is tough, earnings should reflect that (but it doesn't a la 3 day MLGs).
On May 27 2011 20:22 Krehlmar wrote: Whatever has been said, I am really impressed by the humbleness and will to cooperate that has been shown by GomTV today.
I applaud you.
Also I agree that alot of foreigners are spoiled (inControl is a huge name here, god he whines about koreans coming to MLG and whatnot on SotG), simply put; If you're the better player, you should win. Not always, cheese/allins/new tactics are always a threat and always have been... but overall the better players rise to the top and not wanting to compete against them but still wanting the prizepool is arrogant and insulting to me as a spectator and paying viewer of both NASL/GSL.
On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote: Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option' - why would Liquid who was willing once to have their entire team (or close to it) in Korea do it again when they can just lease HuK and Jinro off to oGs or another team?
Well, first off... the Korean teams have to accept the players.
However, I don't think that there is any team right now that would want to send their full team, but isnt because there isn't an easier option. It's just that most people would prefer not to go.
This makes it much easier for single or very small groups (2-3) players go to Korea for GSL. I'm thinking Naniwa for example might really love this.
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
Its about the fame and the glory! Winning a prestegious tournament like the GSL is a great title. And of course the nice first place and second place prize pool.
I think language, lifestyle, and leaving friends behind are small things that aren't really valid excuses. Thats what happens when you go to a new place -- it's an experience. And theyre not too difficult to work around.
Cost and time commitment on the other hand... Well, I think its really mostly about the prestige. If you're in it for just the money, GSL really isnt a good option for a foreigner.
You got it the wrong way around.
"Lifestyle" and leaving friends behind are the really big issues. Time commitment is part of "lifestyle", see earlier posts around how different schedules are in Korean houses, or Idra's interviews months back on why he preferred to pull back from Korea.
Cost is the smaller issue. You can take on debt; if you're successful you'll pay it off, if not, you'll have to find another source of income (sc2 or not) and pay it off later. Don't get me wrong, money is important, but in the end money is just money -- as dire as your current financial situation may seem, just by traveling you won't dig yourself a hole that you won't be able to work your way out of within a decade from now. (I know what I'm talking about.)
Leaving behind your entire social circle for a serious amount of time, and for reasons that they may not value as much as you do, is not something that you can simply pay back later -- some friendships will be lost, many opportunities for new social contacts will be gone. If you don't speak the language and aren't embedded in the Korean culture, there's no way you can compensate for that during your time there. Especially given that many of the progamers are at an age which is often considered the prime time to start finding serious partners and (socially) getting settled, that is not something to shrug off easily.
On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote: Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option'. Also, do the prizes from GSTL go to the team themselves or the players? Would foreigners get equal prizemoney to the original players?
Trying to follow your favourite foreigner/team could also cause issues especially if players switch teams each time they go over to participate.
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
This. The OP doesn't actually address the specific issues that are creating this problem in the first place. His "backward universe" analogy just creates a circular argument and he mentions nothing about the language, lifestyle, the length/potential profitability of the tournament and whatnot. There is just no substance to his argument. So which concerns exactly from the foreigners do you not understand?
I was mostly replying to this:
However the problem with new format is that it makes it difficult for foreign teams to participate in team league as they will have to stay in Korea for 2 months.
I tried my best to solve this problem and although I admit this is not the perfect solution here it is.
Firstly, “Foreign players can now participate as a mercenary in Korean team”.
On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote: Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option' - why would Liquid who was willing once to have their entire team (or close to it) in Korea do it again when they can just lease HuK and Jinro off to oGs or another team?
Well, first off... the Korean teams have to accept the players.
However, I don't think that there is any team right now that would want to send their full team, but isnt because there isn't an easier option. It's just that most people would prefer not to go.
This makes it much easier for single or very small groups (2-3) players go to Korea for GSL. I'm thinking Naniwa for example might really love this.
The OP said directly that they have talked to a team/s that want to go. I just hope there's no resentment from the Koreans about this seeing foreigners getting this special treatment and what might be seen as a commitment free way of playing for a top team in a prestigious tournament.
On May 27 2011 20:18 GTR wrote: oh and if i were to make one suggestion to mr. chae... give ogn/mbc broadcasting rights to produce their own sc2 broadcasts. i'm sure as long as they don't schedule their games at the same time as kespa leagues (osl/msl/pl/sfpl) and the gom leagues, it will be beneficial for everyone (more leagues, more exposure, more viewer accessibility).
They can't do it cause some station bought exclusive rights to broadcast sc2 for a year on TV from gom.
On May 27 2011 20:16 Kazeyonoma wrote: and with 1 fail swoop, Gom shows it's maturity and awesomeness, and makes fnatic managers look like fucking assholes. gg.
you have no clue about team management and all the stuff that comes with it when you think that Xeris just wanted to flame GOM TV
what does the difficulties of team management have to do with what i said. I said the rants and raves that the team management posted by fnatic have been mostly whine posts about minor things that are downright insulting to the korean sub culture who believe in striving to be the best. they are big names for a big team, and what they say can negatively reflect upon the foreign scene, so much so that mr chae had to come here and respond to it because he himself was shocked. yes it takes a lot of effort and lot of things do have to be taken into account to manage a team, but when gom offers you a fully paid trip and housing to go play in their tournament, and you claim you'll turn it down because of these trivial lifestyle problems, it just makes you sound like a whiner. Gom has been nothing but supportive and responsive in a professional manner, i can't say the same for foreigners responses (not all, like i said, the loud minority).
If you have legal obligations to contracts, or you can't go because you're married, that's fine, say that's why, and move on, but don't try to put it on GOM and blame GOM for their efforts as not far reaching enough. What do you want them to do? pay for your wife and kids to come over here too? build you a faster overseas internet connection so you can play in online tournaments as well?
Kind of ridiculous to ask a person living outside korea to come to the gom house for an entire month with only $1500 on the line --- If they win. You can make that here in Canada working at Mcdonalds. In addition to dedicating an entire month to a tournament that has very steep competition they ave to put up with living conditions that are not at all like the ones seen in foreign countries. The experience is no doubt an amazing one, and the practice would be second to none, but there is alot going on in the foreigner scene that is more comfortable for foreign players, and is more lucrative. For the most part, Koreans stayed in Korea, and foreigners stuck to the foreigner scene. Sure there were exceptions but I dont think this is something that will change overnight, and you cannot expect it too with the foreigner scene getting massive attention.
If you win MLG you now get a spot in Code S, but Koreans who enter MLG get directly seeded into the championship bracket, and earn points that will keep them in the championship bracket. This immediately makes the never leave the championship bracket without having to ever earn their way there. They dont have to play 15 sets during the open bracket vs countless styles of all-ins and they are never tested vs worse players. I dont feel this is fair.
I can see how going to play in Code A is a great opportunity, but for the top foreign players the only logical reason to go would be for better practice, in the hope of better results down the line due to their experience and training in Korea.
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
Just curious, what, exactly, do you expect GOM to do about the language/culture barrier, and leaving friends behind? The whole of Korea must start speaking English so that western teams can compete in GSL, obviously. And fly every friend and family member of every competitor to the GSL as well.
Also:
On May 27 2011 20:16 Kazeyonoma wrote: and with 1 fail swoop, Gom shows it's maturity and awesomeness, and makes fnatic managers look like fucking assholes. gg.
It always gives me a little bit of amusement when people mess up cliches, but "one fail swoop" is so ironic it's downright awesome.
On May 27 2011 20:18 GTR wrote: oh and if i were to make one suggestion to mr. chae... give ogn/mbc broadcasting rights to produce their own sc2 broadcasts. i'm sure as long as they don't schedule their games at the same time as kespa leagues (osl/msl/pl/sfpl) and the gom leagues, it will be beneficial for everyone (more leagues, more exposure, more viewer accessibility).
They can't do it cause some station bought exclusive rights to broadcast sc2 for a year on TV from gom.
anibox only have the exclusive rights to broadcast the gsl. anything else is free reign.
GSL is the best tournament on earth.Some people will always complain so don't pay attention to them. Just one thing. do not do ANY INVITATIONS ! Gom invited a bunch of foreigners for the GSL World Championship. That was BAD. We need online qualifiers / continent offline qualifiers/ whatever.
I really like GOMs efforts to try and incorporate foreigners into the Korean scene.
The one thing that bothers me a bit is that I feel they still kinda expect the scene to develop faster than it really is. I mena, SC2 is growing fast, but not THAT fast. Top SC2 players arent rock stars or highly profiled sportmen like, say, top tennis players which can travel everywhere they want. The SC2 players still dont have more than a (from what I've understood) moderate/low salary from their team, so when going around the world they're dependant on their team, which in turn is dependant on their sponsors. And as much money as being pumped into esports through sponsors, it's still not really enough to send teams all around the globe to compete. The relation between travel+housing costs vs sponsor fundings+price money gains is still largely "favoring" the costs.
That said, I think its amazing what GOM is trying to do, and all their effeorts are great for us foreigners. But I kinda think they shouldnt expect foreigners to come flying over to Korea at every chance like they seem to do. Not only does than mean they leave behind friends/family/possibly better living conditions (and Im sure there are plenty of foreigners who would be willing to do this to live their dream, like OP says Nestea or MVP would do), but its also a very high chance it wont be profitable for them.
Give it some time, it will surely happen as things evolve, but dont expect it to happen over night.
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
Just curious, what, exactly, do you expect GOM to do about the language/culture barrier, and leaving friends behind? The whole of Korea must start speaking English so that western teams can compete in GSL, obviously. And fly every friend and family member of every competitor to the GSL as well.
On May 27 2011 20:16 Kazeyonoma wrote: and with 1 fail swoop, Gom shows it's maturity and awesomeness, and makes fnatic managers look like fucking assholes. gg.
It always gives me a little bit of amusement when people mess up cliches, but "one fail swoop" is so ironic it's downright awesome.
lol whoops, was pretty heated in my response. corrected! ;P
On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote: Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option'. Also, do the prizes from GSTL go to the team themselves or the players? Would foreigners get equal prizemoney to the original players?
Trying to follow your favourite foreigner/team could also cause issues especially if players switch teams each time they go over to participate.
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
This. The OP doesn't actually address the specific issues that are creating this problem in the first place. His "backward universe" analogy just creates a circular argument and he mentions nothing about the language, lifestyle, the length/potential profitability of the tournament and whatnot. There is just no substance to his argument. So which concerns exactly from the foreigners do you not understand?
However the problem with new format is that it makes it difficult for foreign teams to participate in team league as they will have to stay in Korea for 2 months.
I tried my best to solve this problem and although I admit this is not the perfect solution here it is.
Firstly, “Foreign players can now participate as a mercenary in Korean team”.
On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote: Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option' - why would Liquid who was willing once to have their entire team (or close to it) in Korea do it again when they can just lease HuK and Jinro off to oGs or another team?
Well, first off... the Korean teams have to accept the players.
However, I don't think that there is any team right now that would want to send their full team, but isnt because there isn't an easier option. It's just that most people would prefer not to go.
This makes it much easier for single or very small groups (2-3) players go to Korea for GSL. I'm thinking Naniwa for example might really love this.
The OP said directly that they have talked to a team/s that want to go. I just hope there's no resentment from the Koreans about this seeing foreigners getting this special treatment and what might be seen as a commitment free way of playing for a top team in a prestigious tournament.
On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote: It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
On May 27 2011 20:08 dhcustom wrote: This. The OP doesn't actually address the specific issues that are creating this problem in the first place. His "backward universe" analogy just creates a circular argument and he mentions nothing about the language, lifestyle, the length/potential profitability of the tournament and whatnot. There is just no substance to his argument. So which concerns exactly from the foreigners do you not understand?
Where you guys reading objectively or did you have blinders on? He said "most of the reasons mentioned are something GOMTV can’t solve(I doubt anyone can)". I agree, what can GOM reasonably do about it? And he's right that the only solution is that "Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort."
If you win MLG you now get a spot in Code S, but Koreans who enter MLG get directly seeded into the championship bracket, and earn points that will keep them in the championship bracket. This immediately makes the never leave the championship bracket without having to ever earn their way there. They dont have to play 15 sets during the open bracket vs countless styles of all-ins and they are never tested vs worse players. I dont feel this is fair.
I can see how going to play in Code A is a great opportunity, but for the top foreign players the only logical reason to go would be for better practice, in the hope of better results down the line due to their experience and training in Korea.
They have to go through open bracket the next time they attend MLG, unless they all place 1,2,3,4. Which is very unlikely.
On May 27 2011 20:24 Phayze wrote: Kind of ridiculous to ask a person living outside korea to come to the gom house for an entire month with only $1500 on the line --- If they win. You can make that here in Canada working at Mcdonalds. In addition to dedicating an entire month to a tournament that has very steep competition they ave to put up with living conditions that are not at all like the ones seen in foreign countries. The experience is no doubt an amazing one, and the practice would be second to none, but there is alot going on in the foreigner scene that is more comfortable for foreign players, and is more lucrative. For the most part, Koreans stayed in Korea, and foreigners stuck to the foreigner scene. Sure there were exceptions but I dont think this is something that will change overnight, and you cannot expect it too with the foreigner scene getting massive attention.
1,5k and a seed into Code S (winner doesn't need to go through the up-and-down matches).
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
Just curious, what, exactly, do you expect GOM to do about the language/culture barrier, and leaving friends behind? The whole of Korea must start speaking English so that western teams can compete in GSL, obviously. And fly every friend and family member of every competitor to the GSL as well.
On May 27 2011 20:16 Kazeyonoma wrote: and with 1 fail swoop, Gom shows it's maturity and awesomeness, and makes fnatic managers look like fucking assholes. gg.
It always gives me a little bit of amusement when people mess up cliches, but "one fail swoop" is so ironic it's downright awesome.
I don't really suggest they try to fix that, it was just listed there as one of the issues that has been raised. Just because you can't think of a way to alleviate it right away doesn't mean you should stop trying though
For a start, I imagine a lot of the reason the language and lifestyle change is a problem is because of the living conditions in Korean houses and because players rarely have the time or English fluency to chat. Also it doesn't seem there's much effective communication with coaches or staff either. Note that language is a problem not only when ordering your dinner but in the practice room - it limits how effective your practice can be when the coach doesn't speak your own language very well.
Perhaps there should be more dedicated translators to help the players get involved, or take the players as a group off to do touristy things so they don't feel so isolated.
On May 27 2011 20:18 GTR wrote: oh and if i were to make one suggestion to mr. chae... give ogn/mbc broadcasting rights to produce their own sc2 broadcasts. i'm sure as long as they don't schedule their games at the same time as kespa leagues (osl/msl/pl/sfpl) and the gom leagues, it will be beneficial for everyone (more leagues, more exposure, more viewer accessibility).
Even small/amateur tournaments will help a ton, injecting money to make progaming more viable, and attract new followers in Korea to boost the scene through their broadcasts.
If you win MLG you now get a spot in Code S, but Koreans who enter MLG get directly seeded into the championship bracket, and earn points that will keep them in the championship bracket. This immediately makes the never leave the championship bracket without having to ever earn their way there. They dont have to play 15 sets during the open bracket vs countless styles of all-ins and they are never tested vs worse players. I dont feel this is fair.
I can see how going to play in Code A is a great opportunity, but for the top foreign players the only logical reason to go would be for better practice, in the hope of better results down the line due to their experience and training in Korea.
They have to go through open bracket the next time they attend MLG, unless they all place 1,2,3,4. Which is very unlikely.
the players have to pay their own way to come back to the states as well (or their teams/sponsors, same situation as foreign teams, first time is covered, but subsequent times are not).
Gom has done enough to give foreigners opportunities. I feel that it is the foreigners' fault for not using the opportunities well. Any more leeway for the foreigners and I would feel that it will be unfair for the Koreans. (I even feel direct placement into Code S is a bit over the line, but meh, not complaining)
Just as Mr.Chae said, players like Nestea, MVP, MC, etc would go to the states/europe had the situation of the SC scene be reversed. So to me, all these excuses coming from the foreign teams are just excuses to cover up the lack of dedication, mentality and skills from their players.
edit* And I hope Mr. Chae understands, posts like the ones from Fnatic's Xeris do not represent what a majority of foreigners feel about Gom/Korea. In fact, a lot of us are pretty much in agreement with Mr. Chae even before he posted this.
On May 27 2011 20:16 Kazeyonoma wrote: and with 1 fail swoop, Gom shows it's maturity and awesomeness, and makes fnatic managers look like fucking assholes. gg.
you have no clue about team management and all the stuff that comes with it when you think that Xeris just wanted to flame GOM TV
what does the difficulties of team management have to do with what i said. I said the rants and raves that the team management posted by fnatic have been mostly whine posts about minor things that are downright insulting to the korean sub culture who believe in striving to be the best. they are big names for a big team, and what they say can negatively reflect upon the foreign scene, so much so that mr chae had to come here and respond to it because he himself was shocked. yes it takes a lot of effort and lot of things do have to be taken into account to manage a team, but when gom offers you a fully paid trip and housing to go play in their tournament, and you claim you'll turn it down because of these trivial lifestyle problems, it just makes you sound like a whiner. Gom has been nothing but supportive and responsive in a professional manner, i can't say the same for foreigners responses (not all, like i said, the loud minority).
If you have legal obligations to contracts, or you can't go because you're married, that's fine, say that's why, and move on, but don't try to put it on GOM and blame GOM for their efforts as not far reaching enough. What do you want them to do? pay for your wife and kids to come over here too? build you a faster overseas internet connection so you can play in online tournaments as well?
I'm not positive what threads or comments you are talking about. I'm assuming its the thread Xeris posted? That wasn't a big whine/rant post. I cant remember the thread fully but the main point I got out of it was how the logistics of sending your team to Korea is very difficult. When you started ranting about insulting the Korean sub culture you completely lost me.
On May 27 2011 20:24 Phayze wrote: Kind of ridiculous to ask a person living outside korea to come to a gom house for an entire month with only $1500 on the line --- If they win. You can make that here in Canada working at Mcdonalds. In addition to dedicating an entire month tournament that is quite competetive they have to put up with living conditions that are not at all like the ones seen in foreign countries. The experience is no doubt an amazing one, and the practice would be second to none, but there is alot going on in the foreigner scene that is more comfortable for foreign players, and is more lucrative. For the most part, Koreans stayed in Korea, and foreigners stuck to the foreigner scene. Sure there were exceptions but I dont think this is something that will change overnight, and you cannot expect it too with the foreigner scene getting massive attention.
If you win MLG you now get a spot in Code S, but Koreans who enter MLG get directly seeded into the championship bracket, and earn points that will keep them in the championship bracket. This immediately makes the never leave the championship bracket without having to ever earn their way there. They dont have to play 15 sets during the open bracket vs countless styles of all-ins and they are never tested vs worse players. I dont feel this is fair.
I can see how going to play in Code A is a great opportunity, but for the top foreign players the only logical reason to go would be for better practice, in the hope of better results down the line due to their experience and training in Korea.
OK I'm just gonna do the following to rebuttle an argument I see come up frequently. You say they will never leave the championship bracket. Why do you say that? Are they better players? Why are they better players? If they have been able to become good players that will never leave championship brackets vs foreigners once they get there. Then why wouldn't a foreign want to become a player that will never leave championship brackets once they get there? You see where I'm going with this? All the living discomfort or temporary set backs don't weight up in time once you have become once of those beast. Once you are the situation totally changes.
It's almost like saying you would rather go and work and live in an appartment for the rest of your live, then bunk in a noisy dorm with shitty foods little to no privacy and jocks that push you around but once you got your degree you can buy your own house and a car and all those things. I'm not trying to downgrade anything with this, it's just that I see this as an almost perfect analogy. And it's an incredibly important part because it can define the rest of your live.
On May 27 2011 20:23 bmn wrote:Leaving behind your entire social circle for a serious amount of time, and for reasons that they may not value as much as you do, is not something that you can simply pay back later -- some friendships will be lost, many opportunities for new social contacts will be gone. If you don't speak the language and aren't embedded in the Korean culture, there's no way you can compensate for that during your time there. Especially given that many of the progamers are at an age which is often considered the prime time to start finding serious partners and (socially) getting settled, that is not something to shrug off easily.
The "social circle" of a legitimate progamer consists of countless hours interacting with your friends or teammates on-line. These friendships can easily be maintained.. on-line. And if a month is a serious amount of time, an amount of time that will make you actually lose friendships my mind is completely blown.
Men in the military go over seas for years at a time with a wife and children at home.. I could spend 6 months in Korea and my friends would be cheering for me at 5 in the morning, nevermind if I only spent 1 month.
From my point of view, there are quite a few foreign players that can compete on par with koreans best but I feel there is one main reason why they don't.
Risk/Reward
From what i can tell there is very few SC2 tournaments in Korea. Moving to a different country for a month for one tournament is a big investment, if not for the money then for personal stress.
If a EU/NA player can play in 5 online tournaments a week and win between 5th and 1st place consistantly why would they give that up? Not to mention short but highly rewarding LAN tournaments like Dreamhack or MLG.
The risk for a consistantly good player to move out for a month to Korea is time, money (if not for the expenses that may/may not be covered by GOM then by the amount lost in estimated tournament winnings) and of course pride. I feel a pro-player who might lose in their opening round of mlg or dreamhack will be very disappointed but not soul-defeating, if that was to happen to them with the GSL it could be devastating for a player.
Im not saying it shouldn't be so, but there is a lot of pressure and add to the fact that there are more options in NA/EU, its a level of pressure that can be circumvented whislt still earning and also solidifying a player's reputation.This is something i feel that has already occured for at least one very talented player.
The Solution
SC2 needs to spread more in Korea. This is something that is out of GOM's control unless tournaments become ridiculously short to the point where a player to fly out on the Friday and come back with 3rd place on the Monday.
If there were more tournaments in Korea then a player who will spend a month there wont feel like they are putting all their eggs into one basket.
From the recent news of Kespa and Blizzard making "peace" there might be another major high level SC2 tournament to compete in. But right now, from what i am aware of, there is only one.
So for right now, i feel that time will solve this problem. The game is hardly a year old (retail), the Korean vs The world tournament was a huge success, i would like to see more of those. But right now there isnt much other than the GSL from what i can tell.
This again is my personal view based on what different players have said/not said. I may be totally wrong and i apologize if i may have offended anyone.
Thank you for the effort and time you spent writing this to post here. I don't think I'm alone in my appreciation.
Think of it this way. Let’s assume that there is backward universe; There is LAN tournament with equivalent size and prize pool as GSL in USA and tournaments in Korea are mostly online. If MVP, MC, Nestea and MKP were to be invited to States to participate in LAN tournament for a month(and they will be provided a place to sleep and practice like GOMTV is providing now), would they decide to go to US? I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win.
I think a major reason why players are not going to korea right now is that quite simply, there is too much competition. I'm sure MVP, MC, etc. want to compete in as many tournaments as possible -- how many tournaments in the world would they not be favored to win, or at least place high? The same is not true of the vast majority of foreigners, and the true standouts in the foreign community don't need the GSL. From an economic standpoint, these players can earn (almost) as much money, respect, and fame by playing in the wide variety of tournaments outside of korea. The fields are simply less competitive.
So while I'm excited to see your initiative to support foreigners coming to korea, and while I find it admirable that you do not want SC2 to be just a Korean e-sport like Brood War was -- I would assert that for SC2 to be truly global, foreigners need to develop their own competitive scenes, not just move to korea and participate in the Korean leagues. Not only is it not detrimental for this to happen, it is NECESSARY for it to not be a repeat of broodwar's korean dominated scene.
I, too, have a dream:
With the establishment of foreign pro-houses all over the world, prestigious LAN events like MLG and Dreamhack will become more and more competitive. The average skill level of these tournaments will rise until the competition is as stiff as it is in Korea. I have a dream that one day the world will not be divided into "foreigner" and "korean", but by the level of their gosu. I have a dream where even the word "foreigner" brings stoic memories of a more shameful time, when the world was segregated into "Korea" and "everything else". Yes, I have a dream that players from countries all over the world will be able to game together on equal footing.
On May 27 2011 20:24 Phayze wrote: Kind of ridiculous to ask a person living outside korea to come to a gom house for an entire month with only $1500 on the line --- If they win. You can make that here in Canada working at Mcdonalds. In addition to dedicating an entire month tournament that is quite competetive they have to put up with living conditions that are not at all like the ones seen in foreign countries. The experience is no doubt an amazing one, and the practice would be second to none, but there is alot going on in the foreigner scene that is more comfortable for foreign players, and is more lucrative. For the most part, Koreans stayed in Korea, and foreigners stuck to the foreigner scene. Sure there were exceptions but I dont think this is something that will change overnight, and you cannot expect it too with the foreigner scene getting massive attention.
If you win MLG you now get a spot in Code S, but Koreans who enter MLG get directly seeded into the championship bracket, and earn points that will keep them in the championship bracket. This immediately makes the never leave the championship bracket without having to ever earn their way there. They dont have to play 15 sets during the open bracket vs countless styles of all-ins and they are never tested vs worse players. I dont feel this is fair.
You honestly think that we should put Bomber/MMA/Losira up against people like destiny or response? Cmon, give me a break, I would have as much a chance at winning that match. Why would you want to subject them to a retarded amount of all-ins anyway? Huk and naniwa showed that a real pro can easily make it out of the open bracket effortlessly, and I'd say all three koreans are better than those two. It's a silly argument.
And ya, 1500 on the line.... except if you only make Ro8 and get through up/down matches, in which case you will now be making that amount EVERY SINGLE MONTH without even having to win a match, and playing for 50K. You are being overly selective of facts you mention when discussing the pros and cons.
Plus, sure leaving your family and friends suck, but it's your job man. It's like a salesman complaining he'll never be home and has to travel everywhere. That's just how it goes. Fact of the matter remains that I GUARANTEE YOU that every single foreigner player would instantly go to korea if they were good enough to win Code S, the biggest tournament in the world with the biggest prize pool. All the top earners in SC2 are koreans that play in the GSL, and basically every other reason is just an excuse trying to dodge this fact. There is easier money to be made in the west, you can't blame players for going for it when they're not good enough to compete in korea, but it's annoying when they try to make other excuses for it
Very nice response, gomtv is doing fantastic work for e-sports and you can see they're really doing everything in their power to make Korea viable for us foreigners. Can't wait to see Naniwa in Korea, hopefully a foreigner wins MLG and takes the code S spot too.
On May 27 2011 20:33 phrenzy wrote: SC2 needs to spread more in Korea. This is something that is out of GOM's control unless tournaments become ridiculously short to the point where a player to fly out on the Friday and come back with 3rd place on the Monday.
I remember Nony having said that he personally preferred short LAN events to league events.
On May 27 2011 20:16 Kazeyonoma wrote: and with 1 fail swoop, Gom shows it's maturity and awesomeness, and makes fnatic managers look like fucking assholes. gg.
you have no clue about team management and all the stuff that comes with it when you think that Xeris just wanted to flame GOM TV
what does the difficulties of team management have to do with what i said. I said the rants and raves that the team management posted by fnatic have been mostly whine posts about minor things that are downright insulting to the korean sub culture who believe in striving to be the best. they are big names for a big team, and what they say can negatively reflect upon the foreign scene, so much so that mr chae had to come here and respond to it because he himself was shocked. yes it takes a lot of effort and lot of things do have to be taken into account to manage a team, but when gom offers you a fully paid trip and housing to go play in their tournament, and you claim you'll turn it down because of these trivial lifestyle problems, it just makes you sound like a whiner. Gom has been nothing but supportive and responsive in a professional manner, i can't say the same for foreigners responses (not all, like i said, the loud minority).
If you have legal obligations to contracts, or you can't go because you're married, that's fine, say that's why, and move on, but don't try to put it on GOM and blame GOM for their efforts as not far reaching enough. What do you want them to do? pay for your wife and kids to come over here too? build you a faster overseas internet connection so you can play in online tournaments as well?
I'm not positive what threads or comments you are talking about. I'm assuming its the thread Xeris posted? That wasn't a big whine/rant post. I cant remember the thread fully but the main point I got out of it was how the logistics of sending your team to Korea is very difficult. When you started ranting about insulting the Korean sub culture you completely lost me.
the fact that xeris made a large complaint about the cost of sending players to korea would be too great, yet cost of living is covered already because of the gom house. he also goes on to talk about the mlg gsl exchange, and complains about airfare costs when it's already been announced that the costs will be covered for qualifying players, yet he refuses to update his post, and users are reading his OP, getting the wrong impressions about Gom, the GSL, and the foreign scene overall and you see even 29 pages in, users reply to just his post and say "wow, so true", when they're obviously reading a misinformed post. THAT is not professional.
If you win MLG you now get a spot in Code S, but Koreans who enter MLG get directly seeded into the championship bracket, and earn points that will keep them in the championship bracket. This immediately makes the never leave the championship bracket without having to ever earn their way there. They dont have to play 15 sets during the open bracket vs countless styles of all-ins and they are never tested vs worse players. I dont feel this is fair.
I can see how going to play in Code A is a great opportunity, but for the top foreign players the only logical reason to go would be for better practice, in the hope of better results down the line due to their experience and training in Korea.
They have to go through open bracket the next time they attend MLG, unless they all place 1,2,3,4. Which is very unlikely.
the players have to pay their own way to come back to the states as well (or their teams/sponsors, same situation as foreign teams, first time is covered, but subsequent times are not).
Foreign players have to pay their own way back home? I'm pretty sure that's covered.
On May 27 2011 20:22 Krehlmar wrote: Whatever has been said, I am really impressed by the humbleness and will to cooperate that has been shown by GomTV today.
I applaud you.
Also I agree that alot of foreigners are spoiled (inControl is a huge name here, god he whines about koreans coming to MLG and whatnot on SotG), simply put; If you're the better player, you should win. Not always, cheese/allins/new tactics are always a threat and always have been... but overall the better players rise to the top and not wanting to compete against them but still wanting the prizepool is arrogant and insulting to me as a spectator and paying viewer of both NASL/GSL.
What are you talking about?
The fact that one of the biggest reasons that no foreigner wants to go to korea is because most of them are subpar to even Code A koreans. Yet if you have read/listened to alot of feedback from pro's alot of them sound less than eager or downright negative towards koreans gaining spots in different competitions. Incontrol said "well sure I want to beat a guy like MC in the finals I just dont want 8 koreans in my bracket and having this and that much harder to blablabla" point is if not a person of MC's skill then who? Some godamn scrub? What the fuck are we suppouse to pay tournaments for if not to supply the absolute BEST players, and what fucking pro-gamer is "pro" if he can't compete against the very best or at the very least have confidence he wont get smashed? Yeah ofcourse nobody wants to meet a really hard opponent in every matchup... but if you do not practice well enough to BE that hard opponent, you do not deserve to win.
Its difficult. I think in the future the western sc2 scene will grow even more and there will be more huge tournaments in europe and the USA. EU/USA has so much more potential of growth, than Korea. If the SC2 hype goes on in the Western World, it's more likely that Koreans move to Europe/USA than more foreigners move to Korea. At the End it's all about the money, if there are 100.000$ Tournaments in the USA and 75.000€ Tournaments in Europe (something like GSL) many Koreans will move to Europe/USA.
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: Hello Teamliquid Firstly, “Foreign players can now participate as a mercenary in Korean team”. You may be able to see Jinro or Huk as member of oGs-TL in team league.
Holy ****, that is incredible news. Also, I hope someone tells them that the whiny, unreasonable tone of Fnatic does NOT represent the majority of the community, as shown by the vastly negative response to their posts.
I think the main reasons for players not willing to go over might have been a bit misunderstood, but then again I have not read every single thread about this.
I also raise an eyebrow whenever somebody brings up leaving friends and famaily behind, because this was never an issue for me (and I worked in some different placed and cultures for more than 1-2 months), but that's anyones personal opinion of course and it might be more difficult for other people. I always took it as a great personal experience.
The other reasons which have been brought up against going there, especially to Code A, are very understandable in my opinion.
I'm personally very excited especially about the fact that GSTL teams can use foreigners. I'm not sure if this will have an effect on people actually deciding to go to Korea, but it would certainly improve the practice environment for anyone who does, which was one of the things some pros have pointed out (as in it doesn't necessarily help you that much to just go over and then play on the Korean ladder obviously). It'd be really great to see some foreigners on the GSTL.
Also very excited for whatever is announced next. Fnatic or Dignitas taking part in GSTL maybe?
On May 27 2011 20:14 Feijichang wrote: The MLG-GSL exchange is absolutely incredible.. I've yet to see a legitimate foreign pro speak as to why they would decline the offer that wasn't bound by contracts and other obligations that were making them money(Idra, Incontrol).
Foreign players used to never play for the money, and that argument is sickening, doubly so when considering the players making it aren't winning much money in the foreign scene either (Fnatic, and seeing Xeris is beginning to become synonymous with Don't Read).
True competitors will be drawn to the GSL, not for the money, but to be the best. Naniwa said it best on a podcast recently that he will be going to the GSL to prove he is a world-class player.
Also... a free trip to Korea is freaking amazing and seems to be overlooked quite often.
Homesickness and not being intrigued by competing in a foreign country are the weakest thing I've ever heard, and obviously those people are not "professional" gamers. It's a month...
I agree, homesickness is a pretty weak excuse for a single month. People travel for business all the time, people travel on holidays all the time, I don't see how gsl is so different.
Even if you don't do well well its still an excellent experience in my books. Given the opportunity I'd go to korea to play even if I didn't think I stood a chance and just view it as a holiday.
Well I think you made a pretty clear point - Korean players have a much higher chance of success over here then foreigners do over there. There's not a great chance that most foreigners would be able to get past their first round or two in Code A, while Koreans could trounce most foreigners, or at least have a good chance of success.
If you win MLG you now get a spot in Code S, but Koreans who enter MLG get directly seeded into the championship bracket, and earn points that will keep them in the championship bracket. This immediately makes the never leave the championship bracket without having to ever earn their way there. They dont have to play 15 sets during the open bracket vs countless styles of all-ins and they are never tested vs worse players. I dont feel this is fair.
I can see how going to play in Code A is a great opportunity, but for the top foreign players the only logical reason to go would be for better practice, in the hope of better results down the line due to their experience and training in Korea.
They have to go through open bracket the next time they attend MLG, unless they all place 1,2,3,4. Which is very unlikely.
the players have to pay their own way to come back to the states as well (or their teams/sponsors, same situation as foreign teams, first time is covered, but subsequent times are not).
Foreign players have to pay their own way back home? I'm pretty sure that's covered.
not back home, for subsequent tournaments. so say bomber qualifies into MLG anaheim based on his results in MLG columbus, the exchange system isn't going to pay for him to come back to anaheim a 2nd time, if he wants to come he has to come on his own (or his team/sponsors efforts). which is something foreigners who have been against the exchange have complained about the koreans just dominating all of the MLG tournaments as this exchange system continues, but the koreans face the same costs as the foreign teams do when discussing "sending players to koreas is not profittable"
this solution honestly isn't perfect, but it gives more hope that foreigners might be able to rise up to the level. Even if there are claims that western esports is on the rise, what with krns falling in TSL and other tournies, the fact of the matter is that no player out there would have a candle of a chance of winning GSL. Hopefully that will change in the future.
On May 27 2011 20:22 Krehlmar wrote: Whatever has been said, I am really impressed by the humbleness and will to cooperate that has been shown by GomTV today.
I applaud you.
Also I agree that alot of foreigners are spoiled (inControl is a huge name here, god he whines about koreans coming to MLG and whatnot on SotG), simply put; If you're the better player, you should win. Not always, cheese/allins/new tactics are always a threat and always have been... but overall the better players rise to the top and not wanting to compete against them but still wanting the prizepool is arrogant and insulting to me as a spectator and paying viewer of both NASL/GSL.
What are you talking about?
The fact that one of the biggest reasons that no foreigner wants to go to korea is because most of them are subpar to even Code A koreans. Yet if you have read/listened to alot of feedback from pro's alot of them sound less than eager or downright negative towards koreans gaining spots in different competitions. Incontrol said "well sure I want to beat a guy like MC in the finals I just dont want 8 koreans in my bracket and having this and that much harder to blablabla" point is if not a person of MC's skill then who? Some godamn scrub? What the fuck are we suppouse to pay tournaments for if not to supply the absolute BEST players, and what fucking pro-gamer is "pro" if he can't compete against the very best or at the very least have confidence he wont get smashed? Yeah ofcourse nobody wants to meet a really hard opponent in every matchup... but if you do not practice well enough to BE that hard opponent, you do not deserve to win.
Oh oh oh oh, That is a very interesting point I would like to expand on. Remember watching when they pick their opponents? Like for the Code S seeding stuff like that. You actually had "lesser" player pick and want to play a champion in the first round because they want to beat him, they want to show their worth, they don't want to get the ro8 and get knocked out, they want to get the trophy so it doesn't matter when, how or who you knock out along the way. That connects in huge with what you put down as the more general foreigner way of looking it, and how that differs to many koreans.
Also I already said it in a previous post here but simply put, how can you say they are better players and then not want to go there and become one of those better players?
Let's face it, it's purely economic: Aslong as western players can keep getting more money for performing less instead of going to korea and competing they will.
On May 27 2011 20:44 Krehlmar wrote: Let's face it, it's purely economic: Aslong as western players can keep getting more money for performing less instead of going to korea and competing they will.
I really dislike this culture/language reasons. I had no problem in Korea, not knowing a word of Korean. And with a lot of foreigners and GOMs setup (house, translators etc) that shouldn't really be relevant.
Nice to see GOM not being discouraged and keep trying to work for non-Koreans. I still think the length of the tournaments is probably the biggest hurdle for teams/players, but glgl.
Don't know if Blizzard is somewhat behind of this 'Opening Korea SCII to the world' attitude, but I admit, I'm impressed with the effort that Gom is making to get as many foreigners as possible into their leagues.
GomTV, you guys are doing an awesome job. Keep going forward and ignore the retarded threads that sometimes pop up.
You guys are the best choice to watch Starcraft II. And it won't change soon. Don't cater to the Western gamers but keep doing what you do. People should be honored to play in the GSL.
EDIT: Is it possible that you guys allow a "world team"? If there is a point in time that 8 western players are in Korea for 2 months. Can they make a team of their own?
The biggest issue with GSL is the need for GSL participating foreigners to stop paticipating in European and American tournaments.
This can be solved by allowing competent foreigners to play their Code A matches online from their home country. Once a player "proves" himself in Code A, they will be much more willing to travel to Korea to paticipate in Code S.
On May 27 2011 20:44 Krehlmar wrote: Let's face it, it's purely economic: Aslong as western players can keep getting more money for performing less instead of going to korea and competing they will.
What's worse is that this sense of mindset won't allow esports outside of korea to be sustainable. Being paid fulltime salaries and sponsored by companies is more consistent than winning the prize money of the tournaments.
If you win MLG you now get a spot in Code S, but Koreans who enter MLG get directly seeded into the championship bracket, and earn points that will keep them in the championship bracket. This immediately makes the never leave the championship bracket without having to ever earn their way there. They dont have to play 15 sets during the open bracket vs countless styles of all-ins and they are never tested vs worse players. I dont feel this is fair.
I can see how going to play in Code A is a great opportunity, but for the top foreign players the only logical reason to go would be for better practice, in the hope of better results down the line due to their experience and training in Korea.
They have to go through open bracket the next time they attend MLG, unless they all place 1,2,3,4. Which is very unlikely.
Based on past results from LAN tournaments, it is actually pretty likely that will happen. The main reason foreigners don't want to go to Korea is because they aren't on the same skill level and are unlikely to get/stay in Code S where the money is, while Koreans are willing to go to foreign events because they know they are likely to destroy and take the top prizes.
On May 27 2011 20:33 phrenzy wrote: From my point of view, there are quite a few foreign players that can compete on par with koreans best but I feel there is one main reason why they don't.
Risk/Reward If a EU/NA player can play in 5 online tournaments a week and win between 5th and 1st place consistantly why would they give that up? Not to mention short but highly rewarding LAN tournaments like Dreamhack or MLG.
Because doing well in GSL will earn them 2-5 times more than winning all those tournaments combined. As well as better level of competition, which is a big part of these players becoming pro gamers as well.
The Solution
SC2 needs to spread more in Korea. This is something that is out of GOM's control unless tournaments become ridiculously short to the point where a player to fly out on the Friday and come back with 3rd place on the Monday.
If there were more tournaments in Korea then a player who will spend a month there wont feel like they are putting all their eggs into one basket.
From the recent news of Kespa and Blizzard making "peace" there might be another major high level SC2 tournament to compete in. But right now, from what i am aware of, there is only one.
So for right now, i feel that time will solve this problem. The game is hardly a year old (retail), the Korean vs The world tournament was a huge success, i would like to see more of those. But right now there isnt much other than the GSL from what i can tell.
This again is my personal view based on what different players have said/not said. I may be totally wrong and i apologize if i may have offended anyone.
I see this argument brought up a lot, but my question for this is - If these other tournaments are worthy of foreigners to join, what makes you think top Koreans players won't join as well? (and hence reducing the likely hood of these foreigners from winning to the same as GSL) - If the foriegners aren't confident to even get past code A to get into code S, what makes you think they will win against a combination of code A, code S, and amazing unknowns in code B (like DRG)?
This ultimately still comes down to foreigners having to get better and change their mentality/mindsets
Such a mature response, thanks for letting the TL community know that you guys are doing your best to avoid a situation where "SC2 [is] just a korean e-sports thing like Brood War". It is so positive to know and feel that there is consensus that a combined effort is needed for the global e-sports scene to flourish.
u sir, are trying too much for those deserving too little.
lets put aside few exceptions to the rule, foreigners are plain and simple scared, of the competition in Korea and also that their fans will realise that they have their tail between their legs. its so much easier to compete against 10 to 20 really good players and roflstomp everyone else, rather than face almost any guy that qualifies for GSL and just straight up lose.
lets face it people, Korea has done more than it should've had to make foreigners come. they haven't. i can understand someone having personal reasons, but most of europes and north american players are just declining "cuz money better here brah", which is just an excuse. if Jinro ever comes back, he will roll you guys so hard (making money in the process) that every day in Korea will be worth its weight in gold.
dont belive me? just look at Idras stream, its like he's fighting guys from bronze leagues sometimes :/
The exchange program with MLG was a great start, if the Korean pro teams are willing to open their doors to foreign pros, it alleviates a lot (not all obviously) of the problems people who can afford it face.
I hope this all works out, and the tone of this post came across much better than the previous one. Kudos.
I am very very pleased with how GOMTV is taking the initiative to spread esports and create opportunities for foreign players. I think if they can find a way to provide earlier information to the teams and players that we will most definitely be seeing more foreigners in the GSL/GSTL, especially with all the money that is now being poured into the SC2 sponsorships. I know this is not my place to give advice because I am in no way in the situation or have all the information teams do, but I think if their players are good enough that they should take a risk and give it a whirl in Korea.
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: Hello Teamliquid
My name is Chae Jung Won and I’m both GSL Code S commentator and manager of GSL operation team.
I’ve been reading the recent threads which have been posted at teamliquid.net. Lot of foreign players have listed the reasons for why it’s difficult for them to come to Korea and participate in GSL. While I understand some of these, I do not understand others.
First of all I want make it clear that the purpose of this thread is not to rebut the posts I mentioned above. The decision whether to make sacrifices to attend a tournament which is extremely competitive or not is completely up to one’s own and I respect that. The only thing I’m upset about is that most of the reasons mentioned are something GOMTV can’t solve(I doubt anyone can), and as for the problems that can be solved, GOMTV is doing its best to find solution. It’s just that this is easier said than done, because there are many things that needs to be considered, lot more than people realize.
Think of it this way. Let’s assume that there is backward universe; There is LAN tournament with equivalent size and prize pool as GSL in USA and tournaments in Korea are mostly online. If MVP, MC, Nestea and MKP were to be invited to States to participate in LAN tournament for a month(and they will be provided a place to sleep and practice like GOMTV is providing now), would they decide to go to US? I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
I am also aware that reaction on Korean community sites about foreign players declining invitation to Super Tournament because of its schedule have been translated and posted on teamliquid.net. There seems to be misunderstanding and it must be made clear that those opinions were solely about Super Tournament. I understand that in GSL regular season, making it to Code S beginning from Code A is very difficult for foreign players as there is too much to risk, and that is why we made League Exchange program with MLG. However my interview that was posted on PlayXP was response regarding an anonymous Fnatic person’s answer concerning Super Tournament, who gave reasons such as “1month is too long” “prize pool is not deep enough” “there is language barrier”. I was little startled when the interview was posted as the tone was much more aggressive than I actually had felt. At the time I was doing the interview, my feelings were more like “hmm? Interesting”.
Now enough about the misunderstanding, as I’m sure many of you are tired of it as there was discussion thread about it for a week. I’ll move on the good news.
As many of you are aware new GSL format will be applied in July. I’ve read many posts on teamliquid.net that people want to see more GSTL and also poll between GSL and GSTL. There have been many same requests from Koreans too and after long consideration I have changed the format more focusing on team leagues.
However the problem with new format is that it makes it difficult for foreign teams to participate in team league as they will have to stay in Korea for 2 months.
I tried my best to solve this problem and although I admit this is not the perfect solution here it is.
Firstly, “Foreign players can now participate as a mercenary in Korean team”. You may be able to see Jinro or Huk as member of oGs-TL in team league.
Accordingly, foreign players who come to Korea through MLG League Exchange, Rakaka tournament in Sweden, or come by themselves and qualify will not only be able to participate individual league but can also participate in GSTL as part of Korean team.
I cannot “force” the Korean teams to accept foreign players to their roster and have them play at least one set per match. However, Korean teams are willing to form alliance or partnership with foreign teams and they have stated that they will be happy to accept if there is any foreign team or player willing to join force. In fact Korean teams are very eager to recruit able foreign players.
If any foreign player who is entering GSL individual league and also wants to be part of team league feel free to contact either me or my assistant John. Through cooperation with Korean teams you will be provided with better practicing environment and opportunity to be part of GSTL.
Also I am open to idea of non-Korean team coming to Korean and play in GSTL. I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you.
I have provided “opportunity” through “system”, and “opportunity” is all that I can provide. Creating “results” is not my job but up to the players themselves, through their will and amount of practice.
Super Tournament is being held at the moment. I am always open to your opinions. I do not want SC2 to be just Korean e-sports thing like Brood War was. My goal is to make a league which viewers all around the world can enjoy and get hyped when watching.
I was 1st generation pro-gamer myself(I’m still in TLPD) and have been working in e-sports over 10 years.
Many of things that are happening now in e-sports are changes that never happened in past 10 years. I’m sure that you too feel that e-sports is evolving rapidly. If e-sports players and technology is running at 100km/h and if GSL and other tournaments can keep up with the speed we can create many wonderful things which we only dreamed of past 10 years.
I’m always grateful to viewers who watch GSL. I will soon get back to you with great news Also I will be attending MLG Columbus together with players from Korea. I have decided to go to MLG to witness the enthusiasm of American fans with my own eyes.
you get the sense that he is truly trying to find answers to problems, real or imagined, and he is doing this for the esports and for our collective future.
Thanks so much for taking the time to write a response to us, and we're sorry that it's reached a point where you had to do that. Please don't take Xeris' thoughts in any way, as a representation of us non-Koreans. Most of us are very happy with what GomTV has provided us.
Again, sorry for the ignorant post by Xeris. I would like to see him post a response though, he's been pretty silent since posting that long article. Coincidence?
On May 27 2011 20:00 ffadicted wrote: Amazing post <3
I agree completely. I think all the reasons the foreigners give is basically spawning from the fact that they don't think they're good enough to win the whole thing, and instead of participating in the hardest tournament in the world for the most money, they would rather settle for easy cash in the west (players like Idra, Incontrol, TT1, etc... that could be in GSL but choose not to be). This is easily evidence by a player like Naniwa, who IS good enough to at least compete, and can't wait to go there. These are the kind of players I love, who strive for the most competition, not the easiest reward.
Not to mention ALL the tournaments that they say they will "miss out on" are online tournaments, which koreans play in..... Doesn't make sense to me. Language/culture barrier is also very silly, look how well HuK and Jinro did staying with oGs!! If you're motivated, you can overcome such things sooooo easily. And now that more korean teams are on board for housing foreigners, they will be able to have the best practice in the world, playing in the best tournament in the world for the most money in the world.....
What's not to love?
The money required to actually go there?
The time away from your family?
The lack of money-earning potential considering the small chances that you have of actually getting anywhere. (not that foreigners are bad, but there are so many other players that actually getting to the top is easier said than done)
But I do like the main post. And I can't wait to hear the news concerning the foreign team that might actually go!!! :D
He is providing the opportunity. When there is something great and you are a person with great motivation and conviction. You will make sacrifices. I am sorry, but there are only few in that caliber. Those who reject the idea are people that haven't experience true desire of greatness. If you are a person who wants to be the best, then nothing will stop you. Naniwa wants to go because he fits this category. Players who make excuses do not have it in them .
If you want something, you go get it.
It doesn't come to you.
the opportunity is there.
Take it or leave it. Don't complain that it doesn't accommodate you.
It's a damn shame a higher level of play isn't given the respect it deserves. Our top foreign players are currently running around casting when they could be practising. It's depressing seeing all this money flying around in the west which is sponsoring a lower standard.
I hope Bomber MMA and Losira DOMINATE MLG. I don't get the sense that our top foriegner players have the work ethic to make them deserving of all this extra money which is been thrown at the western SC2 scene.
On May 27 2011 20:44 Krehlmar wrote: Let's face it, it's purely economic: Aslong as western players can keep getting more money for performing less instead of going to korea and competing they will.
Are the foreigners really playing SC2 because of money? I just....don't see it based on those rankings(Yes I'm aware there are a few sponsorship salaries involved as well). Maybe I'm just being cynical in regard to the financials, but it seems like the time spent on SC2, when devoted to other work or study, would net you a greater result. I think it's pretty safe to say that at least 99% of the pros play SC2 because they like it, and are passionate about it, and not because it's a viable stable source of income. So when the topic of economic viability comes up in regards to playing in Korea for a little while, it just seems so off base. It's a pretty small sacrifice to make for a once in a lifetime experience, playing on the biggest stage doing what you love.
On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote: Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option'. Also, do the prizes from GSTL go to the team themselves or the players? Would foreigners get equal prizemoney to the original players?
Trying to follow your favourite foreigner/team could also cause issues especially if players switch teams each time they go over to participate.
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
This. The OP doesn't actually address the specific issues that are creating this problem in the first place. His "backward universe" analogy just creates a circular argument and he mentions nothing about the language, lifestyle, the length/potential profitability of the tournament and whatnot. There is just no substance to his argument. So which concerns exactly from the foreigners do you not understand?
Like was said in the interview, there's nothing GOM can do about this at all, I think what he's trying to say is that if a similar opportunity was available for koreans on US soil, they'd definitely go, since they believe in their skill more, and have bigger passion for fulfilling their gamer's dreams, so they'd put up with similar sacrifices without thinking twice about it.
I think that speaks volumes of how serious koreans are about pro-gaming. It's also not something to "blame" on foreigners, as leaving your friends and family, possibly job/studies, or girlfriend, is definitely not something easy (it's potentially only a month though, I don't think it's THAT terrible, I'd do it if I were a top pro gamer). It's also something GOM can't do anything about. He's saying that the language, lifestyle, lenght/profitability, are a good trade for the glory of e-sports and e-fame. For them, it's good enough apparently.
I would nerdchill SO fucking hard if TL flew over all their players for the GSTL, but my money is on the team being FXO - the Malaysia house and a few of them have already gone over there and expressed interest. Either way, sounds pretty awesome :D
Also, once again need to thank Mr. Jung Won and GOMTV for taking the initiative, you guys get a lot of crap but you're still probably the rest run league out there <3 <3 <3
I still think the foreigners have points about the incongruity of the Korean scene vs the foreign scene, but I really like GOM's responses. It truly is not GOM's fault that it is difficult for foreigners to sacrifice to come to Korea to compete in GSL. Perhaps if Code A was a slightly larger prize pool it might be better, but really, besides making GSL shorter, there's not much that could be done to entice foreigners to come over. Really, the only thing that could really get much more involvement from the foreigners is better latency cross-server. That way being in korea wouldn't preclude people from playing in online events. Were this the case, I think it would be far less of a deal. But that's Blizzard's issue and not GOMs.
So, kudos to GOM for their response and their continued efforts to improve the GSL and promote cooperation between Koreans and foreigners.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. GOM/Gretech is a great organization and I'm glad to see that you are reaching out the the SC2 foreigner fans.
In the end, I think it comes down to foreigners believing that they don't have the skill level to compete in the GSL. They are to scared to achieve immortality, fame and glory. Like you said, MC, Nestea, MVP, MKP has the drive to become the best and if the situation was reversed they would come to the U.S. in a heartbeat. Foreigners mentality needs to change and they should stop being afraid. Major props to Huk and Jinro staying in Korea to compete with the best.
On May 27 2011 20:44 Krehlmar wrote: Let's face it, it's purely economic: Aslong as western players can keep getting more money for performing less instead of going to korea and competing they will.
Are the foreigners really playing SC2 because of money? I just....don't see it based on those rankings(Yes I'm aware there are a few sponsorship salaries involved as well). Maybe I'm just being cynical in regard to the financials, but it seems like the time spent on SC2, when devoted to other work or study, would net you a greater result. I think it's pretty safe to say that at least 99% of the pros play SC2 because they like it, and are passionate about it, and not because it's a viable stable source of income. So when the topic of economic viability comes up in regards to playing in Korea for a little while, it just seems so off base. It's a pretty small sacrifice to make for a once in a lifetime experience, playing on the biggest stage doing what you love.
I dunno, I could be way wrong.
well it includes only prices. Pros get money from sponsors, lessons, add revenue from stream and so on. So if they go to korea than: a) sponsors might not be interested in korea market. Cherry gum anyone? b) lower chance at giving lessons due to the time diffrence c) stream.. well i think they still could do it... But its from Korea so it depends on Gom mood ;P
On May 27 2011 20:00 ffadicted wrote: Amazing post <3
I agree completely. I think all the reasons the foreigners give is basically spawning from the fact that they don't think they're good enough to win the whole thing, and instead of participating in the hardest tournament in the world for the most money, they would rather settle for easy cash in the west (players like Idra, Incontrol, TT1, etc... that could be in GSL but choose not to be). This is easily evidence by a player like Naniwa, who IS good enough to at least compete, and can't wait to go there. These are the kind of players I love, who strive for the most competition, not the easiest reward.
Not to mention ALL the tournaments that they say they will "miss out on" are online tournaments, which koreans play in..... Doesn't make sense to me. Language/culture barrier is also very silly, look how well HuK and Jinro did staying with oGs!! If you're motivated, you can overcome such things sooooo easily. And now that more korean teams are on board for housing foreigners, they will be able to have the best practice in the world, playing in the best tournament in the world for the most money in the world.....
What's not to love?
The money required to actually go there?
The time away from your family?
The lack of money-earning potential considering the small chances that you have of actually getting anywhere. (not that foreigners are bad, but there are so many other players that actually getting to the top is easier said than done)
But I do like the main post. And I can't wait to hear the news concerning the foreign team that might actually go!!! :D
He is providing the opportunity. When there is something great and you are a person with great motivation and conviction. You will make sacrifices. I am sorry, but there are only few in that caliber. Those who reject the idea are people that haven't experience true desire of greatness. If you are a person who wants to be the best, then nothing will stop you. Naniwa wants to go because he fits this category. Players who make excuses do not have it in them .
If you want something, you go get it.
It doesn't come to you.
the opportunity is there.
Take it or leave it. Don't complain that it doesn't accommodate you.
lmfao
"Players who make excuses do not have it in them." sounds very high and mighty and all, but the fact in those are legitimate questions.
You cannot attain "greatness" in korea unless you make top 4 EVERY single month.
On May 27 2011 20:44 Krehlmar wrote: Let's face it, it's purely economic: Aslong as western players can keep getting more money for performing less instead of going to korea and competing they will.
Are the foreigners really playing SC2 because of money? I just....don't see it based on those rankings(Yes I'm aware there are a few sponsorship salaries involved as well). Maybe I'm just being cynical in regard to the financials, but it seems like the time spent on SC2, when devoted to other work or study, would net you a greater result. I think it's pretty safe to say that at least 99% of the pros play SC2 because they like it, and are passionate about it, and not because it's a viable stable source of income. So when the topic of economic viability comes up in regards to playing in Korea for a little while, it just seems so off base. It's a pretty small sacrifice to make for a once in a lifetime experience, playing on the biggest stage doing what you love.
I dunno, I could be way wrong.
Yes, they are. You can't look at it purely from a winnings standpoint, as the top Korean earners are all either players who won when SC2 was just starting and are somewhat among the top, as well as current absolute best players such as the Nestea/MC/MVP trio. Foreigners want easy money, not just money. The amount of effort they have to put in to win foreign tournaments with the lower level of competition is far less than the effort they would have to put in to stay in Code A, let alone get to Code S.
To put it simply, it's like if you were offered $10 to add a bunch of numbers together with a calculator or if you were offered the Millennium Prize to solve one of the problems ($1m for solving one of the following problems: http://www.claymath.org/millennium/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Prize_Problems ) which would most people take? I guarantee the majority of players would take the $10 instead of working toward the $1m. The scale of difficulty is just not worth their effort.
what is up with these excuses like: homesick, family, lifestyle. Haven't you wanted to go after a dream or something. Go to Korea and try to be the best at starcraft might a dream for some.
If people want to be a doctor, you will have to make sacrifices. Social life, family time, and debt. If become a doctor, it will be rewarding.
I feel like people who are talking about all this problems are people who like to safe and wait for things to happen. What happen to the stories about people saving all their money to put everything on the line to make the best of life.
On May 27 2011 19:55 Tachion wrote: GOMTV has always struck me as being incredibly accommodating to foreigners, and this is just 1 more (big)step that just reinforces that to me. Whatever the foreigners decide, just know that you are doing an incredible job over there.
Agreed. I thought the exchange program was already announced prior. ._. On some of the teams there will still be hard to communicate. Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if the team he's talking about is Team Dignitas.
MLG Columbus gets better and better every day...I'm gonna need some bigger than a t-shirt for all the people I plan to have sign it.
GSTL with foreigner mercenaries is one of the coolest concepts we've seen from GOM, I'd love to see a few EG/Fnatic/mouz/Dignitas players in each of the Korean teams for the team league.
On May 27 2011 21:24 Mailing wrote: You cannot attain "greatness" in korea unless you make top 4 EVERY single month.
what are u talking about? Jinro made 2 semifinals and he's half diety... everyone even respects HUK for making it to (and staying in) Code S, even tho he has a lot of ppl that hate him.
just being in Korea brings a SHITLOAD of popularity, so in terms of money it can be considered as investment.
example.
who ever heard for Moonglade before GSL? hes not on level to compete with best foreigners, let alone Koreans, so how do u know about him? what has he done? "top 4 EVERY single month" ?? i dont think so.
On May 27 2011 20:00 ffadicted wrote: Amazing post <3
I agree completely. I think all the reasons the foreigners give is basically spawning from the fact that they don't think they're good enough to win the whole thing, and instead of participating in the hardest tournament in the world for the most money, they would rather settle for easy cash in the west (players like Idra, Incontrol, TT1, etc... that could be in GSL but choose not to be). This is easily evidence by a player like Naniwa, who IS good enough to at least compete, and can't wait to go there. These are the kind of players I love, who strive for the most competition, not the easiest reward.
Not to mention ALL the tournaments that they say they will "miss out on" are online tournaments, which koreans play in..... Doesn't make sense to me. Language/culture barrier is also very silly, look how well HuK and Jinro did staying with oGs!! If you're motivated, you can overcome such things sooooo easily. And now that more korean teams are on board for housing foreigners, they will be able to have the best practice in the world, playing in the best tournament in the world for the most money in the world.....
What's not to love?
The money required to actually go there?
The time away from your family?
The lack of money-earning potential considering the small chances that you have of actually getting anywhere. (not that foreigners are bad, but there are so many other players that actually getting to the top is easier said than done)
But I do like the main post. And I can't wait to hear the news concerning the foreign team that might actually go!!! :D
He is providing the opportunity. When there is something great and you are a person with great motivation and conviction. You will make sacrifices. I am sorry, but there are only few in that caliber. Those who reject the idea are people that haven't experience true desire of greatness. If you are a person who wants to be the best, then nothing will stop you. Naniwa wants to go because he fits this category. Players who make excuses do not have it in them .
If you want something, you go get it.
It doesn't come to you.
the opportunity is there.
Take it or leave it. Don't complain that it doesn't accommodate you.
lmfao
"Players who make excuses do not have it in them." sounds very high and mighty and all, but the fact in those are legitimate questions.
You cannot attain "greatness" in korea unless you make top 4 EVERY single month.
So, you're saying foreigners aren't good enough to make top 4? Then you agree with the whole argument that foreigners are scared that they can't compete with the Koreans in the GSL. Like Mr. Chae said, this is something he can't control. He can't make it so that Koreans are less good than the foreigners. Foreigners need to start practicing a lot more 10-12 hours a day to become better. They need to put more effort, so that they don't need to be scared anymore.
On May 27 2011 20:00 ffadicted wrote: Amazing post <3
I agree completely. I think all the reasons the foreigners give is basically spawning from the fact that they don't think they're good enough to win the whole thing, and instead of participating in the hardest tournament in the world for the most money, they would rather settle for easy cash in the west (players like Idra, Incontrol, TT1, etc... that could be in GSL but choose not to be). This is easily evidence by a player like Naniwa, who IS good enough to at least compete, and can't wait to go there. These are the kind of players I love, who strive for the most competition, not the easiest reward.
Not to mention ALL the tournaments that they say they will "miss out on" are online tournaments, which koreans play in..... Doesn't make sense to me. Language/culture barrier is also very silly, look how well HuK and Jinro did staying with oGs!! If you're motivated, you can overcome such things sooooo easily. And now that more korean teams are on board for housing foreigners, they will be able to have the best practice in the world, playing in the best tournament in the world for the most money in the world.....
What's not to love?
The money required to actually go there?
The time away from your family?
The lack of money-earning potential considering the small chances that you have of actually getting anywhere. (not that foreigners are bad, but there are so many other players that actually getting to the top is easier said than done)
But I do like the main post. And I can't wait to hear the news concerning the foreign team that might actually go!!! :D
He is providing the opportunity. When there is something great and you are a person with great motivation and conviction. You will make sacrifices. I am sorry, but there are only few in that caliber. Those who reject the idea are people that haven't experience true desire of greatness. If you are a person who wants to be the best, then nothing will stop you. Naniwa wants to go because he fits this category. Players who make excuses do not have it in them .
If you want something, you go get it.
It doesn't come to you.
the opportunity is there.
Take it or leave it. Don't complain that it doesn't accommodate you.
lmfao
"Players who make excuses do not have it in them." sounds very high and mighty and all, but the fact in those are legitimate questions.
You cannot attain "greatness" in korea unless you make top 4 EVERY single month.
Then get top4 everytime then. Practice. Work hard. Jinro made top4 twice in a row. Its a matter of getting the right people to go, not just everybody.
On May 27 2011 20:44 Krehlmar wrote: Let's face it, it's purely economic: Aslong as western players can keep getting more money for performing less instead of going to korea and competing they will.
agreed
I don't agree. It's not that simple. If you do okay in a gsl you gain so much attention by the community and reputation. You gain so much for yourself as player... I think the effort of the poster is really great and is showing the gomtv intrest and support for foreigner. I really hope that our communitys are growing together and in the end we are all sc2 fans. Someone said, which ist quite true i think, that only the players will move who are really confident in themselves like naniwa.
soo i'm just excitet for whatever may come or work.
I think this makes a Code A/S spot a lot more attractive. The worst-case becomes "I go to Korea as Code A with free travel, lose in the Ro32, and get to live in a Korean practice house for a month".
Code S, certainly, is a lot more attractive when the worst-case scenario isn't lose in the Ro32 and play solitaire in the GOM house for a month.
by the way, i find it funny that gomtv representatives are coming to foreigners, when it should be the other way around. its like you go on an job interview and ask the boss questions to see if that's the right company for you, even though he's the one that will be paying you and should be privilaged to do the interview.
what im saying is you just dont do that, cause u need the job. foreigners are obviously spoiled by sc2 popularity atm, so we'll just have to wait for koreans to get so much better that no sane person will want to watch bronzie level play on foreign servers
if i sound angry its because im so dissapointed how unsportsmanship-like foreigners are... e-SPORTS after all.
Does this mean that Jinro can play for oGs/Liquid in the GSTL? Or could he always, and they just never brought him out?
Edit: Also, the GSTL format has the teams split into two groups of equal size. Wouldn't one foreigner team unbalance the groups? Does that mean we're getting two? Or is the foreigner team the tenth team, and not HoSeo like everyone assumed?
Ten games scheduled means 5 teams per group, so it's not "two teams".
On May 27 2011 21:36 snailz wrote: by the way, i find it funny that gomtv representatives are coming to foreigners, when it should be the other way around. its like you go on an job interview and ask the boss questions to see if that's the right company for you, even though he's the one that will be paying you and should be privilaged to do the interview.
what im saying is you just dont do that, cause u need the job. foreigners are obviously spoiled by sc2 popularity atm, so we'll just have to wait for koreans to get so much better that no sane person will want to watch bronzie level play on foreign servers
if i sound angry its because im so dissapointed how unsportsmanship-like foreigners are... e-SPORTS after all.
Cause we pay for the vods/stream. Koreans don't :p
Sigh. I was afraid that people from Gom such as Mr. Chae would read certain threads (pretty much all these "Problems with going to Korea" articles that people from Fnatic seem to be making) and realize how ridiculous some of the grievances are. I completely agree with Mr. Chae when he says that "The only thing I’m upset about is that most of the reasons mentioned are something GOMTV can’t solve(I doubt anyone can)." That's actually a criticism I gave to the "Korea needs to start paying attention to the West" article that was posted a few days ago. It mentions language barriers, cultural differences, cost of living in Korea being high, sponsorships, etc. I criticized the writer that many of those reasons are ridiculous, and that GomTV can do nothing about them (and has absolutely no obligation either).
I'm pretty embarrassed at how those articles made the foreign scene look. All I can say is that what Gom is doing seems to be an awesome idea, and I hope Mr. Chae's post really makes some ignorant folks realize that Gom really is going above and beyond the call of duty to accomodate foreigners.
Interesting with the mercenary idea, how will this effect team rankings could we see IM picking up Huk and Jinro just to get them into the team league?
I think part of problem was time you gave players to enter the super tournament it seemed like there was very little notice. With MLG deal how much time between winning the tournament and finding they got a gsl spot till next gsl?
If they have arrangements already for that season could they arrange to come next season?
In SC2 it seems like less prestige is put on LAN tournaments than i used to know in CS. Back in CS people got reps for being SOL(Shit On LAN) if they didn't attend LANs
I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you
Interesting. FXO? Can't be TL or EG (or is it?). Fnatic maybe? ARGH can't wait for that announcement ^^
it's gotta be dignitas. naniwa has talked about spending time on korea, select *is* korean and I think sjow mentioned it in the past at some point. i couldn't see it being any other team.
This mercenary thing reminds me of unreal tournament. It's a wonderful idea IMO. Something like "wild cards" that can be unleashed at a key moment.
About cultural differences - cmon, man up. Korea is a very good place to live - it is all about individual adaptability. Learn to enjoy their food and lifestyle, which is in fact not very different from other first-world Asian cities. This is coming from an Asian guy who has lived in Surrey, Melbourne, Singapore and Japan. They're not so different - it is a great adventure, in fact, to experience both west and east.
I love how people are thinking Fnatic may be the team that Parap was talking about. Somehow I doubt that they'de agree to head over after the long rant Xeris went on
I am very excited for the upcoming changes to the tournament style in July. I really like that the round of 32 will guarantee a 1,2,3,4 placement for the players. I think the GOM is doing an excellent job being dynamic and changing with the scene.
Also, the tournaments in EU/NA are growing at an astounding rate. They also are showing to be dynamic, exciting events. THe MLG/GSL exchange program is going to be a great idea,IMO. I hope that everyone in the scene can become excited about it. I feel that it rewards success in other tournaments. This is a good step for both MLG and GSL, as both tournaments have not recognized the performance of other players in the best way. An example is Thorzain. He was awesome in the TSL3, but he will have to play in the open brackets. I hope the the major tournaments can find ways to continue to be ever changing and excellent productions.
I think much of this debate will hinge on what happens at MLG. If the koreans come in and take most of the top spots it may motivate more foreigners to go to korea because they are falling behind and regardless of GSL results the better practice to be had is there. If the koreans don't do so hot, or only one of them places high, I don't think there will be much change and people will continue to decline invites to the GSL.
The arguments about the championship bracket at MLG being prestigious and people having to earn their way there are silly. Any top pro can roll their way in, we saw that last MLG. Inviting the koreans and then forcing them to play a ton of matches against amateurs is ludicrous, especially since in all likelihood that will be the only MLG event those specific koreans attend (maybe if one wins they will come back for the season championship).
On May 27 2011 21:36 snailz wrote: by the way, i find it funny that gomtv representatives are coming to foreigners, when it should be the other way around. its like you go on an job interview and ask the boss questions to see if that's the right company for you, even though he's the one that will be paying you and should be privilaged to do the interview.
what im saying is you just dont do that, cause u need the job. foreigners are obviously spoiled by sc2 popularity atm, so we'll just have to wait for koreans to get so much better that no sane person will want to watch bronzie level play on foreign servers
if i sound angry its because im so dissapointed how unsportsmanship-like foreigners are... e-SPORTS after all.
Cause we pay for the vods/stream. Koreans don't :p
you also pay for the NASL, and compared to GSL... actually i wont even go there. i dont have to. its too ridiculous
anyhows, im not saying Gom doesnt want the money, obviously they (everybody) does. i'm just saying that with their service they earn every last cent we give them. to be honest its even quite cheap for production quality!
On May 27 2011 21:40 HolyArrow wrote: Sigh. I was afraid that people from Gom such as Mr. Chae would read certain threads (pretty much all these "Problems with going to Korea" articles that people from Fnatic seem to be making) and realize how ridiculous some of the grievances are. I completely agree with Mr. Chae when he says that "The only thing I’m upset about is that most of the reasons mentioned are something GOMTV can’t solve(I doubt anyone can)." That's actually a criticism I gave to the "Korea needs to start paying attention to the West" article that was posted a few days ago. It mentions language barriers, cultural differences, cost of living in Korea being high, sponsorships, etc. I criticized the writer that many of those reasons are ridiculous, and that GomTV can do nothing about them (and has absolutely no obligation either).
I'm pretty embarrassed at how those articles made the foreign scene look. All I can say is that what Gom is doing seems to be an awesome idea, and I hope Mr. Chae's post really makes some ignorant folks realize that Gom really is going above and beyond the call of duty to accomodate foreigners.
On May 27 2011 21:13 ct2299 wrote: Hi Chae Jung Won,
Thanks so much for taking the time to write a response to us, and we're sorry that it's reached a point where you had to do that. Please don't take Xeris' thoughts in any way, as a representation of us non-Koreans. Most of us are very happy with what GomTV has provided us.
Again, sorry for the ignorant post by Xeris. I would like to see him post a response though, he's been pretty silent since posting that long article. Coincidence?
Pretty much sums up all my thoughts. Thanks for Chae Jung Won for writing a response to TL.
Oh, and about the foreigner team going to GSTL, i can see Dignitas, Taiwanese and chinese teams (TT maybe?)or FXO going there.
On May 27 2011 21:36 snailz wrote: by the way, i find it funny that gomtv representatives are coming to foreigners, when it should be the other way around. its like you go on an job interview and ask the boss questions to see if that's the right company for you, even though he's the one that will be paying you and should be privilaged to do the interview.
what im saying is you just dont do that, cause u need the job. foreigners are obviously spoiled by sc2 popularity atm, so we'll just have to wait for koreans to get so much better that no sane person will want to watch bronzie level play on foreign servers
if i sound angry its because im so dissapointed how unsportsmanship-like foreigners are... e-SPORTS after all.
Don't sit there and think its a 1 way street. GOM wants and needs foreigners in their tournament not only for the viewers but to be considered a global league. Foreigners have advantages and disadvantages going to Korea and tournaments like the GSL can only prosper with foreign attendance. GOM making all these concessions to get foreigners in their tournaments is not simply charity.
so stupid that people are still complaining about cultural differences and the language barrier. I mean if u have a dream that you wanna achieve, then u gotta make som sacrifices. If not then that's fine as well, just stay home. Surely it's not GOM and Korea responsibility to change everything to accommodate a foreigners need.
I've travelled a bit and lived over seas several times and part of the experience is the cultural differences etc. If u can't deal with that. Stay home.
GOM is doing a very good job in welcoming foreigners i think.
Everyone in korea to speak english so there is no language barriers. Fly their friends and family out every so oftern to visit so there is no spending time with family excuse. Koreans to not be as good so I can make money playing this game. Have every tourney 5k+ and only a couple of days long. Fly me to other international tourneys so I can do more than just korean tourneys.
Might be drastic, but you guys get the idea haha. Some people just want everything to fit their needs, which shouldn't be the case.
it's a hard problem to solve, and I think the biggest nut to crack is the fact that there is really only 1 way to perform in korea (GSL) whereas there's tons of smaller tourneys for practice and whatnot outside of korea which makes it easier if you aren't sure you are the absolute top-notch and going to win (since the toughest competition is likely not going to be in every tournament ever at all times)
I thought I would add my korean insight that I am so fond of. I love korea. I love the e-sports in Korea and what it represents.. But for anyone who has never been overseas, and is a bit timid, the language barrier is a big deal.... Real big.
Although with more than 1 person being in Korea at a time, it is easier for players for sure. So I guess the best way to break the current opinion of korea in the west, is to send more than one player at a time??? That way ppl can lean on each other to make sure that any barriers are easily broken.
At the same time, most koreans seem to be able to read/write english, so if worse comes to worse, get a pen and paper and go nuts!!!
Nice, well written, address to the public. Well done
On May 27 2011 21:36 snailz wrote: by the way, i find it funny that gomtv representatives are coming to foreigners, when it should be the other way around. its like you go on an job interview and ask the boss questions to see if that's the right company for you, even though he's the one that will be paying you and should be privilaged to do the interview.
what im saying is you just dont do that, cause u need the job. foreigners are obviously spoiled by sc2 popularity atm, so we'll just have to wait for koreans to get so much better that no sane person will want to watch bronzie level play on foreign servers
if i sound angry its because im so dissapointed how unsportsmanship-like foreigners are... e-SPORTS after all.
Cause we pay for the vods/stream. Koreans don't :p
you also pay for the NASL, and compared to GSL... actually i wont even go there. i dont have to. its too ridiculous
anyhows, im not saying Gom doesnt want the money, obviously they (everybody) does. i'm just saying that with their service they earn every last cent we give them. to be honest its even quite cheap for production quality!
I think you didnt get it. To GOM we are the customers. If we are happy then they are happy and loaded with cash. Why was their 4 free spots for code A in the begining? Why the MLG exchange program? Answer it yourself.
On May 27 2011 21:36 snailz wrote: by the way, i find it funny that gomtv representatives are coming to foreigners, when it should be the other way around. its like you go on an job interview and ask the boss questions to see if that's the right company for you, even though he's the one that will be paying you and should be privilaged to do the interview.
what im saying is you just dont do that, cause u need the job. foreigners are obviously spoiled by sc2 popularity atm, so we'll just have to wait for koreans to get so much better that no sane person will want to watch bronzie level play on foreign servers
if i sound angry its because im so dissapointed how unsportsmanship-like foreigners are... e-SPORTS after all.
Don't sit there and think its a 1 way street. GOM wants and needs foreigners in their tournament not only for the viewers but to be considered a global league. Foreigners have advantages and disadvantages going to Korea and tournaments like the GSL can only prosper with foreign attendance. GOM making all these concessions to get foreigners in their tournaments is not simply charity.
you're right, it's vision! ))
on a serious note, even if i partly agree with your posts, i still have to direct you to phenomena that starcraft is in korea. sc2 is not bw yet, but korea can (and has) done good without the world, and unfortunately its not the other way around in any scenario u take. so i would say globalisation of sc2 is not something korea needs, but wants - to make it better. evolution.
edit: this can be reply to Frankon as well. im not denying gom can make more money going global, just saying that out of two "evils" lesser one is them making money and esports becoming a thing in the west. opposed to gom staying in korea and sc2 becoming what bw is outside of korea.
This is why I wish there was less random tournament for decent prizes. A $2500 first place tournament that gets played over a week is something that's hurting the big leagues. The greedy players will prefer to get the $2500 reward for the easy tournament than earn that in qualifying to round of 16-8 or something in the best tournaments around, it's kind of sad for the viewer.
I know people are not gonna like having less and less tournament, but as people said, as long as there is easier money to get for the players, the greedy ones will prefer to to participate in the easier stuff and make money.
I really love GOMtv, and I think they are doing a great job (in fact, they are do a so amazing job that calling it just great is not enough), and I'm disappointed the foreigners declined invitations, but I hope the future brings change to the players' to their senses.
I hope the Sponsors of the SC2 foreign teams put a line in the contract that says "Not allowed to turn down invites to GSL".
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: [...] While I understand some of these, I do not understand others. [...]
Interesting post and nice to see gom thinking about new, different ways to get Koreans and foreigners together.
But: What exactly don't you understand about the foreigners points about not coming to Korea? You mention that MC etc all would come to the USA if there was a league with the same settings (pricepool, time, ...) as GSL.
a) Unimportant argument, but I doubt that this is true - cuz then they would already go there. Why? See point b)
b) The reason which at least some foreigners mentioned for not going to Korea is that 1. the GSL is tough but more important 2. in Europe/USA there are WAY more tournaments with big prizepools going on right now than "just" the GSL. + as you know it suxx to miss a MLG event cuz of the points etc.
Anyways, nice to read GOM's thoughts, just thought that the opening of the post was a bit weird.
Do we really want more foreigners in the GSL? Would love to see a poll. I don't care much for it to be honest.
I've always bought a ticket because I enjoy watching the koreans play much more. We have many leagues and tournaments to see foreigners play, they don't have to be in the GSL.
With GSTL 2 days a week, that would be so good to now see one or two foreigners playing each week instead of each month or two \o/ The current "rate" of tourney apparition for huk and jinro isn't very high, so we can't follow their progress or their playstyles really. If we're able to see them everyweek, I will <3
Awesome response; I think Gom is moving in all the right directions. I was already psyched about the team league format changes, the potential for foreign players in it is just the cherry on top!
I thought I would add my korean insight that I am so fond of. I love korea. I love the e-sports in Korea and what it represents.. But for anyone who has never been overseas, and is a bit timid, the language barrier is a big deal.... Real big.
Although with more than 1 person being in Korea at a time, it is easier for players for sure. So I guess the best way to break the current opinion of korea in the west, is to send more than one player at a time??? That way ppl can lean on each other to make sure that any barriers are easily broken.
At the same time, most koreans seem to be able to read/write english, so if worse comes to worse, get a pen and paper and go nuts!!!
Nice, well written, address to the public. Well done
hm.. seems like FXO is not the team that Mr.Chae mentioned.
On May 27 2011 21:14 Goibon wrote: I love GOM so much <3
It's a damn shame a higher level of play isn't given the respect it deserves. Our top foreign players are currently running around casting when they could be practising. It's depressing seeing all this money flying around in the west which is sponsoring a lower standard.
I hope Bomber MMA and Losira DOMINATE MLG. I don't get the sense that our top foriegner players have the work ethic to make them deserving of all this extra money which is been thrown at the western SC2 scene.
I still can't help but feel that the GSL kinda miss the point. It's not a matter of living in Korea and playing in foreign tournaments - HuK and Jinro have managed to make it to MLG, true, but you don't see them playing in the many other tournaments here in North America because of latency issues. TL isn't in the EGMC for that reason. And players in Korea have had to miss major LAN events because of GSL scheduling (IdrA missing Dreamhack, most notably). This isn't the GSL's fault but that doesn't stop it from being a problem. Same for language barriers, etc - not the GSL's fault, still a problem anyways. I've never really gotten the impression that people blame the GSL for not having foreigners, they're very accomodating but there are problems beyond their control.
On May 27 2011 21:26 videogames wrote: Foreigners just aren't good enough to win a GSL. They know this and that's the real reason why they won't go.
This attitude just pisses me off. Foreigners have shown that they can compete on equal footing with Koreans in a lot of tournaments - the TSL, NASL, GSL World Championship, and a dozen other tournaments so far this year where Koreans have beaten foreigners and foreigners have also beaten Koreans. Not only that but this attitude is incredibly insulting to the players who, pardon the cliche, are in it to win.
Despite this, its great to see the GSL actively try to engage with the foreign community. This:
I am always open to your opinions. I do not want SC2 to be just Korean e-sports thing like Brood War was. My goal is to make a league which viewers all around the world can enjoy and get hyped when watching.
On May 27 2011 20:32 Fubi wrote: Just as Mr.Chae said, players like Nestea, MVP, MC, etc would go to the states/europe had the situation of the SC scene be reversed. So to me, all these excuses coming from the foreign teams are just excuses to cover up the lack of dedication, mentality and skills from their players.
I just find that a very easy statement to make - but harder to back up.
I would grant the fact that the korean players at the top level are more focused and dedicated, because frankly most western players lead more wellrounded lives (the use of the word wellrounded is definately a subjective assesment, But I will stand by it). The foreigners are simply giving up more to go to Korea than the Koreans would be giving up by going to the US. On average.
So to some extent you would probably see a bigger exodus from Korea > US than the other way around if the tournamental sutiations were flipped. But not as definitive as concluded in the OP, I suspect. Because that would also mean more online tournaments with decent prizes for the korean players at home.
What I have been pondering lately, though, is why is this so important anyways? (Note: In what comes next I try not to make any claims about knowing anything. Just speculation. If I do make statements of fact, consider it an error. I am willing to reconsider anything written below. )
What matters to me is that e-sports flourish - but I don't think the korean situation can be replicated. It seems to have arisen from a very cultural and very specific socioeconomic circumstances. And in a broad perspective I have a feeling that it does not particularly help to force a connection or fusion between the Korean e-sports scene and the non-Korean ones.
For e-sports to expand you need to establish connections between even the most casual viewer and the contestants. I would think that is better done by focusing locally rather than globally.
Even if we would always know that the Koreans were better, I think it will kill a lot of potential sponsorships and viewership to have them constantly taking up the top stops in every tournament of note all over the world. The casual viewer will have a limited understanding of the games intricacies, so he/she must feel some connection the to players.
In normal, structurally comparable, sports like tennis and golf its much easier for Joe Average to recognise the physical skill required, so the connection is made through that.
That might be a quite subjective analysis, seeing as I personally feel no interest in the Korean players (I know that a lot of people do ofc. ). I can recognise their skill but it matters zilch to me which of them are up and down. The foreign players are much more interesting me - as I see much more interesting characters there. TLO, Naniwa, Idra, InControl to name a few. You can hate them or love them, but in one way or another you relate to them, when you do so.
It might just be a cultural divide and lack of following the Korean scene that makes it had for me to make the same distinctions there, sure. But that will also be the case for the average spectator and consequently also for the people deciding whether it is something they want to dump money into in the form of prizes and sponsorships.
I don't see the Korean players generating that kind of interest except to the afficionados.
Thats all not to say that the players should not be measured against each other globally now and again. But the growing trend to make every tournament a global thing is going to diminish the interest in all of them, I think.
I thought I would add my korean insight that I am so fond of. I love korea. I love the e-sports in Korea and what it represents.. But for anyone who has never been overseas, and is a bit timid, the language barrier is a big deal.... Real big.
Although with more than 1 person being in Korea at a time, it is easier for players for sure. So I guess the best way to break the current opinion of korea in the west, is to send more than one player at a time??? That way ppl can lean on each other to make sure that any barriers are easily broken.
At the same time, most koreans seem to be able to read/write english, so if worse comes to worse, get a pen and paper and go nuts!!!
Nice, well written, address to the public. Well done
hm.. seems like FXO is not the team that Mr.Chae mentioned.
On May 27 2011 22:11 Treadmill wrote: I still can't help but feel that the GSL kinda miss the point. It's not a matter of living in Korea and playing in foreign tournaments - HuK and Jinro have managed to make it to MLG, true, but you don't see them playing in the many other tournaments here in North America because of latency issues. TL isn't in the EGMC for that reason. And players in Korea have had to miss major LAN events because of GSL scheduling (IdrA missing Dreamhack, most notably). This isn't the GSL's fault but that doesn't stop it from being a problem. Same for language barriers, etc - not the GSL's fault, still a problem anyways. I've never really gotten the impression that people blame the GSL for not having foreigners, they're very accomodating but there are problems beyond their control.
Offcourse its the latency issue that makes July, Sen, Boxer, Squirtle be on top of NASL (NA server online event) rankings....
Think of it this way. Let’s assume that there is backward universe; There is LAN tournament with equivalent size and prize pool as GSL in USA and tournaments in Korea are mostly online. If MVP, MC, Nestea and MKP were to be invited to States to participate in LAN tournament for a month(and they will be provided a place to sleep and practice like GOMTV is providing now), would they decide to go to US? I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
On May 27 2011 22:11 Treadmill wrote: I still can't help but feel that the GSL kinda miss the point. It's not a matter of living in Korea and playing in foreign tournaments - HuK and Jinro have managed to make it to MLG, true, but you don't see them playing in the many other tournaments here in North America because of latency issues. TL isn't in the EGMC for that reason. And players in Korea have had to miss major LAN events because of GSL scheduling (IdrA missing Dreamhack, most notably). This isn't the GSL's fault but that doesn't stop it from being a problem. Same for language barriers, etc - not the GSL's fault, still a problem anyways. I've never really gotten the impression that people blame the GSL for not having foreigners, they're very accomodating but there are problems beyond their control.
Offcourse its the latency issue that makes July, Sen, Boxer, Squirtle be on top of NASL (NA server online event) rankings....
Its the fact that theyre superior players, who can win despite playing in the middle of the night with terrible latency
On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote: Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option' - why would Liquid who was willing once to have their entire team (or close to it) in Korea do it again when they can just lease HuK and Jinro off to oGs or another team?
Well, first off... the Korean teams have to accept the players.
However, I don't think that there is any team right now that would want to send their full team, but isnt because there isn't an easier option. It's just that most people would prefer not to go.
This makes it much easier for single or very small groups (2-3) players go to Korea for GSL. I'm thinking Naniwa for example might really love this.
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
Its about the fame and the glory! Winning a prestegious tournament like the GSL is a great title. And of course the nice first place and second place prize pool.
I think language, lifestyle, and leaving friends behind are small things that aren't really valid excuses. Thats what happens when you go to a new place -- it's an experience. And theyre not too difficult to work around.
Cost and time commitment on the other hand... Well, I think its really mostly about the prestige. If you're in it for just the money, GSL really isnt a good option for a foreigner.
You got it the wrong way around.
"Lifestyle" and leaving friends behind are the really big issues. Time commitment is part of "lifestyle", see earlier posts around how different schedules are in Korean houses, or Idra's interviews months back on why he preferred to pull back from Korea.
Cost is the smaller issue. You can take on debt; if you're successful you'll pay it off, if not, you'll have to find another source of income (sc2 or not) and pay it off later. Don't get me wrong, money is important, but in the end money is just money -- as dire as your current financial situation may seem, just by traveling you won't dig yourself a hole that you won't be able to work your way out of within a decade from now. (I know what I'm talking about.)
Leaving behind your entire social circle for a serious amount of time, and for reasons that they may not value as much as you do, is not something that you can simply pay back later -- some friendships will be lost, many opportunities for new social contacts will be gone. If you don't speak the language and aren't embedded in the Korean culture, there's no way you can compensate for that during your time there. Especially given that many of the progamers are at an age which is often considered the prime time to start finding serious partners and (socially) getting settled, that is not something to shrug off easily.
guess what ? most korean progamer are also left their entire social circle most as early age as 13-14 to live in the progaming house and spend 24/6 playing, talking starcraft
that's how they able to be as good as they are, by sacrificing their personal way of life and maybe their chances of finding 'serious partner'
WOW can you imagine a powerhouse international team competing LIVE in GSTL doing ceremonies and stuff? That would be amazing!
Thanks for taking the time to actually respond to things. I bet tons of stuff tends to get lost in translation between foreigners and Koreans. GOM has always been accommodating of foreigners though, it's really awesome to see that.
Sorry it came out harsher than I meant lol. Sheth is really the only one with recent form is what I meant, I havent been following SEA so Filthy Ice etc I haven't seen in a while. I also think a team like Mouz or Dignitas has more proven top teir players so I would like to see how they stack up in GSL.
On May 27 2011 22:11 Treadmill wrote: I still can't help but feel that the GSL kinda miss the point. It's not a matter of living in Korea and playing in foreign tournaments - HuK and Jinro have managed to make it to MLG, true, but you don't see them playing in the many other tournaments here in North America because of latency issues. TL isn't in the EGMC for that reason. And players in Korea have had to miss major LAN events because of GSL scheduling (IdrA missing Dreamhack, most notably). This isn't the GSL's fault but that doesn't stop it from being a problem. Same for language barriers, etc - not the GSL's fault, still a problem anyways. I've never really gotten the impression that people blame the GSL for not having foreigners, they're very accomodating but there are problems beyond their control.
Offcourse its the latency issue that makes July, Sen, Boxer, Squirtle be on top of NASL (NA server online event) rankings....
Its the fact that theyre superior players, who can win despite playing in the middle of the night with terrible latency
Based on that fact Huk and Jinro are "medicore" player who dont want to play cause they know they would lose? Ok. troll mode off. Western players are just afraid that koreans will come to their events and get their money and they dont try to do the same even if they are given a opportunity...
Mr. Chae is easily one of the hardest working people in E-sports and everyone that enjoys the GSL owes him a lot.
One topic I wanted to briefly chime in on is the subject of forgiegn players not getting good practice partners in Korea. The new rules with the GSTL are great, but I feel that it should be made clear that it was already easy to get Korean players to practice with. During the GSL world championships I know for a fact that MorroW played with ST_Squirtle, Sen practiced with IM_MVP and ST_Bomber played practice games with a number of people as well. cArn even lived in the MVP house for a time. All you have to do is ask and something can be set up. The Korean players were excited to get to practice with foreigners.
So my point is this, if you're a player and the only thing holding you back from coming (that is, money and other tournaments aren't an issue for you) is the worry over if you'll have practice partners or just be stuck on the KR ladder, don't worry. The Korean players want to play with you!
Sorry it came out harsher than I meant lol. Sheth is really the only one with recent form is what I meant, I havent been following SEA so Filthy Ice etc I haven't seen in a while. I also think a team like Mouz or Dignitas has more proven top teir players so I would like to see how they stack up in GSL.
Props to Gom for engaging and listening to the community as well as actively finding solutions to improve their leagues. Hopefully the changes and partnership they make will have some positive results as I like many of the ideas Gom is proposing.
I am very excited that the GSTL will be more prominent in the future, for me the GSTL format is the most exciting and produce the most epic games ^^.
One thing I would like to ask Gom is whether they have ever consider hosting like a smaller weekend tournament akin to MLG, Dreamhack..etc (maybe like once every 2 months). I think more foreign players might be more willing to tryout for such a tournament since the time and money commitment will be just over a few days instead of a month (or 2) like the GSL. This can also help circumvent many of the other problems such as language, lifestyle, away from family...
I guess what I am saying is that moving abroad for a month is a very big change while moving for a few days sounds less intimidating. Also, those that do go might have a positive experience and may end up staying for the GSL.
nice read, and good post by gom caster, glad they're reaching out. Im' guessing the team is fnatic, I also hope team liquid is in there since they've made significant investments in korean sc2. like others i'm glad gstl is getting a more prominent role. team formats, allow lots of players to shine and display their talents, come through for their team etc etc.
Having a foreign team in GSTL (and just more GSTL in general) would be and is amazing :o
Also, despite the problems some players and teams may have with moving to Korea to play Starcraft, you can't (and I don't believe the players and teams in question do not) fault GOM for providing such opportunity for the foreign scene. It's amazing to see these kind of olive branches - especially after 10 years of isolated BW competition.
What kind of support do foreign teams give players in terms of money/sponsors/practice facilities? Because the impression I get is that most foreign teams don't pay/provide those things even at the level of the Korean gaming teams. I could be wrong, but it seems like that would be a huge factor.
Obviously it's not just the money thing since MLG/GSL are providing transport/lodging, but it seems to me that until the west reaches the point where the teams are the foundation and call most of the shots for their players (though hopefully without repeats ridiculousness like T1's one starleague rule), we're going to be handicapped in comparison to Korea. (Maybe we're here already and I just don't know it? But most announcements I see are "this player" rather than "this team", so I'm guessing not.)
If GSL, for instance, had a roster of teams eligible to send players to qualifiers/earn points towards team league play, then it seems like you could get whole teams involved (some people have mentioned dignitas for instance) and structure things that way... idk, I'm speculating here mainly.
There are some great pieces of information and changes here. Props to GSL.
I wish I could hear their thoughts on the other reasons why some players are choosing to not goto Korea, and that's the fact that the number of frequency of NA/EU tournaments has increased 10 fold.
I honestly believe that we'll see Koreans want to travel and participate in these tournaments very soon (we're already seeing the beginning of this process). However, I'm excited to hear that we might get some international teams in GSTL. It's really been a fantastic addition to the GSL.
It's pretty simple honestly. The tournament is too long. Koreans would come to the US for a LAN tournament, but they wouldn't come for a month and miss Code S/Code A entirely and have to start from the B group again. That's the kind of thing it feels like to miss an MLG or a Dreamhack or other up and coming tournaments.
GSL wants foreigners who have decent chance to win GSL.
GSL don't want people who are concerning failing in RO64 due to lack of skill, lack of confidence etc. Mr.Chae mentioned MKP,MVP,MC,Nestea because he thinks that they would go to Korea and compete GSL if they were foreigners.
Nobody wants refuse to go Korea if they have decent chance to get 92k just for one month. Look Naniwa. He wants to go to Korea because he thinks he has high chance to win. people that like him, are the people GSL wants.
On May 27 2011 22:30 djWHEAT wrote: There are some great pieces of information and changes here. Props to GSL.
I wish I could hear their thoughts on the other reasons why some players are choosing to not goto Korea, and that's the fact that the number of frequency of NA/EU tournaments has increased 10 fold.
I honestly believe that we'll see Koreans want to travel and participate in these tournaments very soon (we're already seeing the beginning of this process). However, I'm excited to hear that we might get some international teams in GSTL. It's really been a fantastic addition to the GSL.
Wheat, do you believe the early success of SC2 is due to hype and is a bubble waiting to burst or is sustainable?
Because in my opinion, the west is experiencing a bubble. There's a huge influx of money and interest. Lots of leagues and tournaments popping up everywhere. However, A) There might be too much content/too small of an audience and B) Corporate interest will wane as the hype dies down. What the GSL and Korea is establishing/trying to establish seems to be a more sustainable and stable scene for the future where as the west seems to be trying to cash in right now.
On May 27 2011 20:00 ffadicted wrote: Amazing post <3
I agree completely. I think all the reasons the foreigners give is basically spawning from the fact that they don't think they're good enough to win the whole thing, and instead of participating in the hardest tournament in the world for the most money, they would rather settle for easy cash in the west (players like Idra, Incontrol, TT1, etc... that could be in GSL but choose not to be). This is easily evidence by a player like Naniwa, who IS good enough to at least compete, and can't wait to go there. These are the kind of players I love, who strive for the most competition, not the easiest reward.
Not to mention ALL the tournaments that they say they will "miss out on" are online tournaments, which koreans play in..... Doesn't make sense to me. Language/culture barrier is also very silly, look how well HuK and Jinro did staying with oGs!! If you're motivated, you can overcome such things sooooo easily. And now that more korean teams are on board for housing foreigners, they will be able to have the best practice in the world, playing in the best tournament in the world for the most money in the world.....
What's not to love?
The money required to actually go there?
The time away from your family?
The lack of money-earning potential considering the small chances that you have of actually getting anywhere. (not that foreigners are bad, but there are so many other players that actually getting to the top is easier said than done)
But I do like the main post. And I can't wait to hear the news concerning the foreign team that might actually go!!! :D
Money? It's called teams and sponsors. Time away from your family? It's called being a big boy, you're trying to do this for a living aren't you? Most of the players are old enough to not need their diapers changed. If your personal reasons to not go are more powerful than going, stop whining. It's your problem that you don't want to go not GOMs. This family thing makes people sound more like spoiled brats rather than serious individuals trying to follow a dream. Adversity is part of life, more so when following a hard to reach goal.
The only problem I see is that most teams are just too short on cash so it's impossible for them to support players long term in Korea but wth, instead of trying to find more money they shouldn't go whine at GOM to make things cheaper, especially since they did as much as they could. You want to grow the industry not cheapen it/beg for freebies, don't you?
The solution to all this is for more money to go to teams/bigger and better sponsors.
Since for GSTL you need at least 9 players my dream foreign team would be comprise of the following players: Liquid.Jinro EG.Idra Fnatic.SEn Dignitas.Naniwa Whitera Mouz.Thorzain mTw.Dimaga Dignitas.Select Root.Kiwikaki Someone get these 9 players together and form 1 team to compete in Korea!!!
On May 27 2011 22:30 djWHEAT wrote: There are some great pieces of information and changes here. Props to GSL.
I wish I could hear their thoughts on the other reasons why some players are choosing to not goto Korea, and that's the fact that the number of frequency of NA/EU tournaments has increased 10 fold.
I honestly believe that we'll see Koreans want to travel and participate in these tournaments very soon (we're already seeing the beginning of this process). However, I'm excited to hear that we might get some international teams in GSTL. It's really been a fantastic addition to the GSL.
So foreigners wont go to korea because of all the NA/EU tourneys but the Koreans can come to compete in them as well as being in GSL? or do you mean guys who didn't make code A will start coming over?
Losing r 32 in code S = 4th place MLG as far a prizemoney goes and you'd need to win 10 weekly cups to = that.
On May 27 2011 22:30 djWHEAT wrote: There are some great pieces of information and changes here. Props to GSL.
I wish I could hear their thoughts on the other reasons why some players are choosing to not goto Korea, and that's the fact that the number of frequency of NA/EU tournaments has increased 10 fold.
I honestly believe that we'll see Koreans want to travel and participate in these tournaments very soon (we're already seeing the beginning of this process). However, I'm excited to hear that we might get some international teams in GSTL. It's really been a fantastic addition to the GSL.
Wheat, do you believe the early success of SC2 is due to hype and is a bubble waiting to burst or is sustainable?
Because in my opinion, the west is experiencing a bubble. There's a huge influx of money and interest. Lots of leagues and tournaments popping up everywhere. However, A) There might be too much content/too small of an audience and B) Corporate interest will wane as the hype dies down. What the GSL and Korea is establishing/trying to establish seems to be a more sustainable and stable scene for the future where as the west seems to be trying to cash in right now.
I don't think referring to it as a bubble is fair. bubble imply's it'll burst the interest will have its up and downs but I don't think it'll burst think Starcraft 2 will have enough interest in it to keep enough sponsors in it than there has ever been in a previous e-sport and I don't think anything will come that will match it for a long time well over 5 years after final expansion atleast and even then itll still stay strong.
I love the mercenaries idea! GOMtv once again showing that they are thinking hard for solutions, lets hope this means players will have more reason to go to korea, the chance to play in the team league as well as the main 1v1 tourney is another big plus and should be enough to turn the tide for some players.
On May 27 2011 21:26 videogames wrote: Foreigners just aren't good enough to win a GSL. They know this and that's the real reason why they won't go.
It's very easy to make these grand statements but what if it was your livelihood on the line? Would you take a tremendous financial risk and leave home/place to live/source of income just on the offshoot you CAN beat MC or Nestea or someone and win a GSL? Even if you're a contender most individuals are risk averse enough to not opt for travel. Stop throwing these melodramatic lines around.
On May 27 2011 22:39 Blitz Beat wrote: What the GSL and Korea is establishing/trying to establish seems to be a more sustainable and stable scene for the future where as the west seems to be trying to cash in right now.
Don't think its quite as sinister as that though.
Of course people are doing their best to create as much attention as possible while the opportunity is there. But I don't think any of them are doing it without the hope that it can be something sustainable. Are they going about it the best way? That can be debated, but I doubt they are knowingly going about it a wrong way for deliberate financial reasons.
Is a specific game at all "sustainable" these days? Could be argued that SC1/BW in Korea is a freak occurence, fx. While E-sports is growing, I still have my doubts on whether specific games can be the driving force for many years, before something else takes over and would be the featured game. Hard to predict at least.
On May 27 2011 21:26 videogames wrote: Foreigners just aren't good enough to win a GSL. They know this and that's the real reason why they won't go.
It's very easy to make these grand statements but what if it was your livelihood on the line? Would you take a tremendous financial risk and leave home/place to live/source of income just on the offshoot you CAN beat MC or Nestea or someone and win a GSL? Even if you're a contender most individuals are risk averse enough to not opt for travel. Stop throwing these melodramatic lines around.
This is well said, foreigners keeps saying SC2 will be a fresh start, and Koreans won't dominate it like they did in bw, proof it and go to GSL and win a few. We don't have enough Foreigners that are good enough and in the same time trying hard.
Just thought I'd post here to offer props to Mr Chae and the whole Gom TV staff.
I realise that you guys probably hear a fair number of complaints from the TL community, and because this is the internet the negative voices tend to be the loudest. So I just wanted to say that there are a LOT of people out there (like me) who think you guys are doing a wonderful job and hope that you keep up the good work. GSL fighting!
I feel like GSL has the best intentions with the players of the rest of the world however I do have some comments about your theory of the backward universe. I'd like to add a few things to add to this backward universe then that you have forgotten and weighs heavily into the consideration of foreign players.
1. Lets say not Korea but the rest have world have played Starcraft 1 intensively for the last decade and we have various gaming powerhouses who live and breathe starcraft every day and in turn this resulted in great Starcraft 2 houses too.
2. Lets say Korea has loads of online tournaments where the prize pools individually might not be as big as the rest of the world only tournament but the prize pools range from 5000 and 10000 each small tournament and its run in such a way that they can compete in several at the same time(much like NASL/IPL/TSL/EG Master's Cup and so on. Not only that Korea's competition would be at such a lvl that many players feel like they a chance at it. If they lose 1 that tournament well hell...there is allways that other tournament with the fairly big prize pool
3. With all these "smaller" tournaments these Korean online leagues have created many new heroes like a player called Thorzain who on top of that got himself a brand new team to go to more tournaments and players like white-ra who uses "Special Tactics" who are considered awesome through winning many of these smaller tournaments. Hilarious comments in some tournaments of players telling a well known caster to "GET OUT". All in all so many emotional moments to live and remember with all these great online tournaments.
4. Lets say in this alternate universe the players from korea get a chance to go 1 months to a foreign country and train only for 1 tournament. Not only that but amount of players with amazingly high skill is so dense that you feel like actually winning this tournaments is quite small and I cant even compete normally in my regular tournaments because of the amount of latency. Also I feel that I can make a good living of gaming because I won some smaller tournaments in my own region and have gained quite abit of popularity there.
Well this is quite a hard choice. The upside of going to this 1 tournaments is the chance to know a great foreign culture and maybe increase my skill and the chance for 1 huge prize pool which I may reach if get through code A with all these amazing players who could be in code S and then in Code S I might reach the finals if I plough through the best players in the world who are probably more skilled than I am. I might catch up in skill though if I practice with these foreigners for about a half a year or more. Still in the back of mind lingers..... "I was so good and popular in my own region and won so many tournaments...what happend? "
I write this post not to be trolling or anything. These are thought that would run through my mind if I was one of the top players in "The rest of the world". I love watching GSL...but I enjoy our own tournaments just as much and wouldnt want to miss them for the world.
On May 27 2011 22:12 Bombmk wrote: most western players lead more wellrounded lives (the use of the word wellrounded is definately a subjective assesment, But I will stand by it). The foreigners are simply giving up more to go to Korea than the Koreans would be giving up by going to the US. On average.
This is just ignorant. I can write about how rich Korean life and culture is, and the sacrifices these gamers are making by pursuing their progamer dreams, but it would just be futile to argue about cultural differences. (I hope I don’t have to explain why. It’s so obvious that anyone bringing it up is just obviously biased and being a jerk about it.) And I don’t see why people from non-western countries can be a fan of western idols but not the other way around.
Thanks for taking the time to write this post. I think the GSL and GSTL are moving in the right direction and we must still take note that Starcraft 2 is not even one yes old yet, it still has a lot if time to grow into something very big and it is a very exciting time for esports. With people such as yourself steering the ship I feel success in the future is imminent. Thanks again!
The GOM tournaments are a big commitment in time, money and effort for foreign players, and the financial rewards are very erratic and most likely not worth it. The biggest investment and detractor is the time investment due to the format of the GOM tournaments. This isn't something to easily address, since this is also a big part of what makes the GSL special.
As it stands, the foreigners that really wanna come to compete there and are not primarily in it for the money, but for the challenge and experience and glory will come and have better conditions than ever before.
Most of the non-Korean players are not 100% professional gamers and are only finding out how to live as a professional gamer and make it work, but also have other responsibilities outside playing. Many study. Some have wives. Some have kids. Some have jobs. Quite a few have contractual obligations with sponsors and tournaments and broadcasters that conflict with GSL schedules.
So the number of candidates which can maybe have some success after coming over will be very limited, a few dozen at most. And of those few dozen most will have circumstances and priorities that prevent them from coming that GOM can do nothing about.
Great news, it would be great to see Korean teams form alliances with foreign teams. I also like it a lot that Gomtv is trying to make GSL as accesable for foreigners as possible.
Thank you for your post. We appreciate you sharing our vision. Now we hope foreigner players have the courage and sacrifice to maintain such a great international relationship. I hope they choose to.
I'm sorry if this didn't meet TL's posting requirements, but having come home from a night on the town it's all I could come up with to coherently convey my reaction to the initial OP.
Being open and honest with the community is something that should be applauded, even if the views contained are controversial, unpopular.
I'm realy happy, that GomTV is trying to do it's best to have foreigners in the GSL and GSTL. I hope you will continue having great success. Always excited to watch the GS(T)L
I will not post something about the conditions and the sacrifices you have to make to go and compete in korea (cause we have discussed enough about it). But what I realy like is how GomTV and korea is paying attention to the rest of the world and showing respect towards the players and the community
Great post! I think the mercenary idea is really cool, as well as the alliance system that this might set up. For instance, what if EG was partnered with IM, then maybe, if some IM player was already in North America, he could compete in clan wars. Idra and Nestea on the same team?!?!? Would be so awesome!!!!
As Huk said on SotG the other day, people have to decide between "easy" money and the highest level of competition. If someone would rather earn the money than become a truly great player, that's their decision.
4. Lets say in this alternate universe the players from korea get a chance to go 1 months to a foreign country and train only for 1 tournament. Not only that but amount of players with amazingly high skill is so dense that you feel like actually winning this tournaments is quite small and I cant even compete normally in my regular tournaments because of the amount of latency. Also I feel that I can make a good living of gaming because I won some smaller tournaments in my own region and have gained quite abit of popularity there.
Well this is quite a hard choice. The upside of going to this 1 tournaments is the chance to know a great foreign culture and maybe increase my skill and the chance for 1 huge prize pool which I may reach if get through code A with all these amazing players who could be in code S and then in Code S I might reach the finals if I plough through the best players in the world who are probably more skilled than I am. I might catch up in skill though if I practice with these foreigners for about a half a year or more. Still in the back of mind lingers..... "I was so good and popular in my own region and won so many tournaments...what happend? "
All your other points were pointless, and did nothing but to hide this ONE point.
This is why there is no "Problem with Korea" or there is no reason for "Korea to pay attention the West." The problem is specifically that foreigners CAN'T compete with Koreans. At least most of them can't. Not to the level to win GSL. And that is why no one wants to go to Korea. You can throw terms like "cost", "language barrier", "homesick", "culture shock" around all you want. But at the end of the day, the root of this problem is that foreigners know they aren't good enough. So instead admitting it (like some people have). Other teams like FNatic's mangement go and post slanderous material about Korea.
Omg, we are so lucky to have this guy spearhead gomtv endeavors. He has always made great ideas/decisions and this is no exception. I am so glad he is reading community threads instead of only reading news posts on fnatic's site (where they always find things to complain about).
I have decided to go to MLG to witness the enthusiasm of American fans with my own eyes.
I'm not going to columbus, but those who are, don't disappoint!!
Its people like Chae Jung Won, I want to see running these events, This post made me smile, Showing just how much GOM acctually cares about the International scene, everything has problems and faults that are hard to overcome or even impossible to fix, but trying your best to achieve something everyone can be happy with, is what matters most. <333!
I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
LOL, homesick? what an excuse. There are millions of international students, who study abroad to pursue their dream, leaving their friends and families back at home for many years. Let's be honest, as a progamer, I would go to korea If i think I'm confident enough to play at MC,MKP,Nestea level, and compete with them, but I doubt if any foreigners can compete with them consistently. and of course I don't blame people for not going to korea, but seriously.. let's not make these stupid excuses
I agree 100% and I sincerely thank you and all of GOMTV for all your efforts in making the global scene the best it can be. One could not ask for a better company and leadership in helping us get there and bridge the Korean scene with the rest of the world.
Foreigners declining invites and stuff because it isn't 100% convenient and making silly excuses makes me a little sad because it only proves to me that they don't have what it takes, the strength of will, to be the best. Being the best in a regular sport demands many, many enormous sacrifices. ESPORTS is no different.
4. Lets say in this alternate universe the players from korea get a chance to go 1 months to a foreign country and train only for 1 tournament. Not only that but amount of players with amazingly high skill is so dense that you feel like actually winning this tournaments is quite small and I cant even compete normally in my regular tournaments because of the amount of latency. Also I feel that I can make a good living of gaming because I won some smaller tournaments in my own region and have gained quite abit of popularity there.
Well this is quite a hard choice. The upside of going to this 1 tournaments is the chance to know a great foreign culture and maybe increase my skill and the chance for 1 huge prize pool which I may reach if get through code A with all these amazing players who could be in code S and then in Code S I might reach the finals if I plough through the best players in the world who are probably more skilled than I am. I might catch up in skill though if I practice with these foreigners for about a half a year or more. Still in the back of mind lingers..... "I was so good and popular in my own region and won so many tournaments...what happend? "
All your other points were pointless, and did nothing but to hide this ONE point.
This is why there is no "Problem with Korea" or there is no reason for "Korea to pay attention the West." The problem is specifically that foreigners CAN'T compete with Koreans. At least most of them can't. Not to the level to win GSL. And that is why no one wants to go to Korea. You can throw terms like "cost", "language barrier", "homesick", "culture shock" around all you want. But at the end of the day, the root of this problem is that foreigners know they aren't good enough. So instead admitting it (like some people have). Other teams like FNatic's mangement go and post slanderous material about Korea.
Well ..let me at least say why I think my other points are valid.
1. My first point my was more the history of starcraft and why koreans are so good at the moment. I think it would be quite overwhelming knowing this history and that a player might think that his chances of winning a tournament in this environment is so hard.
2.Not only showing the spreading of prize money but also to stay motivated for 1 tournament could be hard. I can imagine you can stay motivated playing starcraft 2 if you have several chances to win tournaments with decent prize over losing in the first round of only 1 big tournament and waiting a month again.
3. Showing that several tournaments gives more chances for previously lesser known players to rise to the top is fairly good point I'd say. More winners gives more chance to fame wouldnt you say?
4. Showing how the situation is right now from a player's perspective
I hope this brings more lights to my comments..If you dont agree its fine...at least I hope it brings something to this thread. For other reader..my original post was on page 12 if you are confused by this.
On May 27 2011 22:12 Bombmk wrote: most western players lead more wellrounded lives (the use of the word wellrounded is definately a subjective assesment, But I will stand by it). The foreigners are simply giving up more to go to Korea than the Koreans would be giving up by going to the US. On average.
This is just ignorant. I can write about how rich Korean life and culture is, and the sacrifices these gamers are making by pursuing their progamer dreams, but it would just be futile to argue about cultural differences. (I hope I don’t have to explain why. It’s so obvious that anyone bringing it up is just obviously biased and being a jerk about it.) And I don’t see why people from non-western countries can be a fan of western idols but not the other way around.
What part is ignorant?
You yourself bring up the sacrifices the Korean players have made. Which was basically what I said. They have cut a lot of things out of their lives for a very narrow focus. More so than foreign players do. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but logically it also follows that the western players _on average_ lead more all-encompassing lives. Can we agree on that - or am I being a jerk and biased again? (And you can save the ''if you don't know by now, I'm not going to tell you'' argument for your boyfriend, btw)
So the foreign players (that might go to Korea) have more stuff to give up in the equation, given their current situation, than their Korean counterparts who are already leading that life.
Making the Korea > US jump require less _additional_ sacrifices than the US > Korea jump for the individual player considering either. (The end total of course being the same, give or take.)
I feel like the pro-gaming community is already showing two very distinct types of players.
there is: 1.) The Care Bear. He doesn't like competition from abroad because he's afraid it will lessen his chances of winning the money. Hates it when invitees are invited to "their" tournaments fighting for what they feel is their "self-entitled" prize money.
2.) The Competitor (Naniwa). He looks forward to competition, enjoys have a challenge, and looks at it as an opportunity to improve/benchmark themselves with someone of a potentially higher caliber.
I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
Heres my thoughts on your OP. You said you are 100% confident that Marineking, MVP, MC, would come to america to play in a prestigeous lan tournament if given the opportunity. I kind of doubt that. If the situations were identical.
Your not mentioning the financial influence. The 1 month stay, the room and bored, the flights, those are all secondary to the main reason why foreigners wont come. The Money.
You need to think of it from foreign perspective. Most foreign players dont stand a chance in GSL, with a select few exceptions. However they are good enough to maintain a healthy income in the NA or EU scene because there are tons (literally hundreds) of other online tournaments and lan scenes (MLG, Dreamhack, IEM, Assembly ect ect). It is way more lucartive for a foreign player to play in the Foreign scene smaller tournies than it is for a 1 month 1 shot endevour at a big prize.
If Marineking, MC, MVP, ect had the opportunity to go to a prestigous lan in NA but had virtually no chance of winning any reasonable prize, because the foreign scene was stronger than the korean scene AND they were giving up thousands of dollars of prize money at home. I honestly kind of doubt that they would be as eager to make a committment like that as you seem confident that they would.
In the end, most esports players are poor. 1 shot at a big prize when you know for a fact you have literally zero chance of winning it is not very much incentive.
I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
Quite a bold claim, I must say.
Of course they would go, with their skill they have a good chance to win the whole thing. Just take a look at MC in Dreamhack, for example.
I love how the GSL is reaching out to the foreign community. I know there's a commercial agenda, but... *shrugs* I can only imagine how much excitement a former foreign BW pro must feel right now. Hell, I'm feeling giddy and I have no chance of ever competing over there. Having the chance to go to the land of osl/msl/proleague and to create your own chapter in the Book of Star Craft history would fill me with joy. Yes, common sense will probably keep a lot of players @home, but I'm going to cheer loudly and support those players and organizations who WILL venture out to Korea. Those Teams and players, who proudly follow in the footsteps of a Team Liquid, will get my full fan-boy support!
4. Lets say in this alternate universe the players from korea get a chance to go 1 months to a foreign country and train only for 1 tournament. Not only that but amount of players with amazingly high skill is so dense that you feel like actually winning this tournaments is quite small and I cant even compete normally in my regular tournaments because of the amount of latency. Also I feel that I can make a good living of gaming because I won some smaller tournaments in my own region and have gained quite abit of popularity there.
Well this is quite a hard choice. The upside of going to this 1 tournaments is the chance to know a great foreign culture and maybe increase my skill and the chance for 1 huge prize pool which I may reach if get through code A with all these amazing players who could be in code S and then in Code S I might reach the finals if I plough through the best players in the world who are probably more skilled than I am. I might catch up in skill though if I practice with these foreigners for about a half a year or more. Still in the back of mind lingers..... "I was so good and popular in my own region and won so many tournaments...what happend? "
All your other points were pointless, and did nothing but to hide this ONE point.
This is why there is no "Problem with Korea" or there is no reason for "Korea to pay attention the West." The problem is specifically that foreigners CAN'T compete with Koreans. At least most of them can't. Not to the level to win GSL. And that is why no one wants to go to Korea. You can throw terms like "cost", "language barrier", "homesick", "culture shock" around all you want. But at the end of the day, the root of this problem is that foreigners know they aren't good enough. So instead admitting it (like some people have). Other teams like FNatic's mangement go and post slanderous material about Korea.
Well ..let me at least say why I think my other points are valid.
1. My first point my was more the history of starcraft and why koreans are so good at the moment. I think it would be quite overwhelming knowing this history and that a player might think that his chances of winning a tournament in this environment is so hard.
2.Not only showing the spreading of prize money but also to stay motivated for 1 tournament could be hard. I can imagine you can stay motivated playing starcraft 2 if you have several chances to win tournaments with decent prize over losing in the first round of only 1 big tournament and waiting a month again.
3. Showing that several tournaments gives more chances for previously lesser known players to rise to the top is fairly good point I'd say. More winners gives more chance to fame wouldnt you say?
4. Showing how the situation is right now from a player's perspective
I hope this brings more lights to my comments..If you dont agree its fine...at least I hope it brings something to this thread. For other reader..my original post was on page 12 if you are confused by this.
Do you not notice the underlying theme of those 4 points you just made revolve around "I can't win the big tourney so I want a chance to hug smaller ones"?
I don't see why smaller tournaments are needed for a star to rise? It's only fighting against the best that you can truly prove yourself worthy. Look at the players who are rising in fame now, did they get popular by crushing GSL and getting #1? No. They got it by taking the opportunity they got to fight one of the top players, and putting up good games, and getting on the spot light that way.
I mean think about it. NBA, NFL, NHL, Premier League, Champions League. These are the leagues people notice, these are the leagues where rising stars / rising teams are noticed. You get noticed as a true potential competitor by putting yourself face to face with the toughest, and putting up a good show, and coming back the next time stronger.
I mean this is the mentality that's wrong right now with the foreigners. They want a back up plan (fine. its legitimate given its their career). But sometimes having a back up also makes someone less hungry for the grand prize.
I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
Quite a bold claim, I must say.
Of course they would go, with their skill they have a good chance to win the whole thing. Just take a look at MC in Dreamhack, for example.
Yes. Exactly this. Look at MC at Dreamhack. Look at how we treated him and then look at how much he enjoyed it and wanted to come back because of it. It speaks for itself.
On May 27 2011 21:26 videogames wrote: Foreigners just aren't good enough to win a GSL. They know this and that's the real reason why they won't go.
It's very easy to make these grand statements but what if it was your livelihood on the line? Would you take a tremendous financial risk and leave home/place to live/source of income just on the offshoot you CAN beat MC or Nestea or someone and win a GSL? Even if you're a contender most individuals are risk averse enough to not opt for travel. Stop throwing these melodramatic lines around.
May it be sensible not to take a risk? Yes.
But for the love of the lord, stop pretending that 1 month will put your livelihood on the line. What do you expect to happen, if you fall out in the first round?
Your team and sponors dropping you instantly? Your family disinherit you? Being chased tared and feathered out of town? Getting your strong hand broken as a public punishment?
Give me a break.
I am currently following a career in academia, striving for a "decent life", 1(?) wife 2 kids and that stuff. But man, even now I'd be thrilled to be given such an opportunity. Always loved travelling, seeing new places and get out of my cage once in a while.
I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
Quite a bold claim, I must say.
Of course they would go, with their skill they have a good chance to win the whole thing. Just take a look at MC in Dreamhack, for example.
Yes. Exactly this. Look at MC at Dreamhack. Look at how we treated him and then look at how much he enjoyed it and wanted to come back because of it. It speaks for itself.
Right. Let's put aside the fact that MC also attended because he figured he had a good shot at the prize money. Let's instead look at how people liked Jinro when he made it to RO4 twice and proved himself to be a true contender. You have to make yourself known if you want the Korean viewership to like you. Who else has proved as much as him aside from IdrA?
What, you expect Koreans to like randomscrub123? That's like sending some random korean scub who didn't make Code A and expect the foreign fans to cheer for him. Would they? DOUBT IT. People like MC because he's proven himself and because he's damn good at what he does.
On May 27 2011 21:26 videogames wrote: Foreigners just aren't good enough to win a GSL. They know this and that's the real reason why they won't go.
It's very easy to make these grand statements but what if it was your livelihood on the line? Would you take a tremendous financial risk and leave home/place to live/source of income just on the offshoot you CAN beat MC or Nestea or someone and win a GSL? Even if you're a contender most individuals are risk averse enough to not opt for travel. Stop throwing these melodramatic lines around.
May it be sensible not to take a risk? Yes.
But for the love of the lord, stop pretending that 1 month will put your livelihood on the line. What do you expect to happen, if you fall out in the first round?
Your team and sponors dropping you instantly? Your family disinherit you? Being chased tared and feathered out of town? Getting your strong hand broken as a public punishment?
Give me a break.
I am currently following a career in academia, striving for a "decent life", 1(?) wife 2 kids and that stuff. But man, even now I'd be thrilled to be given such an opportunity. Always loved travelling, seeing new places and get out of my cage once in a while.
No one EXPECTS them to want to go to Korea. I think what people are complaining about is that people are complaining it is KOREAs fault when it is clearly the fault of the gamer themselves. If they feel they aren't good enough fine, thats okay! No one blames you for being honest. Don't just go and put the blame on Korea like FNatic has done TWICE now.
I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
Heres my thoughts on your OP. You said you are 100% confident that Marineking, MVP, MC, would come to america to play in a prestigeous lan tournament if given the opportunity. I kind of doubt that. If the situations were identical.
Your not mentioning the financial influence. The 1 month stay, the room and bored, the flights, those are all secondary to the main reason why foreigners wont come. The Money.
You need to think of it from foreign perspective. Most foreign players dont stand a chance in GSL, with a select few exceptions. However they are good enough to maintain a healthy income in the NA or EU scene because there are tons (literally hundreds) of other online tournaments and lan scenes (MLG, Dreamhack, IEM, Assembly ect ect). It is way more lucartive for a foreign player to play in the Foreign scene smaller tournies than it is for a 1 month 1 shot endevour at a big prize.
If Marineking, MC, MVP, ect had the opportunity to go to a prestigous lan in NA but had virtually no chance of winning any reasonable prize, because the foreign scene was stronger than the korean scene AND they were giving up thousands of dollars of prize money at home. I honestly kind of doubt that they would be as eager to make a committment like that as you seem confident that they would.
In the end, most esports players are poor. 1 shot at a big prize when you know for a fact you have literally zero chance of winning it is not very much incentive.
Losing in the round of 32 in code S is the same prizemoney as 4th place at MLG, winning in r32 code S is almost the same as 4th place at Dreamhack
On May 28 2011 00:24 Darpa wrote: Your not mentioning the financial influence. The 1 month stay, the room and bored, the flights, those are all secondary to the main reason why foreigners wont come. The Money.
You need to think of it from foreign perspective. Most foreign players dont stand a chance in GSL, with a select few exceptions. However they are good enough to maintain a healthy income in the NA or EU scene because there are tons (literally hundreds) of other online tournaments and lan scenes (MLG, Dreamhack, IEM, Assembly ect ect). It is way more lucartive for a foreign player to play in the Foreign scene smaller tournies than it is for a 1 month 1 shot endevour at a big prize.
If Marineking, MC, MVP, ect had the opportunity to go to a prestigous lan in NA but had virtually no chance of winning any reasonable prize, because the foreign scene was stronger than the korean scene AND they were giving up thousands of dollars of prize money at home. I honestly kind of doubt that they would be as eager to make a committment like that as you seem confident that they would.
In the end, most esports players are poor. 1 shot at a big prize when you know for a fact you have literally zero chance of winning it is not very much incentive.
First off all thanks GOM for really showing intrest in this subject.
I find it quite controversial when a lot of people make the claim that the money is better outside of korea. According to http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ stats top 10 earnings are 9 / 10 people in GSL, top 20 earnings has only 6 foreigners of which Jinro's wins are mainly from the GSL and some of Idra's from GSL afaik. Even after the top 20 places, the next 30 places have 14 / 30 koreans and the around 50 % koreans 50 % foreigners split continues after that too.
In my eyes it seems that a lot of people forget that players who are not in Code S finals get prize money too, or got. I'm not really sure how much the prize distribution changed after the GSL open seasons but nevertheless korean players have made decent amount of money from prizes. Sure the general skill level might be higher in korea, but just "placing decent in Code S" gives you a nice reward. Most of the foreigner online events split the prize pool to only the top 3-4 and the amount of players actually winning the big online tournaments is quite small. I'd imagine that the seed directly into Code S from MLG victory is quite nice chance for extra earnings.
I just think that this is one aspect that is often neglected when discussing this topic. Sorry if my info is outdated.
GSL clearly cares and talked with the foreigner teams and managers and understands the problems and is trying to solve them!
I have bought some seasons of GSL like i did for this super tournament because I think you guys do a wonderfull job, not just the show, tastosis, the skill level etc.. Thanks so much for you harwork and keep improving!
I'm so impressed with how much effort GSL puts into accommodating foreign players. Letting them participate in GSTL is very intriguing, but 2 months is a bit of a commitment. Thats not to say however that people will not come, being able to participate in GSL and now on top of that GSTL is huge and could be enough of an incentive for pros to commit to moving to korea. I'm sure everyone understands that there is so much that you can do, seeing as to how hard you are striving to accommodate to the foreigners needs. However I do think that one of the other problems that you did not list is that the players did not have enough warning ahead of time. If you invited the players 2 or 3 months ahead of time then I'm fairly sure that more would have come to the Super Tournament. One of the other problems in some pros eyes are that there are so many more tournaments in the West that are very short and provide a reasonable amount of money whereas GSL is a bit of a risk to move there for one month and IF you do well then you can get a large sum. But all these other tournaments in the west add up to be a large sum as well and the players get more chances between tournament to tournament. But now having foreigners participate in GSTL as well could change things, we will see!
Really great response. When I read Xeris' post it felt like it was more personal opinions of his team and basically lack of motivation/desire, more than real restrictions that all players feel. I'm glad this response has come out, as it is exactly what was needed.
Thank you Chae Jung Won and GOMTV for being so accommodating to foreigners and for creating such a spectacular tournament!
I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
Quite a bold claim, I must say.
Of course they would go, with their skill they have a good chance to win the whole thing. Just take a look at MC in Dreamhack, for example.
So basically what you are saying is that foreigners don't have the skill to have a good chance to win GSL?
I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
Quite a bold claim, I must say.
Of course they would go, with their skill they have a good chance to win the whole thing. Just take a look at MC in Dreamhack, for example.
So basically what you are saying is that foreigners don't have the skill to have a good chance to win GSL?
Yes, I thought that was the bottom line of everything? If you have the skill to advance through Code A and place high in the GSL, the stay in Korea is more than worth it. However if you don't think you can accomplish that, then staying outside Korea is a wiser choice.
Maybe the Koreans just need to attend more big events outside Korea.
I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
Quite a bold claim, I must say.
Of course they would go, with their skill they have a good chance to win the whole thing. Just take a look at MC in Dreamhack, for example.
But you see, the problem with that example is that if it was truly a reverse world, the skill levels would be equivalently turned around there. Why else would it be their dream? And then those frequent online tournaments start looking a lot better.
Not saying it shoots down the example, but its rather bad and does not support a 100% confidence level imho.
But yeah, if all that was switched was the tournament styles and the prize money, they very likely would go.
Theres nothing wrong with acknowleding that the skill level in GSL makes competing there, even for the very best foreigners, an outside shot at glory that they do not feel measures up to the the cost. "The tournament is worth the effort" is a highly subjective view. Which should be clear from the fact that that not everyone agrees.
And no player would be a chicken or a coward for coming to that conclusion - or whatever people are hinting at them being in this thread. Theres tons of good reasons for not making the required sacrifices.
Would love to see more try. But cannot fault them if they don't, really.
I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
Quite a bold claim, I must say.
Of course they would go, with their skill they have a good chance to win the whole thing. Just take a look at MC in Dreamhack, for example.
So basically what you are saying is that foreigners don't have the skill to have a good chance to win GSL?
Yes, I thought that was the bottom line of everything? If you have the skill to advance through Code A and place high in the GSL, the stay in Korea is more than worth it. However if you don't think you can accomplish that, then staying outside Korea is a wiser choice.
Maybe the Koreans just need to attend more big events outside Korea.
Yes. This is what needs to happen. Koreans need to participate in foreigner events more and take their prize money so there's no more bullshit excuses. Too bad online is too laggy to take all of that prize money as well.
Thank you so much for everything you have done and continue to do for the foreign community as well as the SC2 scene in Korea.
But please understand that rejection of an invitation to play in a month long or longer tournament in Korea which a foreigner likely has very little chance of winning is not an attack or rejection of your country or your company. It is a selfish reason that they say "I do not think I can beat sixty other top-level Koreans and I do not have the money to travel back and forth to participate in local tournaments during my stay in Korea."
It is simply a business decision from most players because they are not confident enough in their skills and they feel that they will perform better, be more comfortable and likely profit more when all things are considered.
If travel to and from Korea was not so expensive it would likely not be as much of an issue. I think that many people are not completely clear on the changes GOMtv has made to the schedule to be much more accommodating to players' wishes to play in multiple tournaments, but this isn't exactly a solution when one would have to travel back and forth from Korea to Europe or North America two or three times during the course of the GSL Super Tournament to play in the local tournaments they also wish to participate in. Nobody is asking GOMtv to try to solve this problem, it is a problem that arises from having too much competitive SC2 going on in the world at this time.
There are some players who truly wish to become the best, and some players who want to play just to win money. If going to Korea reduces someone's chance of winning money or reduces the potential amount of money they can earn in that time period, then some players are going to decline. It is not overly complicated.
Copied from the other thread, for all the people discussing prize money in Korea vs the rest of the world:
"I have seen people time and again claiming that there is more money to be made in NA/EU in total compared to Korea without checking or citing any numbers. I did some rough calculations based on TL tournament database (Disclaimer: I know it is the not comprehensive database but it does account for most of the huge tournaments.) Here is the breakup for 2011 based on TL tournament database.
Premier Tournaments (Jan-Jun Code A to Dreamhack Summer) (Wiki2)Premier Tournaments Korean individual events: ~$685,000 NA/EU individual events: ~$292,000 (Note, you can include IGN PL S2 $50,000 for July as well since it is listed there but then GSL July prize pool also needs to be included which will further increase the difference)
Major Tournaments (Wiki2)Major Tournaments World ~ $85,000 (euros/pounds roughly converted to dollars)
Adding both up Korea : ~$685,000 World : ~$377,000
Note: You will need ~308 $1000 weekly tourneys or ~1540 $200 weekly tournaments to make up the balance. I doubt there have been that many scale tournaments to make up the difference.
Conclusion: Even though the prize-pools are much more top heavy in Korea, the total prize pool in Korea is in fact higher than the rest of the world combined (possibly even after talking the countless smaller tournaments into account).
For team tournaments as well(2011): (Wiki2)Team Tournaments Korea : ~$51,000 Rest of World: ~$32,000
Some food for thought If you can barely maintain Code S status, i.e. Ro32 each season and never progressing beyond that, you will make $1400 a month which is $5600 total (4 seasons).
According to Prize Money Rank, that will put you in the ~Top 60 prize ranking for this year. Note, a lot of the people above you will still be Koreans. It seems people like to put too much emphasis on small scale tournaments in EU/NA but the amount of competition in these too also do not allow you to make as much as you could by just staying in Top32 Code S and not progressing any time beyond it."
It would be nice if players could say that rather than, "well, there are just numerous competitions like IPL, MLG, and NASL I would have to miss out on. So this is Gom's fault they need to put more money on the line".
I don't like to echo what's been said but I do want to commend Mr. Chae to come forward and reply to the concerns of international fans. It may not fully solve all the issues the e-sport fans outside of Korea have presented but at least both sides are taking strides into a suitable compromise. Thanks to this have communication between a high level league and the Western community. It's with mature discussions like this that can help bridge the global scene.
I think there is a definite disadvantage for players to go to Korea at the moment. Surmising from the last several weeks, personal commitment and the separating yourself from the other tournaments and thus the other money available is the biggest crux of the opposition to moving to Korea. For some reason the explosive growth of the Starcraft 2 scene in the rest of the world has not been matched in Korea. Hopefully due to the resolution between Kespa and Blizzard we may see more Starcraft 2 tournaments spring up in Korea. With additional tournaments that do not conflict with GSL participation, I believe more foreign players can get the most out of their experience by moving to Korea. Not all foreign players are willing to take the risk of competing in the Korean scene because like Thorzain has said, they want to better themselves before going to Korea to prove themselves. But during the time of bettering themselves, they also need a scene to help provide the incentive of continuing their progaming and that is the key advantage the Western scene is providing at the moment - more tournaments cultivating new talent. However, GOMtv has already done a lot in the accommodation of foreigners who want to go to Korea. Unless they're willing and able to start up single week or bi weekly tournaments ontop of their GSL and GSTL, I don't see how they can offer more money to satisfy players. I think it all comes down to how the Korean e-sports scene decides to expand beyond the GSL.
Also big props to Mr. Chae for heading over to MLG Columbus, I hope you have a great time. Like I told MMA at GSTL, you MUST try a Denny's breakfast. Do it.
Wow! Incredible post sir, I just have to say that I supremely appreciate the time you took to respond to people's comments and I'm mighty impressed
I wonder what the big team announcement is? I hope it's something along the lines of getting 6 foreign teams in the GSTL and making it a simple 16 team tourney, that would be pretty big
I'm really glad Chae Jung Won took the time to clear everything up. Great news, it would be cool to see someone like thorzain mercenary for a team like slayers XD
great things happening at gsl! can't wait to see these changes ^^
I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you
Interesting. FXO? Can't be TL or EG (or is it?). Fnatic maybe? ARGH can't wait for that announcement ^^
it's gotta be dignitas. naniwa has talked about spending time on korea, select *is* korean and I think sjow mentioned it in the past at some point. i couldn't see it being any other team.
i was thinking the same thing, and that is, in my mind, the best team that could go, so i really hope so!
i also thought sixjax was a possibility, just because artosis might want to shed some light on his team... but that seems a bit early.
On May 28 2011 01:03 Ruccola wrote:Some food for thought If you can barely maintain Code S status, i.e. Ro32 each season and never progressing beyond that, you will make $1400 a month which is $5600 total (4 seasons).
AND as a barely Code S player in Korea, u get 5 times stream viewers and lesson takers than u would if u were making it big in EU/NA tourneys. which equals even more money.
i think our players are liars who are affraid to admit they cant handle the competition, so they make excuses.
On May 27 2011 22:12 Bombmk wrote: most western players lead more wellrounded lives (the use of the word wellrounded is definately a subjective assesment, But I will stand by it). The foreigners are simply giving up more to go to Korea than the Koreans would be giving up by going to the US. On average.
This is just ignorant. I can write about how rich Korean life and culture is, and the sacrifices these gamers are making by pursuing their progamer dreams, but it would just be futile to argue about cultural differences. (I hope I don’t have to explain why. It’s so obvious that anyone bringing it up is just obviously biased and being a jerk about it.) And I don’t see why people from non-western countries can be a fan of western idols but not the other way around.
What part is ignorant?
You yourself bring up the sacrifices the Korean players have made. Which was basically what I said. They have cut a lot of things out of their lives for a very narrow focus. More so than foreign players do. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but logically it also follows that the western players _on average_ lead more all-encompassing lives. Can we agree on that - or am I being a jerk and biased again? (And you can save the ''if you don't know by now, I'm not going to tell you'' argument for your boyfriend, btw)
So the foreign players (that might go to Korea) have more stuff to give up in the equation, given their current situation, than their Korean counterparts who are already leading that life.
Making the Korea > US jump require less _additional_ sacrifices than the US > Korea jump for the individual player considering either. (The end total of course being the same, give or take.)
As far as I can tell thats just logical?
Very clever. The part that was ignorant was assuming a westerner would have more to sacrifice than a Korean in becoming a progamer and living in a foreign country. Maybe that wasn’t really your point at all and I overacted and the perceived bias against non-westerners wasn’t there. My last statement still stands though.
This man has convinced me to buy more and more GSL season tickets (already got the Super tournament one). Forget the NASL, IPL, MLG, IEM, etc. Korea is where the real pros play.
Thank you for taking the time to post here, we really appreciate it.
I am looking forward to the changes to the GSTL, hopefully they will increase foreigner participation. I'm not sure if they will work, but I appreciate that GSL is making an effort.
I think the main problem that foreigners have with the MLG-GSL exchange program is the prize pool distribution. Winning Code A is only $1400, which is barely enough to cover the round trip flight to Korea. It also requires staying in Korea for 1-2 months, which makes it difficult to participate in froreign tournaments where foreigners can win much more than $1400 in a month. In comparision, MLG only requires a 3 days in the US, and has a $5000 prize for winning the tournament.
Another thing to consider is tournament format. MLG has group stage play, which means that if you're a good player you don't need to worry about getting eliminated due to bad luck. However in GSL Code A you can be pitted against someone like MVP or Dongraegu in the first round, and unless you get really lucky you go home with next to nothing.
awesome read! I totally appreciate this post for letting us know the korean side of things for once, and I know many of us do! hope to hear more from you!
I think the best comparison is MLB and Japanese professional baseball.
MLB is the pinnacle of baseball of the world. It has the highest salaries, the best players, etc. Japanese baseball has some great players, but it's the equivilent of AAA baseball. Now a few japanese players do come over, such as ichiro suzuki, who is by far the best hitter hitting #1 in the lineup, but after that, it's very rare. The problem is that the average professional in Japan is good, but will most likely play a bench position at best in the MLB. There is a language barrier as well.
So Japanese players must decide 1. Do I play in Japan, have tons of fans in an environment I'm comfortable in, and accept that I won't get to play in the MLB. 2. Spend a few years in Minor League baseball in the states and try to get into a starting position on an mlb team, not know the language, and be in an unfamiliar environment.
This decision will have a lot to do with money, but I would say that a player would need a lot of extra money in order to make decision #2.
A similar thing for foreigners
1. Do I go to GSL code A and practice all day in an attempt to get into the top 32 so I can make a moderate salary in a place where i'm unfamiliar with the language, environment, etc? 2. Do I participate in foreign tournaments, live in a comfortable place, and choose my own pace for practicing?
This decision is tough. Initially GSL was the only big thing. Tons of foreigners tried out. Only 3, Idra, jinro and huk have had any success and it's been limited at best. Idra already spent years in korea on scbw, so his decision to come back to the states was probably related more to an environmental change. Huk's reason, same as Naniwa, is to the best player there ever was and they both would be willing to spend whatever it takes, which is why for them, decision #1 is no problem, but most foreign pros don't believe they are good enough yet and that the cost of moving to korea (language barrier, environment, etc) is not worth it.
So, I have a few suggestions to make the decision to move to korea move valuable.
1. No team house. The team house is a great idea, but it encourages isolation. We need integration. Ogs and teamliquid formed a partnership of their own accord, but I think the other teams will need a little more encouragement. How about something like this instead: When a foreign player moves from the states, that a team can choose to partner with his foreign team. GomTV should pay for living expenses for 3 months for that player. In exchange, the korean team gets a player in a code A spot (improving their odds of being in gstl) and that the foreign team agrees to provide temporary accommodations for a korean player who wishes to travel abroad. If MC comes to the US, i'm sure teamliquid would love to share an hotel room for an event like MLG.
2. Korean language training. One of the cheapest, but most valuable things Gom can do is to provide language training. Living in a house full of koreans will help, but formal training would solidify things more. Not everyone has the desire to learn korean, but if you provide it for free, i'm sure more would take it up.
3. Encourage a cultural experience. Teamliquid was fortunate to be with ogs and the players really get to experience a lot of korean culture, but players who are in the foreigner house simply feel like nothing is different for them except they have difficulty going out. GomTV should sponser BIWEEKLY events for the players. Things like, beach day, or biking day, or rollar coaster day etc. It makes the league more fun for the players.
4. Plan 3 months ahead. Set the GSL schedule in stone for at least 3 months at a time. This allows other tournaments to schedule their competitions based on that.
5. Raise the minimum payout for Code S players each month to $2000 USD. It's much harder for a player to get a sponsorship if they are only playing in korea. English speaking sponsers would rather focus on english tournaments so this is to make up for the loss of potential sponsors.
I think a lot of this is possible, but expensive. Maybe do these things slowly. I think the team integration part is the most important though.
On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote: Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option'. Also, do the prizes from GSTL go to the team themselves or the players? Would foreigners get equal prizemoney to the original players?
Trying to follow your favourite foreigner/team could also cause issues especially if players switch teams each time they go over to participate.
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
This. The OP doesn't actually address the specific issues that are creating this problem in the first place. His "backward universe" analogy just creates a circular argument and he mentions nothing about the language, lifestyle, the length/potential profitability of the tournament and whatnot. There is just no substance to his argument. So which concerns exactly from the foreigners do you not understand?
I'm terribly sorry that the rest of the world out there doesn't accommodate to all ur perceived needs. For someone like you, I absolutely recommend you never leave your own country because surely the strangeness and savagery of foreign lands will be too much for your gentle heart to bear.
Personally I had a very international up bringing and education, moving nearly every two years and having the opportunity to live in places such as China, Korea, Southeast Asia, USA, Canada, Italy, France, Russia, etc. Now let me summarize that experience for you, the world is a big fucking place and you are not at the center of it. Most of the interesting and noteworthy people I meet throughout my travels are reaching out however, they are oftentimes traveling themselves, learning new languages, connecting to others from different cultures, expanding their horizons, exploring their dreams. For those people, they realize that the world is a rich field waiting to be harvested and that each new country represents a new opportunity to expand your mind and develop your career. Gom isn't just giving people a chance to win money in a game, it's also giving people a chance to live beyond their own borders and shatter those tiny little mental barriers they have imagined up for themselves.
Language differences? Lifestyle differences? These differences are not drawbacks you backwards hillbilly, these differences represent a opportunity for personal and professional growth. These differences are the your ADVANTAGES, if u have the ability to harness them properly. So don't be weak, step out of your comfort zone, learn, adapt, overcome, and learn humility.
I work in a international firm in Shanghai now and everyday I work with global clients attempting to get more global. I work with talented people from around the world, all speaking multiple languages and skilled in bridging mutiple cultures. The world is changing rapidly, I suggest you start looking outward before you get left behind.
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
Fame + Cash solves. I feel the same.
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: However, Korean teams are willing to form alliance or partnership with foreign teams and they have stated that they will be happy to accept if there is any foreign team or player willing to join force. In fact Korean teams are very eager to recruit able foreign players.
Right now i'm dreaming of a GSTL with teams like oGs-TL, Slayers-mouz, ST-fnatic, IM-EG and so on :d
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: I have provided “opportunity” through “system”, and “opportunity” is all that I can provide. Creating “results” is not my job but up to the players themselves, through their will and amount of practice.
Mr.Chae Jung Won, i love you.
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: Many of things that are happening now in e-sports are changes that never happened in past 10 years. I’m sure that you too feel that e-sports is evolving rapidly.
i really like this post, i think the GSL is doing a great job and the effort they are putting into making it truly a global tournament is great to see. I really hope that more foreigners will take the many opportunities GSL is offering.
On May 28 2011 01:10 darksage78 wrote: Also big props to Mr. Chae for heading over to MLG Columbus, I hope you have a great time. Like I told MMA at GSTL, you MUST try a Denny's breakfast. Do it.
GOM is absolutely not at fault for foreigners wanting to go to Korea and Mr. Won is absolutely right about what he said. The issue isn't GOM the issue is with the Korean scene being too insular and the opportunity cost of going to Korea being too small as compared to playing in NA or Europe in showmatches or online tournaments.
That's just the reality with the relatively small amount of non-gsl tournaments in Korea as well as latency issues effectively preventing players from competing in foreign tournaments. In the future with more sponsorships this could absolutely change as sponsors could salary and foot the bill for their players to play in Korea because it would be on effectively the largest stage but that scene hasn't evolved yet.
I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you
Interesting. FXO? Can't be TL or EG (or is it?). Fnatic maybe? ARGH can't wait for that announcement ^^
it's gotta be dignitas. naniwa has talked about spending time on korea, select *is* korean and I think sjow mentioned it in the past at some point. i couldn't see it being any other team.
i was thinking the same thing, and that is, in my mind, the best team that could go, so i really hope so!
i also thought sixjax was a possibility, just because artosis might want to shed some light on his team... but that seems a bit early.
Gonna be Fnatic (They have been expressing a want to go to Korea for so long, especially TT1) or Dignitas as Naniwa is going over there, hes just waiting for details to be finalized.
On May 28 2011 01:17 kNightLite wrote: Thank you for taking the time to post here, we really appreciate it.
I am looking forward to the changes to the GSTL, hopefully they will increase foreigner participation. I'm not sure if they will work, but I appreciate that GSL is making an effort.
I think the main problem that foreigners have with the MLG-GSL exchange program is the prize pool distribution. Winning Code A is only $1400, which is barely enough to cover the round trip flight to Korea. It also requires staying in Korea for 1-2 months, which makes it difficult to participate in froreign tournaments where foreigners can win much more than $1400 in a month. In comparision, MLG only requires a 3 days in the US, and has a $5000 prize for winning the tournament.
Another thing to consider is tournament format. MLG has group stage play, which means that if you're a good player you don't need to worry about getting eliminated due to bad luck. However in GSL Code A you can be pitted against someone like MVP or Dongraegu in the first round, and unless you get really lucky you go home with next to nothing.
Code A is like open bracket where there is no group play and Pool play is like Code S with group stage, same thing?? except that there's a qualifier for Code A.
and why do you assume that people can win much more in NA/EU tournaments? there are probably more players there overall compared to KR so I think the chances are equal. Winning any tournament won't be like a one-two punch, that your sure to win.
I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
Quite a bold claim, I must say.
Of course they would go, with their skill they have a good chance to win the whole thing. Just take a look at MC in Dreamhack, for example.
Yes. Exactly this. Look at MC at Dreamhack. Look at how we treated him and then look at how much he enjoyed it and wanted to come back because of it. It speaks for itself.
1) He was invited 2) He was flown over 3) I don't see any Koreans flying over for MLG on their own. Placing high in each event qualifies you for they grand finals which has quite a large prize too. We have EU players already participating in MLG events. There is no excuse. It goes both ways. Heck, there are other tournaments they can play in if they're in it for the long haul. It'd be "easy money" right? Why don't Koreans play in MLG? The same reason why some players don't want to go to Korea.
Most Koreans who are flown over are only there for a weekend or so. I doubt many would stay for an entire MLG season which is the NA equivalent of grinding through Code A for months.
On May 28 2011 01:19 darmousseh wrote: 1. No team house. The team house is a great idea, but it encourages isolation. We need integration. Ogs and teamliquid formed a partnership of their own accord, but I think the other teams will need a little more encouragement. How about something like this instead: When a foreign player moves from the states, that a team can choose to partner with his foreign team. GomTV should pay for living expenses for 3 months for that player. In exchange, the korean team gets a player in a code A spot (improving their odds of being in gstl) and that the foreign team agrees to provide temporary accommodations for a korean player who wishes to travel abroad. If MC comes to the US, i'm sure teamliquid would love to share an hotel room for an event like MLG.
2. Korean language training. One of the cheapest, but most valuable things Gom can do is to provide language training. Living in a house full of koreans will help, but formal training would solidify things more. Not everyone has the desire to learn korean, but if you provide it for free, i'm sure more would take it up.
think about what you're saying, buddy, you're asking GOM to give a foreigner a holiday in korea with free korean lessons to boot. pay for living expenses? seriously?
Thanks for the post, Mr. Chae. you've put so much into this, I don't think there's really much else you can do while still being fair. At some point it's up to the players themselves to make the decision.
anyway here's a picture I found on playxp of JungWon during his playing days:
from what i've heard / understand is that the foreign players feel like its a huge commitment to go to korea because of the fact that they will have to miss out on all of the online tournaments due to lag and timezones. One of these problems can easily be fixed by LAN (lol) the other can be "fixed" by the players commitment to play on the highest level.
If SC2 had LAN i think you will see more people going to gsl to get that experiance esp. now that you opened the door to get mercd by a korean team for practice. Cause i do feel that most if not all players think that going to korea will help you evolve as a player, but the fact that they will be missing out on all of the weekly tournaments / clan leagues of the foreign scene makes it not worth the investment to evolve as player.
So far only a few foreigners have tried going to korea to get that experience and those are the players that want to put themself as a player on a higher level than their income / stability. I hope that once lan gets added and all the foreigners see that you can still play weekly cups / assist your team in clan leagues they will make the jump to Korea.
However until this happens the options you provided should be great incentive for the doubters among the foreign gamers and i cant wait to see them play in a booth at the GSL!
I absolutely love that GOM cares deeply about this and has done so much to accommodate foreigners. It's really unfortunate there are so many issues beyond their control, like the latency issues that supposedly hampers a Korean-based player from results in online tournaments.
Some online tournament results and the sheer explosion of events outside Korea I think has made Korea not as significant as it was during the BW days.
I don't think there are any legitimate excuses for turning down a Code S spot. You and your team doesn't even have to spend any money for such a great opportunity. Lose in the first round then come home, you don't miss anything. Make it far and you'll easily win enough money and gain enough prestige to justify missing a few foreigner tourneys.
If Code A didn't last so long, then there would truly be no excuse left. There should be more player movement between Code S and A, and with a shorter qualification period, foreigners would have much greater incentive to compete.
Thanks for you honest response. Honestly, I agree with you in a lot of ways -- if there was in fact a tournament in the US, for instance, with GSL's prize pool then many Koreans would come here to play for a month. I was really surprised more foreigners didn't opt to go. I think what happened was some were not going and so all decided against it because of the lack of practice partners, funds to travel there, and time to dedicate to the GSL Super Tournament. I think in time, things will smooth out and you will see more foreigners entering it.
I think one other thing you could have done was the same qualifier-type experiment as the GSL World Championship. That way you would have new players around the world who would love to play in GSL but have had no avenue for it yet. I think many of the players who were invited probably feel that they were just there for an extended amount of time and have focused back on European/American tournaments. If you managed to do tryouts for other foreign players, however, I think you would've seen more foreigners come to try out the GSL experience. Just a thought.
Don't get discouraged though -- we are certainly about to see a lot more foreigners in GSL. I think more than anything this was a timing problem and most of the invited players already had commitments to deal with and couldn't spend a month in Korea. There are hundreds of other foreigners who would've jumped at the opportunity though, especially if they haven't had a chance to go to Korea to play before. While the players we saw in the World Championship are SOME of the best foreigners in the world, I would say there's many others that are just as good or better than those that were there so it's not like those were the only foreigners to invite.
Good luck, and keep doing your best to get foreigners over there. They will come, I assure you. If anything, the prize pool is undeniably huge for any player and there isn't a foreigner on the scene who doesn't want to test their skills against the best Korea has to offer.
I see the opportunity to make a reliable VPN from Korean to Western world. If Korean players can play lag freely on NA/EU server, they can enter most of current open tournaments and take all the price pool away. Then those who claim that they just cant go to Korean since they will lose their lifestyle/friends/training environment will lose everything Come on Korean fighters, blow all those lazy western so called starcraft pros away, they dont deserve to be in the history of starcraft!
Cool, this strongly resembles what I suggested in the previous topic:
"1) Set a rule that requires GSL teams to have at least X (maybe 2) foreigners. This has been done in sports before and, while I am not sure GSL teams would be happy about it, might just work.
2) Set a rule that requires GSL teams to have a foreign team as a GSL partner, OGS-TLAF style. Which is a possibly more palatable version of option 1)."
Maybe someone at GomTV read it and thought it was smart! (yeah ok... A man can dream though!)
I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all.
Absolutely amazing changes to the Team League. Getting to see Jinro and HuK play for OGS will be awesome.
I love the way GOMTV is constantly trying to identify problems and come up with solutions. I had let my subscription wane in the past few months (money problems), but now I will resubscribe for next season.
Wow, I'm really impressed (but not surprised) with how much GOM is stretching itself to be more acceptive of foreigners. Obviously if they were rigid, less would watch them, and more would watch NASL, but none the less I am happy that they are trying.
I really am excited to see Korean teams with "foreign mercenaries" hahaha.
I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
Quite a bold claim, I must say.
Of course they would go, with their skill they have a good chance to win the whole thing. Just take a look at MC in Dreamhack, for example.
Yes. Exactly this. Look at MC at Dreamhack. Look at how we treated him and then look at how much he enjoyed it and wanted to come back because of it. It speaks for itself.
1) He was invited 2) He was flown over 3) I don't see any Koreans flying over for MLG on their own. Placing high in each event qualifies you for they grand finals which has quite a large prize too. We have EU players already participating in MLG events. There is no excuse. It goes both ways. Heck, there are other tournaments they can play in if they're in it for the long haul. It'd be "easy money" right? Why don't Koreans play in MLG? The same reason why some players don't want to go to Korea.
Most Koreans who are flown over are only there for a weekend or so. I doubt many would stay for an entire MLG season which is the NA equivalent of grinding through Code A for months.
What? You're missing the point. The point was that he's coming back and participating in foreign events all the time now. Koreans are playing in MLG. Koreans played in IEM. Koreans played in Dreamhack winter. If we had a real foreigner league equivalent of GSL they sure as hell would play in it too, I can't believe anyone is arguing that when everything suggests otherwise. At least when it concerns the top players that have a great shot at taking it all.
On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote: I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all.
i disagree that there's more money to be made outside of korea. i think that's only true if you don't have a chance at winning the GSL, or you can't expect to stay in code A, which those players all do. http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ for reference
Glad to see a response from GOMtv. I think this was necessary. GOM has been getting a lot of slack recently. Although I think it's probably a good idea for many foreign players to stay in NA/EU right now that doesnt mean that GSL is a bad tournament.
I have some suggestions for solutions/improvements for GOMtv: - mini off-season tournaments that are much shorter with smaller prize pools. Run inbetween the code S/Code A/ Tournaments. These tournaments would be designed to get foreigners to come over. - Foreigner showmatches. Designed to introduce Koreans to more foreign SC players. - More Invitationals like the world championships. - an international tournament held outside of Korea but broadcasted in Korea and elsewhere.
These are just brainstormed ideas. There are concerns/difficulties with each. But I think all of the ideas are at the very least feasible
Thank You for the great post. SC2 and e-sports in general are evovling at an incredible pace right now, more that I am guessing most people thought was possible. I hope everyday at the major tournaments can keep up and keep imporving (lookinsg at you IPL, NASL, GSL, MLG, TSL, Dreamhack, etc.) and I am looking for bigger and better inter-national tournaments in the future.
Side note, I also think Blizzard needs to step up as well to provide these tournies with a lag free environment, even if it is a tourny only LAN, or dedicated connections for rent. Come up with somthing.
You are a visionary and an amazing person!!! Thanks so much for all you've done for e-Sports! The new announcements make me sooo excited.
Just a few notes on the stuff about foreigners declining the opportunity to come to Korea, however.
1) I think part of the misunderstanding is due to a culture barrier. In his post, Mr. Chae states that if you are good, you should be willing to put everything on the line, deal with language barriers, etc., to compete. In the US, at least, e-Sports are thought of very differently than they are in Korea. I'm not sure how to articulate the difference however. In America, being a progamer isn't something that is generally aspired to. It is not considered the world's best job by that many people. Therefore, progaming is not some amazing pinnacle of human existence that people won't give up simply because it is an enviable position. Unlike commonly wished-for opportunities in the US (stock broker, investment banker, other rich-people jobs, baseball player), the job is not the end goal. If a progamer isn't enjoying themselves, then they may very well decide to give up gaming. With this in mind, it may seem a little bit more understandable why a progamer might decline a trip to Korea. The desire to enjoy being a progamer outweighs the appeal of being a GSL Champion.
2) This one is very simple. Mr. Chae said something along the lines of, "Imagine if MC was invited to a LAN event in the US. He would give everything up to go and win". But that's the thing. MC would have a very good chance of winning. Not many foreigner players offered invites would honestly say they thought they had a good chance of winning a Korean tournament. Travelling to Korea to lose is probably less appealing to some of the less-involved gamer than travelling to the US to win.
I still think that the prize pool and time commitment differences between MLG and the GSL Code A are far too large for the exchange to be considered equal, I can see that if the situation was reversed the Korean pros wouldn't want to come to the US and compete in a very difficult tournament for very little money/fame whilst not being able to compete in any other tournaments (you still could, but it would be much more difficult and you'd be at a disadvantage).
Basically they get to come to MLG and play a few games over a few days and have a very good chance at winning 5k, whereas the players that chose to participate in the GSL have to move to Korea for a month, compete in a massive tournament with tons of players, play waay more games against stronger opponents just for a shot at a smaller prize pool. To me, the "fame" factor doesn't seem to be anywhere near the cost of not being able to compete in any of the NA/EU lan/online events
Think of it this way. Let’s assume that there is backward universe; There is LAN tournament with equivalent size and prize pool as GSL in USA and tournaments in Korea are mostly online. If MVP, MC, Nestea and MKP were to be invited to States to participate in LAN tournament for a month(and they will be provided a place to sleep and practice like GOMTV is providing now), would they decide to go to US? I am 100% confident that they would go.
I do not think that they would go to (if we are still using this backwards world) the US because when they get there they would be playing essentially a qualifier for the GSL, for $1500(it's about that right?) and when they go they cannot play any other of the larger and more frequent tournaments that exist in Korea because of the latency (and it's part of the rules?) and I don't think that is worth forsaking for them.
There is a simple solution to this, talk to the foreign players about why they decided not to go to the supertournament and how GSL can improve in order to make it more attractive to go to Korea. Foreign tournaments should obviously do this with Korean players aswell but it seems like they are managing to get many Koreans to come to their events right now.
All we fans can do is speculate, I think everyone wants to see Koreans and foreigners playing against eachother more and everyone likes GSL.
On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote: I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all.
i disagree that there's more money to be made outside of korea. i think that's only true if you don't have a chance at winning the GSL, or you can't expect to stay in code A, which those players all do. http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ for reference
read the last X editions of TL tournament wrap-ups, see the prize totals for every period, and get back to me
This is a very good response, and I really like the solutions. If/when they go into effect, I'll certainly become at least a little bit more interested in watching the GSL.
On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote: I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all.
i disagree that there's more money to be made outside of korea. i think that's only true if you don't have a chance at winning the GSL, or you can't expect to stay in code A, which those players all do. http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ for reference
read the last X editions of TL tournament wrap-ups, see the prize totals for every period, and get back to me
Premier Tournaments (Jan-Jun Code A to Dreamhack Summer) (Wiki2)Premier Tournaments Korean individual events: ~$685,000 NA/EU individual events: ~$292,000 (Note, you can include IGN PL S2 $50,000 for July as well since it is listed there but then GSL July prize pool also needs to be included which will further increase the difference)
Major Tournaments (Wiki2)Major Tournaments World ~ $85,000 (euros/pounds roughly converted to dollars)
Adding both up Korea : ~$685,000 World : ~$377,000
Note: You will need ~308 $1000 weekly tourneys or ~1540 $200 weekly tournaments to make up the balance. I doubt there have been that many scale tournaments to make up the difference.
Conclusion: Even though the prize-pools are much more top heavy in Korea, the total prize pool in Korea is in fact higher than the rest of the world combined (possibly even after talking the countless smaller tournaments into account).
For team tournaments as well(2011): (Wiki2)Team Tournaments Korea : ~$51,000 Rest of World: ~$32,000
Some food for thought If you can barely maintain Code S status, i.e. Ro32 each season and never progressing beyond that, you will make $1400 a month which is $5600 total (4 seasons).
According to Prize Money Rank, that will put you in the ~Top 60 prize ranking for this year. Note, a lot of the people above you will still be Koreans. It seems people like to put too much emphasis on small scale tournaments in EU/NA but the amount of competition in these too also do not allow you to make as much as you could by just staying in Top32 Code S and not progressing any time beyond it."
On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote: I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all.
i disagree that there's more money to be made outside of korea. i think that's only true if you don't have a chance at winning the GSL, or you can't expect to stay in code A, which those players all do. http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ for reference
read the last X editions of TL tournament wrap-ups, see the prize totals for every period, and get back to me
it's ridiculous for you to imply that i haven't been paying attention to that. look at the weighted ratings on the djgamblore page. by any measurement, there is more money to be made for the very top players in korea. more money has been given out there in the last 1 month, last 3 months, all of 2011, or the entirety of sc2, and that's a fact.
Great reach out to the community. GOM keeps improving and esports with it!
As far as GSTL goes. I think it's sooooo vital for the growth of the scene that focus in being shifted towards the team league. Totally independent of any of these duscissions with foreigner programs etc I think the GSTL itself will elevate prestige and level of play hugely during these few months. Really looking forward to it!
Terrific response. It's a complicated situation, but it seems as though all possible solutions are being taken into consideration. I appreciate the time that was taken to show Gom's position.
This response is why Korea has a much bigger pro-gaming esports scene, unlike teamliquids Youtube where they interview Huk who just immaturely swears his ass off.
On May 28 2011 02:51 ilmman wrote: This response is why Korea has a much bigger pro-gaming esports scene, unlike teamliquids Youtube where they interview Huk who just immaturely swears his ass off.
The comparison is stupid in of itself. The OP is in management and casting, if you want to compare then compare him to someone like MLG Sundance not Huk :/
awesome. thank you for posting this parapa. dont be upset about the things you cant solve! you're doing great as is. and the whole "mercanary" idea is absolutely awesome imo. and the MLG GSL exchange is also a great step toward player exchange. what you do is not only great for korea, and the few lucky foreigners that get to be apart of the GSL; but great for the community, and esports as a whole.
you're doing a great job. keep it up and thank you!
this may be a very very stupid question here because i'm kinda retarded when it comes to economics and businesses but ... seeing as there's an exchange program between mlg(na) and gsl (korea) to put both communities more together ... why can't you make 1 really big tournament with a large us/kr qualifier respectively and just do a "global" star league that switches venues between kr/us every few months?
I think GSL has done soooooo much for the foreign scene already. Now it's the foreign scene to step up; they already have the framework for the foreigners, and not ask for more.
Waxangel - I have to ask, can you give me some examples? Which international players are making a majority of their money from tournament winnings? In a months time, how much potential loss is actually at stake?
I see people point out these large online tournaments, such as NASL. At the same time they ignore the fact koreans are in those same tournaments, and not doing too shabby even with a lag disadvantage.
And those small 100$ tournaments are won by many, many different players, and sure as hell are not the backbone of income for those people. So many international 'pros' are making their income from sponsors/streaming/coaching, all of which are not impossible to do from korea. The exposure in korea should actually increase those earnings in all cases, as long as you are able to perform aptly.
I have no problem with players saying they do not want to go because they do not feel they have the ability to win or have personal reasons that can't be overlooked. That's fine. But tell it like it is and don't blame GOMTV for it.
A poor comparison that I draw is from amateur poker players that I know. They win local house games, do decent in cash games in atlantic city and have taken down largish tournaments there for 5-10k. But at the same time, they don't want to put up 10k and place/living expenses to go to the world series of poker. Could they compete? Sure. Is the cash risk worth it to them? Not for now.
They sure as hell don't blame the world series of poker for it though.
I guess there isn't a lot of Pro Gamers that would fight for pride and honor anymore these days. One of the reasons why i'm a fan of White-Ra (including all TL team members who went to Korea to compete) representing Western Pro Gamers, fighting for his fans and his honor. I was rooting for White Ra when he face MC in the final of Dreamhack Invitational. Some of the language and excuses I interpret from these posters are wah wah QQ, it's too hard for western pro gamers, the risk is too high, and the money is too low.
On May 28 2011 02:44 Ruccola wrote:Premier Tournaments (Jan-Jun Code A to Dreamhack Summer) (Wiki2)Premier Tournaments Korean individual events: ~$685,000 NA/EU individual events: ~$292,000 (Note, you can include IGN PL S2 $50,000 for July as well since it is listed there but then GSL July prize pool also needs to be included which will further increase the difference)
Major Tournaments (Wiki2)Major Tournaments World ~ $85,000 (euros/pounds roughly converted to dollars)
Adding both up Korea : ~$685,000 World : ~$377,000
Note: You will need ~308 $1000 weekly tourneys or ~1540 $200 weekly tournaments to make up the balance. I doubt there have been that many scale tournaments to make up the difference.
Conclusion: Even though the prize-pools are much more top heavy in Korea, the total prize pool in Korea is in fact higher than the rest of the world combined (possibly even after talking the countless smaller tournaments into account).
For team tournaments as well(2011): (Wiki2)Team Tournaments Korea : ~$51,000 Rest of World: ~$32,000
Some food for thought If you can barely maintain Code S status, i.e. Ro32 each season and never progressing beyond that, you will make $1400 a month which is $5600 total (4 seasons).
According to Prize Money Rank, that will put you in the ~Top 60 prize ranking for this year. Note, a lot of the people above you will still be Koreans. It seems people like to put too much emphasis on small scale tournaments in EU/NA but the amount of competition in these too also do not allow you to make as much as you could by just staying in Top32 Code S and not progressing any time beyond it."
PLUS, what about streaming? lessons? sponsors that big audience attracts? i honestly dont undestand how can anyone say that foreigners in korea arent at top of popularity regardless of results. moonglade did bad, but everybody knows him cause of gsl. huk is most hated person on internet, yet his stream is most popular next to whitera if im not mistaken. idra gets more stream views than some tournaments.
korea is about making money later, investment financialy and skill-wise, and europe/na is making money now. there is no excuse for not going to korea. if esports are not a fancy word that gets these nerds egos up, then by all means it should have all the rules from sports applied to it. in example, you dont decline transfer to Juventus or Arsenal cause you're doing good in porto/ajax/galatasaray and saying you're the best in the world. nobody would take you seriously, right?
edit: there is big audience in the world now, and any foreigner going to korea will get that audience no matter what so why then so many excuses?
This is nicely written, but fails to address the biggest problem: Code A. Code A has a huge luck element to it, a low prize pool, and a very long duration. It simply isn't worth it for foreigners to go to Korea for Code A and a shot at Code S. Maybe I'm out of the loop and this has already been solved, but from what I see Code A is too much of a barrier for anyone to bother going to Korea.
Wow this means a lot to me that he took the time to post this here. Big props to him. I'm looking forward to the new format, soon to come, and I still understood their situation from the post Fnatic made.
On May 28 2011 02:02 Fadetowhite wrote: One of these problems can easily be fixed by LAN (lol) the other can be "fixed" by the players commitment to play on the highest level.
Amen. It's time someone stepped up if they REALLY want to be the best. So far it's just been hot air except from Jinro and HuK. So code A can be a crapshoot? So you keep playing until you succeed.
On May 28 2011 02:54 sanya wrote: this may be a very very stupid question here because i'm kinda retarded when it comes to economics and businesses but ... seeing as there's an exchange program between mlg(na) and gsl (korea) to put both communities more together ... why can't you make 1 really big tournament with a large us/kr qualifier respectively and just do a "global" star league that switches venues between kr/us every few months?
the logistics in that would be a nightmare. and a huge inconvenience to all the players involved, instead of just the foreigners.
On May 28 2011 02:59 Acritter wrote: This is nicely written, but fails to address the biggest problem: Code A. Code A has a huge luck element to it, a low prize pool, and a very long duration. It simply isn't worth it for foreigners to go to Korea for Code A and a shot at Code S. Maybe I'm out of the loop and this has already been solved, but from what I see Code A is too much of a barrier for anyone to bother going to Korea.
i have to disagree with you here. if anything it makes it easier for foreigners to establish themselves in korea. would it be more worthwhile to go to korea to be placed in code S and get put up against absolute monsters like july or nestea first round? or worse yet set aside an unknown amount of time to qualify like the first few seasons? code a helps the players by giving them opponents that are around their skill level. getting rid of code a would be like getting rid of divisions on the ladder.
On May 28 2011 02:59 Acritter wrote: This is nicely written, but fails to address the biggest problem: Code A. Code A has a huge luck element to it, a low prize pool, and a very long duration. It simply isn't worth it for foreigners to go to Korea for Code A and a shot at Code S. Maybe I'm out of the loop and this has already been solved, but from what I see Code A is too much of a barrier for anyone to bother going to Korea.
thats probably why they change the code A format with winner go straight to code S and round of 32 & 16 happened in 1 week, so if you dont qualify for up&down match you can just go back to your more accomplished live in the west by the end of the week
and GOM even pay everything for the top 4 foreign finisher of MLG which can realistically be 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th spot if the 4 korean take the first 4 spot
I think his point was that that stuff didn't matter enough to affect the decisions of MC/MKP/Nestea/MVP. They have the drive and desire to play on the biggest stage for the biggest prize, akin to what HuK and Jinro are doing in Korea, and all that other stuff comes 2nd to competing
Which is fine when it's not costing you an arm and a leg to be out in korea. In order for it not to be super expensive, to have practice partners, to be able to deal with the cultural barriers, and to be able to still participate in the foreign scene.
-Super expensive: This can be taken care of if either gsl just flat out pays expenses...which to some extent they are willing to do, so I don't think this is the largest and only barrier.
- Practice partners: This one can be an issue, as mentioned in the xeris post most teams houses are full, and that makes it difficult for a foreign player going to korea to have a good practice schedule and people to play with. So for this to work the korean teams need to be accepting enough of foreign players to give them people to play with, or a foreign team has to move to korea to participate as an entire unit.
- Cultural barriers: Without someone to essentially show you around and 'take care of you' in the sense of translating for you, or showing you where to go or not to go...there is little for you to do aside play sc2 in korea. Frankly speaking much of someones time probably would be spent playing, but they still need the occasional distraction, food, people to chat with. So essentially for a foreign player they need other foreigners there who can spend the time to show them around and help them with issues.
- Participating in foreign tournaments: This one is kind of big and the one gom can do the least about...however even when people like idra were there foreigners ran into issues with gom's schedule and the foreign scene. Gom was not always 100% accommodating to foreigners living in koreans want to go to other tournaments. Even if they were the only thing you could participate in practically would be the weekend lans, all internet based tournaments such as IPL/NASL/weekly cups would all be off limits just due to latency issues between korea and NA/EU/LA servers.
There is other issues here and there as well, I think the last issue is one of the greater concerns for foreigners. I also think the cultural barriers is of great concern as well to foreigners. All in all it comes down in my mind to one thing...
Will I get enough out of korea as a team manager to send my players there? Right now for a lot of teams I think the answer is either no, or only temporarily if given enough time to prepare.
They still just don't get it. Sure they have tons of tournaments during the year, but they only run one tournament at a time.
There is ONLY GSL there. There are no smaller cups. There are no other big tournaments. There is no other way to compete for those months that you are in Korea except to play in GSL tournaments.
If you get eliminated early, you just have to sit on your hands and wait for the next tournament. If you are in the foreigner scene and get elimated from NASL, you can compete in MLG. If you get eliminated from Dreamhack, you can compete in craft cups.
There are MORE opportunities to compete in the foreigner scene.
If you want people to compete in Korea, grow the scene beyond GSL tournaments.
On May 28 2011 02:58 snailz wrote: korea is about making money later, investment financialy and skill-wise, and europe/na is making money now. there is no excuse for not going to korea. if esports are not a fancy word that gets these nerds egos up, then by all means it should have all the rules from sports applied to it. in example, you dont decline transfer to Juventus or Arsenal cause you're doing good in porto/ajax/galatasaray and saying you're the best in the world. nobody would take you seriously, right?
edit: there is big audience in the world now, and any foreigner going to korea will get that audience no matter what so why then so many excuses?
Derailing a bit but why not Manchester United or Barcelona when the Champions League is about 24 hours away! XD
On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote: I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all.
i disagree that there's more money to be made outside of korea. i think that's only true if you don't have a chance at winning the GSL, or you can't expect to stay in code A, which those players all do. http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ for reference
read the last X editions of TL tournament wrap-ups, see the prize totals for every period, and get back to me
it's ridiculous for you to imply that i haven't been paying attention to that. look at the weighted ratings on the djgamblore page. by any measurement, there is more money to be made for the very top players in korea. more money has been given out there in the last 1 month, last 3 months, all of 2011, or the entirety of sc2, and that's a fact.
I agree with you that there is more money in Korea. But the only players that make a ton are koreans that have gone on to either win a GSL or consistently get very far in them. In other words, they are top 10 players in the world basically.
So a foreigner has to decide whether they think they can get that far. If the answer is a maybe, then why risk it when you can get safe money outside of korea?
Especially since theres a good chance NA/EU will have more money in the future. I mean with NASL/IPL, thats almost the prize pool of the GSL. Then you have to consider more IEM events, MLG prize pools increasing, DH prize pools increasing... prize pools across the board basically increasing.
It's just tough to commit to the GSL when theres a very good chance you won't get any return. For example, Huk has made very little money in terms of prizes since going to korea (compared to what he made while in NA).
The only players I really see going are those that are hellbent on being the best. They don't care about the money. For example Naniwa. That is exactly the player he is. Unfortunately there aren't many of them.
Gotta give props to Gom people. This is exactly why I give more edges to GSL than any other foreign tournaments out there. It's called professionalism.
Definitely appreciate that Gom would take time/ dare to talk to the foreign community. Great debate. Not sure how I feel on either side. I definitely have a great deal of sympathy for Gom.
Anyone who isn't married or doesn't have a girlfriend is chicken and just wants to ride the wave of small potatoes SC2 tourneys until it fades in a few years. Suck it up, put in the time, and go on an adventure.
This is the most valid part in my opinion, really hit home with me as to how I feel about the whole situation.
'I have provided “opportunity” through “system”, and “opportunity” is all that I can provide. Creating “results” is not my job but up to the players themselves, through their will and amount of practice. '
On May 28 2011 03:06 Aurdon wrote: They still just don't get it. Sure they have tons of tournaments during the year, but they only run one tournament at a time.
There is ONLY GSL there. There are no smaller cups. There are no other big tournaments. There is no other way to compete for those months that you are in Korea except to play in GSL tournaments.
If you get eliminated early, you just have to sit on your hands and wait for the next tournament. If you are in the foreigner scene and get elimated from NASL, you can compete in MLG. If you get eliminated from Dreamhack, you can compete in craft cups.
There are MORE opportunities to compete in the foreigner scene.
If you want people to compete in Korea, grow the scene beyond GSL tournaments.
Stop pretending your mentioned tournaments take turns every other week, and foreigners wouldn't have ample time between every event. If you would actually take a total prize/time quota EU/NA is not really above GSL is it?
On May 28 2011 03:06 Aurdon wrote: They still just don't get it. Sure they have tons of tournaments during the year, but they only run one tournament at a time.
There is ONLY GSL there. There are no smaller cups. There are no other big tournaments. There is no other way to compete for those months that you are in Korea except to play in GSL tournaments.
If you get eliminated early, you just have to sit on your hands and wait for the next tournament. If you are in the foreigner scene and get elimated from NASL, you can compete in MLG. If you get eliminated from Dreamhack, you can compete in craft cups.
There are MORE opportunities to compete in the foreigner scene.
If you want people to compete in Korea, grow the scene beyond GSL tournaments.
this is factually incorrect, there are a number of tournaments outside gsl -every month SK runs a 16-32 man champions trophy -fxo has its koth every month or so -csn ran some tournaments just recently -there were the tournaments a couple months ago, ygosu and danawa -lg is putting on another tournament, regional qualifiers are almost over
On May 28 2011 03:06 Aurdon wrote: They still just don't get it. Sure they have tons of tournaments during the year, but they only run one tournament at a time.
There is ONLY GSL there. There are no smaller cups. There are no other big tournaments. There is no other way to compete for those months that you are in Korea except to play in GSL tournaments.
If you get eliminated early, you just have to sit on your hands and wait for the next tournament. If you are in the foreigner scene and get elimated from NASL, you can compete in MLG. If you get eliminated from Dreamhack, you can compete in craft cups.
There are MORE opportunities to compete in the foreigner scene.
If you want people to compete in Korea, grow the scene beyond GSL tournaments.
What's preventing Foreigners living in Korea to compete in NASL, IPL, and other small online tournament? and Also MLG and Dreamhack tournament can be attended by People who are competeing in GSL. MC, Bomber, MMA, Losira, Jinro and Huk. Suck it up and take the risks(money, time, commitment) to get bigger reward(pride, honor, prestige and fame).
Dear Parapa, first I would like to thank you for gracing TL with your presence, time, and goodwill . Secondly, thank you very much for your concern for non-Korean players playing in Korea and with the development of professional SC. Keep up the good work with the GSL!
On May 28 2011 03:06 Aurdon wrote: They still just don't get it. Sure they have tons of tournaments during the year, but they only run one tournament at a time.
There is ONLY GSL there. There are no smaller cups. There are no other big tournaments. There is no other way to compete for those months that you are in Korea except to play in GSL tournaments.
If you get eliminated early, you just have to sit on your hands and wait for the next tournament. If you are in the foreigner scene and get elimated from NASL, you can compete in MLG. If you get eliminated from Dreamhack, you can compete in craft cups.
There are MORE opportunities to compete in the foreigner scene.
If you want people to compete in Korea, grow the scene beyond GSL tournaments.
How about i dunno. training? You got this whole korean ladder and maybe its not the top pro's that use their best strategies you will get better.
On May 28 2011 03:06 Aurdon wrote:There is ONLY GSL there. There are no smaller cups. There are no other big tournaments. There is no other way to compete for those months that you are in Korea except to play in GSL tournaments.
This argument is being brought up so many times now, and it is shared by many teams, as we could recently see in these threads. And it is completely invalid.
Some months ago, I mailed one of my EU guest passes to none other than Cella. Yes, it was a horribly high latency from KR. He then tried again, using a tunnel to play on EU, totally free of lag. Somehow it must be possible for these giant foreign powerhouse teams to spent 20 bucks per month. Missing out all the Zotac, Go4Sc2, Cyborg, Craftcup, Competo, TLOpen, 4pl, Gamecreds cups? No excuse anymore.
Excellent post Mr Chae, thank you for sharing your thoughts with the community, it's amazing that you take the time out to respond and discuss the devolopment of the global esports scene ^^
On May 28 2011 03:06 Aurdon wrote: They still just don't get it. Sure they have tons of tournaments during the year, but they only run one tournament at a time.
There is ONLY GSL there. There are no smaller cups. There are no other big tournaments. There is no other way to compete for those months that you are in Korea except to play in GSL tournaments.
If you get eliminated early, you just have to sit on your hands and wait for the next tournament. If you are in the foreigner scene and get elimated from NASL, you can compete in MLG. If you get eliminated from Dreamhack, you can compete in craft cups.
There are MORE opportunities to compete in the foreigner scene.
If you want people to compete in Korea, grow the scene beyond GSL tournaments.
this is factually incorrect, there are a number of tournaments outside gsl -every month SK runs a 16-32 man champions trophy -fxo has its koth every month or so -csn ran some tournaments just recently -there were the tournaments a couple months ago, ygosu and danawa -lg is putting on another tournament, regional qualifiers are almost over
Not to mention iCCup have announced their new weekly tournament (a tournament where GOM helped them with networking within the scene) which will have $1300 in prizes for the first month.
Your response was both diplomatic and encouraging. We are lucky as fans to have you listen to our concerns. As true fans we also appreciate the ability to listen to your concerns. At the very heart of what we love we are all the same. Our views on how things should operate will always be a debate. You are doing a great job and I'm thankful to have you, John, Tasteless, Artosis and others working very hard to make this all a reality. I appreciate everything you've done so far and wish you more success. Thank you for taking the time to address the foreign fans.
Also be sure to take the time to understand the views of your true fans. Maybe a suggestion would be to e-mail fans (who are registered on GOMTV) and ask them questions on the tournament and how you could make it better. Sometimes the vocal minority is the voice that's heard the loudest. I have faith in your team to make the best decisions. Working with other foreign communities is a clear sign of your true intentions.
On May 28 2011 03:06 Aurdon wrote: They still just don't get it. Sure they have tons of tournaments during the year, but they only run one tournament at a time.
There is ONLY GSL there. There are no smaller cups. There are no other big tournaments. There is no other way to compete for those months that you are in Korea except to play in GSL tournaments.
If you get eliminated early, you just have to sit on your hands and wait for the next tournament. If you are in the foreigner scene and get elimated from NASL, you can compete in MLG. If you get eliminated from Dreamhack, you can compete in craft cups.
There are MORE opportunities to compete in the foreigner scene.
If you want people to compete in Korea, grow the scene beyond GSL tournaments.
this is factually incorrect, there are a number of tournaments outside gsl -every month SK runs a 16-32 man champions trophy -fxo has its koth every month or so -csn ran some tournaments just recently -there were the tournaments a couple months ago, ygosu and danawa -lg is putting on another tournament, regional qualifiers are almost over
and the gainward tourney (I mention it because it had a pretty high prizepool iirc)
I just want to start with telling you how grateful I am about you taking your time to type this long, clear and very informative thread. I do agree with you on almost every level. I believe that GOMTV is really doing their absolute best to be as awesome as possible and I have to say that the GSL has been handled in a almost perfect way from the very beginning. You have been very responsive to criticism and that's pretty much the best you can do.
The only thing I want to try and add myself is about what you typed about that the Korean pros would go to NA. I believe this to be absolutely true, but that's because it is still impossible to compare the Korean scene and pros to the western ones. In Korea, from what I've understood, e-sports has been a socially and culturally accepted sport. This is not the case in the rest of the world. It's just now starting to get more and more press from the "normal" media.
So what difference does this make? Well, a Korean SC2-pro who follow their dream and try to be the best in the world will get a lot of support from home and from friends. Them going over-seas is simply just cool and awesome. In the West, I don't believe this would be the case. Parents, family, friends would not have the same overall understanding for the dream as they would in Korea. I'm not saying this is a deciding factor, but I personally believe it's something to be taken into account!
My guess is dignitas, as naniwa was talking about DEFINITELY going to Korea on SotG, and select has been, and with his Korean heritage is probably chomping at the bit for the opportunity to go back.
Thank you for a mature and well thought-out post Rapapa. Communication like this really helps to build a stronger bridge between the different communities.
AMAZING!! I wonder who the team that contacted them regarding GSTL is? Must be a team with a lot of money if they are going to send over a team. FXO maybe? EG? One of the Big European teams?
Edit: On 2nd thought EG has a lot going on in the US
On May 28 2011 03:51 Fishriot wrote: Is it just me, or does it seem like most Koreans are completely ignorant to how much SC2 has blown up outside of Korea?
do you speak with koreans about the esports scene outside of their own country regularly? or are you completely ignorant to their perspectives?
to answer your question more directly. they are fully aware of it obviously. we have koreans playing tournaments like IEM, dreamhack, NASL, the TSL, and now MLG. for fucks sake you just posted this on a thread made by someone affiliated with gomtv, and on the subject of global esports. use your brain man.
On May 28 2011 03:06 Aurdon wrote: They still just don't get it. Sure they have tons of tournaments during the year, but they only run one tournament at a time.
There is ONLY GSL there. There are no smaller cups. There are no other big tournaments. There is no other way to compete for those months that you are in Korea except to play in GSL tournaments.
If you get eliminated early, you just have to sit on your hands and wait for the next tournament. If you are in the foreigner scene and get elimated from NASL, you can compete in MLG. If you get eliminated from Dreamhack, you can compete in craft cups.
There are MORE opportunities to compete in the foreigner scene.
If you want people to compete in Korea, grow the scene beyond GSL tournaments.
Stop pretending your mentioned tournaments take turns every other week, and foreigners wouldn't have ample time between every event. If you would actually take a total prize/time quota EU/NA is not really above GSL is it?
Yes it seems like the prize pools are similar, and GSL does wthat they can to reduce transportation and living costs. The reason that feels most compelling to me is this: foreigners feel like there is easier money elsewhere. A top-tier foreigner can win many small purses in a month. But the World Championship showed that top foreigners could easily be knocked out in the first or second round in a Korean LAN setting. If foreigners believed that they had a good chance to go deep in the Super Tournament, I think we'd seem more of them over there.
On May 28 2011 03:51 Fishriot wrote: Is it just me, or does it seem like most Koreans are completely ignorant to how much SC2 has blown up outside of Korea?
On May 28 2011 03:51 Fishriot wrote: Is it just me, or does it seem like most Koreans are completely ignorant to how much SC2 has blown up outside of Korea?
Oh, the irony.
Rofl yeah. Troll? If not, yes it's just you.
And still, compared to Korea, SC2 hasn't blown up that much. At least, Starcraft in comparison (Western starcraft 2 scene like USA is nothing compared to korea's BW/SC2 scene)
On May 28 2011 02:02 Fadetowhite wrote: One of these problems can easily be fixed by LAN (lol) the other can be "fixed" by the players commitment to play on the highest level.
Amen. It's time someone stepped up if they REALLY want to be the best. So far it's just been hot air except from Jinro and HuK. So code A can be a crapshoot? So you keep playing until you succeed.
I agree, i think if foreigners want it bad enough they will take a shot at code A.
When I read these Gom staff posts I react to how contrite they seem. It feels like they are trying to explain something they did wrong, as if the foreign community blames Gom for not getting foreigners to come to Korea. I don't read the forum posts that often, but is that a common opinion in the threads? I don't understand why Gom feel the need to write this stuff. Is it just me, or isn't GSL the most prestigious tournament in the world and if that isn't enough for the foreign players the koreans (/companies) have no other obligations towards the foreigners?
...
Oh, I just realized that this may be the reason, is it because gomtv subscribers demand it? Can someone who is a more frequent reader of the forums explain this...
On May 28 2011 03:51 Fishriot wrote: Is it just me, or does it seem like most Koreans are completely ignorant to how much SC2 has blown up outside of Korea?
Oh, the irony.
Rofl yeah. Troll? If not, yes it's just you.
And still, compared to Korea, SC2 hasn't blown up that much. At least, Starcraft in comparison (Western starcraft 2 scene like USA is nothing compared to korea's BW/SC2 scene)
Starcraft 2 is pretty damn big in Europe if you ask me (dunno about US)....of course its not as big as bw korea....but bw has been around alot longer. Juding by the fast growth of SC2 in Europe...it wouldnt suprise me that GSL would get alot more Europeans in their leagues or Europe will start they own league in the next year.....
On May 28 2011 03:51 Fishriot wrote: Is it just me, or does it seem like most Koreans are completely ignorant to how much SC2 has blown up outside of Korea?
Oh, the irony.
Rofl yeah. Troll? If not, yes it's just you.
And still, compared to Korea, SC2 hasn't blown up that much. At least, Starcraft in comparison (Western starcraft 2 scene like USA is nothing compared to korea's BW/SC2 scene)
Starcraft 2 is pretty damn big in Europe if you ask me (dunno about US)....of course its not as big as bw korea....but bw has been around alot longer. Juding by the fast growth of SC2 in Europe...it wouldnt suprise me that GSL would get alot more Europeans in their leagues or Europe will start they own league in the next year.....
Oh and GSL is doing an amazing job...
I guess he's pointing to the difference when comparing korean bw scene vs the current state of sc2 in the west. It's still a huge difference in price money and event scale.
On May 28 2011 03:39 Hall0wed wrote: That Anon fnatic member has to be TT1, he is just an angry person so don't mind him.
TT1's reply had nothing BM or angry in it. The anon fnatic member he is referring to is Fams. He's just some random dude that writes random articles and posts in SC2 General for more views.
I am flattered that someone in Gom (who obviously cares) made this big thread, It shows how compassionate they are and also shows how they want eSports to grow globally. I wish PlayXP, Teamliquid and any other large Starcraft website could merge and make an even larger organization, I think it would bring the community even closer together.
I think the teamleague formate is alot more entertaining to watch enjoyment-wise although it does make some matchups not happen that would be interesting (MVP vs. NesTea, etc). I think more foreign teams should be looking for have their players in Korea for GSL and GSTL as a team, to compete with the best on the biggest stage. In my opinion Players in Korea make a bigger name for themselves playing in GSL / GSTL then playing in NASL/IPL, etc just because GSL and GSTL is much more competitive and is backed by Blizzard and a major broadcasting company (Gom) aswell as much more competition.
I myself would love to go to Korea if I was able to, just the experience would make me jump at the chance, playing with all of my idols, learning a new culture and just experiencing a change. Although it most likely wont happen because I am mid-high masters and don't have a competitive practice schedule that some people are able to "inherit" from teams, etc. I definitly think anyone who has the chance should go live there for a few seasons. Look at Jinro, Huk, Ret and TLO. They are absolute beasts now.
"There is LAN tournament with equivalent size and prize pool as GSL in USA and tournaments in Korea are mostly online. If MVP, MC, Nestea and MKP were to be invited to States to participate in LAN tournament for a month(and they will be provided a place to sleep and practice like GOMTV is providing now), would they decide to go to US?"
This part is so true, of course they would, it just go to show overall how much more commited koreans are to starcraft. I really hope more foreigners will follow their dreams and try to acheive greatness in the GSL.
On May 28 2011 03:51 Fishriot wrote: Is it just me, or does it seem like most Koreans are completely ignorant to how much SC2 has blown up outside of Korea?
lol seriously? of course they do, but right now korea still has a much larger esports fan base than the west. What is the most youve seen on a tournament stream for a western tournament, probably 60k for the TSL finals, GSL posts much higher numbers than these everyday, I know that they have gotten 400k viewers on stream alone for a finals (cant remember exactly where i read that ><) thats not including viewrers on anibox though just korean and foreign streams. E sports may be getting bigger and bigger outside of korea, but it is no where near reaching the point of esports in korea yet, look at NASL they post 10-15k viewers , that really isnt that many in the whole scheme of things esports potential is huge in the west, its just not getting the numbers yet.
On May 28 2011 03:51 Fishriot wrote: Is it just me, or does it seem like most Koreans are completely ignorant to how much SC2 has blown up outside of Korea?
Oh, the irony.
Rofl yeah. Troll? If not, yes it's just you.
And still, compared to Korea, SC2 hasn't blown up that much. At least, Starcraft in comparison (Western starcraft 2 scene like USA is nothing compared to korea's BW/SC2 scene)
Starcraft 2 is pretty damn big in Europe if you ask me (dunno about US)....of course its not as big as bw korea....but bw has been around alot longer. Juding by the fast growth of SC2 in Europe...it wouldnt suprise me that GSL would get alot more Europeans in their leagues or Europe will start they own league in the next year.....
Oh and GSL is doing an amazing job...
I guess he's pointing to the difference when comparing korean bw scene vs the current state of sc2 in the west. It's still a huge difference in price money and event scale.
Yeah, I think that's what provrorsbarn understood but just disagreed with. I forget, sorry for a bit of ignorance, I live in USA where eSports is probably way behind Europe. USA is too stubborn and feels too superior to try new things from other countries, always looking down at things like eSports.
And well, actually the prize money in foreign countries is probably about the same, if not bigger. In BW the prize money is much much less than NASL for example, or other leagues which are having a standard of $50,000 first prize. But if you compare SC2 in foreign nations with SC2 in Korea, it's about the same. But anyways, when you say pri[z]e money you probably just mean finance, right? In which case is right of course, since BW pros get paid so much ^_^
I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you
Interesting. FXO? Can't be TL or EG (or is it?). Fnatic maybe? ARGH can't wait for that announcement ^^
it's gotta be dignitas. naniwa has talked about spending time on korea, select *is* korean and I think sjow mentioned it in the past at some point. i couldn't see it being any other team.
Yeah, it would be awesome and I think they might do pretty well
you're hospitality and understanding goes above and beyond. it is good to hear you are attending mlg cbus as the atmosphere is inspiring. to gom the best star 2 league.
On May 28 2011 03:51 Fishriot wrote: Is it just me, or does it seem like most Koreans are completely ignorant to how much SC2 has blown up outside of Korea?
People like you are so ignorant. Yes they are fully aware the e-sports is growing outside of korea. But the level to which you've inflated how much it has grown in the west is laughable. sc2 is still far more popular in korea than it is in the west. Really it seems people like to overestimate how much e-sports has grown. It's really not as significant as you think.
I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you
Interesting. FXO? Can't be TL or EG (or is it?). Fnatic maybe? ARGH can't wait for that announcement ^^
Defenetly not fnatic(have you seen their articles regarding the GSL they dont think to highly of it), im Thinking FXO to be honest XD
I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you
Interesting. FXO? Can't be TL or EG (or is it?). Fnatic maybe? ARGH can't wait for that announcement ^^
Defenetly not fnatic(have you seen their articles regarding the GSL they dont think to highly of it), im Thinking FXO to be honest XD
i think its fxo...dont they have a house in madrid?
I really like how open gom is being and how willing they are to creat a nice environment for foreigners.
Its kind of disheartening, that we have all these negative "aggresive" as Mr.chae said (unproffesional IMO) posts towards the GSL and korea, and they are being so positive and welcoming to foreigners at the same time, I think that problem with korea post should be taken off the spotlight it should never have been there to begin with it stated alot of false / outdated information now and was quite offensive/aggresive in nature.
On May 28 2011 03:51 Fishriot wrote: Is it just me, or does it seem like most Koreans are completely ignorant to how much SC2 has blown up outside of Korea?
People like you are so ignorant. Yes they are fully aware the e-sports is growing outside of korea. But the level to which you've inflated how much it has grown in the west is laughable. sc2 is still far more popular in korea than it is in the west. Really it seems people like to overestimate how much e-sports has grown. It's really not as significant as you think.
There is not enough information in the public space for you to jump to conclusions like this. We don't really have viewership numbers for entire markets and the only thing to go off right now is prize pool, which the West has increased dramatically since SC2 was released.
I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you
Interesting. FXO? Can't be TL or EG (or is it?). Fnatic maybe? ARGH can't wait for that announcement ^^
Defenetly not fnatic(have you seen their articles regarding the GSL they dont think to highly of it), im Thinking FXO to be honest XD
i think its fxo...dont they have a house in madrid?
I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you
Interesting. FXO? Can't be TL or EG (or is it?). Fnatic maybe? ARGH can't wait for that announcement ^^
Defenetly not fnatic(have you seen their articles regarding the GSL they dont think to highly of it), im Thinking FXO to be honest XD
i think its fxo...dont they have a house in madrid?
Madrid, thats in spain you realise. I think you meant malaysia they have a place in malaysia and defenetly have the capital to be flying their players in and out of the gom house as they see fit.
On May 28 2011 03:51 Fishriot wrote: Is it just me, or does it seem like most Koreans are completely ignorant to how much SC2 has blown up outside of Korea?
People like you are so ignorant. Yes they are fully aware the e-sports is growing outside of korea. But the level to which you've inflated how much it has grown in the west is laughable. sc2 is still far more popular in korea than it is in the west. Really it seems people like to overestimate how much e-sports has grown. It's really not as significant as you think.
There is not enough information in the public space for you to jump to conclusions like this. We don't really have viewership numbers for entire markets and the only thing to go off right now is prize pool, which the West has increased dramatically since SC2 was released.
Because throwing out easy money obviously means you have the better/bigger scene right? Honestly when it comes down to it, foreigners aren't going to korea because they know they can't compete/win prize money (except for a few). I hope to see more foreigners who care about being the best, training with the best, rather than just being in it for easy money. If that's truly what the foreign scene is all about, then I hope Koreans start flying to foreign tournaments and take all their money.
On May 27 2011 19:54 ch33psh33p wrote: Maturity at it's best. Maybe if most people posted like this, we'd get some constructive discussion going around threads like these.
Wonderfully proposed solution, I hope to see more foreign players attempt to try in Korea.
yup I have to agree!
so glad gomtv is reading TL.net. Does that tell you something Xeris?!
On May 28 2011 03:51 Fishriot wrote: Is it just me, or does it seem like most Koreans are completely ignorant to how much SC2 has blown up outside of Korea?
People like you are so ignorant. Yes they are fully aware the e-sports is growing outside of korea. But the level to which you've inflated how much it has grown in the west is laughable. sc2 is still far more popular in korea than it is in the west. Really it seems people like to overestimate how much e-sports has grown. It's really not as significant as you think.
There is not enough information in the public space for you to jump to conclusions like this. We don't really have viewership numbers for entire markets and the only thing to go off right now is prize pool, which the West has increased dramatically since SC2 was released.
Because throwing out easy money obviously means you have the better/bigger scene right? Honestly when it comes down to it, foreigners aren't going to korea because they know they can't compete/win prize money (except for a few). I hope to see more foreigners who care about being the best, training with the best, rather than just being in it for easy money. If that's truly what the foreign scene is all about, then I hope Koreans start flying to foreign tournaments and take all their money.
I said the western market has grown....nothing about it being better or bigger but then it seems you clearly have your own agenda. I don't blame any player for playing in tournaments where there is less competition. Its like telling poker pros they only have to play other poker pros and ignore millionaire amateur business men that want to play because its "not as skillful" and they aren't playing against the best.
Read through the whole thing. This is what struck me most
I have provided “opportunity” through “system”, and “opportunity” is all that I can provide. Creating “results” is not my job but up to the players themselves, through their will and amount of practice.
Really agree with this. We've seen players like MC run across the globe to dominate touneys in the West, while HuK is the only representative in the east. Not bringing about the East vs West debate but to make it in the GSL, you really have to practice hard.
This is indeed good news for all the foreign players. Hoping to see more interaction and less segregation.
On May 28 2011 03:51 Fishriot wrote: Is it just me, or does it seem like most Koreans are completely ignorant to how much SC2 has blown up outside of Korea?
People like you are so ignorant. Yes they are fully aware the e-sports is growing outside of korea. But the level to which you've inflated how much it has grown in the west is laughable. sc2 is still far more popular in korea than it is in the west. Really it seems people like to overestimate how much e-sports has grown. It's really not as significant as you think.
There is not enough information in the public space for you to jump to conclusions like this. We don't really have viewership numbers for entire markets and the only thing to go off right now is prize pool, which the West has increased dramatically since SC2 was released.
Because throwing out easy money obviously means you have the better/bigger scene right? Honestly when it comes down to it, foreigners aren't going to korea because they know they can't compete/win prize money (except for a few). I hope to see more foreigners who care about being the best, training with the best, rather than just being in it for easy money. If that's truly what the foreign scene is all about, then I hope Koreans start flying to foreign tournaments and take all their money.
I said the western market has grown....nothing about it being better or bigger but then it seems you clearly have your own agenda. I don't blame any player for playing in tournaments where there is less competition. Its like telling poker pros they only have to play other poker pros and ignore millionaire amateur business men that want to play because its "not as skillful" and they aren't playing against the best.
Taking the easy way out is perfectly fine as long as you're not complaining about it. But for some reason we have people complaining about not being able to go to korea when it's their own fault they're not willing to put forth the dedication to go. I don't have anything against people who want easy money, but they shouldn't expect to be the best while doing so.
Great thing that GOMTV takes so much initiative in bringing more foreign players to korea, I just hope more players will take these chances that gomtv are trying to give them. <3 Gomtv
On May 28 2011 03:51 Fishriot wrote: Is it just me, or does it seem like most Koreans are completely ignorant to how much SC2 has blown up outside of Korea?
People like you are so ignorant. Yes they are fully aware the e-sports is growing outside of korea. But the level to which you've inflated how much it has grown in the west is laughable. sc2 is still far more popular in korea than it is in the west. Really it seems people like to overestimate how much e-sports has grown. It's really not as significant as you think.
There is not enough information in the public space for you to jump to conclusions like this. We don't really have viewership numbers for entire markets and the only thing to go off right now is prize pool, which the West has increased dramatically since SC2 was released.
Because throwing out easy money obviously means you have the better/bigger scene right? Honestly when it comes down to it, foreigners aren't going to korea because they know they can't compete/win prize money (except for a few). I hope to see more foreigners who care about being the best, training with the best, rather than just being in it for easy money. If that's truly what the foreign scene is all about, then I hope Koreans start flying to foreign tournaments and take all their money.
I said the western market has grown....nothing about it being better or bigger but then it seems you clearly have your own agenda. I don't blame any player for playing in tournaments where there is less competition. Its like telling poker pros they only have to play other poker pros and ignore millionaire amateur business men that want to play because its "not as skillful" and they aren't playing against the best.
Taking the easy way out is perfectly fine as long as you're not complaining about it. But for some reason we have people complaining about not being able to go to korea when it's their own fault they're not willing to put forth the dedication to go. I don't have anything against people who want easy money, but they shouldn't expect to be the best while doing so.
Yea now we agree. Gom has done everything it can to try and accomodate foreigners that want to go out to Korea and compete in GSL, we can ask nothing more of them tbh.
On May 28 2011 04:12 mistgun_EU wrote: So we might be able to see Jinro or Huk in GSTL ? awesome, oGs needs some backup
i hope the foreign team is either Dignitas or Mouz
Dignitas would have been my first guess, too, but both Sjow and Bischu just moved in with TLO in the progamer house in Stockholm. Same applies for mouz.Morrow. I guess it might be FXO. If I recall correctly they stated that they wanted to have players in Korea a while ago.
I think that the Koreans are not able to interpret the reasons why the Foreigners don't want to go to Korea for a month.
Their argument is not that the money in GSL is not enough, or the prices are only for the very top contenders. Their argument is that in comparison with the large amount of tournaments in the foreign scene, they have less chances to win something that makes the trip worth their time.
If for some reason Koreans or maybe even GSL itself would open more either online or LAN tournament opportunities, foreigners would be more than willing to participare in GSL and in those other tournaments.
On May 28 2011 03:51 Fishriot wrote: Is it just me, or does it seem like most Koreans are completely ignorant to how much SC2 has blown up outside of Korea?
People like you are so ignorant. Yes they are fully aware the e-sports is growing outside of korea. But the level to which you've inflated how much it has grown in the west is laughable. sc2 is still far more popular in korea than it is in the west. Really it seems people like to overestimate how much e-sports has grown. It's really not as significant as you think.
There is not enough information in the public space for you to jump to conclusions like this. We don't really have viewership numbers for entire markets and the only thing to go off right now is prize pool, which the West has increased dramatically since SC2 was released.
Because throwing out easy money obviously means you have the better/bigger scene right? Honestly when it comes down to it, foreigners aren't going to korea because they know they can't compete/win prize money (except for a few). I hope to see more foreigners who care about being the best, training with the best, rather than just being in it for easy money. If that's truly what the foreign scene is all about, then I hope Koreans start flying to foreign tournaments and take all their money.
I agree. The most recent State of the Game is an example of this. There are just too many players that are crying about Korean competition. These players are not willing to travel to Korea because they know they cannot compete and at the same time they don't want Koreans coming overseas to take their money. Then you have guys like Naniwa who welcomes competition and wants to improve. Naniwa understands that while playing with Korean competition may hurt your income stream in the short-term, in the long run, he'll succeed and surpass. These are the type of players fans want to see.
I think the language barrier is a much bigger issue than most people give it credit for. Being a pro-gamer is a tough life and being a part of a lively SC2 community is important for their enjoyment and motivation to play the game. For a foreigner, going to Korea must be isolating. With the demanding practice schedule, there isn't a lot of time for them to learn Korean, which is a difficult language that has few uses outside of Korea. Since there wasn't much of a BW scene outside of Korea, I would guess that most Korean pro-gamers do not speak much English. (I'm actually a little surprised by this since many other Asian countries like China now have rigorous English requirements in school.)
There's nothing GOM can do to directly solve this issue but they are doing the right things to encourage more foreigners to go to Korea. When there are enough foreigners in Korea to sustain a good sized English speaking community, I'm sure more foreigners will be willing to visit for months at a time.
I'm excited about the GSL format changes and for the ability of foreigners to play as mercenaries. Thank you GOM for being willing to embrace SCII as a global playing field!
A really great article. The transparency at Gom has always impressed me. The effort that Gom is putting in to try to accommodate foreigners is really amazing.
I understand the point you are trying to make about spreading the joys of eSports all over the world, but you are trying to bring players from MLG (a 3 day event) into GSL (I'm not sure whether they have to go through code A or straight into code S so I won't emphasis on the amount of time, but it's much longer than 2 weeks we can all agree) and no other form of league is having a "foreign exchange" program, no other countries are involved as well correct? there are many great players in Europe, Australia and China, but are these country's being reached out to as well? I'm getting off my original tangent for noting the amount of time for the tournaments, the fact is... there is more money in a MLG than GSL, and honestly, I believe there is more fame in there home country.
If i may give an example, i know many Korean players who are PRO'S! but i don't know much about the up and comers, but here in the NA I follow not only the top tippy top but also the up and comers and also a few of the wild cards and it gives me a sense of pride to cheer for them especially when they play against Korean's... no offense... just home team
But the 4 players sent to MLG from GSL are taking quite a leap of faith as well.. language/culture break and just the "lost" feeling, but they have to go through it for only 3-5 days, while players chosen from MLG have to leave their families, wives, children, friends, and responsibilities for much much longer, and even though for some this is a wonderful opportunity but, I respectfully disagree that your thoughts of this being a chance of a lifetime.
Fact of the matter, pro-gamers are in it for the money, it's their job, their meal ticket, and that's all, yes i'm sure there are more sponsorship deals available in Korea for right now but NA and EU are making huge break throughs into popular knowledge, Starcraft in general is becoming a sport.. not just an "eSport" but... a legit sporting industry that is seen by many corporations as a new method to tap into more sales. And in my opinion, there is more money to be made at home, with the family close, and team even closer and not lost in translation.
I do wish the best for the community in itself and think that the heart was in the right place for this.
If you truly wish to be the best pro-gamer and compete on the highest stage, then there is definitely no reason to not go to Korea.
People who use money or social reasons such as friends or family as excuses command no sympathy or respect from me. There are many korean pro-gamers who make absolutely nothing, in both sc2 and bw. All they get are living conditions and some food, and they play 12+ hours a day of constant gaming all in the hopes of qualifying for some event or playing some televised match. The sacrifices they make are tremendous, and in terms of pure desire and ambition, these guys would and SHOULD absolutely dominate any XXX-foreign guy who isn't willing to make these sacrifices.
This reminds me of what OgsLittleBoy said when he first played his match in the open seasons, in that if he recieved code A he would stay for a year or so, but if he didn't then he would go back to his hometown to farm for the rest of his life or whatever. I can only imagine the stress of being in that situation and knowing that you've bet everything on those results from endless nights practicing in net cafes.
And then I have to read about XXX and his whine about covering transportation costs or not being with friends. (which itself is the stupidest argument because unless you are a 16 year old sheltered boy then gaming should be your job and priority and moving somewhere, anywhere for a month or two is absolutely nothing, even for student, much less an adult whos doing this to pursue his hearts dream.)
When people mention money they also forget the intangible things such as reputation and fame they could go. Let's take for instance Idra. He's known as a BM progamer thats a great zerg player and arguably the most popular western player. He was also made by korea. No one would care for him if he was just random xxx foreign player playing in USA. He was known as that white boy who stood up against the scary korean players and BM'ed everyone on ladder, and now he can come back from playing top 8 in a gsl and being in code S and do whatever the hell he wishes.
Of course, the flip side is if you go and fail in the qualifiers for xxx number of times then you will be looked down upon, but those are the risks that you have to take in order to be the best, if you believe that you are.
Well, all I can say that is if you are a true competitor then you shouldn't be afraid to go to the highest stage to compete.
On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote: I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all.
i disagree that there's more money to be made outside of korea. i think that's only true if you don't have a chance at winning the GSL, or you can't expect to stay in code A, which those players all do. http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ for reference
read the last X editions of TL tournament wrap-ups, see the prize totals for every period, and get back to me
So total prize pools are about the same assuming small tournaments keep coming up at a similar rate. Now, who actually wins them? Take a look at prize ranking for 2011. I'd say in MC, MVP or NesTea's level, playing in Korea pays rather well:
Also, there wouldn't be a drastic shift in relative prize level since there are $ 764,000 total prize pool planned in Korea until the end of the year, which is about the size of all planned NASL, MLG, DH combined.
I understand your desire to create a truly global league, but I personally don't care if foreigners play in it or not. GSL is still awesome with koreans only and as long as the torunaments are good i will continue paying!
Wow this sounds realy awesome, hope some pros from Europe and US take that opportunity. Would love to see some of the mouz or Dignitas players over there in Korea.
Thank you su much for posting this on teamliquid GOM This is why i respect GOM so much! And that you really want to get foreigners into GSL. Mad respect! Keep up the good work gom.
On May 28 2011 02:58 snailz wrote: korea is about making money later, investment financialy and skill-wise, and europe/na is making money now. there is no excuse for not going to korea. if esports are not a fancy word that gets these nerds egos up, then by all means it should have all the rules from sports applied to it. in example, you dont decline transfer to Juventus or Arsenal cause you're doing good in porto/ajax/galatasaray and saying you're the best in the world. nobody would take you seriously, right?
No, but if you have never said you were the best in the world and those clubs offered you a third string position, with a very outside chance of playing first team football, you _might_ elect to stay in Porto or Liverpool or one of the other smaller clubs like them and remain a regular first team player.
If you truly wish to be the best pro-gamer and compete on the highest stage, then there is definitely no reason to not go to Korea.
People who use money or social reasons such as friends or family as excuses command no sympathy or respect from me. There are many korean pro-gamers who make absolutely nothing, in both sc2 and bw. All they get are living conditions and some food, and they play 12+ hours a day of constant gaming all in the hopes of qualifying for some event or playing some televised match. The sacrifices they make are tremendous, and in terms of pure desire and ambition, these guys would and SHOULD absolutely dominate any XXX-foreign guy who isn't willing to make these sacrifices.
This reminds me of what OgsLittleBoy said when he first played his match in the open seasons, in that if he recieved code A he would stay for a year or so, but if he didn't then he would go back to his hometown to farm for the rest of his life or whatever. I can only imagine the stress of being in that situation and knowing that you've bet everything on those results from endless nights practicing in net cafes.
And then I have to read about XXX and his whine about covering transportation costs or not being with friends. (which itself is the stupidest argument because unless you are a 16 year old sheltered boy then gaming should be your job and priority and moving somewhere, anywhere for a month or two is absolutely nothing, even for student, much less an adult whos doing this to pursue his hearts dream.)
When people mention money they also forget the intangible things such as reputation and fame they could go. Let's take for instance Idra. He's known as a BM progamer thats a great zerg player and arguably the most popular western player. He was also made by korea. No one would care for him if he was just random xxx foreign player playing in USA. He was known as that white boy who stood up against the scary korean players and BM'ed everyone on ladder, and now he can come back from playing top 8 in a gsl and being in code S and do whatever the hell he wishes.
Of course, the flip side is if you go and fail in the qualifiers for xxx number of times then you will be looked down upon, but those are the risks that you have to take in order to be the best, if you believe that you are.
Well, all I can say that is if you are a true competitor then you shouldn't be afraid to go to the highest stage to compete.
^THIS. He's absolutely right, if you want to be successful, stop bitching about things like language barriers and friends and make a commitment to be the best. It's not about what excuses you can come up with, its about the excuses you ignore to pursue your dream.
If you suck and fail, then lesson learned, stop trying to be a progamer and just play SC2 for fun and find a new career. Or you could actually, you know, TRY AGAIN and instead of whining about why you can't do it, shut up and just do it.
If you're not prepared to go all the way, don't even try. You won't succeed. And going all the way is the difference between a PROgamer and just a gamer.
P.S. GOM and MLG and all the recent eSports news has been a hell of a thing to see, I'm very excited for the future. I can't wait to see what happens.
I've noticed that most of the players who are saying that they would never go to Korea (incontrol, tyler, tt1) are the ones who wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of winning the thing. The tip-top foreigners are the ones who seem a lot more interested in going to korea (nani, thorzain) because they actually have a legitimate chance of not getting knocked out of code A ro32, so the trip makes alot more sense for them.
On May 28 2011 05:15 Aeruru wrote: I think the language barrier is a much bigger issue than most people give it credit for. Being a pro-gamer is a tough life and being a part of a lively SC2 community is important for their enjoyment and motivation to play the game. For a foreigner, going to Korea must be isolating. With the demanding practice schedule, there isn't a lot of time for them to learn Korean, which is a difficult language that has few uses outside of Korea. Since there wasn't much of a BW scene outside of Korea, I would guess that most Korean pro-gamers do not speak much English. (I'm actually a little surprised by this since many other Asian countries like China now have rigorous English requirements in school.)
There's nothing GOM can do to directly solve this issue but they are doing the right things to encourage more foreigners to go to Korea. When there are enough foreigners in Korea to sustain a good sized English speaking community, I'm sure more foreigners will be willing to visit for months at a time.
I'm excited about the GSL format changes and for the ability of foreigners to play as mercenaries. Thank you GOM for being willing to embrace SCII as a global playing field!
There's plenty of foreigners in Korea. I'd love to meet Tastosis! And Huk/Jinro are there. I don't speak Chinese fluently at all and I still have a great time staying in Taiwan/China for 1-2 months at a time. And you'd be surprised how accommodating Asians are to Westerners.
The fact that there is so much talk about getting more foreigners into Korea will eventually make it happen, and that is great for E-sports as a whole.
On May 28 2011 05:22 ChocoboRider.388 wrote: I understand the point you are trying to make about spreading the joys of eSports all over the world, but you are trying to bring players from MLG (a 3 day event) into GSL (I'm not sure whether they have to go through code A or straight into code S so I won't emphasis on the amount of time, but it's much longer than 2 weeks we can all agree) and no other form of league is having a "foreign exchange" program, no other countries are involved as well correct? there are many great players in Europe, Australia and China, but are these country's being reached out to as well? I'm getting off my original tangent for noting the amount of time for the tournaments, the fact is... there is more money in a MLG than GSL, and honestly, I believe there is more fame in there home country.
If i may give an example, i know many Korean players who are PRO'S! but i don't know much about the up and comers, but here in the NA I follow not only the top tippy top but also the up and comers and also a few of the wild cards and it gives me a sense of pride to cheer for them especially when they play against Korean's... no offense... just home team
But the 4 players sent to MLG from GSL are taking quite a leap of faith as well.. language/culture break and just the "lost" feeling, but they have to go through it for only 3-5 days, while players chosen from MLG have to leave their families, wives, children, friends, and responsibilities for much much longer, and even though for some this is a wonderful opportunity but, I respectfully disagree that your thoughts of this being a chance of a lifetime.
Fact of the matter, pro-gamers are in it for the money, it's their job, their meal ticket, and that's all, yes i'm sure there are more sponsorship deals available in Korea for right now but NA and EU are making huge break throughs into popular knowledge, Starcraft in general is becoming a sport.. not just an "eSport" but... a legit sporting industry that is seen by many corporations as a new method to tap into more sales. And in my opinion, there is more money to be made at home, with the family close, and team even closer and not lost in translation.
I do wish the best for the community in itself and think that the heart was in the right place for this.
How is there more money in MLG than GSL? AT mlg you win 5k if you win regardless if its a 3 day tournament, you still have to play more games then to win a whole GSL. Just because your in korea for a month doesnt mean your playing at the GSL all day everday, to win a GSL you have to show up at the gom studio five times and win.
There is no reason why a foreigner cant attend MLG and GSL if their team is cool with it, as they dont conflict with each others dates anymore, and that is why we will see koreans participating in MLG. Okay look at it this way, if you win MLG you get a seed into code s. In code s even if you get taken out in the round of 32 yoou make 1400 dollars, that is more than 95% of progamers make off of tournament winning in a month, and thats if you get knocked out in the first round and say you dont win mlg but you get a seed into code a, with the new format you only have to be in korea 5 days to know weather yoou have made it to the up and down matches or not. If yoou dont make it you got an all expenses paid trip to korea and you can go home and go back to doing your thing, if yoou do make it to the up and down matches then obviously its worth it to stay an extra week and a half - 2 weeks to give it a shot and you can still participate in your online tournaments while your in the GSL too, look at july, hes first in the NASL regardless of latency if your a decent player and you have gotten used to it you can still perform very well in online tournaments, your not going to miss out on dreamhack either as Koreans in the GSL go to that as well, so as long as your team provides travelling expenses i dont see any reason why foreigners shouldnt go to korea to give code s/a a shot, they will not miss out on anything really and if they dont make it far in code a its a very small time investment and a 0 money investment so i dont see the downside.
On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote: I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all.
i disagree that there's more money to be made outside of korea. i think that's only true if you don't have a chance at winning the GSL, or you can't expect to stay in code A, which those players all do. http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ for reference
read the last X editions of TL tournament wrap-ups, see the prize totals for every period, and get back to me
So total prize pools are about the same assuming small tournaments keep coming up at a similar rate. Now, who actually wins them? Take a look at prize ranking for 2011. I'd say in MC, MVP or NesTea's level, playing in Korea pays rather well:
Also, there wouldn't be a drastic shift in relative prize level since there are $ 764,000 total prize pool planned in Korea until the end of the year, which is about the size of all planned NASL, MLG, DH combined.
Not to mention that koreans will also be participating in all those big foreign tournaments you mentioned.
well i must say i was suprised by this intervieuw last one i wanted to (murder) him but this is very good. And great enws aswell witht he new changes. As for him attending mlg GREAT i think he will be amazed.
Betting on teams that will join gstl FXO no doubt they have way to much money they will no doubtly go
On May 28 2011 04:48 cheesemaster wrote: I really like how open gom is being and how willing they are to creat a nice environment for foreigners.
Its kind of disheartening, that we have all these negative "aggresive" as Mr.chae said (unproffesional IMO) posts towards the GSL and korea, and they are being so positive and welcoming to foreigners at the same time, I think that problem with korea post should be taken off the spotlight it should never have been there to begin with it stated alot of false / outdated information now and was quite offensive/aggresive in nature.
I agree completely. I hope Mr. Chae understands that most of those negative whine posts aren`t a true reflection of the entire foreign sc2 community. It is just some raging idiots who are very vocal about things that can`t even be controlled.
On May 28 2011 05:55 sickoota wrote: I've noticed that most of the players who are saying that they would never go to Korea (incontrol, tyler, tt1) are the ones who wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of winning the thing. The tip-top foreigners are the ones who seem a lot more interested in going to korea (nani, thorzain) because they actually have a legitimate chance of not getting knocked out of code A ro32, so the trip makes alot more sense for them.
while i'm not a super mega fan of tt1 or anything (i don't hate him, i'm just not a mega fan), i'm pretty sure, tt1 was one of the few progamers who actually apologized for the portrayal that foreigners have displayed towards the GSL, and hopes to someday go back to korea.
On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote: I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all.
i disagree that there's more money to be made outside of korea. i think that's only true if you don't have a chance at winning the GSL, or you can't expect to stay in code A, which those players all do. http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ for reference
read the last X editions of TL tournament wrap-ups, see the prize totals for every period, and get back to me
So total prize pools are about the same assuming small tournaments keep coming up at a similar rate. Now, who actually wins them? Take a look at prize ranking for 2011. I'd say in MC, MVP or NesTea's level, playing in Korea pays rather well:
Also, there wouldn't be a drastic shift in relative prize level since there are $ 764,000 total prize pool planned in Korea until the end of the year, which is about the size of all planned NASL, MLG, DH combined.
Total 'headshot' post here. If accurate, it is really illustrative.
On May 28 2011 05:55 sickoota wrote: I've noticed that most of the players who are saying that they would never go to Korea (incontrol, tyler, tt1) are the ones who wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of winning the thing. The tip-top foreigners are the ones who seem a lot more interested in going to korea (nani, thorzain) because they actually have a legitimate chance of not getting knocked out of code A ro32, so the trip makes alot more sense for them.
Yeah. From the comments in this thread you would think that a lot of players have made the claim that they could make it there, but wont go for other reasons. Except I cannot remember seeing or hearing any such claims.
Anyone that goes, I would wish them, and hope for, the best. Those that do not go have reasons that makes sense to them. Don't see the reason to pass any kind of judgement for that - unless they have made claims they are not backing up with action.
Seems be a lot of panties sitting very tight over the fact that the SC2 in EU/NA is getting so much attention these days. Can't understand that thought process. Well I guess I understand it, but I find it ridicolous.
The game coverage is exploding and people are standing in the corner going "Bwwaa, they don't deserve it. Those other guys are much better". Instead of just being happy about their game of choice generating so much action and attention - outside Korea as well. Cutting of their nose to spite their face.
The players that have a shot in Korea and assess that it is worth it, everything else in their life taken into consideration, will go there. Why is that good not enough for for anyone?
Reminds of the scene in Rounders where Matt Damon is asking John Torturro for money and Damon says he never had the balls to go for the big one, and Torturro sets him straight for judging him:
"Stones! You little punk. I'm not playin for the thrill of fuckin victory here. I owe rent. Alimony. Child Support. I play for money. My kids eat. I got stones enough not to chase cards and action or fucking pipe dreams of winning the World Series on ESPN."
Both of them are doing what they need to do. Although I doubt very few players would be old enough to be in that particular situation.
I actually want to become good enough at starcraft 2 to become at least a semi pro/pro (and do freelancing jobs on the side), and if I somehow become good enough I'll definitely think about going to korea ;o
nice writeup though, GOMtv really does care about the esports community and the foreigners ;D
I applaud this thread. GOMTV has already bent over backwards to make accommodations for foreigners and it's inspiring to see that in the face of criticism, GOMTV not only responds in a polite and appropriate manner, but even offers more accommodations to help foreigners participate in the GSL and continues to promote the expansion of e-sports as a global industry.
On May 28 2011 06:46 Bombmk wrote:Yeah. From the comments in this thread you would think that a lot of players have made the claim that they could make it there, but wont go for other reasons. Except I cannot remember seeing or hearing any such claims.
The thing is no one really dared to touch the topic. They chose to dodge the question simply by saying "Even if, it won't be worth it".
The reason lies with interviewers and show masters not asking "could you make it?" but "would you go?".
Except for a few, for whom the experience alone is priceless. Sure we have Idra saying he most probably wouldn't go back to KR in the near future. But take into consideration that he already has been there. Twice.
It is perfectly understandable, as he benefits from his time under KR training ever since. But for someone outright neglecting the biggest opportunity to elevate his play to a whole different level is astonishing.
I dont like the way sc2 esports has unfolded so far, but I do NOT fault gom for any of it. In fact, I have every season pass of goms (besides super tourney - too busy) just because I know they are trying so hard to include foriegners (plus i need my tastosis fix).
I find it harder and harder to watch gsl because of the lack of foriegners, but i really WANT them to be there.
Thanks GOM!
--------------
I want more foreigners to be in korea. To compete and be successful! Please someone step up and give it all you got !
I tried my best to solve this problem and although I admit this is not the perfect solution here it is.
Firstly, “Foreign players can now participate as a mercenary in Korean team”. You may be able to see Jinro or Huk as member of oGs-TL in team league.
Accordingly, foreign players who come to Korea through MLG League Exchange, Rakaka tournament in Sweden, or come by themselves and qualify will not only be able to participate individual league but can also participate in GSTL as part of Korean team.
I cannot “force” the Korean teams to accept foreign players to their roster and have them play at least one set per match. However, Korean teams are willing to form alliance or partnership with foreign teams and they have stated that they will be happy to accept if there is any foreign team or player willing to join force. In fact Korean teams are very eager to recruit able foreign players.
Revolution right here. Foreign Mercs!!! that sounds as good as it looks. Gom you really know what we want.
On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote: I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all.
i disagree that there's more money to be made outside of korea. i think that's only true if you don't have a chance at winning the GSL, or you can't expect to stay in code A, which those players all do. http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ for reference
read the last X editions of TL tournament wrap-ups, see the prize totals for every period, and get back to me
So total prize pools are about the same assuming small tournaments keep coming up at a similar rate. Now, who actually wins them? Take a look at prize ranking for 2011. I'd say in MC, MVP or NesTea's level, playing in Korea pays rather well:
Also, there wouldn't be a drastic shift in relative prize level since there are $ 764,000 total prize pool planned in Korea until the end of the year, which is about the size of all planned NASL, MLG, DH combined.
[/QUOTE]
I mean fuck I dont see how moon can make 7.2k and the top foreigners dont think its worth their time to go to korea. surely we have a ton of guys better than moon
On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote: I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all.
i disagree that there's more money to be made outside of korea. i think that's only true if you don't have a chance at winning the GSL, or you can't expect to stay in code A, which those players all do. http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ for reference
read the last X editions of TL tournament wrap-ups, see the prize totals for every period, and get back to me
So total prize pools are about the same assuming small tournaments keep coming up at a similar rate. Now, who actually wins them? Take a look at prize ranking for 2011. I'd say in MC, MVP or NesTea's level, playing in Korea pays rather well:
Also, there wouldn't be a drastic shift in relative prize level since there are $ 764,000 total prize pool planned in Korea until the end of the year, which is about the size of all planned NASL, MLG, DH combined.
Doesn't the tourney roundup already include DH, IEM, TSL and IPL ? Liquipedia has a tourney page I think it would be more accurate to look there, as it's very comprehensive and all the prizepools are included. But anyway, nice work, it's interresting.
On May 28 2011 05:55 sickoota wrote: I've noticed that most of the players who are saying that they would never go to Korea (incontrol, tyler, tt1) are the ones who wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of winning the thing. The tip-top foreigners are the ones who seem a lot more interested in going to korea (nani, thorzain) because they actually have a legitimate chance of not getting knocked out of code A ro32, so the trip makes alot more sense for them.
while i'm not a super mega fan of tt1 or anything (i don't hate him, i'm just not a mega fan), i'm pretty sure, tt1 was one of the few progamers who actually apologized for the portrayal that foreigners have displayed towards the GSL, and hopes to someday go back to korea.
Correct TT1 definitely didn't say what those others have said. If people are going to single him out at least check what he said.
And of course we all know the reason is more player skill than anything else. Incontrol doesn't stand a chance obviously and he was pretty against going. It's not surprising is it.
On May 28 2011 07:15 danson wrote: I mean fuck I dont see how moon can make 7.2k and the top foreigners dont think its worth their time to go to korea. surely we have a ton of guys better than moon
I mean fuck I dont see how moon can make 7.2k and the top foreigners dont think its worth their time to go to korea. surely we have a ton of guys better than moon
That's an interesting point, since Moon's career is basically what a foreigner who can't go deep in GSL would hope to imitate. But then again, if you can make all your money in foreigner tournaments and almost none in GSL, why go to Korea (especially since far and away most of Moon's money comes from IEM)?
On May 28 2011 05:55 sickoota wrote: I've noticed that most of the players who are saying that they would never go to Korea (incontrol, tyler, tt1) are the ones who wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of winning the thing. The tip-top foreigners are the ones who seem a lot more interested in going to korea (nani, thorzain) because they actually have a legitimate chance of not getting knocked out of code A ro32, so the trip makes alot more sense for them.
while i'm not a super mega fan of tt1 or anything (i don't hate him, i'm just not a mega fan), i'm pretty sure, tt1 was one of the few progamers who actually apologized for the portrayal that foreigners have displayed towards the GSL, and hopes to someday go back to korea.
Correct TT1 definitely didn't say what those others have said. If people are going to single him out at least check what he said.
And of course we all know the reason is more player skill than anything else. Incontrol doesn't stand a chance obviously and he was pretty against going. It's not surprising is it.
lol that hurts. But I have to agree. Incontrol would have a very slim chance even qualifying into Code A, much less playing in Code A. However, not all those that were against going are in the same boat as the likes of Incontrol. Take for example Idra, he has the skill (unless he has grown soft on US server) to compete and he did not wish to go back. I hope he can change his mind one day and compete long term in the GSL.
But Nani and T-Zain NEED to get to Korea and make some $$$ and gain lots of fame. Frankly, the fame you get in competing the GSL is also HIGHLY lucrative and beneficial to one's career.
Select, Kiwi, Sheth, Sen, Dimaga, White-Ra, Kas, and TLO should also think about GSL. Heck, TeamLiquid would gain so much from fielding a GSTL team...think about the exposure and crazed foreign fans that will root for TL!
I can't wait until they announce the F-team that will go into the GSTL (that would allow IM to play!); I hope it is TeamLiquid or the lethal DIGNITAS TEAM!! Whichever foreign team that gets that GSTL spot...mark my words...they will see great things in the future and many opportunities will arise for them. In other words they will become BIG just because they entered and competed in the GSTL.
On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote: I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all.
Ridiculous statement. If these same hypothetical German players named Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever as you described are doing nothing but dedicate themselves everyday 10 hours to SC2, then I bet ya they won't have a second thought about attending a big tourney such as GSL or MLG. If all you are doing is preparing for small chum changes, why even bother to dedicate that much of your life to SC2?
You don't even understand the e-sport culture in Korea and the mindset of Korean pro programmers.
in a backwards universe, players like MVP and MKP wouldn't exist in korea - they would exist in the US, simply because of the environment/culture. They weren't born this good, they were shaped.
Obviously they earned it with all their merit and practice, I can't even begin to think about the countless days they did nothing but play sc2, but they're not super-heroes, there's a reason people go to korea to improve as a player.
lets say instead of Korea ,Cuba did have the best sc2 players,MC,MVP, and host tourneys with 2000$ prizes, would the foreigners would go there? to play with best players of the world but with little money to earn?
Dont kid yourself. they would never do it. and i dont blame them.
"in a hypothetical world": lets say MLG started hosting monthly tourneys with extraordinary prizes like 150 000$ for first place, why would anyone would want to go to korea then? Even koreans would start moving to USA.
On May 28 2011 08:18 insanet wrote: Guys, is all about money.
"in a hypothetical world":
lets say instead of Korea ,Cuba did have the best sc2 players,MC,MVP, and host tourneys with 2000$ prizes, would the foreigners would go there? to play with best players of the world but with little money to earn?
Dont kid yourself. they would never do it. and i dont blame them.
"in a hypothetical world": lets say MLG started hosting monthly tourneys with extraordinary prizes like 150 000$ for first place, why would anyone would want to go to korea then? Even koreans would start moving to USA.
You see how money changes everything?
GSL pays out the most money, so you are right. In the hypothetical world USA pays out $150,000 so people would move to the USA.
Winning code A may not be much, but winning code S is $50,000 dollars in a theoretical 2 months (Enter as code A player). Thats just the prize money. Winning code S, arguably the most prestigious tournament for SC2 nets you better deals from teams and sponsors.
On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote: I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all.
Ridiculous statement. If these same hypothetical German players named Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever as you described are doing nothing but dedicate themselves everyday 10 hours to SC2, then I bet ya they won't have a second thought about attending a big tourney such as GSL or MLG. If all you are doing is preparing for small chum changes, why even bother to dedicate that much of your life to SC2?
You don't even understand the e-sport culture in Korea and the mindset of Korean pro programmers.
I think you don't understand what's he saying.
Seriously though, playing in GSL just doesn't have big advantages aside from prestige.
On May 28 2011 08:18 insanet wrote: Guys, is all about money.
"in a hypothetical world":
lets say instead of Korea ,Cuba did have the best sc2 players,MC,MVP, and host tourneys with 2000$ prizes, would the foreigners would go there? to play with best players of the world but with little money to earn?
Dont kid yourself. they would never do it. and i dont blame them.
"in a hypothetical world": lets say MLG started hosting monthly tourneys with extraordinary prizes like 150 000$ for first place, why would anyone would want to go to korea then? Even koreans would start moving to USA.
You see how money changes everything?
GSL pays out the most money, so you are right. In the hypothetical world USA pays out $150,000 so people would move to the USA.
Winning code A may not be much, but winning code S is $50,000 dollars in a theoretical 2 months (Enter as code A player). Thats just the prize money. Winning code S, arguably the most prestigious tournament for SC2 nets you better deals from teams and sponsors.
Money does change everything indeed.
4th place in Code S is about the same as winnin MLG too as far as prize goes. Even if you lose in round of 32 code S you still get the same money as 4th place at MLG.
On May 28 2011 08:48 Thrill wrote: I can't really see foreign players in GSTL working out. It would be like the worst form of affirmative action.
I'd put alot of foreign teams above Zenex and HoSeo so I'm sure they wouldn't mind a pick at a few top foreigners to flesh out their lineups. fOu Isn't that deep either.
On May 28 2011 08:48 Thrill wrote: I can't really see foreign players in GSTL working out. It would be like the worst form of affirmative action.
Why? It's unrealistic right now to expect foreigners to have their own team in GSTL (unless that potential team pans out.) It's not like Jinro and Huk aren't worthy of playing just because the rest of Team Liquid is not in Korea.
On May 28 2011 08:18 insanet wrote: Guys, is all about money.
"in a hypothetical world":
lets say instead of Korea ,Cuba did have the best sc2 players,MC,MVP, and host tourneys with 2000$ prizes, would the foreigners would go there? to play with best players of the world but with little money to earn?
Dont kid yourself. they would never do it. and i dont blame them.
"in a hypothetical world": lets say MLG started hosting monthly tourneys with extraordinary prizes like 150 000$ for first place, why would anyone would want to go to korea then? Even koreans would start moving to USA.
You see how money changes everything?
GSL pays out the most money, so you are right. In the hypothetical world USA pays out $150,000 so people would move to the USA.
Winning code A may not be much, but winning code S is $50,000 dollars in a theoretical 2 months (Enter as code A player). Thats just the prize money. Winning code S, arguably the most prestigious tournament for SC2 nets you better deals from teams and sponsors.
Money does change everything indeed.
4th place in Code S is about the same as winnin MLG too as far as prize goes. Even if you lose in round of 32 code S you still get the same money as 4th place at MLG.
Look at all the high level players that travel across countries to play in MLG. For the amount of exposure it gets, it's got a very pitiful prize pool.
People don't travel to MLG for the money, they do it for the exposure and experience. If you apply this train of thought to GSL, and compare/contrast the tournaments, It's pretty obvious that it all comes down to convenience & the length of the tournament. 99% of the participants at MLG are gonna earn less than a Code A player. If Code S was played over 3 days I think there would be a ridiculous amount of foreigner interest, they just don't want to stay there as long. But what can you really do about that? I mean aside from set the players up with practice partners, and other pro teams, and housing accomodations....come on >_>
Think of it this way. Let’s assume that there is backward universe; There is LAN tournament with equivalent size and prize pool as GSL in USA and tournaments in Korea are mostly online. If MVP, MC, Nestea and MKP were to be invited to States to participate in LAN tournament for a month(and they will be provided a place to sleep and practice like GOMTV is providing now), would they decide to go to US? I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
Statements like this makes me think GOM does not really get it, despite all their good intentions and efforts so far. He glossed over many practical issue such as
i) Who can the Koreans practice with if they were to live in the US? No player can do well in tournaments just by playing on ladder, they need practice partners that a preferably on the same server.
Let's take Naniwa for example. He mentioned he wants to go to Korea and I'm not sure how the lag and time zones will affect how he practices. I don't think GOM can much here to help him out.
ii) He didn't mention the opportunity cost of NOT being able to compete in Korea once the player leaves the country. The reality now is the prize money difference between Korea and USA/Europe is getting smaller.
A progamer's life in Korea doesn't seem very good to me unless you are top 15 in the world. Practicing SO much in a country where you don't even know the language or have any friends without a guarantee of any prize money at all is LOL.
i think people are splitting hair on things that shouldnt matter to most people.
it is up to the player to see if he wants to travel overseas to compete in a tournament. what makes it worthy is only determined by the player.
GSL could offer $1000 or $100,000, with or without housing, variables like language, finances, its all up to the player/sponsor to decide its worth.
now, what sets those prize pool and the financial availability from sponsors and hosts? industry.
with that said, its up to the players/sponsors to make the decision to travel to compete and everyone should be able to respect that. financial risk, fame, improvement, competition level, etc., all varies person to person.
however, bringing up things like "its not worth it, i want more, make it more convenient, language barrier, etc." conversation is moot. GOMTV is offering what is available, just like MLG, Dreamhack, and what is available is once again set by the limitation of the esports/sc2 industry or marketing power.
all major organizers/sponsors are trying to grow esports, thats their main goal and the players should have that in mind too.
one day maybe we'll have signings similar to football, where foreign sc2 players, thorzain for example, is offered 10 million dollars to play in korea for Samsung Fudgepackers or something. until then, the players and hosts must work with what the scene has. for now, offering players money to play (though thats not how sc2 scene works at the moment), is not likely to happen any time soon because the scene is so small in comparison to other sports and bw.
bottom line:
gom and all other organizers are doing their best to grow the scene. players should help grow the scene.
right now we're(sc2 esport) going through college, living off of $50 a month for food. until we graduate, find a job, and work hard, we can't afford luxuries(signing fee, paid stuff - housing, food, traveling, etc).
so, players, organizers, viewers should work together to grow the scene, tahts the only way to satisfy everyone.
communication, understanding each other, agreement is easier said than done, and obviously, everyone is doing their best.
(fnatic's) opinionative article just stirred up unnecessary attention, to a point where i think the author should write another article to clear things up. (or not, no biggie)
Even if a player doesn't win that much money from 2 or 3 months in SK he will improve so much and if they let a world team in GSTL then it's the best practice and competition anyone can get.
If they commit to 3 months practice they can even succeed and stay there like huk and jinro and previously idra. There is more chances now then some months ago lets see if someone grabs it.
When they go back they will be much better players.
I am glad he brought up the changes he did. I think though, in response to him saying that MVP, MC, Nestea, ETC would go to the states for a big tournament if it existed there, it's incorrect. If the big tournaments were being held in the states and not in Korea, then the progaming teams would exist in the states and not in Korea. I don't mean progaming teams like ROOT. I mean progaming teams like Startale, or SlayerS, who have 12-15 members living in a single house and practice 10 hours a day to compete. That type of lifestyle is not as viable in the states right now because of the lack of presence of the sc2 scene. IMMvp and MC would have an every day life that they have to live and wouldn't be able to travel to the states to do so. This difference may not last too much longer though, as ROOT does have a gaming house (for three members) and so does FXO. But it's still not quite what Korea's is.
I would just like to take 5 seconds and thank gom for all their hard-work, it's not everyday that you see a company who will bend and break to every little thing the community asks for
I think the problem will almost solve itself. As price pools in Europe and North America grow it will become more attractive for Koreans to make the trip abroad. But this will also make it so that those tournaments aren't considered "easy money" anymore. So Europeans, Americans and others are forced to participate in the (presumably) toughest competiotion GSL to not fall behind. Of course this only holds true as long as Korea stays the toughest competition.
:sigh: All I can say is good luck to GOM. If GOM had not open up it would’ve also been criticized. There’s just no way to win some people over for some reason, it’s always me vs you. Were trying to build a united community and mainstream e-sport here folks.
First of all, I'd have to say Chae Jung Won and GOM are awesome for taking this initiative!
Now, for my thoughts on the culture barriers: It has been mentioned a few times that there needs to be more integration of foreigners and I agree whole heartedly. If I've understood correctly, Korean society is very focused on social networks, and that's why most North Korean refugees to South Korea very quickly join a church and also why non-religious Koreans ouside of Korea attend church. It's more about social networking than religion. Perhaps you, as a Korean, even have a hard time believing that there should be so much difference between Korean society and European/American societies. It feels really weird telling a Korean what kind of society Korea has, and I don't mean any disresepect by it (after all, you know it much better than I do), but this is how it is perceived by many in the West and, for the purpose of understanding why foreigners leave Korea, it's obviously important to understand how they perceive the difference between the cultures.
As for Western cultures, they are very much based on individuality, which means that social networks don't play such a huge role and the really close personal networks, like friends and family, feel more important. Which again means, that if you're without your friends and family, you feel quite alone. A Westerner can't just easily search out a church or whatever for a social network of acquiaintances, because what he needs is not acquaintances, but friends.
So my proposal is to try to make him some friends, and not only practice partners. What about trying to organize a kind of "friendship club" or something? The goal would be that a bunch of Koreans would hang out with the foreigners, taking them out to do stuff, translating menus and whatnot and basically show them a good time and be their friends. In return, the Koreans would get valuable English practice, since the foreigners, naturally, would only know English (or Swedish or something, but I guess English would be the really valuable language here). These friends don't have to be the practice partners from their practice house, but could just as well be students who wish to improve their English or employees who wish to brush up on their English skills, or even cultural skills. Best of all, it would be practically free, only requiring an initial effort to organize it, so that things can get going.
Finding friends can sometimes be difficult, especially if one doesn't know the language and culture. Being able to go somewhere and say "Hey, I need some friends" and being pointed at some people and being told "Okay, befriend those guys" can sometimes be much easier - and surprisingly succesful.
In short, I think what GOM is doing is awesome and that being invited should be viewed as a great opportunity to get to know a new culture while doing what one is passionate about. But GOM should appreciate how lonely foreigners feel when they don't have friends to hang out with and do something to help the foreigners get into a social life in Korea. Moreover, thinking outside of GOM's structure, like looking for university students or employees of a partner company in order to find those friends, might ultimately prove more succesful in keeping foreigners in Korea than any realistic amount of monetary incentives.
On May 28 2011 09:55 iMAniaC wrote: As for Western cultures, they are very much based on individuality, which means that social networks don't play such a huge role and the really close personal networks, like friends and family, feel more important. Which again means, that if you're without your friends and family, you feel quite alone. A Westerner can't just easily search out a church or whatever for a social network of acquiaintances, because what he needs is not acquaintances, but friends.
Huh? American culture is ALL about networking. Networking >>> education in terms of getting a job.
If anything, the focus on individualism causes people to ALIENATE their family and focus more on career building. Family is far more important in Asia (as someone who is closely familiar with both cultures.) Western society focuses on the nuclear family unit, whereas Asia/South America tends to have your extended family living together.
My dad and uncles all take turns having my grandmother living with them, whichever is most convenient for her (they move between China and Taiwan a lot, where-ever business takes them.) If they were in the West, they'd dump her in an old folk's home.
This is not implying Westerners do not love their family or any of that non-sense, but your theory is simply not true, especially in the US (don't know much about European culture so can't comment on that.)
On May 28 2011 09:55 iMAniaC wrote: As for Western cultures, they are very much based on individuality, which means that social networks don't play such a huge role and the really close personal networks, like friends and family, feel more important. Which again means, that if you're without your friends and family, you feel quite alone. A Westerner can't just easily search out a church or whatever for a social network of acquiaintances, because what he needs is not acquaintances, but friends.
Huh? American culture is ALL about networking. Networking >>> education in terms of getting a job.
If anything, the focus on individualism causes people to ALIENATE their family and focus more on career building. Family is far more important in Asia (as someone who is closely familiar with both cultures.) Western society focuses on the nuclear family unit, whereas Asia/South America tends to have your extended family living together.
My dad and uncles all take turns having my grandmother living with them, whichever is most convenient for her (they move between China and Taiwan a lot, where-ever business takes them.) If they were in the West, they'd dump her in an old folk's home.
This is not implying Westerners do not love their family or any of that non-sense, but your theory is simply not true, especially in the US (don't know much about European culture so can't comment on that.)
Not to stray too much off the original topic, as a european with asian origin and relatives living in the US, pretty much everything you have said was correct. As for europe, the status quo too consists of 2 parents 1-2 children, with a tendency of not having children at all.
The only thing is you can be just as much as a pro if you stay out of korea. You can still earn money and still become great, spending so much time in Korea and get nowhere like most foreigners do can seem like a waste of time especially since the foreigners numbers are dwindling so rapidly anyways.
On May 28 2011 05:55 sickoota wrote: I've noticed that most of the players who are saying that they would never go to Korea (incontrol, tyler, tt1) are the ones who wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of winning the thing. The tip-top foreigners are the ones who seem a lot more interested in going to korea (nani, thorzain) because they actually have a legitimate chance of not getting knocked out of code A ro32, so the trip makes alot more sense for them.
while i'm not a super mega fan of tt1 or anything (i don't hate him, i'm just not a mega fan), i'm pretty sure, tt1 was one of the few progamers who actually apologized for the portrayal that foreigners have displayed towards the GSL, and hopes to someday go back to korea.
Correct TT1 definitely didn't say what those others have said. If people are going to single him out at least check what he said.
And of course we all know the reason is more player skill than anything else. Incontrol doesn't stand a chance obviously and he was pretty against going. It's not surprising is it.
lol that hurts. But I have to agree. Incontrol would have a very slim chance even qualifying into Code A, much less playing in Code A. However, not all those that were against going are in the same boat as the likes of Incontrol. Take for example Idra, he has the skill (unless he has grown soft on US server) to compete and he did not wish to go back. I hope he can change his mind one day and compete long term in the GSL.
But Nani and T-Zain NEED to get to Korea and make some $$$ and gain lots of fame. Frankly, the fame you get in competing the GSL is also HIGHLY lucrative and beneficial to one's career.
Select, Kiwi, Sheth, Sen, Dimaga, White-Ra, Kas, and TLO should also think about GSL. Heck, TeamLiquid would gain so much from fielding a GSTL team...think about the exposure and crazed foreign fans that will root for TL!
I can't wait until they announce the F-team that will go into the GSTL (that would allow IM to play!); I hope it is TeamLiquid or the lethal DIGNITAS TEAM!! Whichever foreign team that gets that GSTL spot...mark my words...they will see great things in the future and many opportunities will arise for them. In other words they will become BIG just because they entered and competed in the GSTL.
I think you're my favourite poster =)
I think it's fairly simple, IF you want to be the best damn player accept EVERY big tournament invite, it's good for you, it's good for your team.
Tournaments don't clash very often from what I've seen and now GSL is even so kind to put in a weekend off for MLG, it happened once where IdrA couldn't make it to Dreamhack as far as I know, but now that many Koreans are going there as well they'll take a weekend off for that as well I'm guessing or just move some matches around. Koreans perform very well in the NASL from cross server, don't think you can't compete in tournaments like this if you live in Korea. If you have EU account if I'm not totally wrong you can still play in the weekly cups and earn a buck. I don't know why Jinro and HuK ignored NASL that's their problem if they can't change their sleep schedule or whatever to play A game per week on another server.
Pros of going to Korea +You'll get better +You'll get more exposure +Your team will get more exposure +You have the chance of the most prizemoney +You can basically still play in all of the big lans +You can still play in online leagues/qualifiers +Oppurtunity of a lifetime
Cons If you truly are a "pro" player there shouldn't be any cons. The only con I had was before reading DoAs post was about practice partners but that didn't seem like a stretch at all just talk to people and have something set up.
I also feel that foreign teams should give their players out in Korea a better salary as their exposure is far greater for them than what players only in EU/NA get.
imo give all Korean players EU/NA accounts and have them join ALL the regular cups, hopefully they'll demolish and foreigner finally can start getting off their arses and actually strive to be the best damn player.
Koreans have had the same time with Sc2 as the foreigners, their time has been spent better because they actually want to be the best and probably have the most effective setup. China also doing the same cause they know what it takes to become the best at something. I thought USA would have that winner mentality since they have that in regular sports but in eSports they seem to have the worst attitude (not saying all of em) but those who I've seen express their opinion on the matter.
Where is that winner mentality foreigner guys? Being satisfied with top 8 or whatever at MLGs and stuff like that is okay if you're playing the game just for fun. If you're a pro you should always aim for gold.
I'd hate to see anyone placing 1-4 in MLG turning down their invites to the GSL Code S and Code A.
And that is why I'll cheer for Dignitas.Naniwa, the Koreans and anyone else not being ludacris about a month hopefully longer in a foreign country all expenses (except food) paid this upcoming event.
i think that the decision to let foreigners play as a mercenary for korean teams in the GSTL is a phenominal decision, if other foreigner teams entered a house with a korean team like oGs and Liquid have done, i think things could really start to pick up.
imagine oGs-Liquid vs EG-SlayerS or IM-Dignitas for examples
how amazing it would be to watch that!!! :D
i think this decision is a step in the right direction for GSL
It's awesome you guys at GOM have taken steps to respond to concerns you've seen voiced by us foreigners. The mercenary system is an excellent idea,I think some players will be up to producing results with the opportunity that has been given to them. It is great to see GOM trying to make their tournaments as inclusive as possible.
I wondered if anyone over at GOM read the threads that had been posted, I'm glad there is such openness coming from so many companies involved in SC2, (mostly GOM and MLG) addressing issues up front and with more candor than I would expect.
On May 28 2011 10:40 Champi wrote: i think that the decision to let foreigners play as a mercenary for korean teams in the GSTL is a phenominal decision, if other foreigner teams entered a house with a korean team like oGs and Liquid have done, i think things could really start to pick up.
imagine oGs-Liquid vs EG-SlayerS or IM-Dignitas for examples
how amazing it would be to watch that!!! :D
i think this decision is a step in the right direction for GSL
IM-Dignitas would be so sick and Mouz-SlayerS would be better. EG players seem very anti Korea and anti becoming the best player.
Don't forget about Startale-Empire and Fnatic-MVP! xD
When it comes to foreigner pros there is players like Huk, Jinro, Naniwa that play for the prestige (and money comes with and has a second place) and then players like Idra who play for the money at first (inb4 i get flamed by Idra fan-boys). Yes it is harder to win GSL however that should make it more rewarding, and offers more to international e-sports, also since IPL/NASL are mostly online you can play from korea and do well if you are really good (check July, NaDa, Boxer, Zenio--beat Idra in ZvZ with infestor micro)...living in Korea and doing NASL/IPL/MLG is possible and it should be done mroe often (also Huk/Jinro should play in next NASL/IPL).
I think his point was that that stuff didn't matter enough to affect the decisions of MC/MKP/Nestea/MVP. They have the drive and desire to play on the biggest stage for the biggest prize, akin to what HuK and Jinro are doing in Korea, and all that other stuff comes 2nd to competing
Which is fine when it's not costing you an arm and a leg to be out in korea. In order for it not to be super expensive, to have practice partners, to be able to deal with the cultural barriers, and to be able to still participate in the foreign scene.
-Super expensive: This can be taken care of if either gsl just flat out pays expenses...which to some extent they are willing to do, so I don't think this is the largest and only barrier.
GOMTV is paying the bill for top 4 MLG and that European cup winner
- Practice partners: This one can be an issue, as mentioned in the xeris post most teams houses are full, and that makes it difficult for a foreign player going to korea to have a good practice schedule and people to play with. So for this to work the korean teams need to be accepting enough of foreign players to give them people to play with, or a foreign team has to move to korea to participate as an entire unit.
see DoA reply a few page back, MVP and Squirtle helped the foreigner trained during GSL WC, if that's not a good practice partner I dont know what is
- Cultural barriers: Without someone to essentially show you around and 'take care of you' in the sense of translating for you, or showing you where to go or not to go...there is little for you to do aside play sc2 in korea. Frankly speaking much of someones time probably would be spent playing, but they still need the occasional distraction, food, people to chat with. So essentially for a foreign player they need other foreigners there who can spend the time to show them around and help them with issues.
its called getting out of your comfort zone, as a foreigner living in foreign country for the past 10 years I can tell you its not easy but its highly possible
- Participating in foreign tournaments: This one is kind of big and the one gom can do the least about...however even when people like idra were there foreigners ran into issues with gom's schedule and the foreign scene. Gom was not always 100% accommodating to foreigners living in koreans want to go to other tournaments. Even if they were the only thing you could participate in practically would be the weekend lans, all internet based tournaments such as IPL/NASL/weekly cups would all be off limits just due to latency issues between korea and NA/EU/LA servers.
go to nasl.tv go to standing see who are the top 2/3 on each division qed
i believe that the foreign scene will not go anywhere "UNLESS" they goto Korea to the special Korean tactics..
Everyone can keep saying that the foreigners are getting close to the elite SC2 player but that's only because blizzard made everything easy for them (MBS, infinite unit select etc..) as soon as this game gets older new labour techniques will be found (remember that increase ur mineral count by 7% technique? i bet you blizzard patched that because they know koreans would be good at this it consistently with vigorous training. Then the world will fall behind.. Skilled players goto Korea and take the risk.. life is about taking risk and people who can't leave behind their friends and family then I say you people are classified as pussies...
I myself travelled internationally as a student to other countries.. different cultures and new exploration.. Yes people will mock you for ur origin culture but I don't care, I am proud of it and I know they are proud of theirs.. Maybe because these players are too proud of their own culture they are scared to be mocked by other people about it.. Lol
From a financial standpoint as far as a player's immediate future is concerned, I will admit that it does not make much sense for a foreigner to travel to Korea to compete. However, I think that many people drastically undervalue the growth in skill a player will receive if he moves to Korea, especially with the new system whereby foreigners will be much more able to live in the houses of Korean pro teams.
That said, I really feel that it is unfortunate that so professional players place such a high value on monetary gain. The truth is that if you want to compete to prove that you are the absolute best in the world RIGHT NOW, then you need to move to Korea and play in the GSL. Now I understand that some players like IdrA have priorities that are different to this, such as helping the western e-sports scene grow, and in addition there are also players focusing on things like education in the immediate future and are therefore not currently trying to prove they are the best. But from a spectator's standpoint it is quite disappointing that there are so few foreigners who have the drive and motivation to be on top. I hope that players like Naniwa and Thorzain will lead the way in this regard and show just why they have gained so many fans - their determination to be the best that they can be has risen their play levels above nearly every other foreigner, and, hopefully to Korea as well.
As an aside, I know there is some speculation in this thread about which foreign team may be the most likely to be moving some or all of their players to Korea in the near future. Among those brought up have been Dignitas and Fnatic. I, for one, hope that it is indeed Dignitas that will be going out of those two teams because I believe Fnatic's skill level to be much lower than many other foreign teams, and it would be greatly disappointing as a foreign fan for a foreigner team to move to Korea and just get obliterated week-in and week-out in the team league. I mean no offense to Fnatic, of course, but I just don't see their team competing at the same level as a Korean team.
Great post. Very clear that GOM is doing their best to accommodate foreigners, unfortunately this isn't a perfect world and there will always be some issues. Also very cool to see the e-sports scene growing more and more.
I myself travelled internationally as a student to other countries.. different cultures and new exploration.. Yes people will mock you for ur origin culture but I don't care, I am proud of it and I know they are proud of theirs.. Maybe because these players are too proud of their own culture they are scared to be mocked by other people about it.. Lol
I have never seen this happen in Japan, nor from the many Koreans I've met here.
It's actually quite easy to get in contact with people who are open to foreigners both in Japan and Korea, even if you don't speak the language.
I love that Mr. Chae is going to MLG. I don't know if this is an issue, but it'll be nice of Bomber, MMA, and the others have some help with logistics.
As to the overall post, thank you for sharing your concerns and that news regarding foreigners possibly joining with Korean teams. That would be very fun to watch. I always love to hear MC call HuK crazy as well as HuK's NASL video interviews.
On May 27 2011 22:23 DoA wrote: Mr. Chae is easily one of the hardest working people in E-sports and everyone that enjoys the GSL owes him a lot.
One topic I wanted to briefly chime in on is the subject of forgiegn players not getting good practice partners in Korea. The new rules with the GSTL are great, but I feel that it should be made clear that it was already easy to get Korean players to practice with. During the GSL world championships I know for a fact that MorroW played with ST_Squirtle, Sen practiced with IM_MVP and ST_Bomber played practice games with a number of people as well. cArn even lived in the MVP house for a time. All you have to do is ask and something can be set up. The Korean players were excited to get to practice with foreigners.
So my point is this, if you're a player and the only thing holding you back from coming (that is, money and other tournaments aren't an issue for you) is the worry over if you'll have practice partners or just be stuck on the KR ladder, don't worry. The Korean players want to play with you!
Heck, I even 4v4ed with Rainbow once...
For anyone who missed that, i would like to highlight DoA's post once more, since he is certainly more educated on that matter than most of us.
Love this post. A mate and good response to Xeris. While everyone complains about problems with the foreign scene and the GSL, you should remember that GSL is what has gotten sc2's progaming scene to take off nicely. The rate at which this is going, sc2 reaching BW level is possible to a certain extent and not impossible as thought of earlier.
Cheers to GOMTv and to them trying to find a suitable solution for the foreigner situation.
GSL should focus more in Asia. The time zones are more suitable and the growth of esport in Asia is accelerating. Taiwan's TeSL is awesome and they recently invited July to play couple show match and the players had shown ability to play in high level. They already have their own pro-teams which play league weekly so it will be much easier to complete in GSTL. China esport scene has also been blooming, they have tons of good players. I don't understand why GSL keep focusing on the West when there's plenty of opportunities right beside them. There's plenty of viewers in Asia following the GSL, and I don't know why GSL keep looking over them.
On May 28 2011 12:09 skullhoof wrote: GSL should focus more in Asia. The time zones are more suitable and the growth of esport in Asia is accelerating. Taiwan's TeSL is awesome and they recently invited July to play couple show match and the players had shown ability to play in high level. They already have their own pro-teams which play league weekly so it will be much easier to complete in GSTL. China esport scene has also been blooming, they have tons of good players. I don't understand why GSL keep focusing on the West when there's plenty of opportunities right beside them. There's plenty of viewers in Asia following the GSL, and I don't know why GSL keep looking over them.
Cause dollar is much more powerful and west has people well enough to pay to watch sc2? Korea/china/Taiwan has no one that will pay to play. the maybe make almost as much in gomtv.net with 100k-ish viewers as in Korea with half a million viewers.
On May 28 2011 12:09 skullhoof wrote: GSL should focus more in Asia. The time zones are more suitable and the growth of esport in Asia is accelerating. Taiwan's TeSL is awesome and they recently invited July to play couple show match and the players had shown ability to play in high level. They already have their own pro-teams which play league weekly so it will be much easier to complete in GSTL. China esport scene has also been blooming, they have tons of good players. I don't understand why GSL keep focusing on the West when there's plenty of opportunities right beside them. There's plenty of viewers in Asia following the GSL, and I don't know why GSL keep looking over them.
Gom is working on an official Chinese stream for gsl.
On May 27 2011 22:23 DoA wrote: Mr. Chae is easily one of the hardest working people in E-sports and everyone that enjoys the GSL owes him a lot.
One topic I wanted to briefly chime in on is the subject of forgiegn players not getting good practice partners in Korea. The new rules with the GSTL are great, but I feel that it should be made clear that it was already easy to get Korean players to practice with. During the GSL world championships I know for a fact that MorroW played with ST_Squirtle, Sen practiced with IM_MVP and ST_Bomber played practice games with a number of people as well. cArn even lived in the MVP house for a time. All you have to do is ask and something can be set up. The Korean players were excited to get to practice with foreigners.
So my point is this, if you're a player and the only thing holding you back from coming (that is, money and other tournaments aren't an issue for you) is the worry over if you'll have practice partners or just be stuck on the KR ladder, don't worry. The Korean players want to play with you!
Heck, I even 4v4ed with Rainbow once...
For anyone who missed that, i would like to highlight DoA's post once more, since he is certainly more educated on that matter than most of us.
Haha, DoA's post made me feel really happy for some reason. It's nice to see that Korean players are so willing to play with foreigners. On the flip side, it makes the Fnatic articles seem even more flawed, since those articles actually brought up practice partners as a problem -_-
Xeris was using recent Brood War experiences as a backbone to his remarks. It's a flaw in itself. Like I said, as long as teams and players take initiative they would be fine. Look at what TL did with oGs, or what vT Torch did with ST. Give me a break, we already have an exchange program going. Start taking initiative.
On May 28 2011 12:09 skullhoof wrote: GSL should focus more in Asia. The time zones are more suitable and the growth of esport in Asia is accelerating. Taiwan's TeSL is awesome and they recently invited July to play couple show match and the players had shown ability to play in high level. They already have their own pro-teams which play league weekly so it will be much easier to complete in GSTL. China esport scene has also been blooming, they have tons of good players. I don't understand why GSL keep focusing on the West when there's plenty of opportunities right beside them. There's plenty of viewers in Asia following the GSL, and I don't know why GSL keep looking over them.
Cause dollar is much more powerful and west has people well enough to pay to watch sc2? Korea/china/Taiwan has no one that will pay to play. the maybe make almost as much in gomtv.net with 100k-ish viewers as in Korea with half a million viewers.
Lol if esport depends on pay to watch, then there will be no esport. The key source of income is sponsors,China and Taiwan has huge enough demand for e-products(ram,keyboard,cpu etc.) which are the main sponsors of esport, after all it is much easier for korean's local products to export to nearer market and than to the West which already have they own establish brand.
but now remeber: foreigners have also to show results, dont blame GOM if foregeiners do porrly on gsl, gsl is already super competitive as it is, GOM is doing the best they can...
No matter the results of these discussions, the truly positive thing is that gom is willing to talk and listen to foreign opinion. Massive props to you guys for trying to help e-sports grow globally.
I would like to see a change to GSTL. I believe players should only play 1 match win or lose. The team league is to see who has the best TEAM not the best player. Too often 1 player is winning 3 or 4 games in a row. It removes the entire team strategy and team flavor of the tourney and also involves less players. Theoretically myself and 3 other bronze players can team with OGSMC and win a GSTL. That should never be a possibility in a team league.
The format should be winner of last match picks his player first and then other team chooses opponent. This continues throughout each match.This gives coaches a greater responsibility of knowing their team, picking the right opponents, the right times, and gets all the players involved.
Like golf rider cup, you dont see Tiger Woods doing "all kills". He plays his match and it has the same weight as all the other matchups going on.
On May 28 2011 13:37 Romble wrote: I would like to see a change to GSTL. I believe players should only play 1 match win or lose. The team league is to see who has the best TEAM not the best player. Too often 1 player is winning 3 or 4 games in a row. It removes the entire team strategy and team flavor of the tourney and also involves less players. Theoretically myself and 3 other bronze players can team with OGSMC and win a GSTL. That should never be a possibility in a team league.
The format should be winner of last match picks his player first and then other team chooses opponent. This continues throughout each match.This gives coaches a greater responsibility of knowing their team, picking the right opponents, the right times, and gets all the players involved.
Like golf rider cup, you dont see Tiger Woods doing "all kills". He plays his match and it has the same weight as all the other matchups going on.
Heh MC and 6 other Code S players Haven't been able to do it so far. The problem with how you argue is that specific players are able to set up sniping builds for specific players on specific maps. It doesn't always work out but I find the way it is done currently is the most exciting way to do it.
On May 28 2011 12:09 skullhoof wrote: GSL should focus more in Asia. The time zones are more suitable and the growth of esport in Asia is accelerating. Taiwan's TeSL is awesome and they recently invited July to play couple show match and the players had shown ability to play in high level. They already have their own pro-teams which play league weekly so it will be much easier to complete in GSTL. China esport scene has also been blooming, they have tons of good players. I don't understand why GSL keep focusing on the West when there's plenty of opportunities right beside them. There's plenty of viewers in Asia following the GSL, and I don't know why GSL keep looking over them.
Cause dollar is much more powerful and west has people well enough to pay to watch sc2? Korea/china/Taiwan has no one that will pay to play. the maybe make almost as much in gomtv.net with 100k-ish viewers as in Korea with half a million viewers.
Lol if esport depends on pay to watch, then there will be no esport. The key source of income is sponsors,China and Taiwan has huge enough demand for e-products(ram,keyboard,cpu etc.) which are the main sponsors of esport, after all it is much easier for korean's local products to export to nearer market and than to the West which already have they own establish brand.
Correct. Just yesterday as I bought something to drink at 7/11 in Taipei, I saw them selling a mouse with the portrait of July on it :D
On May 28 2011 13:37 Romble wrote: I would like to see a change to GSTL. I believe players should only play 1 match win or lose. The team league is to see who has the best TEAM not the best player. Too often 1 player is winning 3 or 4 games in a row. It removes the entire team strategy and team flavor of the tourney and also involves less players. Theoretically myself and 3 other bronze players can team with OGSMC and win a GSTL. That should never be a possibility in a team league.
The format should be winner of last match picks his player first and then other team chooses opponent. This continues throughout each match.This gives coaches a greater responsibility of knowing their team, picking the right opponents, the right times, and gets all the players involved.
Like golf rider cup, you dont see Tiger Woods doing "all kills". He plays his match and it has the same weight as all the other matchups going on.
You'll probably find that you're a minority here. Most people love the winners format, it provides way more excitement.
Wow this is awesome. Naniwa already said he wants to go, I wonder whether Korean teams "adopting" foreign players will convince more to go- solves the problem of housing and playing with Korean pros in the same house is probably really beneficial practice wise.
On May 28 2011 13:37 Romble wrote: I would like to see a change to GSTL. I believe players should only play 1 match win or lose. The team league is to see who has the best TEAM not the best player. Too often 1 player is winning 3 or 4 games in a row. It removes the entire team strategy and team flavor of the tourney and also involves less players. Theoretically myself and 3 other bronze players can team with OGSMC and win a GSTL. That should never be a possibility in a team league.
The format should be winner of last match picks his player first and then other team chooses opponent. This continues throughout each match.This gives coaches a greater responsibility of knowing their team, picking the right opponents, the right times, and gets all the players involved.
Like golf rider cup, you dont see Tiger Woods doing "all kills". He plays his match and it has the same weight as all the other matchups going on.
I think the current rules make for interesting matches though. like the gstl finals, which have all been awesome, all going to the final ace match.
Team strategy has to consider the opposing team's 'ace' players. They should have a couple players prepared for the match up on specific maps. We've seen this from Slayers_Frozen w/ his blink 'abuse' on taldarim altar(Although he didnt actually get to face off the 'ace' of team MVP, you get the jist). Its also 'better' to watch your favorite player play more game.
At least for me, it would be slightly dissapointing to see bomber dominate the opposing player and has to leave the booth because of the rules. I want to see as many of his games as possible.
But then again, eveyone wants different things and its impossible to please everyone at the same time.
Edit: was it slayers frozen? might be remembering it wrong.
On May 27 2011 22:23 DoA wrote: Mr. Chae is easily one of the hardest working people in E-sports and everyone that enjoys the GSL owes him a lot.
One topic I wanted to briefly chime in on is the subject of forgiegn players not getting good practice partners in Korea. The new rules with the GSTL are great, but I feel that it should be made clear that it was already easy to get Korean players to practice with. During the GSL world championships I know for a fact that MorroW played with ST_Squirtle, Sen practiced with IM_MVP and ST_Bomber played practice games with a number of people as well. cArn even lived in the MVP house for a time. All you have to do is ask and something can be set up. The Korean players were excited to get to practice with foreigners.
So my point is this, if you're a player and the only thing holding you back from coming (that is, money and other tournaments aren't an issue for you) is the worry over if you'll have practice partners or just be stuck on the KR ladder, don't worry. The Korean players want to play with you!
Heck, I even 4v4ed with Rainbow once...
Thank you DOa, when i said that it shouldnt be hard to find korean practice partners if you actually take the initiative, people crisitized me saying i knew nothing about korea, and obviously xeris knew more on the matter than me. But i would say Doa knows far more on the matter then him
Everytime i see a korean get interviewed and asked about foreigners they always say they want to play with more foreigners and play in more foreign tournaments so i could see them being really happy about practicing with foreigners to get a different perspective on the way the game is played. On top of that with the MLG exchange program there will be 4-5 foreigners in the house at least to practice with, and im sure if your nice to jinro and huk they would help you as well and maybe they could even inquire about you practicing in the OGS house now and then.
I think even just with 4-5 foreigners in the gom house the practice situation would be already alot better than alot of foreign players have playing in NA.
On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote: I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all.
i disagree that there's more money to be made outside of korea. i think that's only true if you don't have a chance at winning the GSL, or you can't expect to stay in code A, which those players all do. http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/ for reference
read the last X editions of TL tournament wrap-ups, see the prize totals for every period, and get back to me
So total prize pools are about the same assuming small tournaments keep coming up at a similar rate. Now, who actually wins them? Take a look at prize ranking for 2011. I'd say in MC, MVP or NesTea's level, playing in Korea pays rather well:
Also, there wouldn't be a drastic shift in relative prize level since there are $ 764,000 total prize pool planned in Korea until the end of the year, which is about the size of all planned NASL, MLG, DH combined.
Doesn't the tourney roundup already include DH, IEM, TSL and IPL ? Liquipedia has a tourney page I think it would be more accurate to look there, as it's very comprehensive and all the prizepools are included. But anyway, nice work, it's interresting.
I did subtract those tournaments from Tournament Roudup.
On May 28 2011 05:27 SlayerSBriefS wrote: If you truly wish to be the best pro-gamer and compete on the highest stage, then there is definitely no reason to not go to Korea.
People who use money or social reasons such as friends or family as excuses command no sympathy or respect from me. There are many korean pro-gamers who make absolutely nothing, in both sc2 and bw. All they get are living conditions and some food, and they play 12+ hours a day of constant gaming all in the hopes of qualifying for some event or playing some televised match. The sacrifices they make are tremendous, and in terms of pure desire and ambition, these guys would and SHOULD absolutely dominate any XXX-foreign guy who isn't willing to make these sacrifices.
This reminds me of what OgsLittleBoy said when he first played his match in the open seasons, in that if he recieved code A he would stay for a year or so, but if he didn't then he would go back to his hometown to farm for the rest of his life or whatever. I can only imagine the stress of being in that situation and knowing that you've bet everything on those results from endless nights practicing in net cafes.
And then I have to read about XXX and his whine about covering transportation costs or not being with friends. (which itself is the stupidest argument because unless you are a 16 year old sheltered boy then gaming should be your job and priority and moving somewhere, anywhere for a month or two is absolutely nothing, even for student, much less an adult whos doing this to pursue his hearts dream.)
When people mention money they also forget the intangible things such as reputation and fame they could go. Let's take for instance Idra. He's known as a BM progamer thats a great zerg player and arguably the most popular western player. He was also made by korea. No one would care for him if he was just random xxx foreign player playing in USA. He was known as that white boy who stood up against the scary korean players and BM'ed everyone on ladder, and now he can come back from playing top 8 in a gsl and being in code S and do whatever the hell he wishes.
Of course, the flip side is if you go and fail in the qualifiers for xxx number of times then you will be looked down upon, but those are the risks that you have to take in order to be the best, if you believe that you are.
Well, all I can say that is if you are a true competitor then you shouldn't be afraid to go to the highest stage to compete.
People who use money or social reasons such as friends or family as excuses. Friends and family is very important to day do day life, it is taken for granted when they are there but when not it is not nice. Idra left because he had no support one or two friends a hand full of practice partners and almost no one to talk english with.
At the end of the day money is a bad reason to do something without other things to back it up as it reputation. Life alone is not a good life, take it from someone who knows and those were dark years.
There is no reason to move to South Korea and isolate oneself from people for the best money or reputation when one can have loved ones around for less money and less reputation. This is why people are reluctant to move to South Korea for months a time.
On May 27 2011 22:23 DoA wrote: Mr. Chae is easily one of the hardest working people in E-sports and everyone that enjoys the GSL owes him a lot.
One topic I wanted to briefly chime in on is the subject of forgiegn players not getting good practice partners in Korea. The new rules with the GSTL are great, but I feel that it should be made clear that it was already easy to get Korean players to practice with. During the GSL world championships I know for a fact that MorroW played with ST_Squirtle, Sen practiced with IM_MVP and ST_Bomber played practice games with a number of people as well. cArn even lived in the MVP house for a time. All you have to do is ask and something can be set up. The Korean players were excited to get to practice with foreigners.
So my point is this, if you're a player and the only thing holding you back from coming (that is, money and other tournaments aren't an issue for you) is the worry over if you'll have practice partners or just be stuck on the KR ladder, don't worry. The Korean players want to play with you!
Heck, I even 4v4ed with Rainbow once...
Thanks for the info DOA. Wow all this info is really making FNatic's management look pretty bad, lol. Two pretty obnoxious articles from them that lacked research.
On May 28 2011 15:10 sinjitsu_ wrote: This post was quite touching for some reason lol.
If you want something, go get it, is basically what he is saying.
OPPORTUNITY !! Glory is sacrifice !!
That doesn't compute for Americans. The American Dream is based on an idea of self-entitlement without much sacrifice.
Fuck self-entitlement and sacrifice I can sacrifice my self for 50,000 US. a year or not sacrifice myself for 32,000 US. and have a better life. No self-entitlement needed. Just a good life.
On May 28 2011 05:27 SlayerSBriefS wrote: If you truly wish to be the best pro-gamer and compete on the highest stage, then there is definitely no reason to not go to Korea.
People who use money or social reasons such as friends or family as excuses command no sympathy or respect from me. There are many korean pro-gamers who make absolutely nothing, in both sc2 and bw. All they get are living conditions and some food, and they play 12+ hours a day of constant gaming all in the hopes of qualifying for some event or playing some televised match. The sacrifices they make are tremendous, and in terms of pure desire and ambition, these guys would and SHOULD absolutely dominate any XXX-foreign guy who isn't willing to make these sacrifices.
This reminds me of what OgsLittleBoy said when he first played his match in the open seasons, in that if he recieved code A he would stay for a year or so, but if he didn't then he would go back to his hometown to farm for the rest of his life or whatever. I can only imagine the stress of being in that situation and knowing that you've bet everything on those results from endless nights practicing in net cafes.
And then I have to read about XXX and his whine about covering transportation costs or not being with friends. (which itself is the stupidest argument because unless you are a 16 year old sheltered boy then gaming should be your job and priority and moving somewhere, anywhere for a month or two is absolutely nothing, even for student, much less an adult whos doing this to pursue his hearts dream.)
When people mention money they also forget the intangible things such as reputation and fame they could go. Let's take for instance Idra. He's known as a BM progamer thats a great zerg player and arguably the most popular western player. He was also made by korea. No one would care for him if he was just random xxx foreign player playing in USA. He was known as that white boy who stood up against the scary korean players and BM'ed everyone on ladder, and now he can come back from playing top 8 in a gsl and being in code S and do whatever the hell he wishes.
Of course, the flip side is if you go and fail in the qualifiers for xxx number of times then you will be looked down upon, but those are the risks that you have to take in order to be the best, if you believe that you are.
Well, all I can say that is if you are a true competitor then you shouldn't be afraid to go to the highest stage to compete.
People who use money or social reasons such as friends or family as excuses. Friends and family is very important to day do day life, it is taken for granted when they are there but when not it is not nice. Idra left because he had no support one or two friends a hand full of practice partners and almost no one to talk english with.
At the end of the day money is a bad reason to do something without other things to back it up as it reputation. Life alone is not a good life, take it from someone who knows and those were dark years.
There is no reason to move to South Korea and isolate oneself from people for the best money or reputation when one can have loved ones around for less money and less reputation. This is why people are reluctant to move to South Korea for months a time.
Wow you speak as though being in Korea means they'll have zero contact with friends or family. We live in the modern day now, where there is email, instant messaging, SKYPE, VIDEO CHAT. I mean a lot of these pro gamers are friends with each other over the internet anyways. On top of that, what's to say they wouldn't meet new friends in Korea?
It's like college, do you really think about your friends back home or how you'll be away from family? Most people I know go somewhere away from home, and meet new friends.
I agree with you that money alone is a bad idea to do anything, but I think Korea presents a really great opportunity to grow both as a gamer and as an individual. How often in life will someone PAY for you to go to their country? It's ONLY one month. I mean even 2-3 months isn't THAT big of a deal to be honest, but then maybe I'm a more international person than most.
On May 28 2011 15:10 sinjitsu_ wrote: This post was quite touching for some reason lol.
If you want something, go get it, is basically what he is saying.
OPPORTUNITY !! Glory is sacrifice !!
That doesn't compute for Americans. The American Dream is based on an idea of self-entitlement without much sacrifice.
lol wtf man. besides idra and select maybe, there are barely any tip top players here. i agree with tyler and incontrol, it would be silly for them to go to korea unless it made them a lot better. not to mention the "american dream" is "rags to riches"
much respect to the way this was handled. more respect to GSL for acknowledging our concerns and engaging the community on a way to improve it. well done to the max, ya i just used to the max
On May 28 2011 15:10 sinjitsu_ wrote: This post was quite touching for some reason lol.
If you want something, go get it, is basically what he is saying.
OPPORTUNITY !! Glory is sacrifice !!
That doesn't compute for Americans. The American Dream is based on an idea of self-entitlement without much sacrifice.
There currently are not many top tier American players, I mean who do you expect to go to Korea? Idra already went there, the players that would make the BIGGEST impact currently in the GSL from the foreign scene would not be americans... I mean the two foreigners in the GSL arent even Americans right now, and the top players that would go would be guys like Naniwa, Thorzain, Whitera, Dimaga, etc.
It really disappoints me that often people think of only America when it comes to the 'foreign scene', or wonder why there is not a great amount of Americans in the GSL.
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: Hello Teamliquid
My name is Chae Jung Won and I’m both GSL Code S commentator and manager of GSL operation team. (...) However my interview that was posted on PlayXP was response regarding an anonymous Fnatic person’s answer concerning Super Tournament, who gave reasons such as “1month is too long” “prize pool is not deep enough” “there is language barrier”. I was little startled when the interview was posted as the tone was much more aggressive than I actually had felt. At the time I was doing the interview, my feelings were more like “hmm? Interesting”. (...)
You don't respond to the 1 month concern and do not even mention the 2 week period you gave foreigners to respond to the invitation, which said Fanatic person cited as his most important reason.
Why would you "respond" to the Fanatic person and yet not address any of his concerns? All you do is complain about his tone.
I understand that tone and respect are very important to koreans, but this is unacceptable.
Great post! I can't wait to hear more about foreign teams/players competing in Korea. It's been evident from Day 1 that GOM was trying to accommodate foreign players and grow the scene into something international. The cost of travel will always be a barrier, but getting to compete in Korea should be such a tremendous draw that with your help, more fantastic foreign players will make the trip.
It's true that a lot of the problems are things Gomtv can't really solve, but that doesn't make them not problems. Right now foreigner players have a certain lifestyle: live near their friends and family, play online and fly out to major LANs. This lifestyle just doesn't fit into the GSL very well. Its not the GSL's fault, we all love the GSL. It has the best format for producing solid competition with great production. It just doesn't fit very well into the foreigner scene.
That said, there are those who want to go to korea to compete, and its really awesome how much GOM is doing for those players <3. However, there's no reason we should expect every good player to want to go to korea, its a matter of the particular interests and priorities of the individual player and that player's team/sponsors.
I think GOM's approach is very good: help those who are willing to commit to competing in korea, but don't worry overmuch about attracting foreign talent that will probably prefer to stay at home regardless of what GOM does.
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: Hello Teamliquid
My name is Chae Jung Won and I’m both GSL Code S commentator and manager of GSL operation team. (...) However my interview that was posted on PlayXP was response regarding an anonymous Fnatic person’s answer concerning Super Tournament, who gave reasons such as “1month is too long” “prize pool is not deep enough” “there is language barrier”. I was little startled when the interview was posted as the tone was much more aggressive than I actually had felt. At the time I was doing the interview, my feelings were more like “hmm? Interesting”. (...)
You don't respond to the 1 month concern and do not even mention the 2 week period you gave foreigners to respond to the invitation, which said Fanatic person cited as his most important reason.
Why would you "respond" to the Fanatic person and yet not address any of his concerns? All you do is complain about his tone.
I understand that tone and respect are very important to koreans, but this is unacceptable.
Oh, shut up. Don't talk about stuff when you're massively uninformed. The Fnatic articles had tons of concerns that were COMPLETELY out of Gom's hands. Getting used to culture? Language barrier? Cost of living in Korea? Finding practice partners? Note that with all these concerns was the undertone that Korea needs to do something to help. Hah. If I was Mr. Chae I'd be more than a little startled - I'd be offended (props to him for being so diplomatic in all this). He DOES address some of the concerns that the Fnatic articles brought up. He also expresses confusion at how some the concerns are over things that Gom has absolutely no control over, and very rightly so.
He didn't specifically mention the "1 month concern" and the "2 week period he gave foreigners to respond" because he had tons of better stuff to offer to the table. His post had a very respectful tone, so I have no idea what you're talking about in that regard.
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: Hello Teamliquid
My name is Chae Jung Won and I’m both GSL Code S commentator and manager of GSL operation team. (...) However my interview that was posted on PlayXP was response regarding an anonymous Fnatic person’s answer concerning Super Tournament, who gave reasons such as “1month is too long” “prize pool is not deep enough” “there is language barrier”. I was little startled when the interview was posted as the tone was much more aggressive than I actually had felt. At the time I was doing the interview, my feelings were more like “hmm? Interesting”. (...)
You don't respond to the 1 month concern and do not even mention the 2 week period you gave foreigners to respond to the invitation, which said Fanatic person cited as his most important reason.
Why would you "respond" to the Fanatic person and yet not address any of his concerns? All you do is complain about his tone.
I understand that tone and respect are very important to koreans, but this is unacceptable.
Oh, shut up. Don't talk about stuff when you're massively uninformed. The Fnatic articles had tons of concerns that were COMPLETELY out of Gom's hands. Getting used to culture? Language barrier? Cost of living in Korea? Finding practice partners? Note that with all these concerns was the undertone that Korea needs to do something to help. Hah. If I was Mr. Chae I'd be more than a little startled - I'd be offended (props to him for being so diplomatic in all this). He DOES address some of the concerns that the Fnatic articles brought up. He also expresses confusion at how some the concerns are over things that Gom has absolutely no control over, and very rightly so.
He didn't specifically mention the "1 month concern" and the "2 week period he gave foreigners to respond" because he had tons of better stuff to offer to the table. His post had a very respectful tone, so I have no idea what you're talking about in that regard.
I think he addressed it indirectly as the thing they want to do better.
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: Hello Teamliquid
My name is Chae Jung Won and I’m both GSL Code S commentator and manager of GSL operation team. (...) However my interview that was posted on PlayXP was response regarding an anonymous Fnatic person’s answer concerning Super Tournament, who gave reasons such as “1month is too long” “prize pool is not deep enough” “there is language barrier”. I was little startled when the interview was posted as the tone was much more aggressive than I actually had felt. At the time I was doing the interview, my feelings were more like “hmm? Interesting”. (...)
You don't respond to the 1 month concern and do not even mention the 2 week period you gave foreigners to respond to the invitation, which said Fanatic person cited as his most important reason.
Why would you "respond" to the Fanatic person and yet not address any of his concerns? All you do is complain about his tone.
I understand that tone and respect are very important to koreans, but this is unacceptable.
Oh, shut up. Don't talk about stuff when you're massively uninformed. The Fnatic articles had tons of concerns that were COMPLETELY out of Gom's hands. Getting used to culture? Language barrier? Cost of living in Korea? Finding practice partners? Note that with all these concerns was the undertone that Korea needs to do something to help. Hah. If I was Mr. Chae I'd be more than a little startled - I'd be offended (props to him for being so diplomatic in all this). He DOES address some of the concerns that the Fnatic articles brought up. He also expresses confusion at how some the concerns are over things that Gom has absolutely no control over, and very rightly so.
He didn't specifically mention the "1 month concern" and the "2 week period he gave foreigners to respond" because he had tons of better stuff to offer to the table. His post had a very respectful tone, so I have no idea what you're talking about in that regard.
I think he addressed it indirectly as the thing they want to do better.
Yeah, I agree. I just reread it and I caught that. It just bugs me to see Gom pretty much bending over to accomodate the foreign scene and facilitate good relations, and then we have really self-entitled articles complaining about problems that Gom can't even solve along with ignorant users that go as far as criticize Mr. Chae (for somehow being "disrespectful", no less) for doing so much to help.
[Edited out a bunch of stuff that was just a mess]
I still think that having "friendship clubs" or something like it would be a good idea.
In fact, having friendship clubs, seems to be a solution for both those who say going to Korea is hard and those who say it's not. If the argument is that it's hard because you don't have any friends, then a friendship club could fix that. If the argument is that it's easy to move to a new place, because one makes new friends, then a friendship club is a means to that end.
I think this is a great way to extend E-Sports to a much higher level. The word "opportunity" seems very important here and GomTV gives those willingliy to players all around the world. They don't have to do this, but could simply stick with their previous system or even go back to SC1 reality. I like this a lot, it will push players, teams and the whole RTS world. There might be some issues, but that's ok. It's a new way they want to go and the details are not set in stone.
And I also like the respect he shows to foreign players. Many foreigners are still under the impression that koreans must feel something special or greater then themselves, but that's not true as you can see here. Ty for making this point clear.
On May 28 2011 18:20 Vei wrote: Mm I completely disagree... 1 month for a chance at 50,000$ requires you to abandon ALL other job commitments. That's a huge deal.
on then contrary, you can still teach/coach starcraft 2. you can still participate in online tournaments such as NASL or some of the weekly cups. It may be inconvenient but it is still very viable and available. What you lose is the opportunity to LANs if/when the dates overlap with GSL events. However, that shouldn't be too much of a problem seeing as to how GSL is the premier LAN event in sc2 right now.
On May 28 2011 09:55 iMAniaC wrote: Same bla bla bla
pretty much everything you have said was correct.
Hahaha, even in consecutive posts Perhaps it just goes to show that we're all different or that we look at things from different angles (or, perhaps, that I generalized too much). Regardless of whether I'm really correct or wrong, I still think that having "friendship clubs" or something like it would be a good idea.
In fact, having friendship clubs, seems to be a solution for both those who say going to Korea is hard and those who say it's not. If the argument is that it's hard because you don't have any friends, then a friendship club could fix that. If the argument is that it's easy to move to a new place, because one makes new friends, then a friendship club is a means to that end.
Err, he quoted me and was referring to me (that I was right.) He even re-affirmed my points and said the European family unit is a nuclear family unit. Not sure why you feel the need to cut up posts instead of just leaving the quotes untouched and in context.
I think the player leasing to teams is a great idea as it is very difficult for a foreign team to have reason to send enough players to Korea (Though FXO was just announced?), but it should increase popularity amongst foreigners as we may see some non-koreans play.
There are so many tournaments in other places around the world and these teams often consist of players from very different locations it is almost impossible to field a whole team in one place for a LAN tournament. It will also mean that the foreigners that do venture to Korea to try to get Code A or S will have something else to train for rather than having to wait for a month every time you are knocked out of or do not qualify for the main GSL tournaments. I think from what I have read in interviews from players that have already being to Korea that this has been a large factor as to why players leave Korea after not succeeding in qualifying for each GSL.
My only hope is that the foreigners will be high enough level for it to be viable for them to play on Korean teams. I'm sure Zenex would not mind having someone like Naniwa play for them though.
On May 28 2011 18:35 Ocedic wrote: Err, he quoted me and was referring to me (that I was right.) He even re-affirmed my points and said the European family unit is a nuclear family unit. Not sure why you feel the need to cut up posts instead of just leaving the quotes untouched and in context.
Eh, what? * Doublechecks * Oh, lawl. Well, that was a serious brainfart from my side. Well, I'd like to call it an honest mistake, but it was a brainfart, no point denying that (although it was a brainfart that lead to an honest mistake). Damn, I even thought "Neat, TL.net has a function that if you quote two posts serially, the last one will incorporate the first one" ... Ugh, I'm gonna go back to bed. After I edit my post
Still think friendship clubs would be neat idea, though.
This are obviously brilliant news and another step towards the right direction. I enjoy the GSTL quite a lot and seeing the format being "extended" while allowing foreign players and whole teams to participate without any of the previous limitations can only be good.
I'll be looking forward to see if we get some of the top Korean teams contacting the top foreign players to incorporate them on their lineup. Im sure that there will be solutions to please everyone involved, including foreign sponsors and pro teams contracts so we can see some of the best in the world showing up in the future.
I'm convinced that we will see a lot of Swedes and Europeans in Korea soon, I'm sure they will jump at the chance at an adventure like that. But I don't see any of Americans going over, they're more concerned about making money than anything else.
And now FXO shows the world how to properly build upon the foreigner's heritage in KR. With Jinro & Huk as merely the most present generation to open up new paths and relationships, FXO will themselves make history by just doing it.
If you read their announcement thread, you will come to realise what the real problem is. It's not Korea, it's certainly not GOM. It's this:
On May 28 2011 18:00 hiawatha wrote: tbh I would've liked to see dignitas instead, but this is great for foreigners obviously yadda yadda etc Also, is oGs ever planning on using their TL players in the Team League? Are they even allowed to do so?
On May 28 2011 18:00 Moonling wrote: i was hoping for Dignitas i feel they are a stronger team but GL to FxO maybe they can prove me wrong and show some competition in the GSTL
On May 28 2011 18:01 falafelnr1 wrote: Not to be hating, but I think they are gonna get whopped hard But still really cool with a foreign team in GSTL. GL !
On May 28 2011 18:01 Fionn wrote: Eh, happy we have a foreign team, but to be honest, they'll more than likely lose all their games. I don't think they have anyone on their team who is Code S level currently. They'll even have trouble beating ZeNex, who compared to FXO, at least has a guy like Byun.
On May 28 2011 18:01 fearlessparagon wrote: Anybody believe that fxo is gonna get knocked out the first round?
Seriously people, what is wrong with you. All this "That'll never work, I'd rather not try at all". If I'm completely honest, I don't even care if FXO will achieve anything.
On May 28 2011 18:00 FXOpen wrote: After visiting Korea myself in February with Moonglade, I decided that Korea is the place to at least visit for any foreign player, even if the restrictions are high and even if it is contrary to what the broader community would like to believe.
The atmosphere, the training environment, the practice teams, its all a very major part in making players great. This type of environment we do not see in the western e-sports scene YET. We feel that it is important for our players to not only experience this, but nurture it fully, altogether at once.
It comes to a point now where all talk is futile. People move along. They may or may not be successful, but that has never been part of a journey. If you choose the comfort of your own appartement that's fine. Just be assured that there is a world outside of the cage and any amount of time away is full of new possibilities- to grow as a human being.
Best of luck to FXO, and greetings to everybody who may join them along the way!
On May 28 2011 18:20 Vei wrote: Mm I completely disagree... 1 month for a chance at 50,000$ requires you to abandon ALL other job commitments. That's a huge deal.
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: Hello Teamliquid
My name is Chae Jung Won and I’m both GSL Code S commentator and manager of GSL operation team. (...) However my interview that was posted on PlayXP was response regarding an anonymous Fnatic person’s answer concerning Super Tournament, who gave reasons such as “1month is too long” “prize pool is not deep enough” “there is language barrier”. I was little startled when the interview was posted as the tone was much more aggressive than I actually had felt. At the time I was doing the interview, my feelings were more like “hmm? Interesting”. (...)
You don't respond to the 1 month concern and do not even mention the 2 week period you gave foreigners to respond to the invitation, which said Fanatic person cited as his most important reason.
Why would you "respond" to the Fanatic person and yet not address any of his concerns? All you do is complain about his tone.
I understand that tone and respect are very important to koreans, but this is unacceptable.
why should he respond to false concerns ?
1. you only will be there for one month if you have a chance to go to code S through up and down, if you lose in round of 32 you can leave in only 1 week
2. Fnatic was invited 1 month in advance, not 2 week. The same amount of time they got for the GSL WC which they seems more than happy to send Sen and TT1
On May 28 2011 17:52 iMAniaC wrote: [Edited out a bunch of stuff that was just a mess] I still think that having "friendship clubs" or something like it would be a good idea.
In fact, having friendship clubs, seems to be a solution for both those who say going to Korea is hard and those who say it's not. If the argument is that it's hard because you don't have any friends, then a friendship club could fix that. If the argument is that it's easy to move to a new place, because one makes new friends, then a friendship club is a means to that end.
Friendship clubs? Are you fucking serious? The people over in Korea and at GOM are reading this thread.
Can people please stop with the fucking friendship clubs already? Are you insinuating the foreigners will be lonely or that it's too difficult to become friends with Koreans because of the language barrier?
If you cannot make friends with the Koreans or you're having difficulty, that is YOUR problem. Not GOM's, not the Koreans. YOURS. You are NOT there to speak in Korean 8-12 hours a day. The only language you need to speak is STARCRAFT 2. Gom is not there to socially calibrate you or teach you how to build basic human relationships. Holy shit.
As for practice partners: did you not read DoA's post? Korean pros are more than willing to help as practice partners. Having practice games with IMMvp? You do not need a friendship club or years of Korean language classes to make that happen.
On May 28 2011 17:52 iMAniaC wrote: [Edited out a bunch of stuff that was just a mess] I still think that having "friendship clubs" or something like it would be a good idea.
In fact, having friendship clubs, seems to be a solution for both those who say going to Korea is hard and those who say it's not. If the argument is that it's hard because you don't have any friends, then a friendship club could fix that. If the argument is that it's easy to move to a new place, because one makes new friends, then a friendship club is a means to that end.
Friendship clubs? Are you fucking serious? The people over in Korea and at GOM are reading this thread.
Can people please stop with the fucking friendship clubs already? Are you insinuating the foreigners will be lonely or that it's too difficult to become friends with Koreans because of the language barrier?
If you cannot make friends with the Koreans or you're having difficulty, that is YOUR problem. Not GOM's, not the Koreans. YOURS. You are NOT there to speak in Korean 8-12 hours a day. The only language you need to speak is STARCRAFT 2. Gom is not there to socially calibrate you or teach you how to build basic human relationships. Holy shit.
As for practice partners: did you not read DoA's post? Korean pros are more than willing to help as practice partners. Having practice games with IMMvp? You do not need a friendship club or years of Korean language classes to make that happen.
This is so true. I can't believe people are complaining about a lack of FRIENDS. If you share a common interest with someone, you will find a way to become friends, barrier or not. It seems alot of people whining about friendship clubs are just generally inadequete at making friends with anyone thats different from themselves. Its really dissapointing that supposed loniliness is being tossed around as a reason that Gom isn't doing enough. God damn, learn to develop some social skills.
On May 28 2011 17:52 iMAniaC wrote: [Edited out a bunch of stuff that was just a mess] I still think that having "friendship clubs" or something like it would be a good idea.
In fact, having friendship clubs, seems to be a solution for both those who say going to Korea is hard and those who say it's not. If the argument is that it's hard because you don't have any friends, then a friendship club could fix that. If the argument is that it's easy to move to a new place, because one makes new friends, then a friendship club is a means to that end.
Friendship clubs? Are you fucking serious? The people over in Korea and at GOM are reading this thread.
Can people please stop with the fucking friendship clubs already? Are you insinuating the foreigners will be lonely or that it's too difficult to become friends with Koreans because of the language barrier?
If you cannot make friends with the Koreans or you're having difficulty, that is YOUR problem. Not GOM's, not the Koreans. YOURS. You are NOT there to speak in Korean 8-12 hours a day. The only language you need to speak is STARCRAFT 2. Gom is not there to socially calibrate you or teach you how to build basic human relationships. Holy shit.
As for practice partners: did you not read DoA's post? Korean pros are more than willing to help as practice partners. Having practice games with IMMvp? You do not need a friendship club or years of Korean language classes to make that happen.
Thank you for keeping it real and bringing light to an otherwise dim subject. People have started to view participating in the korean tournaments as if they were every gamers' right to do so. However, life is so much more complicated than that and we should all appreciate the great lengths both the korean scene and foreign scenes are taking to evolve esports.
As you said, 10 years ago no one could have ever really comprehended how big Starcraft is becoming and where it seems to be headed. Thanks for your great work and clearing some of the misinformation!
"Friendship club" is one of the most embarrassing terms I have ever heard. What happened to people being... y'know... socially adept? Or how about the fact that Korean progamers are nice guys and are down for practicing with you, and DoA's post indicates?
God, some people just want to treat foreigners like little kids who need their hands held with everything now. Friendship clubs... ugh.
While we're on the topic of how Westerners don't wanna go to Korea cos there's alot more money in the West, why doesn't Savior just go "FUCK IT I"M GONNA PLAY SC2" and then just fly to the West and rape up MLG a little bit while picking up some mercenary caaaaash.
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: Hello Teamliquid
My name is Chae Jung Won and I’m both GSL Code S commentator and manager of GSL operation team.
I’ve been reading the recent threads which have been posted at teamliquid.net. Lot of foreign players have listed the reasons for why it’s difficult for them to come to Korea and participate in GSL. While I understand some of these, I do not understand others.
First of all I want make it clear that the purpose of this thread is not to rebut the posts I mentioned above. The decision whether to make sacrifices to attend a tournament which is extremely competitive or not is completely up to one’s own and I respect that. The only thing I’m upset about is that most of the reasons mentioned are something GOMTV can’t solve(I doubt anyone can), and as for the problems that can be solved, GOMTV is doing its best to find solution. It’s just that this is easier said than done, because there are many things that needs to be considered, lot more than people realize.
Think of it this way. Let’s assume that there is backward universe; There is LAN tournament with equivalent size and prize pool as GSL in USA and tournaments in Korea are mostly online. If MVP, MC, Nestea and MKP were to be invited to States to participate in LAN tournament for a month(and they will be provided a place to sleep and practice like GOMTV is providing now), would they decide to go to US? I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
I am also aware that reaction on Korean community sites about foreign players declining invitation to Super Tournament because of its schedule have been translated and posted on teamliquid.net. There seems to be misunderstanding and it must be made clear that those opinions were solely about Super Tournament. I understand that in GSL regular season, making it to Code S beginning from Code A is very difficult for foreign players as there is too much to risk, and that is why we made League Exchange program with MLG. However my interview that was posted on PlayXP was response regarding an anonymous Fnatic person’s answer concerning Super Tournament, who gave reasons such as “1month is too long” “prize pool is not deep enough” “there is language barrier”. I was little startled when the interview was posted as the tone was much more aggressive than I actually had felt. At the time I was doing the interview, my feelings were more like “hmm? Interesting”.
Now enough about the misunderstanding, as I’m sure many of you are tired of it as there was discussion thread about it for a week. I’ll move on the good news.
As many of you are aware new GSL format will be applied in July. I’ve read many posts on teamliquid.net that people want to see more GSTL and also poll between GSL and GSTL. There have been many same requests from Koreans too and after long consideration I have changed the format more focusing on team leagues.
However the problem with new format is that it makes it difficult for foreign teams to participate in team league as they will have to stay in Korea for 2 months.
I tried my best to solve this problem and although I admit this is not the perfect solution here it is.
Firstly, “Foreign players can now participate as a mercenary in Korean team”. You may be able to see Jinro or Huk as member of oGs-TL in team league.
Accordingly, foreign players who come to Korea through MLG League Exchange, Rakaka tournament in Sweden, or come by themselves and qualify will not only be able to participate individual league but can also participate in GSTL as part of Korean team.
I cannot “force” the Korean teams to accept foreign players to their roster and have them play at least one set per match. However, Korean teams are willing to form alliance or partnership with foreign teams and they have stated that they will be happy to accept if there is any foreign team or player willing to join force. In fact Korean teams are very eager to recruit able foreign players.
If any foreign player who is entering GSL individual league and also wants to be part of team league feel free to contact either me or my assistant John. Through cooperation with Korean teams you will be provided with better practicing environment and opportunity to be part of GSTL.
Also I am open to idea of non-Korean team coming to Korean and play in GSTL. I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you.
I have provided “opportunity” through “system”, and “opportunity” is all that I can provide. Creating “results” is not my job but up to the players themselves, through their will and amount of practice.
Super Tournament is being held at the moment. I am always open to your opinions. I do not want SC2 to be just Korean e-sports thing like Brood War was. My goal is to make a league which viewers all around the world can enjoy and get hyped when watching.
I was 1st generation pro-gamer myself(I’m still in TLPD) and have been working in e-sports over 10 years.
Many of things that are happening now in e-sports are changes that never happened in past 10 years. I’m sure that you too feel that e-sports is evolving rapidly. If e-sports players and technology is running at 100km/h and if GSL and other tournaments can keep up with the speed we can create many wonderful things which we only dreamed of past 10 years.
I’m always grateful to viewers who watch GSL. I will soon get back to you with great news Also I will be attending MLG Columbus together with players from Korea. I have decided to go to MLG to witness the enthusiasm of American fans with my own eyes.
Thank you
First and obviously the most important: You are fucking awesome. Post and the bit of casting I have seen (even though I don't speak Korean).
Second: The only issue now is flexibility in schedule. Will the GSL take a break when a "big" tournament takes place. If everyone works together esports will grow exponentially, but if everyone must make that one choice GSL or one foreign event then we will suffer. At most I believe for the "big" events it would be two weekends per GSL season that might be interrupted and typically 1. Thank you for your time here and paying attention to teamliquid.net.
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: Hello Teamliquid
My name is Chae Jung Won and I’m both GSL Code S commentator and manager of GSL operation team. (...) However my interview that was posted on PlayXP was response regarding an anonymous Fnatic person’s answer concerning Super Tournament, who gave reasons such as “1month is too long” “prize pool is not deep enough” “there is language barrier”. I was little startled when the interview was posted as the tone was much more aggressive than I actually had felt. At the time I was doing the interview, my feelings were more like “hmm? Interesting”. (...)
You don't respond to the 1 month concern and do not even mention the 2 week period you gave foreigners to respond to the invitation, which said Fanatic person cited as his most important reason.
Why would you "respond" to the Fanatic person and yet not address any of his concerns? All you do is complain about his tone.
I understand that tone and respect are very important to koreans, but this is unacceptable.
why should he respond to false concerns ?
1. you only will be there for one month if you have a chance to go to code S through up and down, if you lose in round of 32 you can leave in only 1 week
2. Fnatic was invited 1 month in advance, not 2 week. The same amount of time they got for the GSL WC which they seems more than happy to send Sen and TT1
Can't agree more... I don't see why more than 1 month of time is needed. 1 month is plenty of time to decide to send your players then make arrangements to live in the GOM house, buy tickets and everything.
On May 28 2011 17:52 iMAniaC wrote: [Edited out a bunch of stuff that was just a mess] I still think that having "friendship clubs" or something like it would be a good idea.
In fact, having friendship clubs, seems to be a solution for both those who say going to Korea is hard and those who say it's not. If the argument is that it's hard because you don't have any friends, then a friendship club could fix that. If the argument is that it's easy to move to a new place, because one makes new friends, then a friendship club is a means to that end.
Friendship clubs? Are you fucking serious? The people over in Korea and at GOM are reading this thread.
Can people please stop with the fucking friendship clubs already? Are you insinuating the foreigners will be lonely or that it's too difficult to become friends with Koreans because of the language barrier?
If you cannot make friends with the Koreans or you're having difficulty, that is YOUR problem. Not GOM's, not the Koreans. YOURS. You are NOT there to speak in Korean 8-12 hours a day. The only language you need to speak is STARCRAFT 2. Gom is not there to socially calibrate you or teach you how to build basic human relationships. Holy shit.
As for practice partners: did you not read DoA's post? Korean pros are more than willing to help as practice partners. Having practice games with IMMvp? You do not need a friendship club or years of Korean language classes to make that happen.
Friendship Clubs is a truly pampered western cuddly soft and pink Carebear idea.
If you move to Korea you do it to play Starcraft and not to party and drink with others. Just as Cella said in his interview ... you need to basically give up friends to become a pro.
You cant get through life without sacrifices and you cant reach any top career without many of those. Grow up and deal with it!
On May 28 2011 17:52 iMAniaC wrote: [Edited out a bunch of stuff that was just a mess] I still think that having "friendship clubs" or something like it would be a good idea.
In fact, having friendship clubs, seems to be a solution for both those who say going to Korea is hard and those who say it's not. If the argument is that it's hard because you don't have any friends, then a friendship club could fix that. If the argument is that it's easy to move to a new place, because one makes new friends, then a friendship club is a means to that end.
Friendship clubs? Are you fucking serious? The people over in Korea and at GOM are reading this thread.
Can people please stop with the fucking friendship clubs already? Are you insinuating the foreigners will be lonely or that it's too difficult to become friends with Koreans because of the language barrier?
If you cannot make friends with the Koreans or you're having difficulty, that is YOUR problem. Not GOM's, not the Koreans. YOURS. You are NOT there to speak in Korean 8-12 hours a day. The only language you need to speak is STARCRAFT 2. Gom is not there to socially calibrate you or teach you how to build basic human relationships. Holy shit.
As for practice partners: did you not read DoA's post? Korean pros are more than willing to help as practice partners. Having practice games with IMMvp? You do not need a friendship club or years of Korean language classes to make that happen.
So obviously, "friendship clubs" was not a popular idea. For the record: I did not mean that they should speak Korean, but rather English, and I did not mean that they should spend entire days together every day, but rather meet up in the evening after their respective 12 hour practice/work/university days and have a beer or whatever, like people do with their real friends. That being said, I state this only to clarify my original meaning and I realize that the details themselves don't matter much (so we don't have to discuss them for my sake) as it's the essence of this cuddly soft and pink Carebear idea which you obviously find repulsive.
Moreover, it does seem to me that all of your questions are purely rhetoric, so unless I misinterpreted your intentions or there's something else you would actually like me to answer, I'm gonna "stop with the fucking friendship clubs already" (as in not answering posts which don't contain actual questions. But I'd just like to point it out beforehand, so you don't think I'm trolling if I don't answer).
Well this will be insulting to some pro's but this is just my opinion:
I think the reason pro-gamers in the west are whining about how hard korea is and bladibladiblaa on friends/language/whatever is because they just make excuses. Lets face it, this started somewhat thanks to the collosal fail of Haypro/Ret whose fans then in the shadow of Jinro/Huk/Idra started whining about shit that wasn't related. There is no bullshit hardship in korea, not incase you're a normal and nice person, I mean for gods sake IDRA had friends and had no problems in Korea... why would anyone else?
But what we got what Incontrol whining and Bill'O'Reily-ranting on the korean scene and code A making half the community suddenly believe that korea is the worst thing to hit e-sports.
As I said alot of pages back and people agreed with; The only reason westerners are not going to korea is that they can make more money whilst performing less in the west. Now I can't judge how these people are in real life and I understand them somewhat, but I for one dislike and really have no respect for people like InControl who don't want koreans in MLG because "they'll never drop out" or will "dominate it", well tough shit for you, awesome for ME, the VIEWER and the majority of the community: If you're getting your ass kicked then fucking practice and win, stop whining at koreans/korea. As someone said; There are people in Code A who when they get to pick players choose former champions or top names... they want to prove themselves and fight against the very best. All I hear from half the american community is fucking whining about the skill of koreans. For fuck sake even Sweden owns you and we're a country of 9 million, New York itself should produce more nerds than our entire country. Yet what you guys have is people like InControl who can't keep his mouth shut for five minutes without bashing or insulting something that is vastly superior to anything he'd achieve.
Now I agree Code A should change its pricemoney, it's retarded having it at 1500$. But for someone like me who is a poor student and pay for both GSL/NASL I feel insulted as a viewer and as a member of the community when all these bullshit excuses come up about Korea when it's just about pure greed and economics. You might make alot of money but in due time you'll lose fans. I've travelled alot in my life and I can't for the life of me see how a month in korea couldn't be the best thing to happen to a pro-gamer, if you're so lonely then go there with 1 other person you know and just play ladder and explore Soel, from what I see on US streams and the opponents of Idra etc. just practicing on the korean ladder should be a boost in anyones overall skill level.
GOM has gone beyond what I could reasonably expect from them in terms of accomodating non korean foreigners and fans alike.
Code S prizes could be adjusted to be a bit less top heavy but that's the socialist swede in me talking. Code A is fine. It's a qualifier, nothing more. It would be like players whining that you don't get any money from the group play in NASL or IGN. Exactly the same arguments can be applied so please for the love of everything people, drop it. Code A prize pool is fine. In fact it might even be better if they remove all monetary rewards from Code A so people don't have any misgivings.
As others have said, GOM is paying every mlg top 4 to fly to korea for a month and participate. Who the hell would turn that down? Seriously?
FREE TRIP TO KOREA!
Just think about that for a moment.
If you get rolled in Code A or Code S due to bad luck, which can happen, then you can spend the rest of the month practicing with koreans or if you miss mother too much FLY BACK. People don't seem to realize the opportunity this presents, who exactly would be crippled financially for training with top dogs for one month? It's not a 10 year commitment, it's 30 fucking days.
I am new to the e-sport scene and I have been subscribing to Gom TV (I also subscribed to NASL). I am your targeted customer.
First and foremost I find Xeris's post in regards to your tournament is inappropriate. Blaming organizer for their own inabilities is lame on the public forum. It struck to me as if there is some hidden agenda as to the purpose of the post. You are completely right on the fact that all of the reasoning's are to not be resolved by the organizers and are in fact personal issues that they find difficult to deal with.
But is Korea really for everyone? It is like pro basketball players in other countries debating whether or not to play (or bench..) in the NBA.... Some see potential in their own growth and may be a learning experience, will be willing to take the risk involved, but a little more established players will find that risk a little too much, as they can see immediate success and return in their comfort zone.
I can not speak for E-sports as a whole, but having foreign players in GSL will definitely increase viewership and recognition for your league, AND for the foreign player (team). There should be no dispute as to the level of recognition of the GSL is higher than ANY other leagues in e-sports at the moment. I am not saying the other leagues/tournaments/productions are not as good (though i feel it is 100% true), however, their viewership are most definitely part of your audience as well. The reverse can not be said, so it puts the GSL above other leagues.
Unlike some of the poster's views, however, I do agree the GSL must do "MORE" to accommodate TOP foreign players. Allowing foreign teams to participate is a brilliant and forward step for the e-sport / GOM TV / industry. But only the first step. Making it desirable, rewarding and competitive is the next. And as current feedback from foreign teams show, it is not there yet. Making it desirable for foreign teams to fight to get the spot to play in the GSL, where only the best are showcased, are to the best interest of all parties involved. Having foreign team's only striving for exposure, potential in growth, is nice and all, but the result at this stage of the change is counterintuitive. Maintaining a HIGH level of competition is more important for the GSL in my opinion. And to invite that level of players may require a little more incentive. Look at Yao Ming (I am Chinese). Yao Ming wasn't even that great of a player, but his treatment in to the NBA is quite hard to turn down. At the end of the day, its GOM TV that is getting (if any) immediate reward for increasing viewership and international recognition.
As for whether or not it is the team's/player's responsibility to advance e-sport's growth as whole, I believe the growth of e-sport WILL benefit the players in the end. So I think it is up to individual players to make the sacrifice and explore areas that will ultimately reward them in the future. But like my high school basketball coach told me, I could either bench for the First team or play as an integral part of the Second team, its not always an easy decision. It is hard to say which will pay off in the end as well. Skill can be developed in many different ways and routines...
Finally, Mr. Xeris, your post showed us some of your personal concerns and priorities as a manager of your team. But your conflict of interest is showing when you discredit the organizer's for personal issues and inabilities. Being an international (or non regional) team certainly requires adaptations to foreign circumstances. Perhaps you believe you have a better idea on how to run a league/tournament, nonetheless I find your post a little mis-informing.
On May 29 2011 22:12 kardinal wrote: GOM has gone beyond what I could reasonably expect from them in terms of accomodating non korean foreigners and fans alike.
Code S prizes could be adjusted to be a bit less top heavy but that's the socialist swede in me talking. Code A is fine. It's a qualifier, nothing more. It would be like players whining that you don't get any money from the group play in NASL or IGN. Exactly the same arguments can be applied so please for the love of everything people, drop it. Code A prize pool is fine. In fact it might even be better if they remove all monetary rewards from Code A so people don't have any misgivings.
As others have said, GOM is paying every mlg top 4 to fly to korea for a month and participate. Who the hell would turn that down? Seriously?
FREE TRIP TO KOREA!
Just think about that for a moment.
If you get rolled in Code A or Code S due to bad luck, which can happen, then you can spend the rest of the month practicing with koreans or if you miss mother too much FLY BACK. People don't seem to realize the opportunity this presents, who exactly would be crippled financially for training with top dogs for one month? It's not a 10 year commitment, it's 30 fucking days.
With the new format change especially now that code a round of 32 and 16 happen over 5 days if you get knocked out you can choose to go back home right away, its all expenses paid and there is nothing keeping you there. I dont understand how anyone (without serious personal commitments in their home country) could turn down an all expenses paid trip to korea to give a shot at code a or code s depending on where you place in MLG. It seems like an extraordinary opportunity, even just above and beyond participating in the most competitive tournament in the world right now, its an all expenses paid trip to a very nice foreign country in asia!
I think that players would be foolish to pass up on such an opportunity. The people who say that 30 days is a huge commitment clearly dont travel much if ever, people go on 1 -2 month vacations all the time without thinking to much about it, they dont have to quit their job they will still have all their friends when they come back and they do these trips spending their own money. This MLG exchange program is freaking all expenses paid!
On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote: Hello Teamliquid
My name is Chae Jung Won and I’m both GSL Code S commentator and manager of GSL operation team.
I’ve been reading the recent threads which have been posted at teamliquid.net. Lot of foreign players have listed the reasons for why it’s difficult for them to come to Korea and participate in GSL. While I understand some of these, I do not understand others.
First of all I want make it clear that the purpose of this thread is not to rebut the posts I mentioned above. The decision whether to make sacrifices to attend a tournament which is extremely competitive or not is completely up to one’s own and I respect that. The only thing I’m upset about is that most of the reasons mentioned are something GOMTV can’t solve(I doubt anyone can), and as for the problems that can be solved, GOMTV is doing its best to find solution. It’s just that this is easier said than done, because there are many things that needs to be considered, lot more than people realize.
Think of it this way. Let’s assume that there is backward universe; There is LAN tournament with equivalent size and prize pool as GSL in USA and tournaments in Korea are mostly online. If MVP, MC, Nestea and MKP were to be invited to States to participate in LAN tournament for a month(and they will be provided a place to sleep and practice like GOMTV is providing now), would they decide to go to US? I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
I am also aware that reaction on Korean community sites about foreign players declining invitation to Super Tournament because of its schedule have been translated and posted on teamliquid.net. There seems to be misunderstanding and it must be made clear that those opinions were solely about Super Tournament. I understand that in GSL regular season, making it to Code S beginning from Code A is very difficult for foreign players as there is too much to risk, and that is why we made League Exchange program with MLG. However my interview that was posted on PlayXP was response regarding an anonymous Fnatic person’s answer concerning Super Tournament, who gave reasons such as “1month is too long” “prize pool is not deep enough” “there is language barrier”. I was little startled when the interview was posted as the tone was much more aggressive than I actually had felt. At the time I was doing the interview, my feelings were more like “hmm? Interesting”.
Now enough about the misunderstanding, as I’m sure many of you are tired of it as there was discussion thread about it for a week. I’ll move on the good news.
As many of you are aware new GSL format will be applied in July. I’ve read many posts on teamliquid.net that people want to see more GSTL and also poll between GSL and GSTL. There have been many same requests from Koreans too and after long consideration I have changed the format more focusing on team leagues.
However the problem with new format is that it makes it difficult for foreign teams to participate in team league as they will have to stay in Korea for 2 months.
I tried my best to solve this problem and although I admit this is not the perfect solution here it is.
Firstly, “Foreign players can now participate as a mercenary in Korean team”. You may be able to see Jinro or Huk as member of oGs-TL in team league.
Accordingly, foreign players who come to Korea through MLG League Exchange, Rakaka tournament in Sweden, or come by themselves and qualify will not only be able to participate individual league but can also participate in GSTL as part of Korean team.
I cannot “force” the Korean teams to accept foreign players to their roster and have them play at least one set per match. However, Korean teams are willing to form alliance or partnership with foreign teams and they have stated that they will be happy to accept if there is any foreign team or player willing to join force. In fact Korean teams are very eager to recruit able foreign players.
If any foreign player who is entering GSL individual league and also wants to be part of team league feel free to contact either me or my assistant John. Through cooperation with Korean teams you will be provided with better practicing environment and opportunity to be part of GSTL.
Also I am open to idea of non-Korean team coming to Korean and play in GSTL. I’ve already received been contacted by certain team showing great interest and will soon make an announcement which will be huge surprise to many of you.
I have provided “opportunity” through “system”, and “opportunity” is all that I can provide. Creating “results” is not my job but up to the players themselves, through their will and amount of practice.
Super Tournament is being held at the moment. I am always open to your opinions. I do not want SC2 to be just Korean e-sports thing like Brood War was. My goal is to make a league which viewers all around the world can enjoy and get hyped when watching.
I was 1st generation pro-gamer myself(I’m still in TLPD) and have been working in e-sports over 10 years.
Many of things that are happening now in e-sports are changes that never happened in past 10 years. I’m sure that you too feel that e-sports is evolving rapidly. If e-sports players and technology is running at 100km/h and if GSL and other tournaments can keep up with the speed we can create many wonderful things which we only dreamed of past 10 years.
I’m always grateful to viewers who watch GSL. I will soon get back to you with great news Also I will be attending MLG Columbus together with players from Korea. I have decided to go to MLG to witness the enthusiasm of American fans with my own eyes.
Thank you
First and obviously the most important: You are fucking awesome. Post and the bit of casting I have seen (even though I don't speak Korean).
Second: The only issue now is flexibility in schedule. Will the GSL take a break when a "big" tournament takes place. If everyone works together esports will grow exponentially, but if everyone must make that one choice GSL or one foreign event then we will suffer. At most I believe for the "big" events it would be two weekends per GSL season that might be interrupted and typically 1. Thank you for your time here and paying attention to teamliquid.net.
The thing is that there already is flexibility for all major tournaments, think about it any of those major tournaments in the west your talking about has koreans participating in it now except IPL wich is ALL online anyways. NASL, MLG , DH, IEM all have or will have koreans in the GSL participating in their tournaments so obviously gom is working their schedule around that.
Regardless of any issues that arise between the foreign community and the korean one. The fact that a representative of GOM took the time to address some concerns in a link on TL is so incredibly huge that i cannot see anything bad coming out of this. Also i would love a foreigner all-star team to enter the GSTL :D WOuld be awesome!
Thank you mister to take the time to post here and try to find solutions to get the foreigners involved, the community trully appreciate it.
I think the main issue is that going to Korea really isolate you from the foreign scene (partly because of the cross-server lag too), a scene that is doing well at the moment (a LOT of tournaments happening everywhere). Given this fact, plus a lot of other circumstances, going to Korea is less tempting for a lot of players, which is completely understandable.
I think a lot of players would be more tempted to go to Korea if Blizzard somehow fixes the cross-server lag issue, but I don't see this happening.
Look at Yao Ming (I am Chinese). Yao Ming wasn't even that great of a player
I'm sorry I don't want to sidetrack this but... what....
Yao Ming not even that great of a player? The guy averaged 20 points and 10 rebounds AND an amazing FT% as well meaning he can get to the line and score points. It's only because he was injury plagued that his career didn't gain nearly as much momentum as it could have. Don't understate a great player like that.
I agree completely. I think all the reasons the foreigners give is basically spawning from the fact that they don't think they're good enough to win the whole thing, and instead of participating in the hardest tournament in the world for the most money, they would rather settle for easy cash in the west (players like Idra, Incontrol, TT1, etc... that could be in GSL but choose not to be). This is easily evidence by a player like Naniwa, who IS good enough to at least compete, and can't wait to go there. These are the kind of players I love, who strive for the most competition, not the easiest reward.
Not to mention ALL the tournaments that they say they will "miss out on" are online tournaments, which koreans play in..... Doesn't make sense to me. Language/culture barrier is also very silly, look how well HuK and Jinro did staying with oGs!! If you're motivated, you can overcome such things sooooo easily. And now that more korean teams are on board for housing foreigners, they will be able to have the best practice in the world, playing in the best tournament in the world for the most money in the world.....
What's not to love?
This is simply not accurate. Going to Korea to play does not offer much appeal financially anymore, so whats the incentive? Move away from friends and family, the culture you've grown up in to get less exposure, make less money, and be limited in your starcraft choices? Its a lose, lose, lose.
Idra was there, code 'S', challenging for championships and saw there was more opportunity elsewhere. Liquid Tyler said the same thing last SOTG, why go when there's as much opportunity and more exposure here?
Not that there's nothing to be gained from going. Clearly you can hone your skills faster while emersed in the Korean starcraft culture, learn to practice with Koreans and their vaunted work ethic, compete against the best ect.... But the foreign scene is growing fast, and many Foreigners are already playing on Korean Ladder and getting a lot of Korean exposure.
The simple fact is Korean starcraft is built for Koreans. The tournaments are weeks long so only applicable to residents, not short visits. GSL is the only game in Korea for Pro's. Foreigners can play anywhere, anytime. From Sweden, to Canada, to the US. The tournaments are short or online, built to accommodate short visits from foreign players.
Quite frankly, the foreign scene is superior. Offering more choices, more exposure, more control and more money. I would not be at all surprised to see Koreans leaving Korea and playing globally in the future. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
That said its much appreciated that GOM is doing what it can to accommodate the foreign scene. Fans want to see Koreans face off with the best foreigners, want to see foreigners in GSL and Koreans showing up outside Korea. The more synergy between both sides the better. If somehow there could be foreign teams in the GSTL, that would be awesome. And the foreign scene appreciates all GOM is doing to help out.
Thankyou for taking the time to post and express your opinion.
As a side note, is GomTV able to provide a better stream / stream quality? I feel that this is single handedly the worst aspect of viewing GSL competitions. (Poor quality, unreliable)
I feel that an improvement in this and more foreigners participating (one of your solutions sounds great) will greatly improve the longevity of your competitions.
On May 30 2011 15:21 Spectorials wrote: Thankyou for taking the time to post and express your opinion.
As a side note, is GomTV able to provide a better stream / stream quality? I feel that this is single handedly the worst aspect of viewing GSL competitions. (Poor quality, unreliable)
I feel that an improvement in this and more foreigners participating (one of your solutions sounds great) will greatly improve the longevity of your competitions.
I have never had issues with their streaming. Always HQ and stream perfect.
Quite frankly, the foreign scene is superior. Offering more choices, more exposure, more control and more money. I would not be at all surprised to see Koreans leaving Korea and playing globally in the future.
I agree completely. I think all the reasons the foreigners give is basically spawning from the fact that they don't think they're good enough to win the whole thing, and instead of participating in the hardest tournament in the world for the most money, they would rather settle for easy cash in the west (players like Idra, Incontrol, TT1, etc... that could be in GSL but choose not to be). This is easily evidence by a player like Naniwa, who IS good enough to at least compete, and can't wait to go there. These are the kind of players I love, who strive for the most competition, not the easiest reward.
Not to mention ALL the tournaments that they say they will "miss out on" are online tournaments, which koreans play in..... Doesn't make sense to me. Language/culture barrier is also very silly, look how well HuK and Jinro did staying with oGs!! If you're motivated, you can overcome such things sooooo easily. And now that more korean teams are on board for housing foreigners, they will be able to have the best practice in the world, playing in the best tournament in the world for the most money in the world.....
What's not to love?
This is simply not accurate. Going to Korea to play does not offer much appeal financially anymore, so whats the incentive? Move away from friends and family, the culture you've grown up in to get less exposure, make less money, and be limited in your starcraft choices? Its a lose, lose, lose.
Idra was there, code 'S', challenging for championships and saw there was more opportunity elsewhere. Liquid Tyler said the same thing last SOTG, why go when there's as much opportunity and more exposure here?
Not that there's nothing to be gained from going. Clearly you can hone your skills faster while emersed in the Korean starcraft culture, learn to practice with Koreans and their vaunted work ethic, compete against the best ect.... But the foreign scene is growing fast, and many Foreigners are already playing on Korean Ladder and getting a lot of Korean exposure.
The simple fact is Korean starcraft is built for Koreans. The tournaments are weeks long so only applicable to residents, not short visits. GSL is the only game in Korea for Pro's. Foreigners can play anywhere, anytime. From Sweden, to Canada, to the US. The tournaments are short or online, built to accommodate short visits from foreign players.
Quite frankly, the foreign scene is superior. Offering more choices, more exposure, more control and more money. I would not be at all surprised to see Koreans leaving Korea and playing globally in the future. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
That said its much appreciated that GOM is doing what it can to accommodate the foreign scene. Fans want to see Koreans face off with the best foreigners, want to see foreigners in GSL and Koreans showing up outside Korea. The more synergy between both sides the better. If somehow there could be foreign teams in the GSTL, that would be awesome. And the foreign scene appreciates all GOM is doing to help out.
You do supress the fact that evaluation is a highly subjective matter. Second, any evaluation must hold up onto some kind of set scale, or goal. This "goal" can be defined by every person differently.
Your statements are true only if one would define his goal as "making the most money with least effort in short term".
I agree completely. I think all the reasons the foreigners give is basically spawning from the fact that they don't think they're good enough to win the whole thing, and instead of participating in the hardest tournament in the world for the most money, they would rather settle for easy cash in the west (players like Idra, Incontrol, TT1, etc... that could be in GSL but choose not to be). This is easily evidence by a player like Naniwa, who IS good enough to at least compete, and can't wait to go there. These are the kind of players I love, who strive for the most competition, not the easiest reward.
Not to mention ALL the tournaments that they say they will "miss out on" are online tournaments, which koreans play in..... Doesn't make sense to me. Language/culture barrier is also very silly, look how well HuK and Jinro did staying with oGs!! If you're motivated, you can overcome such things sooooo easily. And now that more korean teams are on board for housing foreigners, they will be able to have the best practice in the world, playing in the best tournament in the world for the most money in the world.....
What's not to love?
This is simply not accurate. Going to Korea to play does not offer much appeal financially anymore, so whats the incentive? Move away from friends and family, the culture you've grown up in to get less exposure, make less money, and be limited in your starcraft choices? Its a lose, lose, lose.
Idra was there, code 'S', challenging for championships and saw there was more opportunity elsewhere. Liquid Tyler said the same thing last SOTG, why go when there's as much opportunity and more exposure here?
Not that there's nothing to be gained from going. Clearly you can hone your skills faster while emersed in the Korean starcraft culture, learn to practice with Koreans and their vaunted work ethic, compete against the best ect.... But the foreign scene is growing fast, and many Foreigners are already playing on Korean Ladder and getting a lot of Korean exposure.
The simple fact is Korean starcraft is built for Koreans. The tournaments are weeks long so only applicable to residents, not short visits. GSL is the only game in Korea for Pro's. Foreigners can play anywhere, anytime. From Sweden, to Canada, to the US. The tournaments are short or online, built to accommodate short visits from foreign players.
Quite frankly, the foreign scene is superior. Offering more choices, more exposure, more control and more money. I would not be at all surprised to see Koreans leaving Korea and playing globally in the future. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
That said its much appreciated that GOM is doing what it can to accommodate the foreign scene. Fans want to see Koreans face off with the best foreigners, want to see foreigners in GSL and Koreans showing up outside Korea. The more synergy between both sides the better. If somehow there could be foreign teams in the GSTL, that would be awesome. And the foreign scene appreciates all GOM is doing to help out.
Go ahead and explain to me how the foreign scene is superior in any way.
I agree completely. I think all the reasons the foreigners give is basically spawning from the fact that they don't think they're good enough to win the whole thing, and instead of participating in the hardest tournament in the world for the most money, they would rather settle for easy cash in the west (players like Idra, Incontrol, TT1, etc... that could be in GSL but choose not to be). This is easily evidence by a player like Naniwa, who IS good enough to at least compete, and can't wait to go there. These are the kind of players I love, who strive for the most competition, not the easiest reward.
Not to mention ALL the tournaments that they say they will "miss out on" are online tournaments, which koreans play in..... Doesn't make sense to me. Language/culture barrier is also very silly, look how well HuK and Jinro did staying with oGs!! If you're motivated, you can overcome such things sooooo easily. And now that more korean teams are on board for housing foreigners, they will be able to have the best practice in the world, playing in the best tournament in the world for the most money in the world.....
What's not to love?
This is simply not accurate. Going to Korea to play does not offer much appeal financially anymore, so whats the incentive? Move away from friends and family, the culture you've grown up in to get less exposure, make less money, and be limited in your starcraft choices? Its a lose, lose, lose.
Idra was there, code 'S', challenging for championships and saw there was more opportunity elsewhere. Liquid Tyler said the same thing last SOTG, why go when there's as much opportunity and more exposure here?
Not that there's nothing to be gained from going. Clearly you can hone your skills faster while emersed in the Korean starcraft culture, learn to practice with Koreans and their vaunted work ethic, compete against the best ect.... But the foreign scene is growing fast, and many Foreigners are already playing on Korean Ladder and getting a lot of Korean exposure.
The simple fact is Korean starcraft is built for Koreans. The tournaments are weeks long so only applicable to residents, not short visits. GSL is the only game in Korea for Pro's. Foreigners can play anywhere, anytime. From Sweden, to Canada, to the US. The tournaments are short or online, built to accommodate short visits from foreign players.
Quite frankly, the foreign scene is superior. Offering more choices, more exposure, more control and more money. I would not be at all surprised to see Koreans leaving Korea and playing globally in the future. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
That said its much appreciated that GOM is doing what it can to accommodate the foreign scene. Fans want to see Koreans face off with the best foreigners, want to see foreigners in GSL and Koreans showing up outside Korea. The more synergy between both sides the better. If somehow there could be foreign teams in the GSTL, that would be awesome. And the foreign scene appreciates all GOM is doing to help out.
Go ahead and explain to me how the foreign scene is superior in any way.
think his definition and your definition of superior are different. he's saying it's superior cause it has just as much financial benefits. however, I don't think its superior at all lol... in terms of player quality, production quality, viewer count... can't think of any criterion where foreign leagues are superior.
On May 30 2011 15:21 Spectorials wrote: Thankyou for taking the time to post and express your opinion.
As a side note, is GomTV able to provide a better stream / stream quality? I feel that this is single handedly the worst aspect of viewing GSL competitions. (Poor quality, unreliable)
I feel that an improvement in this and more foreigners participating (one of your solutions sounds great) will greatly improve the longevity of your competitions.
I have never had issues with their streaming. Always HQ and stream perfect.
That is indeed fantastic for you, I do not, however, pay for season tickets anymore (alongside MANY other people) because the stream randomly dies / lags / whatever. Also the HQ stream could barely be considered HQ
I agree completely. I think all the reasons the foreigners give is basically spawning from the fact that they don't think they're good enough to win the whole thing, and instead of participating in the hardest tournament in the world for the most money, they would rather settle for easy cash in the west (players like Idra, Incontrol, TT1, etc... that could be in GSL but choose not to be). This is easily evidence by a player like Naniwa, who IS good enough to at least compete, and can't wait to go there. These are the kind of players I love, who strive for the most competition, not the easiest reward.
Not to mention ALL the tournaments that they say they will "miss out on" are online tournaments, which koreans play in..... Doesn't make sense to me. Language/culture barrier is also very silly, look how well HuK and Jinro did staying with oGs!! If you're motivated, you can overcome such things sooooo easily. And now that more korean teams are on board for housing foreigners, they will be able to have the best practice in the world, playing in the best tournament in the world for the most money in the world.....
What's not to love?
This is simply not accurate. Going to Korea to play does not offer much appeal financially anymore, so whats the incentive? Move away from friends and family, the culture you've grown up in to get less exposure, make less money, and be limited in your starcraft choices? Its a lose, lose, lose.
Idra was there, code 'S', challenging for championships and saw there was more opportunity elsewhere. Liquid Tyler said the same thing last SOTG, why go when there's as much opportunity and more exposure here?
Not that there's nothing to be gained from going. Clearly you can hone your skills faster while emersed in the Korean starcraft culture, learn to practice with Koreans and their vaunted work ethic, compete against the best ect.... But the foreign scene is growing fast, and many Foreigners are already playing on Korean Ladder and getting a lot of Korean exposure.
The simple fact is Korean starcraft is built for Koreans. The tournaments are weeks long so only applicable to residents, not short visits. GSL is the only game in Korea for Pro's. Foreigners can play anywhere, anytime. From Sweden, to Canada, to the US. The tournaments are short or online, built to accommodate short visits from foreign players.
Quite frankly, the foreign scene is superior. Offering more choices, more exposure, more control and more money. I would not be at all surprised to see Koreans leaving Korea and playing globally in the future. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
That said its much appreciated that GOM is doing what it can to accommodate the foreign scene. Fans want to see Koreans face off with the best foreigners, want to see foreigners in GSL and Koreans showing up outside Korea. The more synergy between both sides the better. If somehow there could be foreign teams in the GSTL, that would be awesome. And the foreign scene appreciates all GOM is doing to help out.
Go ahead and explain to me how the foreign scene is superior in any way.
think his definition and your definition of superior are different. he's saying it's superior cause it has just as much financial benefits. however, I don't think its superior at all lol... in terms of player quality, production quality, viewer count... can't think of any criterion where foreign leagues are superior.
For a foreign player the foreign scene is "better".
What makes the GSL interesting for a "foreigner": 1. Most competetive. 2. Biggest price for winning.
What makes the GSL/Korea unattractive for a "foreigner": 1. It excludes you from most foreign events or at least puts you at a disadvantage in these (Korea <-> US/EU Lag). 2. The tournament format is very "unfrogiving", you lose in the first round to some "random all-in "... Go home again, hope you did some sight seeing . 3. Training ISN'T superior when you don't speak korean, it's probably worse. Why do/did people form "team-houses"? Because talking about the game is important, living in a teamhouse were you can't speak in debt with most people won't do you much good. Living in a Teamhouse with foreigners in Korea is the same as living in a "Team-House" anywhere else.
The GSL itself is in no way at "fault" for that (well, you could discuss about their format but thats another story), it's just that the big first place price is not enough to really draw in all the top foreigners while excluding them from tons of other tourneys. The cultures and language-barrier does not matter much in the end, but it makes Korea also a little less attractive.
i dunno, i feel gom does a decent job with the major issues really related to prize structure and time commitment.
i kinda liken pro-gamers to professional golf and tennis players. for both sports there are four major tournaments a year and several smaller contests. the top ten players for both sports pretty much only play these major tournaments as they pay a ton of money and offer a ton of endorsements, but if you're ranked 50, or really anything in the top 200, even going lower with amateur tournaments where winning may earn you a spot/give someone the confidence to declare going pro you still have opportunities to make money.
there are two important things to note about the tournament structure for tennis and golf that make this possible:
1) if you're good enough to make it to a certain round in a major (i.e. getting to the 2nd round in tennis or making the cut in golf), it pays extremely well, moreso if you win, and enough smaller tournaments exist so that if you're ranked 50 or even 200 in the world there's a tournament out there you can win and thus afford your lifestyle. the current starcraft scene is not like this especially if you limit the starcraft scene to just korea (which isn't really gom's problem. they run a good high-level tournament, the issue is creating low-level tournaments which is a very long term investment and would help the community overall, but could weaken gom's perception as the highest level of play). in almost every golf and tennis tournament there's a particular point you need to make to get paid (the cuts mentioned earlier). if you don't make this point you get NO money and are responsible for all the expenses getting to and from the tournament and lodging (though many of the better players have lucrative sponsorship deals handling this cost, there are again often incentives for better performance). gom pays players to stay in houses with a considerably less strict view of their performance in tournaments which i think is a mistake. golfers and tennis players travel all over the world almost year round, making an assessment of can i do well enough in this tournament to justify travelling to it. and yeah, this could make starcraft prohibitively more expensive, but the beauty of starcraft is it's an online game. the players don't actually need to be in the same location especially in the early rounds and this can lower the necessary prize pool to make starcraft profitable for pros as well as allow for a higher number of more competitve tournaments across all levels of play.
2) starcraft 2 tournaments take too long. golf and tennis tournaments are settled over the course of a week in most cases (tennis majors being an exception that instead generally last 2 weeks). starcraft 2 tournaments, especially in korea tend to be extremely drawn out. there's really no reason to require players to be there for more than a day per round. yes, most players will be there a few days in advance, but a 32-64 person tournament consists of 5-6 rounds which can easily be played a day per round over the course of a week. if you want to include group play rounds then you can maybe make an argument expanding the tournament to 2 weeks as a 64 person tournament then potentially becomes about 8-10 rounds, and if you wanna insist people be in the same location for later rounds, throw in a few travel days (but these should largely be unnecessary for the bigger tournaments as players will optimistically already be there with smaller tournaments happening simultaneously strictly online and thus not posing a conflict). But a month is imo an unreasonable time commitment when dealing with any game or sport played by individuals in a professional setting, especially a game that isn't particularly physically taxing.
To me, these are the biggest problem with gom as why play an extremely difficult tournament that takes a month, prevents me from earning money elsewhere, and only pays significantly in the unlikely event i win, when i can play 4 smaller weekend long tournaments in smaller less competitive and easier markets and where i'm likely to win and easily make significantly more than the 5th place earnings i'd be lucky to get at gom? the risk/reward system of gom is way off and i understand why it's having trouble attracting foreign players.
On May 30 2011 15:21 Spectorials wrote: Thankyou for taking the time to post and express your opinion.
As a side note, is GomTV able to provide a better stream / stream quality? I feel that this is single handedly the worst aspect of viewing GSL competitions. (Poor quality, unreliable)
I feel that an improvement in this and more foreigners participating (one of your solutions sounds great) will greatly improve the longevity of your competitions.
I have never had issues with their streaming. Always HQ and stream perfect.
That is indeed fantastic for you, I do not, however, pay for season tickets anymore (alongside MANY other people) because the stream randomly dies / lags / whatever. Also the HQ stream could barely be considered HQ
I would agree with you here. The stream is not HQ compared to when you watch the VODs on HQ. It's a huge difference.
I however am not paying to watch the stream live anymore just as many others probably are in the same situation as I am that they do not have the time to watch it live due to school or work or any other commitments.
On May 29 2011 17:45 Krehlmar wrote: As I said alot of pages back and people agreed with; The only reason westerners are not going to korea is that they can make more money whilst performing less in the west.
I can agree with this post. The truth hurts, but honestly Korea is already pulling away, and it's unnecessary. Man up and get better than them!
On May 29 2011 17:45 Krehlmar wrote: As I said alot of pages back and people agreed with; The only reason westerners are not going to korea is that they can make more money whilst performing less in the west.
I can agree with this post. The truth hurts, but honestly Korea is already pulling away, and it's unnecessary. Man up and get better than them!
Well there isn't going to be any improvement as long as:
a) Korea continues to work/train in a much more rigorous environment than in the West b) Players continue to dodge harder tournaments in favor of easier ones to maximize their earning potential (it's hard to blame them to be honest, it is their livelihood). c) They use poor mathematical reasoning like fams did in the thread he started about Korea needing to pay attention to the west, by saying the potential that gamers are giving up by going to GSL is $19,000 based on TL roundup (as if any progamer has one more then 3-4 of them in a given month.).
On May 30 2011 15:21 Spectorials wrote: Thankyou for taking the time to post and express your opinion.
As a side note, is GomTV able to provide a better stream / stream quality? I feel that this is single handedly the worst aspect of viewing GSL competitions. (Poor quality, unreliable)
I feel that an improvement in this and more foreigners participating (one of your solutions sounds great) will greatly improve the longevity of your competitions.
I have never had issues with their streaming. Always HQ and stream perfect.
That is indeed fantastic for you, I do not, however, pay for season tickets anymore (alongside MANY other people) because the stream randomly dies / lags / whatever. Also the HQ stream could barely be considered HQ
I've watched the stream from at least 4 different providers in sweden and it was flawless in every one of them. I guess streaming will never be perfect. I rarely watch the stream seriously though cause i have work, VODs are where it's at, and you gotta buy a season ticket for those anyway.
I really do think you should start some kind of cooperation with Dreamhack, as it is by far the biggest tournament outside Korea. Even including Korea, it is the biggest international tournament, just check the list of players participating.
Those are all great news... now the last thing to work on is the free streaming quality, Sometimes during big fights the limit my eyes can support before hurting is reached. I wonder if one day we'll have 480p free stream like Nasl has. That would be great !
I do understand that we should support esport etc but please keep in mind that not everyone is able to pay 10$ per month when we already pay internet, phone etc...
I agree completely. I think all the reasons the foreigners give is basically spawning from the fact that they don't think they're good enough to win the whole thing, and instead of participating in the hardest tournament in the world for the most money, they would rather settle for easy cash in the west (players like Idra, Incontrol, TT1, etc... that could be in GSL but choose not to be). This is easily evidence by a player like Naniwa, who IS good enough to at least compete, and can't wait to go there. These are the kind of players I love, who strive for the most competition, not the easiest reward.
Not to mention ALL the tournaments that they say they will "miss out on" are online tournaments, which koreans play in..... Doesn't make sense to me. Language/culture barrier is also very silly, look how well HuK and Jinro did staying with oGs!! If you're motivated, you can overcome such things sooooo easily. And now that more korean teams are on board for housing foreigners, they will be able to have the best practice in the world, playing in the best tournament in the world for the most money in the world.....
What's not to love?
This is simply not accurate. Going to Korea to play does not offer much appeal financially anymore, so whats the incentive? Move away from friends and family, the culture you've grown up in to get less exposure, make less money, and be limited in your starcraft choices? Its a lose, lose, lose.
Idra was there, code 'S', challenging for championships and saw there was more opportunity elsewhere. Liquid Tyler said the same thing last SOTG, why go when there's as much opportunity and more exposure here?
Not that there's nothing to be gained from going. Clearly you can hone your skills faster while emersed in the Korean starcraft culture, learn to practice with Koreans and their vaunted work ethic, compete against the best ect.... But the foreign scene is growing fast, and many Foreigners are already playing on Korean Ladder and getting a lot of Korean exposure.
The simple fact is Korean starcraft is built for Koreans. The tournaments are weeks long so only applicable to residents, not short visits. GSL is the only game in Korea for Pro's. Foreigners can play anywhere, anytime. From Sweden, to Canada, to the US. The tournaments are short or online, built to accommodate short visits from foreign players.
Quite frankly, the foreign scene is superior. Offering more choices, more exposure, more control and more money. I would not be at all surprised to see Koreans leaving Korea and playing globally in the future. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
That said its much appreciated that GOM is doing what it can to accommodate the foreign scene. Fans want to see Koreans face off with the best foreigners, want to see foreigners in GSL and Koreans showing up outside Korea. The more synergy between both sides the better. If somehow there could be foreign teams in the GSTL, that would be awesome. And the foreign scene appreciates all GOM is doing to help out.
Go ahead and explain to me how the foreign scene is superior in any way.
Take a look at Code A pay-outs and reconsider your question.
I agree completely. I think all the reasons the foreigners give is basically spawning from the fact that they don't think they're good enough to win the whole thing, and instead of participating in the hardest tournament in the world for the most money, they would rather settle for easy cash in the west (players like Idra, Incontrol, TT1, etc... that could be in GSL but choose not to be). This is easily evidence by a player like Naniwa, who IS good enough to at least compete, and can't wait to go there. These are the kind of players I love, who strive for the most competition, not the easiest reward.
Not to mention ALL the tournaments that they say they will "miss out on" are online tournaments, which koreans play in..... Doesn't make sense to me. Language/culture barrier is also very silly, look how well HuK and Jinro did staying with oGs!! If you're motivated, you can overcome such things sooooo easily. And now that more korean teams are on board for housing foreigners, they will be able to have the best practice in the world, playing in the best tournament in the world for the most money in the world.....
What's not to love?
This is simply not accurate. Going to Korea to play does not offer much appeal financially anymore, so whats the incentive? Move away from friends and family, the culture you've grown up in to get less exposure, make less money, and be limited in your starcraft choices? Its a lose, lose, lose.
Idra was there, code 'S', challenging for championships and saw there was more opportunity elsewhere. Liquid Tyler said the same thing last SOTG, why go when there's as much opportunity and more exposure here?
Not that there's nothing to be gained from going. Clearly you can hone your skills faster while emersed in the Korean starcraft culture, learn to practice with Koreans and their vaunted work ethic, compete against the best ect.... But the foreign scene is growing fast, and many Foreigners are already playing on Korean Ladder and getting a lot of Korean exposure.
The simple fact is Korean starcraft is built for Koreans. The tournaments are weeks long so only applicable to residents, not short visits. GSL is the only game in Korea for Pro's. Foreigners can play anywhere, anytime. From Sweden, to Canada, to the US. The tournaments are short or online, built to accommodate short visits from foreign players.
Quite frankly, the foreign scene is superior. Offering more choices, more exposure, more control and more money. I would not be at all surprised to see Koreans leaving Korea and playing globally in the future. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
That said its much appreciated that GOM is doing what it can to accommodate the foreign scene. Fans want to see Koreans face off with the best foreigners, want to see foreigners in GSL and Koreans showing up outside Korea. The more synergy between both sides the better. If somehow there could be foreign teams in the GSTL, that would be awesome. And the foreign scene appreciates all GOM is doing to help out.
Go ahead and explain to me how the foreign scene is superior in any way.
The question wasn't directed at me and I do not think the foreign scene is superior overall but it is better in some ways.
For example. 1. Easier to get into 2. Much greater national diversity 3. Has a ton of tournaments, there are several going per day. 4. Allows you to play from home for quite a lot of the major prize tournaments. 5. It has a bigger scene with more players 6. Uses English as the primary language and thus most people in the world can participate in it.
I agree completely. I think all the reasons the foreigners give is basically spawning from the fact that they don't think they're good enough to win the whole thing, and instead of participating in the hardest tournament in the world for the most money, they would rather settle for easy cash in the west (players like Idra, Incontrol, TT1, etc... that could be in GSL but choose not to be). This is easily evidence by a player like Naniwa, who IS good enough to at least compete, and can't wait to go there. These are the kind of players I love, who strive for the most competition, not the easiest reward.
Not to mention ALL the tournaments that they say they will "miss out on" are online tournaments, which koreans play in..... Doesn't make sense to me. Language/culture barrier is also very silly, look how well HuK and Jinro did staying with oGs!! If you're motivated, you can overcome such things sooooo easily. And now that more korean teams are on board for housing foreigners, they will be able to have the best practice in the world, playing in the best tournament in the world for the most money in the world.....
What's not to love?
This is simply not accurate. Going to Korea to play does not offer much appeal financially anymore, so whats the incentive? Move away from friends and family, the culture you've grown up in to get less exposure, make less money, and be limited in your starcraft choices? Its a lose, lose, lose.
Idra was there, code 'S', challenging for championships and saw there was more opportunity elsewhere. Liquid Tyler said the same thing last SOTG, why go when there's as much opportunity and more exposure here?
Not that there's nothing to be gained from going. Clearly you can hone your skills faster while emersed in the Korean starcraft culture, learn to practice with Koreans and their vaunted work ethic, compete against the best ect.... But the foreign scene is growing fast, and many Foreigners are already playing on Korean Ladder and getting a lot of Korean exposure.
The simple fact is Korean starcraft is built for Koreans. The tournaments are weeks long so only applicable to residents, not short visits. GSL is the only game in Korea for Pro's. Foreigners can play anywhere, anytime. From Sweden, to Canada, to the US. The tournaments are short or online, built to accommodate short visits from foreign players.
Quite frankly, the foreign scene is superior. Offering more choices, more exposure, more control and more money. I would not be at all surprised to see Koreans leaving Korea and playing globally in the future. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
That said its much appreciated that GOM is doing what it can to accommodate the foreign scene. Fans want to see Koreans face off with the best foreigners, want to see foreigners in GSL and Koreans showing up outside Korea. The more synergy between both sides the better. If somehow there could be foreign teams in the GSTL, that would be awesome. And the foreign scene appreciates all GOM is doing to help out.
Go ahead and explain to me how the foreign scene is superior in any way.
The question wasn't directed at me and I do not think the foreign scene is superior overall but it is better in some ways.
For example. 1. Easier to get into 2. Much greater national diversity 3. Has a ton of tournaments, there are several going per day. 4. Allows you to play from home for quite a lot of the major prize tournaments. 5. It has a bigger scene with more players 6. Uses English as the primary language and thus most people in the world can participate in it.
I don't really know where to begin lol. 1. I agree, I'll give you this 2. You're comparing ONE country to the REST of the world. You also can't deny that the reason why foreigners have band together so quickly is because they see it as themselves against the Koreans, nor do I think it's fair to say there is more diversity when you're comparing Korea (comprised of Koreans) to everywhere not Korea. 3. Several low value tournaments (aside from NASL and IPL) there really isn't anything of true value now. There is MLG and Dreamhack coming up. 4. Not really sure if you call that a pro or a con. It's a con for viewers to be honest. Besides, online tourneys across continents have little weight compared to live tourneys. 5. Again, more people in the scene is simply a product of your division of scenes between Foreign and Korean. 6. Valid
But one thing you conveniently avoid mentioning though is that GSL has what I would consider more fans. Non-Koreans are watching GSL whereas the same can't be said about Koreans watching foreign leagues (aside from the big ones with Koreans in it).
I have provided “opportunity” through “system”, and “opportunity” is all that I can provide. Creating “results” is not my job but up to the players themselves, through their will and amount of practice.
Couldn't agree more!
I too feel that currently most players simply chose to be "1st in village" (easy wins in NA/EU tournaments where there is less competition) instead of being "2nd in Rome" and striving to better themselves to become equal among the best.
GSL is the only tournament whose passes I keep buying because I know the content will always be excellent. Even when a rare match is not too exciting, there is no such thing as too much of Tastosis <3, and Moletrap/DoA/Wolf are way better than most other casters as well.
Guy A: "There is more Money/Tournaments outside of Korea, so there is no reason for foreigner to go to Korea" You answer: "It's unfair to compare Korea to the rest of the World because Korea is just one country". Guy A: "But there seems to be no reason to go to Korea when you can travel around Europe or/and the USA, make good money, have way more chances to get "some" money, are closer to your fans and don't have to "learn" a new culture/languge/friggin alphabet that is only useful in this one country?" You answer: "They are just scared of the Koreans and don't want to put in the necessary effort to "fit" into the Korean enviroment". Guy A: "That makes no sense, when there is more money to make outside of Korea, so why should the Foreigners move to Korea and not the Koreans "out" of Korea to grab that "easy money"." You answer: "W E L L, it's expensive and hard to go to all these tourneys for the Koreans. Many of them would actually like too but they only go if their invited and get paid some of their expenses (which is ridiculous btw) because the cost is to high... ... ... ..." Guy A: "Face --> Wall"
If E-Sports in the "West" grows for another year as it has since SC2's release, there won't be a reason anymore to go to Korea.
Gom/GSL is doing an awesome Job to "help" the foreigners and no one is denying that, at the moment there is just no real reason to go to Korea for many, many players. Some will go for some time, but staying there is, at the moment, just no wise decision (when you don't except to win "multiple" GSL's").
On May 31 2011 23:43 Velr wrote: If E-Sports in the "West" grows for another year as it has since SC2's release, there won't be a reason anymore to go to Korea.
The reason is the same as it has always been: to compete with the best.
If you care about money that much I dunno why the hell you're trying to play Starcraft for a living.
On May 31 2011 23:50 Velr wrote: Then the best should move out of their tiny country and go to these big price tournaments (whiteout invites!) and grab that money.
NOT the other way around.
I would just say that GSL (Code S) still provides the biggest prize pool comparing to other tournaments. And if you are already the best, you would be confident enough to win the code S for a huge sum of money. Also, MLG, IEM, and DreamHack don't happen every month. I guess if they have no schedule conflict with the GSL, they would love to go to other tourneys.
On May 31 2011 23:50 Velr wrote: Then the best should move out of their tiny country and go to these big price tournaments (whiteout invites!) and grab that money.
NOT the other way around.
As mentioned above, GSL has the highest prize money. For other stuff like Dreamhack or even MLG, well, they are going to them.
Doesn't change the fact that the best competition is in Korea, and if foreigners want to compete at that level, that's where you gotta go.
And some foreigners actually do that/want to do that?
Whiteout a direct invite to Code S (or at least A) it's just not a "smart" choice. The GSL just takes way to much time to unfold to make it attractive enough.
I'm sure some will give it a try now and then, but why would you make long term plans to stay in Korea? (there is a reason the TSL house is "dieing out" and EG/Others have scrapped their plans for a Koeran house). You can think about staying when you actually are in Code S and were doing decent/good (well, you being there makes you doing decent/good) enough to make you believe that you could win it.
Right now just going there to qualify the "normal" way just does not seem smart. Even with a seed for Code A it's questionable...
The competition might be the highest level (but from what i saw it's in no way far above everywhere else) and whiteout really good korean skills your training also won't be better (except for extrem ladder-grinders?).
1st of all you are implying that foreigners aren't going to south korea, because they don't have the skill. Reality is how many koreans were in top 4 on TSL, where all the big names were(korea, na , europe etc as far as i know , there wasn't any tournament like that and where people can prepare for matches 1 or 2 weeks, both combined make TSL imo the most prestigious tournament yet) ? See my point.
Even in MLG its kind of unfair that all 4 koreans go directly to the pools, while only 1 foreigner from MLG goes to Code S, there is 3 that go to code A, but seriously who cares about that code A? So please OP stop trolling.
btw you mention MC, he has been doing pretty well RO64 on super tournament and RO32 on the last normal GSL, are u so sure he has the skill to win again ?
About the reverse situation, reality is if you were to sum the total prize pool in countries that have English as a Primary or Secondary language and compared it to the prize pool in Korean tournaments, the first would win hands down. So u have to take into account European and American tournaments vs GSL. Even taking the reverse of European+NA tournament vs GSL, i would assure you less from korea would come, especially, because then it would be easier to them to attend all korean tournaments, while guys from NA have to travel to europe and vice-versa, in korea it would be in the same country making things even less attractive to go to gsl.
Lesson learned is don't be racist OP, just cause someone is korean doesn't make them better or more willing to do things.
I think the difference between GSL and other tournaments outside korea is that GSL is a month long tournament so having the commitment to stay there is a must. Also having a month long tournament helps the televise scene for GOM to earn viewers and ratings. Thats how the business works. So comparing GSL to other tournaments is not really a thing we could debate to. Other tournaments focus on a fast result and not televise entertainment. If NASL goes big it could be compared to GSL but as far as these tournaments are concerned they have their different aspects in which one can have advantages and disadvantages. GSL is good for players willing to stay and make a name for themselves in GSL land. So dont be conceived with the "G" in GSL. Its just a packaging/marketing strategy but ofcourse it is open for anyone willing to commit.
On the other hand we can maybe make a tournament to have top players of GSL and MLG/NASL/(any big NA/EU tourney and have a large LAN tourney with a chance of inviting these said players, expense paid, and be held in a place like WCG or TSL(finals) did. That way we can really see who is world champion. Forget the racist this and that. Players are based on skill not nationality.
On June 01 2011 07:37 rareh wrote: 1st of all you are implying that foreigners aren't going to south korea, because they don't have the skill. Reality is how many koreans were in top 4 on TSL, where all the big names were(korea, na , europe etc as far as i know , there wasn't any tournament like that and where people can prepare for matches 1 or 2 weeks, both combined make TSL imo the most prestigious tournament yet) ? See my point.
Even in MLG its kind of unfair that all 4 koreans go directly to the pools, while only 1 foreigner from MLG goes to Code S, there is 3 that go to code A, but seriously who cares about that code A? So please OP stop trolling.
btw you mention MC, he has been doing pretty well RO64 on super tournament and RO32 on the last normal GSL, are u so sure he has the skill to win again ?
About the reverse situation, reality is if you were to sum the total prize pool in countries that have English as a Primary or Secondary language and compared it to the prize pool in Korean tournaments, the first would win hands down. So u have to take into account European and American tournaments vs GSL. Even taking the reverse of European+NA tournament vs GSL, i would assure you less from korea would come, especially, because then it would be easier to them to attend all korean tournaments, while guys from NA have to travel to europe and vice-versa, in korea it would be in the same country making things even less attractive to go to gsl.
Lesson learned is don't be racist OP, just cause someone is korean doesn't make them better or more willing to do things.
Make Code A a one weekend tournament including qualifiers
Problem solved.
It isn't realistic to expect any rational foreign player to spend an entire month in a foreign country to only have a chance to qualify for Code S and win a max of $1500.
One weekend on the other hand would entice a lot of foreign players to try their hand. Just look at how many foreigners came out to Korea when this is how it used to be during the open tournaments.
The reason many players wouldn't go to Korea to participate in Code A is that Code A is a month long tournament, and Korea doesn't have any tournaments besides that. So it's much more lucrative for players to play weekly cups and attend the different weekend long tournament like MLG, Dreamhack, Assembly, IEM etc.. and have multiple opportunities to win the same amount or even more money than in Korea. It's not really GomTV's "fault", but rather the fault of the GSL centric e-sports environment in Korea.
On June 01 2011 21:45 Mentor wrote: The reason many players wouldn't go to Korea to participate in Code A is that Code A is a month long tournament, and Korea doesn't have any tournaments besides that. So it's much more lucrative for players to play weekly cups and attend the different weekend long tournament like MLG, Dreamhack, Assembly, IEM etc.. and have multiple opportunities to win the same amount or even more money than in Korea. It's not really GomTV's "fault", but rather the fault of the GSL centric e-sports environment in Korea.
true to some extent but the payout is great if you a code S player.
This 'more money in foreigner scene!' is total BS. Did you know that Hoseo San made more money in prize than any foreign pros in SC2? (edit: except Jinro)
The only problem with GSL set up is that it does not reward bad players that much. If you are a top player and want to make money, IMO, you are wasting your time in foreign scene unless you want to help local scene develop.
On June 01 2011 22:09 Yemack wrote: This 'more money in foreigner scene!' is total BS. Did you know that Hoseo San made more money in prize than any foreign pros in SC2? (edit: except Jinro)
And except SjoW. And WhiteRa, Naama, Naniwa, Fenix and IdrA. Get your facts straight.
The only problem with GSL set up is that it does not reward bad players that much. If you are a top player and want to make money, IMO, you are wasting your time in foreign scene unless you want to help local scene develop.
On June 01 2011 22:09 Yemack wrote: This 'more money in foreigner scene!' is total BS. Did you know that Hoseo San made more money in prize than any foreign pros in SC2? (edit: except Jinro)
And except SjoW. And WhiteRa, Naama, Naniwa, Fenix and IdrA. Get your facts straight.
From what I know, San made more. He listed a source. You didn't. List a source before you get defensive.
The only problem with GSL set up is that it does not reward bad players that much. If you are a top player and want to make money, IMO, you are wasting your time in foreign scene unless you want to help local scene develop.
like TSL Rain and BitByBitPrime for example?
if you have common sense you would know they are exceptions not norm
On June 02 2011 00:25 Panicc wrote: has anyone asked a korean pro or the korean community if they would prefer "our" proscene with daily cups and every week a big online tournament ?
I think everyone likes a mix. Having a big 'this is the most important' tournament is good and I really like that, but also it would be nice to see Nestea outside of GSL without him having 500ms.
I think that while Gom is doing a great job of making integration of foreign and Korean sc2 scenes a reality, I think that everyone just needs to be aware that there are ALWAYS things that can still he done...responsibility for integration shouldn't rest only with the Korean scene either ...thats not what I'm saying...the drive has to be there for foreigners too. But discussion and new ideas need to keep happening....that way progress is more exponential rather than linear....so in short, everyone is doing a good job, but i dont Think for a second that everyone is doing everything possible. There is always room for improvement, imo.
It would be nice if the price to watch the GSL and GTSL season would go down, more people would watch the show and it would help the korean players to build up an international fanbase tremendously.
The only problem with GSL set up is that it does not reward bad players that much. If you are a top player and want to make money, IMO, you are wasting your time in foreign scene unless you want to help local scene develop.
like TSL Rain and BitByBitPrime for example?
GSL has gotten infinitely tougher since then. Why do you think TSL Rain is no longer Code S and BitByBit has disappeared from the scene entirely?
MLG July vs Kiwkikaki, mr Chae just translated for (very happy) JulyZerg and said "he's suprised so many ppl cheer for him and he wants to come to MLG every year", and then added "and you guys should also be in the GSL" (foreigners)
i love you mr chae. so sad our players dont have character.
On June 05 2011 06:03 snailz wrote: MLG July vs Kiwkikaki, mr Chae just translated for (very happy) JulyZerg and said "he's suprised so many ppl cheer for him and he wants to come to MLG every year", and then added "and you guys should also be in the GSL" (foreigners)
i love you mr chae. so sad our players dont have character.
Really, players don't have character because they don't go the GSL?
...
Thats honestly completely wrong... and well... dumb in general.
it has been widely discussed in this subject, and it goes something in the lines "they dont go cause they are scared of the koreans". how can u single me out, for god sake? my post was about MLG live action five minutes ago concerning gentleman who made the OP, i dont need a flame war with some american just insulting with no constructive input
There are really legitimate reasons for foreigners not wanting to participate in the GSL. IMO code A should just be a 3 day tournament like MLG, that would solve most of the problems that foreign progamers have with the GSL. There really is no reason to go to Korea for a whole month to play in a tournament with such low prize money.
GSL is doing good however, the scheduling conflict goes a bit deeper in that it's not the stay in Korea for a month or so that's the problem. The problem is that it's two tournaments that overlapped each other and foreign players decided that MLG would be the better bet to seize victory (Going to Korea to do Round 1 = Jet Lagged, Go back to MLG to do that tournament and be more Jet Lagged, then come back to finish GSL with ultra jet lag). While both tournaments are prestigious, they probably don't have enough strength to pull off a hectic schedule like that (remember way back in 2004 when Slient Control fainted on OnGameNet during a live broadcast? Don't want a repeat of that).
More than likely this was a one time freak schedule accident. Maybe in the future tournaments can be scheduled a bit better to accommodate each other (not changing the format, just postponing the whole tournament for a little bit). Here's my thoughts on the current GSL format.
To me, I'm not a fan of the whole Code A and Code S thing. That just complicates things. To me it would make more sense to just have a major league and a minor league.
Major league can have some pretty strict preliminary rounds similar to how MSL Survivor and the lost Dual Tournament did in addition to some heavy offline preliminaries.
Minor league can start a little after the main pool for the Major league gets past all the preliminary rounds and run concurrently with the restriction that those who qualified in the main league cannot participate in that current minor league. Minor league would run almost exactly like the Classic league that GOMTV did for the original Brood War tournaments (have like 128 single elimination slug fest).
On June 05 2011 06:25 SSLPrism wrote: Wow, way to include yourself as a 'foreigner' then yet single me out because I live in America.
i singled you out cause its rude to call someone dumb for no real reason, in europe.
also, because starcraft is korea and vice-versa, we are all foreigners. so i did not include or exclude anyone in that regard, its just the way it is.
On June 05 2011 06:25 SSLPrism wrote: I have not seen the character of the players discussed, I have seen the skill level discussed, just because you also addressed something else in your post, does not mean it negates your foolish, ignorant attacks.
I hope you can see the situation more clearly, nobody wants to start a flame war, but nobody wants ignorant comments towards koreans, foreigners, or anyone really in general.
I'm proud of where I live, I hope you are too.
"foolish, ignorant times two"... notice i dont insult you even after all that. some people and their manners, really...
before this goes on, i suggest you read more of this thread, and get back to me. as i said, foreigners character, as well as their skill level, profesionalism, dedication, potenial, future - has been discussed in great length.
On June 05 2011 06:25 SSLPrism wrote: I have not seen the character of the players discussed, I have seen the skill level discussed, just because you also addressed something else in your post, does not mean it negates your foolish, ignorant attacks.
I hope you can see the situation more clearly, nobody wants to start a flame war, but nobody wants ignorant comments towards koreans, foreigners, or anyone really in general.
I'm proud of where I live, I hope you are too.
"foolish, ignorant times two"... notice i dont insult you even after all that. some people and their manners, really...
before this goes on, i suggest you read more of this thread, and get back to me. as i said, foreigners character, as well as their skill level, profesionalism, dedication, potenial, future - has been discussed in great length.
I actually have read this entire thread, I hope you will go back and do this same.
I also hope you can in the future actually read my comments and understand what I am saying, instead of picking apart words and directing them towards a different use, and misinterpreting the meaning.
Im not saying you're dumb, I'm saying your opinion on this matter is dumb, I hope you can not use generalizations, stereotypes, and typical foreigner bashing in the future, but oh well, I'm damn proud to live where I live.
On June 05 2011 06:03 snailz wrote: MLG July vs Kiwkikaki, mr Chae just translated for (very happy) JulyZerg and said "he's suprised so many ppl cheer for him and he wants to come to MLG every year", and then added "and you guys should also be in the GSL" (foreigners)
i love you mr chae. so sad our players dont have character.
Really, players don't have character because they don't go the GSL?
...
Thats honestly completely wrong... and well... dumb in general.
You know you could be a little nicer and say :
"How come they don't have character ? I was sure they'd have it but maybe i'm wrong"
There. The forum will be way more pleasant to read
On May 27 2011 20:14 Feijichang wrote: True competitors will be drawn to the GSL, not for the money, but to be the best.
Homesickness and not being intrigued by competing in a foreign country are the weakest thing I've ever heard, and obviously those people are not "professional" gamers. It's a month...
I see your points. However I think this is looking at it a bit harsh.
On the one hand being in 'it for the money' is what allows you to be a pro. If you are not making enough money to make a living at it:
a) You will not be able to afford to do it full time. Many players will have to add work to their schedule. Which means, time away from dedicating yourself to the sport. Which means your playing could likely suffer.
Which means your chances of staying pro - and making money doing it - get worse.
and
b) Its not only the risk of going to Korea and possibly not ranking high enough to quality for prize winnings ...
... its also most sources of income you have at home - including all the tourneys you have a better shot at winning - are put on hold. Its the money you lose out on, not only the money you might not make.
The homesickness thing for most guys is probably 'on top of' these two major concerns. And admittedly kind of lame if it's near the top of the list (really??). No desire / too lame to experience another culture? Well that I would have no respect for lol.
On June 05 2011 06:03 snailz wrote: MLG July vs Kiwkikaki, mr Chae just translated for (very happy) JulyZerg and said "he's suprised so many ppl cheer for him and he wants to come to MLG every year", and then added "and you guys should also be in the GSL" (foreigners)
i love you mr chae. so sad our players dont have character.
Dude,
July is a multiple BW champion. As well as a runner up in the GSL. And many, many other tourneys. And his sponsorships on top of it.
If he's been smart with his money? Then the guy is a financial baller in comparison to 90% of the foreigners.
Money does matter. Does it not limit or change your own choices? Yes.
Look at Yao Ming (I am Chinese). Yao Ming wasn't even that great of a player
I'm sorry I don't want to sidetrack this but... what....
Yao Ming not even that great of a player? The guy averaged 20 points and 10 rebounds AND an amazing FT% as well meaning he can get to the line and score points. It's only because he was injury plagued that his career didn't gain nearly as much momentum as it could have. Don't understate a great player like that.
I was refering to when he was first signed in to the NBA. He had not proven himself in any foreign league and was primarily a promising local rookie.
If GSL runs on schedules that fits foreign tournaments, short tourneys that doesn't take a long time to focus on, then potentially all the top Koreans can participate in all the foreign tourney as well. Do you think it would still be a lucrative opportunity for foreign Pro-gamers in western tournaments? I think their chances will decrease dramatically.
The GSL is a tough league. To draw more foreign competitors their reward for foreigners need to be better. It is something to strive for if GOM TV wish to expand their market. They have conquered the Korean market, and to see more growth they should and must focus internationally. My point is, if they want to be Global, they need a big investment that will draw people to go there.
Give out team contracts to play in the GSL. Pay them. Use sponsership to expand internationally. If and when they are ready to do that, many teams would want to participate.
On June 05 2011 06:03 snailz wrote: MLG July vs Kiwkikaki, mr Chae just translated for (very happy) JulyZerg and said "he's suprised so many ppl cheer for him and he wants to come to MLG every year", and then added "and you guys should also be in the GSL" (foreigners)
i love you mr chae. so sad our players dont have character.
Dude,
July is a multiple BW champion. As well as a runner up in the GSL. And many, many other tourneys. And his sponsorships on top of it.
If he's been smart with his money? Then the guy is a financial baller in comparison to 90% of the foreigners.
Money does matter. Does it not limit or change your own choices? Yes.
Think.
lol. have i said otherwise? you see, money has been discussed as well, and most agreed that while u may lose some money now from smaller tournaments, investment in your skill and more importantly popularity will bring u a lot more money in the future - if u go to korea. examples were "mediocre" foreigners in the GSL like moonglade that now have thousands of viewers on stream (money) and dozens of lesson takers (money), while before GSL nobody even heard about that aussie. and to some who really belive in eSPORTS, getting better and increasing skill in more competative enviroment will pay for itself later on, even if somehow GSL doesnt make you famous. which it does, lets face it.
going to Korea is a win-win for anyone not having legitimate reasons not to, like WhiteRa ie. i will always respect Huk even tho i dont love him, cause he put everything on the line to follow his dream. imagine if he stopped for a minute, and "thought" like u suggest to me.
I'm so glad that now after this MLG, we can finally shut up all those so called 'fans' who claim foreigner are best, they didnt go to GSL coz bla, bla, bla.
Face it. Only quite a few foreigners could survive after going to Korea. The skill gap is too big.
On June 06 2011 14:09 ehalf wrote: I'm so glad that now after this MLG, we can finally shut up all those so called 'fans' who claim foreigner are best, they didnt go to GSL coz bla, bla, bla.
Face it. Only quite a few foreigners could survive after going to Korea. The skill gap is too big.
yes im sure the pool of so called "foreigner" players in mlg reflects all notable "foreigner" players currently.
On June 06 2011 14:09 ehalf wrote: I'm so glad that now after this MLG, we can finally shut up all those so called 'fans' who claim foreigner are best, they didnt go to GSL coz bla, bla, bla.
Face it. Only quite a few foreigners could survive after going to Korea. The skill gap is too big.
yes im sure the pool of so called "foreigner" players in mlg reflects all notable "foreigner" players currently.
o wait
So glad that u will magically think of another notable foreigner. Plz dont mention WhiteRa/ Dimaga/Sen. Even if there are still many capable foreigners, are you sure they can easily rape current foreign players like the Koreans do this time?
The Korean comments in the other thread seemed to really like MLG. If they are OK with weekend tournaments, maybe GSL should host a few of their own throughout the year in Korea and forigners can go to that. (don't copy MLG's horrible format though I'm sure they can do better even if its straight double elimination.)
Although, if you think about how hard it would be to win that tournament with all the Koreans in it I bet few foreigners would go anyways.
I like the idea of code A being a speedy tourney. That makes it similar to Starleague qualifiers. In fact, I'd rather they combine the code A qualifier with Code A, it would make streaky talented players more likely to get a shot at the big time.
So here's a thought: what if a top foreigner asked for a larger salary to go to Korea on condition that he practices more hours per day? I think a team might take him up on that, especially since there are so few foreigners in Korea, the entire scene would be rooting for him and boost that teams visibility both in Korea and abroad.
On June 06 2011 14:49 coolcor wrote: The Korean comments in the other thread seemed to really like MLG. If they are OK with weekend tournaments, maybe GSL should host a few of their own throughout the year in Korea and forigners can go to that. (don't copy MLG's horrible format though I'm sure they can do better even if its straight double elimination.)
Although, if you think about how hard it would be to win that tournament with all the Koreans in it I bet few foreigners would go anyways.
On June 06 2011 14:54 0neder wrote: I like the idea of code A being a speedy tourney. That makes it similar to Starleague qualifiers. In fact, I'd rather they combine the code A qualifier with Code A, it would make streaky talented players more likely to get a shot at the big time.
I really love this idea of Code A being a qualifier/weekend kind of thing, that would be so brilliant. I also think that it would help iron out a lot of conflicts between foreigners wanting to go over there and the Koreans who live there.
EPT
maybe Empire?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TbY98.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6UGJg.png)
i feel they are a stronger team but GL to FxO maybe they can prove me wrong and show some competition in the GSTL
