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On May 27 2011 20:13 Crazyeyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote:
Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option' - why would Liquid who was willing once to have their entire team (or close to it) in Korea do it again when they can just lease HuK and Jinro off to oGs or another team? Well, first off... the Korean teams have to accept the players. However, I don't think that there is any team right now that would want to send their full team, but isnt because there isn't an easier option. It's just that most people would prefer not to go. This makes it much easier for single or very small groups (2-3) players go to Korea for GSL. I'm thinking Naniwa for example might really love this. Show nested quote +
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
Its about the fame and the glory! Winning a prestegious tournament like the GSL is a great title. And of course the nice first place and second place prize pool. I think language, lifestyle, and leaving friends behind are small things that aren't really valid excuses. Thats what happens when you go to a new place -- it's an experience. And theyre not too difficult to work around. Cost and time commitment on the other hand... Well, I think its really mostly about the prestige. If you're in it for just the money, GSL really isnt a good option for a foreigner.
You got it the wrong way around.
"Lifestyle" and leaving friends behind are the really big issues. Time commitment is part of "lifestyle", see earlier posts around how different schedules are in Korean houses, or Idra's interviews months back on why he preferred to pull back from Korea.
Cost is the smaller issue. You can take on debt; if you're successful you'll pay it off, if not, you'll have to find another source of income (sc2 or not) and pay it off later.
Don't get me wrong, money is important, but in the end money is just money -- as dire as your current financial situation may seem, just by traveling you won't dig yourself a hole that you won't be able to work your way out of within a decade from now. (I know what I'm talking about.)
Leaving behind your entire social circle for a serious amount of time, and for reasons that they may not value as much as you do, is not something that you can simply pay back later -- some friendships will be lost, many opportunities for new social contacts will be gone. If you don't speak the language and aren't embedded in the Korean culture, there's no way you can compensate for that during your time there.
Especially given that many of the progamers are at an age which is often considered the prime time to start finding serious partners and (socially) getting settled, that is not something to shrug off easily.
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On May 27 2011 20:08 dhcustom wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote:
Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option'. Also, do the prizes from GSTL go to the team themselves or the players? Would foreigners get equal prizemoney to the original players?
Trying to follow your favourite foreigner/team could also cause issues especially if players switch teams each time they go over to participate.
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment. This. The OP doesn't actually address the specific issues that are creating this problem in the first place. His "backward universe" analogy just creates a circular argument and he mentions nothing about the language, lifestyle, the length/potential profitability of the tournament and whatnot. There is just no substance to his argument. So which concerns exactly from the foreigners do you not understand?
I was mostly replying to this:
However the problem with new format is that it makes it difficult for foreign teams to participate in team league as they will have to stay in Korea for 2 months.
I tried my best to solve this problem and although I admit this is not the perfect solution here it is.
Firstly, “Foreign players can now participate as a mercenary in Korean team”.
On May 27 2011 20:13 Crazyeyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote:
Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option' - why would Liquid who was willing once to have their entire team (or close to it) in Korea do it again when they can just lease HuK and Jinro off to oGs or another team? Well, first off... the Korean teams have to accept the players. However, I don't think that there is any team right now that would want to send their full team, but isnt because there isn't an easier option. It's just that most people would prefer not to go. This makes it much easier for single or very small groups (2-3) players go to Korea for GSL. I'm thinking Naniwa for example might really love this.
The OP said directly that they have talked to a team/s that want to go. I just hope there's no resentment from the Koreans about this seeing foreigners getting this special treatment and what might be seen as a commitment free way of playing for a top team in a prestigious tournament.
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On May 27 2011 20:18 GTR wrote:
oh and if i were to make one suggestion to mr. chae... give ogn/mbc broadcasting rights to produce their own sc2 broadcasts. i'm sure as long as they don't schedule their games at the same time as kespa leagues (osl/msl/pl/sfpl) and the gom leagues, it will be beneficial for everyone (more leagues, more exposure, more viewer accessibility).
They can't do it cause some station bought exclusive rights to broadcast sc2 for a year on TV from gom.
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On May 27 2011 20:18 Skilledblob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 20:16 Kazeyonoma wrote:
and with 1 fail swoop, Gom shows it's maturity and awesomeness, and makes fnatic managers look like fucking assholes. gg.
you have no clue about team management and all the stuff that comes with it when you think that Xeris just wanted to flame GOM TV
what does the difficulties of team management have to do with what i said. I said the rants and raves that the team management posted by fnatic have been mostly whine posts about minor things that are downright insulting to the korean sub culture who believe in striving to be the best. they are big names for a big team, and what they say can negatively reflect upon the foreign scene, so much so that mr chae had to come here and respond to it because he himself was shocked. yes it takes a lot of effort and lot of things do have to be taken into account to manage a team, but when gom offers you a fully paid trip and housing to go play in their tournament, and you claim you'll turn it down because of these trivial lifestyle problems, it just makes you sound like a whiner. Gom has been nothing but supportive and responsive in a professional manner, i can't say the same for foreigners responses (not all, like i said, the loud minority).
If you have legal obligations to contracts, or you can't go because you're married, that's fine, say that's why, and move on, but don't try to put it on GOM and blame GOM for their efforts as not far reaching enough. What do you want them to do? pay for your wife and kids to come over here too? build you a faster overseas internet connection so you can play in online tournaments as well?
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Kind of ridiculous to ask a person living outside korea to come to the gom house for an entire month with only $1500 on the line --- If they win. You can make that here in Canada working at Mcdonalds. In addition to dedicating an entire month to a tournament that has very steep competition they ave to put up with living conditions that are not at all like the ones seen in foreign countries. The experience is no doubt an amazing one, and the practice would be second to none, but there is alot going on in the foreigner scene that is more comfortable for foreign players, and is more lucrative. For the most part, Koreans stayed in Korea, and foreigners stuck to the foreigner scene. Sure there were exceptions but I dont think this is something that will change overnight, and you cannot expect it too with the foreigner scene getting massive attention.
If you win MLG you now get a spot in Code S, but Koreans who enter MLG get directly seeded into the championship bracket, and earn points that will keep them in the championship bracket. This immediately makes the never leave the championship bracket without having to ever earn their way there. They dont have to play 15 sets during the open bracket vs countless styles of all-ins and they are never tested vs worse players. I dont feel this is fair.
I can see how going to play in Code A is a great opportunity, but for the top foreign players the only logical reason to go would be for better practice, in the hope of better results down the line due to their experience and training in Korea.
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On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote:
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
Just curious, what, exactly, do you expect GOM to do about the language/culture barrier, and leaving friends behind? The whole of Korea must start speaking English so that western teams can compete in GSL, obviously. And fly every friend and family member of every competitor to the GSL as well.
Also:
On May 27 2011 20:16 Kazeyonoma wrote:
and with 1 fail swoop, Gom shows it's maturity and awesomeness, and makes fnatic managers look like fucking assholes. gg.
It always gives me a little bit of amusement when people mess up cliches, but "one fail swoop" is so ironic it's downright awesome.
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Very interesting post, thanks for coming here and giving us your thoughts. I look forward to see how GSL develop 
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51600 Posts
On May 27 2011 20:24 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 20:18 GTR wrote:
oh and if i were to make one suggestion to mr. chae... give ogn/mbc broadcasting rights to produce their own sc2 broadcasts. i'm sure as long as they don't schedule their games at the same time as kespa leagues (osl/msl/pl/sfpl) and the gom leagues, it will be beneficial for everyone (more leagues, more exposure, more viewer accessibility). They can't do it cause some station bought exclusive rights to broadcast sc2 for a year on TV from gom.
anibox only have the exclusive rights to broadcast the gsl. anything else is free reign.
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GSL is the best tournament on earth.Some people will always complain so don't pay attention to them.
Just one thing. do not do ANY INVITATIONS !
Gom invited a bunch of foreigners for the GSL World Championship. That was BAD. We need online qualifiers / continent offline qualifiers/ whatever.
NO INVITATIONS
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I love you - and the gsl - seriously
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I really like GOMs efforts to try and incorporate foreigners into the Korean scene.
The one thing that bothers me a bit is that I feel they still kinda expect the scene to develop faster than it really is. I mena, SC2 is growing fast, but not THAT fast. Top SC2 players arent rock stars or highly profiled sportmen like, say, top tennis players which can travel everywhere they want. The SC2 players still dont have more than a (from what I've understood) moderate/low salary from their team, so when going around the world they're dependant on their team, which in turn is dependant on their sponsors. And as much money as being pumped into esports through sponsors, it's still not really enough to send teams all around the globe to compete. The relation between travel+housing costs vs sponsor fundings+price money gains is still largely "favoring" the costs.
That said, I think its amazing what GOM is trying to do, and all their effeorts are great for us foreigners. But I kinda think they shouldnt expect foreigners to come flying over to Korea at every chance like they seem to do. Not only does than mean they leave behind friends/family/possibly better living conditions (and Im sure there are plenty of foreigners who would be willing to do this to live their dream, like OP says Nestea or MVP would do), but its also a very high chance it wont be profitable for them.
Give it some time, it will surely happen as things evolve, but dont expect it to happen over night.
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On May 27 2011 20:25 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote:
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment. Just curious, what, exactly, do you expect GOM to do about the language/culture barrier, and leaving friends behind? The whole of Korea must start speaking English so that western teams can compete in GSL, obviously. And fly every friend and family member of every competitor to the GSL as well. Also: Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 20:16 Kazeyonoma wrote:
and with 1 fail swoop, Gom shows it's maturity and awesomeness, and makes fnatic managers look like fucking assholes. gg. It always gives me a little bit of amusement when people mess up cliches, but "one fail swoop" is so ironic it's downright awesome.
lol whoops, was pretty heated in my response. corrected! ;P
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On May 27 2011 20:24 deL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 20:08 dhcustom wrote:On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote:
Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option'. Also, do the prizes from GSTL go to the team themselves or the players? Would foreigners get equal prizemoney to the original players?
Trying to follow your favourite foreigner/team could also cause issues especially if players switch teams each time they go over to participate.
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment. This. The OP doesn't actually address the specific issues that are creating this problem in the first place. His "backward universe" analogy just creates a circular argument and he mentions nothing about the language, lifestyle, the length/potential profitability of the tournament and whatnot. There is just no substance to his argument. So which concerns exactly from the foreigners do you not understand? I was mostly replying to this: Show nested quote +However the problem with new format is that it makes it difficult for foreign teams to participate in team league as they will have to stay in Korea for 2 months.
I tried my best to solve this problem and although I admit this is not the perfect solution here it is.
Firstly, “Foreign players can now participate as a mercenary in Korean team”. Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 20:13 Crazyeyes wrote:On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote:
Mixed feelings about this - on one hand I think the GSTL is the best platform for foreigners to remain competitive with the best Korean players (without the preparation time I don't think as much will differentiate the players) but having this easy option also discourages full foreign teams from going to participate as there is always an 'easier option' - why would Liquid who was willing once to have their entire team (or close to it) in Korea do it again when they can just lease HuK and Jinro off to oGs or another team? Well, first off... the Korean teams have to accept the players. However, I don't think that there is any team right now that would want to send their full team, but isnt because there isn't an easier option. It's just that most people would prefer not to go. This makes it much easier for single or very small groups (2-3) players go to Korea for GSL. I'm thinking Naniwa for example might really love this. The OP said directly that they have talked to a team/s that want to go. I just hope there's no resentment from the Koreans about this seeing foreigners getting this special treatment and what might be seen as a commitment free way of playing for a top team in a prestigious tournament.
I quoted the wrong portion of your post sry
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On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote:
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment.
On May 27 2011 20:08 dhcustom wrote:
This. The OP doesn't actually address the specific issues that are creating this problem in the first place. His "backward universe" analogy just creates a circular argument and he mentions nothing about the language, lifestyle, the length/potential profitability of the tournament and whatnot. There is just no substance to his argument. So which concerns exactly from the foreigners do you not understand?
Where you guys reading objectively or did you have blinders on? He said "most of the reasons mentioned are something GOMTV can’t solve(I doubt anyone can)". I agree, what can GOM reasonably do about it? And he's right that the only solution is that "Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort."
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Wow, really nice that you listen to the communities! I hope to see more foreign players in korea!
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On May 27 2011 20:24 Phayze wrote:
If you win MLG you now get a spot in Code S, but Koreans who enter MLG get directly seeded into the championship bracket, and earn points that will keep them in the championship bracket. This immediately makes the never leave the championship bracket without having to ever earn their way there. They dont have to play 15 sets during the open bracket vs countless styles of all-ins and they are never tested vs worse players. I dont feel this is fair.
I can see how going to play in Code A is a great opportunity, but for the top foreign players the only logical reason to go would be for better practice, in the hope of better results down the line due to their experience and training in Korea.
They have to go through open bracket the next time they attend MLG, unless they all place 1,2,3,4. Which is very unlikely.
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On May 27 2011 20:24 Phayze wrote:
Kind of ridiculous to ask a person living outside korea to come to the gom house for an entire month with only $1500 on the line --- If they win. You can make that here in Canada working at Mcdonalds. In addition to dedicating an entire month to a tournament that has very steep competition they ave to put up with living conditions that are not at all like the ones seen in foreign countries. The experience is no doubt an amazing one, and the practice would be second to none, but there is alot going on in the foreigner scene that is more comfortable for foreign players, and is more lucrative. For the most part, Koreans stayed in Korea, and foreigners stuck to the foreigner scene. Sure there were exceptions but I dont think this is something that will change overnight, and you cannot expect it too with the foreigner scene getting massive attention.
1,5k and a seed into Code S (winner doesn't need to go through the up-and-down matches).
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On May 27 2011 20:25 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 20:03 deL wrote:
It also doesn't really help the problems raised about language, lifestyle, leaving friends behind, cost of getting there or the big time commitment. Just curious, what, exactly, do you expect GOM to do about the language/culture barrier, and leaving friends behind? The whole of Korea must start speaking English so that western teams can compete in GSL, obviously. And fly every friend and family member of every competitor to the GSL as well. Also: Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 20:16 Kazeyonoma wrote:
and with 1 fail swoop, Gom shows it's maturity and awesomeness, and makes fnatic managers look like fucking assholes. gg. It always gives me a little bit of amusement when people mess up cliches, but "one fail swoop" is so ironic it's downright awesome.
I don't really suggest they try to fix that, it was just listed there as one of the issues that has been raised. Just because you can't think of a way to alleviate it right away doesn't mean you should stop trying though
For a start, I imagine a lot of the reason the language and lifestyle change is a problem is because of the living conditions in Korean houses and because players rarely have the time or English fluency to chat. Also it doesn't seem there's much effective communication with coaches or staff either. Note that language is a problem not only when ordering your dinner but in the practice room - it limits how effective your practice can be when the coach doesn't speak your own language very well.
Perhaps there should be more dedicated translators to help the players get involved, or take the players as a group off to do touristy things so they don't feel so isolated.
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On May 27 2011 20:18 GTR wrote:
oh and if i were to make one suggestion to mr. chae... give ogn/mbc broadcasting rights to produce their own sc2 broadcasts. i'm sure as long as they don't schedule their games at the same time as kespa leagues (osl/msl/pl/sfpl) and the gom leagues, it will be beneficial for everyone (more leagues, more exposure, more viewer accessibility).
Even small/amateur tournaments will help a ton, injecting money to make progaming more viable, and attract new followers in Korea to boost the scene through their broadcasts.
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EPT
