EPTIt's not that westerners are inherently inferior - they just lack the same means the korean players are provided with. There are no team houses where they can practice all day and devise strategies. There are no coaches to analyze countless hours of replays and vods with them. Add in the fact that there's an undeniable stigma against video games in the western hemisphere (where the general population tends to regard it as a childish pastime), then it's logical that the drive to push to be the best is very rare.
Korea needs to start paying attention to the West - Page 7
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displaced
22 Posts
It's not that westerners are inherently inferior - they just lack the same means the korean players are provided with. There are no team houses where they can practice all day and devise strategies. There are no coaches to analyze countless hours of replays and vods with them. Add in the fact that there's an undeniable stigma against video games in the western hemisphere (where the general population tends to regard it as a childish pastime), then it's logical that the drive to push to be the best is very rare. | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On May 26 2011 04:38 Assirra wrote: And they are giving a Code S to the winner of MLG while the koreans need to go through a brutal qualifier and then make it through the up and down matches. and Koreans still get the better deal. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
Have 4-5 Major tournaments, that run on for a couple of weeks, just like in Tennis (French Open, Wimbledon, US open, Australian Open), and in between each major tournaments are small tournaments/exhibition/showmatches used for training. I don't see why this format couldn't be adapted for SC2. And people are ranked using similar ranking system used in Tennis. The biggest flaw I can see with this is the fact that there's not enough money in the SC2 scene to justify flying players 4-5 times a year just to play in a big tournament in which the chance of them winning isn't guaranteed. But I feel that once enough money is being brought into SC2, that this format could easily succeed. There would be no longer the whole "korea vs foreigner" thing any more, it would be a straight up player vs player. If foreigners still continue lose to the koreans, then there is no excuses, except for the fact that their teams/clans aren't offering enough support/infrastructure for their players to win, and players should consider switching over to a different clan after contracts have ended. | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
Is there something wrong with that? Do foreigners deserve to get the better deal? | ||
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vindKtiv
United States215 Posts
On May 26 2011 04:06 LoveCrashes wrote: I think that the moving of MLG and GSL to collaborate their player bases together is perhaps what makes this article obsolete. Suddenly the players don't have to live in Korea to play (they can obviously make the trip for given tournaments). What I hope is that because their is now a collaboration, korean players will be forced to adapt to a western style play and western players will be forced to adapt to korean style play. I think Day[9] made a comment during one of IdrA's games during MLG Dallas as the 'korean curse' players play over in korea and it affects their playing style such that when they come over to the west they don't play 'our' style essentially. What I'm getting at is this; a universal style between both sides of the world. Meh, maybe it's just me having a John Lennon streak with my SC2 gaming... In case you didn't know, you DO need to live in Korea to play in the GSL. The GSL is a month-long tournament, how do you expect to play in all your matches if you won't live there for a month? The MLG and GSL collaboration hasn't made this article obsolete because the MLG and GSL didn't fix anything in the first place. Second of all, Korean's don't need to "adapt" to our playing as much as they need to prepare better and get more adapted to playing with off-region latency. People have been talking about how the Koreans probably didn't prepare as much for the TSL because they needed to prepare for the GSL. And third of all, there isn't a specific "style" that the foreigners play with, so that if you suddenly know the "style" then you can win against them. If only three players go to Korea after the MLG, then Koreans won't suddenly be forced to "adapt" to the foreign "style" and suddenly win against the foreigners. The point is, Korea has GSL and the United States has MLG. Offering to make it easier for players to go to other places is fine, but honestly you're making it sound like its gonna be the next best thing since sliced bread. It's not. For Koreans, they already get invites to Dreamhack, NASL, TSL, and other tournaments. For foreigners, if they ever see a reason to go to Korea, they would go. Right now, there really isn't a good reason, and the MLG and GSL collaboration is not a good reason. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On May 26 2011 04:47 rysecake wrote: Is there something wrong with that? Do foreigners deserve to get the better deal? Foreigners deserve a equal deal. Its pretty obvious: Getting seeded for MLG (without having to qualify/ prove themselves in the mlg circuit) >>> 1 person getting code S (have to do up/down matches, and then stay in code S for a while longer just to have a chance of winning big money, all while missing a shit ton of tourneys) and 4 for code A (month long tourney to win like 1 dollar) You treat foreigners as if they're dogs compared to koreans, while might I remind you, Jinro/Idra/Huk all have had decent success in Korea, which is pretty freaking good considering the percentage of foreigners going to Korea. So far foreigner percentage for (foreigners doing decent in korea/ foreigners who went to korea to compete), is > than (koreans doing decent in korea/ koreans who try to compete). | ||
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PHC
United States472 Posts
On May 26 2011 04:34 StarBrift wrote: Seeds into the championship bracket of a 3 day long event with more prize money than anything in korea except for code S. You mean, more prize money than code A? You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig. Notice how you deliberately left out the Code S prizepool to prove a point. | ||
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Virid
United States130 Posts
Imagine a world where the major players in the tournament scene - MLG, Gom, and the many pro teams (Korean and English) could arrange not just tournament schedules, but also travel arrangements and living costs. The players are the commodity here, and it is the responsibility of these 3 forces to ensure their participation in these events. Quite honestly, too much burden is placed on the pro players to provide for themselves and train themselves. I don't think the pros need pampering, but how could something so integral to the success of esports like physical movement between Korea and the West be this difficult to manage? Pro players should only have one worry - getting better at the game. Going to tourny X or tourny Y should never be a question, any pro player should be able to do both without any significant logistical hurdles. Why is every tournament stepping on every other tournament's toes? I can understand online tournaments overlapping some, the time investment is so miniscule that you could play five a day. But MLG and GSL are the two BIGGEST Sc2 tournaments in their region, and they are running into each other? GSL needs a format change. It doesn't need to be a huge one, but it needs to PROVIDE TIMESLOTS for other tournaments to exist. This is ABSOLUTELY crucial to Korea progamers that will need to stretch out across the globe if sc2 continues to stagnate in Korea. It is to all region's benefit that GSL builds in breaks. At the same time, MLG, IEM, etc need to bend to the GSL's schedule and ensure that there is no overlap. Communication, communication, communication. Once these groups begin understanding each other, and their respective needs, we will be able to unify as a community and defeat the language barrier that stands in our way. | ||
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Sein
United States1811 Posts
TL guys in the oGs house have a room for themselves rather than having to share with the Korean guys. They didn't start rooming with "complete strangers" right off the bat unless the TL members somehow never knew each other before meeting in Korea. Do you really want GSL to arrange a spacious single room with luxuriously decorated private bathroom for each foreigner in one of the world's most expensive cities? On the issue of there not being enough sc2 tournaments in Korea, yes, I do agree that it is a problem at the moment, not only for the foreigners, but even for the Korean SC2 progamers. However, with Blizzard and KeSPA finally calling a truce, I expect there to be more SC2 events in Korea in near future. Leaving your home and possibly family is another legitimate concern, but like I said, you are moving to a different country for your profession that you are presumably passionate about. It's going to have to involve a risk one way or another. It's the same for every profession. I love TL's willingness to venture by forming a partnership with oGs. If Fnatic doesn't want to take a risk, then that is absolutely fair enough. You guys are free to do whatever you want and nobody doubts the fact that you have a team of great players. However, I hope you stop trying to make GSL and Korea look like they're doing you some serious injustice when they have actually been going out of their way to be more welcoming to the foreigners. Look at White-Ra, a brilliant player who would give many of the Korean players a good fight, choosing not to move to Korea because he is content with his stable family life in Ukraine. The difference between him and OP/Xeris is that he isn't crying about "The Korean Problem" or "Korea needs to start paying attention to the West". PS - On a personal note, I think some people make an excessively big deal out of adjusting to new cultures, based on my experience of having done it twice and knowing a lot of others who went through it. Korea doesn't consist of huge jungles with little huts every 10 miles. Seoul is one of the most modernized cities in the world and you won't have problems getting western food anytime anywhere you crave for it. They love spaghetti and burgers over there too and have a ton of non-Korean food restaurants. Jinro and Huk seem to have good Korea friends over there and Huk in particular looks like he's quite into the Korea pop culture. It's great to see. Also, many Koreans do speak some English (albeit pretty broken, lol). | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On May 26 2011 04:58 Virid wrote: Pro players should only have one worry - getting better at the game. Going to tourny X or tourny Y should never be a question, any pro player should be able to do both without any significant logistical hurdles. Why is every tournament stepping on every other tournament's toes? I can understand online tournaments overlapping some, the time investment is so miniscule that you could play five a day. But MLG and GSL are the two BIGGEST Sc2 tournaments in their region, and they are running into each other? Incorrect, the "pro" in progamer signifies getting paid. The whole point of being a "pro" gamer is to get paid for playing, not actually to get better. Usually being the best correlates with getting paid more, however in the current scenario, most westerners can get away with being not as good as Koreans but make more money per year. On May 26 2011 04:55 PHC wrote: You mean, more prize money than code A? You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig. Notice how you deliberately left out the Code S prizepool to prove a point. Codes S prizepool divided by the amount of days spent playing is <<<< playing western tourneys doing that time divided by the amount of days playing in tourneys. Also you only get the Code S prize pool if you do really well, you have to go through up/down, then play through final brackets, just to have a shot at getting the prize pool of 45k, So, assuming you're really good you go through up down matches fairly easy, Okay cool, now you're one of the top 32. Now assuming everyone has the same chances, 1/32 x prizepool ~ average winnings. Now divide that by the amount of days you play. Yeah, not a lot of money, you're better off doing this : You could stay in whatever Western country you're from, and play like 20 different tournaments/showmatch/coach/stream and make more money with less variance/risk. | ||
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blackone
Germany1314 Posts
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Virid
United States130 Posts
On May 26 2011 05:00 wei2coolman wrote: Incorrect, the "pro" in progamer signifies getting paid. The whole point of being a "pro" gamer is to get paid for playing, not actually to get better. Usually being the best correlates with getting paid more, however in the current scenario, most westerners can get away with being not as good as Koreans but make more money per year. This is totally irrelevant and disrespectful. You can whine about player personality all day, but it has next to nothing to do with what I actually said. On May 26 2011 05:01 blackone wrote: The GSL does that. The Super Tournament has a break for MLG Columbus. Evidentally, there were still some hurdles with communication that prevented this from working out as planned. | ||
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jyLee
United States350 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On May 26 2011 05:02 Virid wrote: This is totally irrelevant and disrespectful. You can whine about player personality all day, but it has next to nothing to do with what I actually said. How is this disrespectful? I only pointed out your definition of what a progamer is incorrect, and that choosing to go to "tourny x or tourny y" is a big deal! Obviously most gamers are going to choose one w/ the least amount of risk multiplied by payout. | ||
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mlee
United States116 Posts
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bioniK
United States65 Posts
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On May 26 2011 04:52 wei2coolman wrote: Foreigners deserve a equal deal. Its pretty obvious: Getting seeded for MLG (without having to qualify/ prove themselves in the mlg circuit) >>> 1 person getting code S (have to do up/down matches, and then stay in code S for a while longer just to have a chance of winning big money, all while missing a shit ton of tourneys) and 4 for code A (month long tourney to win like 1 dollar) You treat foreigners as if they're dogs compared to koreans, while might I remind you, Jinro/Idra/Huk all have had decent success in Korea, which is pretty freaking good considering the percentage of foreigners going to Korea. So far foreigner percentage for (foreigners doing decent in korea/ foreigners who went to korea to compete), is > than (koreans doing decent in korea/ koreans who try to compete). An equal deal? let the foreigners go through the brutal qualifiers of the code A instead of giving them free spots before we start talking about equal deal here shall we. Remember, this is the same qualifier that blocks quite a bit of ppl that know are good and still getting kicked out. I am sure they already appreciate it foreigners don't need to go through that. Something i have been wondering about when i see these threads. What exactly is your sponsor supposed to do? I thought you had a sponsor exactly to go over this kind of money trouble. They sponsor you and get you there, you play your ass off, they get more popular if you do good. I can be completely wrong since i don't know anything about this but i always thought that was the whole goal of a sponsor, to do the money part. | ||
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PHC
United States472 Posts
On May 26 2011 04:52 wei2coolman wrote: Foreigners deserve a equal deal. Its pretty obvious: Getting seeded for MLG (without having to qualify/ prove themselves in the mlg circuit) >>> 1 person getting code S (have to do up/down matches, and then stay in code S for a while longer just to have a chance of winning big money, all while missing a shit ton of tourneys) and 4 for code A (month long tourney to win like 1 dollar) You treat foreigners as if they're dogs compared to koreans, while might I remind you, Jinro/Idra/Huk all have had decent success in Korea, which is pretty freaking good considering the percentage of foreigners going to Korea. So far foreigner percentage for (foreigners doing decent in korea/ foreigners who went to korea to compete), is > than (koreans doing decent in korea/ koreans who try to compete). How is getting seeded to MLG much greater than 1 person getting code S? Think of all the struggling Korean Progamers that work night and day trying to even obtain code A? I'm sick and tired of these excuses fans are giving the foreign pro gamers for not trying to compete at the top. Ever since the SotG episode where they complained about how it's not fair for MLG players things have gone to shit. If that's how they feel, then that's fine... but to hear these brainwashed fans that are completely delegitimizing the opportunity foreign pro gamers get to have is fucking absurd. If this kind of attitude continues on from the community, it will be BW dominance all over again! They're not willing to put in a month in to compete at the highest level because you can make more money pwning easier opponents locally. Ok great, with this kind of mentality, let's see in 7 years when the only time you will see a foreigner play Koreans - and soon to be Chinese progamers - are when they are getting raped during WCG. And then wondering why they didn't practice harder and take advantage of opportunities like, I don't know... experiencing KOREA to train and compete for one month. Fucking spoiled foreigner community making excuses for not wanting to compete in Korea. Maybe the attitude's a good thing. It will weed out the semi-pros and real pros. The MLG players that complain and the Naniniwas who embrace competition 100% without talk of being fair or not. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
Evidentally, there were still some hurdles with communication that prevented this from working out as planned. So what if it's not perfect on the first go round, at the GSL and MLG are putting the effort out there to actually be something of a partnership. If a Westerner actually has a strong chance to win code S then there is plenty of incentive to go there. What is not being said in favor of excuses is that the GSL is throwing a ton of money up for grabs and the biggest problem with it is simply how massively competitive it is. People don't want to go to Korea because it will cost a ton of money and they will likely not win anything or enough to cover the expenses. This isn't even a problem as a spectator. This thread is borderline offensive mainly because of the title, asking for more communication is one thing, but don't put that under a sensationalist title about what Korea needs to do. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On May 26 2011 05:32 PHC wrote: How is getting seeded to MLG much greater than 1 person getting code S? Think of all the struggling Korean Progamers that work night and day trying to even obtain code A? I'm sick and tired of these excuses fans are giving the foreign pro gamers for not trying to compete at the top. Ever since the SotG episode where they complained about how it's not fair for MLG players things have gone to shit. If that's how they feel, then that's fine... but to hear these brainwashed fans that are completely delegitimizing the opportunity foreign pro gamers get to have is fucking absurd. If this kind of attitude continues on from the community, it will be BW dominance all over again! They're not willing to put in a month in to compete at the highest level because you can make more money pwning easier opponents locally. Ok great, with this kind of mentality, let's see in 7 years when the only time you will see a foreigner play Koreans - and soon to be Chinese progamers - are when they are getting raped during WCG. And then wondering why they didn't practice harder and take advantage of opportunities like, I don't know... experiencing KOREA to train and compete for one month. Fucking spoiled foreigner community making excuses for not wanting to compete in Korea. Maybe the attitude's a good thing. It will weed out the semi-pros and real pros. The MLG players that complain and the Naniniwas who embrace competition 100% without talk of being fair or not. Exactly, this seems to be really setting the stage for Korean dominance all over again, and meanwhile people are going to blame Korea for not making it easier to get there! Seriously, break down the article and look at what it implies: Living conditions: Is there something stopping western teams from buying a house or renting an apartment in Korea? Or is Korea responsible for providing housing that is up to western standards? Perhaps Korea should change all of it's cultural food as well to make the more comfortable? Practice conditions: I guess it's also up to Korea to provide practice partners? Perhaps all Koreans should learn fluent english to facilitate this? Perhaps all Korean pros should just be required to move to the US? Opportunity cost: Basically GSL should pay the losers more, right? Maybe Korea should pay for all the costs so that it is basically risk free to westerners to get their assess handed to them? Obligations: Probably the only valid concern in the article, and one that MLG and GSL are already working on. Conclusion: Hardly even makes sense. Basically blames the whole thing on communication which leaves me wondering why housing conditions, practice conditions, oppurtunity cost, and most of all what Korea needs to do was even brought up. This must be a conclusion to a different article. | ||
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