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Problem is people don't care enough to try and compete and be the best, people can play wherever they want but its clear that the people who are the best, or people that want to be the best are training and giving it their all in Korea. Thats the reason why people should want to go to Korea, because its an atmosphere where people want to prove their the best. If you don't have the drive to do that, then imo you just don't care enough.
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On May 26 2011 07:37 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 07:32 wei2coolman wrote:On May 26 2011 05:43 PHC wrote:On May 26 2011 05:00 wei2coolman wrote:On May 26 2011 04:58 Virid wrote:
Pro players should only have one worry - getting better at the game. Going to tourny X or tourny Y should never be a question, any pro player should be able to do both without any significant logistical hurdles. Why is every tournament stepping on every other tournament's toes? I can understand online tournaments overlapping some, the time investment is so miniscule that you could play five a day. But MLG and GSL are the two BIGGEST Sc2 tournaments in their region, and they are running into each other?
Incorrect, the "pro" in progamer signifies getting paid. The whole point of being a "pro" gamer is to get paid for playing, not actually to get better. Usually being the best correlates with getting paid more, however in the current scenario, most westerners can get away with being not as good as Koreans but make more money per year. On May 26 2011 04:55 PHC wrote:On May 26 2011 04:34 StarBrift wrote:On May 26 2011 04:31 vnlegend wrote:
Eh? Another post about how Korea should cater to the rest of the world? What are they, the Starcraft 2 Welfare program??
What exactly have the Western tournaments given to Korean players?? Seeds into the championship bracket of a 3 day long event with more prize money than anything in korea except for code S. You mean, more prize money than code A? You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig. Notice how you deliberately left out the Code S prizepool to prove a point. Codes S prizepool divided by the amount of days spent playing is <<<< playing western tourneys doing that time divided by the amount of days playing in tourneys. Also you only get the Code S prize pool if you do really well, you have to go through up/down, then play through final brackets, just to have a shot at getting the prize pool of 45k, So, assuming you're really good you go through up down matches fairly easy, Okay cool, now you're one of the top 32. Now assuming everyone has the same chances, 1/32 x prizepool ~ average winnings. Now divide that by the amount of days you play. Yeah, not a lot of money, you're better off doing this : You could stay in whatever Western country you're from, and play like 20 different tournaments/showmatch/coach/stream and make more money with less variance/risk. Ok, so you're defending the foreign pro gamers for not wanting to compete at the highest level because it's more lucrative to compete at home. How honorable of you. And you expect us as fans to respect their decision? Maybe. Do you expect us as fans to respect their skills as SC2 Progamers knowing that decision? HELL NO. I'm not defending them, I'm merely pointing out the truth. Lets put it this way, would you rather do 1 days worth of work for 100 dollars? or 30days of work for 300 Simple maths. And if everyone read my earlier post, I put a pretty good system of how sc2 can be integrated world wide. ...What are you even talking about? 30 days of work for 300 or 1 day of work for 100? Why are you just pulling random numbers out of no where? The only people who would get 300 dollars for 30 days of work would be people who got to like Ro8 in Code A, which would mean they played 2 best of threes, which doesn't take 30 days.
First of all, its a figure of speech, just a generality
2ndly: Why is it everyone keeps forgetting how long people have to stay in Korea to compete in GSL??? MLG event take 3 days, a single GSL event takes an entire month. The payout per day is much much higher for MLG. GSL's prize pool has to be greatly increased for foreigners to be interested, maybe if you made the prizepool 3 to 4 times greater than its current amount, it will be more than justified for foreigners to move to Korea to compete for that kind of prize pool. inb4 foreigners are "self entitled", the living costs of Korea is different than that of the rest of the world, so yes, Westerner are required to make more money to continue progaming.
3rdly you guys are all like "but, they should play there to be the best, not to win money" blah blah blah. Must I remind you about all the BW pros, that are still BW pros??? They're still in BW because there's still a shit ton of money to be made, they make anywhere from 80k-200k a year, which is much better than SC2. That's the exact same reason most westerner don't find that going to Korea to compete in the GSL is worth it.
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On May 26 2011 07:40 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 07:35 wei2coolman wrote:On May 26 2011 06:37 infinity2k9 wrote:On May 26 2011 00:21 AlBundy wrote:
Dude, this is not Halo3 or Call of Duty. Competitive starcraft is unlike any other sports or games. This is the most competitive scene EVER. BW or Sc2, it doesn't matter, it's all about DEDICATION. You lack dedication? You don't want to train for more than 10 hours a day? You don't want to be away from your family? Then don't even bother entering the competitive arena. Don't expect to be the best AND have a normal life.
Really, it's simple. It's a matter of "Do I want to compete against the best players and do I want to become the best player?"
As a spectator, I want to see the most skilled players compete against each other. I don't care about players making easy money by defeating bronze players in shitty tournaments.
Look at super tournament, in order to get to the finals you only need to play 6 rounds, plus you have time to actually practice and seriously prepare for your next opponent.
Now look at MLG, where naniwa went 23-2 by 4-gating everyone. Now THAT'S a healthy environment for the development of the competition, isn't it? You can't call that a proper tournament. Seriously, this is all that needs to be said. Fuck the ones who call dedication 'slave labour'. If you don't want to put in the effort don't even bother, you're going to fall behind anyway. The attitude of a lot of people in the foreigner scene lately is basically pathetic. Obviously someone hasn't kept up w/ the history of KeSpa, I don't want SC2 to end up like SC:BW in terms of how its run. You are trying to pick a fight with infinity2k9. This guy has followed the BW scene for a lot longer than you. All jokes aside, SC2 will never end up like BW in how its 'run.' I don't think you realize how silly you just made yourself look.
Heh, I'll take it back (i'm a couple k posts behind him to rag on him), but people need to understand there's a difference between personal dedication and training vs corporate controlled slave labor.
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Post count has little to do with it. The guy is known to many of us who follow both games.
That's your opinion and your entitled to it; however, I'd like to refute your last statement some more.
Specifically the word difference. To me, it feels like you are throwing words around because players like Stork, Flash and Jaedong are driven without the monetary gains. That is a bonus to their play. It will drive them more, but to think that these guys don't try to be the best because they want to be is flat out wrong.
This difference you speak of doesn't come off as one. They are two separate ideas. If you think these players are in it just for the money then you haven't been following them long enough. To summarize, certain players are dedicated regardless of these ideas you have about slave labor.
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On May 26 2011 07:47 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 07:37 Heavenly wrote:On May 26 2011 07:32 wei2coolman wrote:On May 26 2011 05:43 PHC wrote:On May 26 2011 05:00 wei2coolman wrote:On May 26 2011 04:58 Virid wrote:
Pro players should only have one worry - getting better at the game. Going to tourny X or tourny Y should never be a question, any pro player should be able to do both without any significant logistical hurdles. Why is every tournament stepping on every other tournament's toes? I can understand online tournaments overlapping some, the time investment is so miniscule that you could play five a day. But MLG and GSL are the two BIGGEST Sc2 tournaments in their region, and they are running into each other?
Incorrect, the "pro" in progamer signifies getting paid. The whole point of being a "pro" gamer is to get paid for playing, not actually to get better. Usually being the best correlates with getting paid more, however in the current scenario, most westerners can get away with being not as good as Koreans but make more money per year. On May 26 2011 04:55 PHC wrote:On May 26 2011 04:34 StarBrift wrote:On May 26 2011 04:31 vnlegend wrote:
Eh? Another post about how Korea should cater to the rest of the world? What are they, the Starcraft 2 Welfare program??
What exactly have the Western tournaments given to Korean players?? Seeds into the championship bracket of a 3 day long event with more prize money than anything in korea except for code S. You mean, more prize money than code A? You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig. Notice how you deliberately left out the Code S prizepool to prove a point. Codes S prizepool divided by the amount of days spent playing is <<<< playing western tourneys doing that time divided by the amount of days playing in tourneys. Also you only get the Code S prize pool if you do really well, you have to go through up/down, then play through final brackets, just to have a shot at getting the prize pool of 45k, So, assuming you're really good you go through up down matches fairly easy, Okay cool, now you're one of the top 32. Now assuming everyone has the same chances, 1/32 x prizepool ~ average winnings. Now divide that by the amount of days you play. Yeah, not a lot of money, you're better off doing this : You could stay in whatever Western country you're from, and play like 20 different tournaments/showmatch/coach/stream and make more money with less variance/risk. Ok, so you're defending the foreign pro gamers for not wanting to compete at the highest level because it's more lucrative to compete at home. How honorable of you. And you expect us as fans to respect their decision? Maybe. Do you expect us as fans to respect their skills as SC2 Progamers knowing that decision? HELL NO. I'm not defending them, I'm merely pointing out the truth. Lets put it this way, would you rather do 1 days worth of work for 100 dollars? or 30days of work for 300 Simple maths. And if everyone read my earlier post, I put a pretty good system of how sc2 can be integrated world wide. ...What are you even talking about? 30 days of work for 300 or 1 day of work for 100? Why are you just pulling random numbers out of no where? The only people who would get 300 dollars for 30 days of work would be people who got to like Ro8 in Code A, which would mean they played 2 best of threes, which doesn't take 30 days. First of all, its a figure of speech, just a generality 2ndly: Why is it everyone keeps forgetting how long people have to stay in Korea to compete in GSL??? MLG event take 3 days, a single GSL event takes an entire month. The payout per day is much much higher for MLG. GSL's prize pool has to be greatly increased for foreigners to be interested, maybe if you made the prizepool 3 to 4 times greater than its current amount, it will be more than justified for foreigners to move to Korea to compete for that kind of prize pool. inb4 foreigners are "self entitled", the living costs of Korea is different than that of the rest of the world, so yes, Westerner are required to make more money to continue progaming. 3rdly you guys are all like "but, they should play there to be the best, not to win money" blah blah blah. Must I remind you about all the BW pros, that are still BW pros??? They're still in BW because there's still a shit ton of money to be made, they make anywhere from 80k-200k a year, which is much better than SC2. That's the exact same reason most westerner don't find that going to Korea to compete in the GSL is worth it.
GomTV provides the foreigner house and accommodations for the players. I'm not sure if they actually fly them in but besides that almost everything else is taken care of. If you made the prize pool 3 to 4 times greater than its current amount first place would be worth $100,000. Huk and Jinro aren't doing amazingly in the GSL but they are doing perfectly fine in the OGS house and the foreigner house would probably provide equal or better living conditions. Maybe the Ro32 for Code S isn't that amazing but you still get a couple thousand dollars for that month even if you don't win, you get to experience a new country, and you are playing against the best players in the world which will improve your game for better showings when you return to the foreigner scene.
This is completely a sense of self-entitlement that Korea should cater to foreigners. If you aren't good enough then simply don't go. If you get to round of 16 that is a good amount of money for one month of play, whereas you aren't guaranteed at all to win MLG. And if they are somehow good enough to win GSL they get $25,000. If the foreigners are incapable of even getting to the round of 16 then they don't deserve to be there and taking a Code S spot from someone else who could have it like MMA or Ryung.
GSL is 100% a KOREAN lan. They have created a foreigner house and enabled foreigners to get directly seeded into the biggest tournament for SC2 in the world with the largest consistent prize pool for the winners. Korea has NO obligation to the foreigner world to let people play in their league but in an attempt to unite the esports scene they are extended the opportunity. Those who complain about Koreans going to MLG are also silly because they are competing for some money and the possibility to get Code S in their own home country's major tournament, which all of them (besides Moon) deserve to be in anyway. If the foreigners aren't good enough to beat these people who aren't even the top players in Korea then that is also 100% their fault, the money is rightfully the Koreans', and the foreigners don't deserve a Code S invite anyway.
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On May 25 2011 22:31 MetalSlug wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 22:03 fams wrote:On May 25 2011 21:58 MetalSlug wrote:
i disagree with almost everything in this article but i applaud you for the effort you put in it. Care to say why you disagree? You overrestimate the success of Starcraft II in the West und underrestimate the Force of Broodwar in Korea. Just because there are a few shiny SCII Tournaments in the West doesnt mean E-Sports is widely accepted and ppl suddenly pick Progamer as a career path. U really think the US goverment will accept e-sports and build an own department for it any time soon ? Basicly your are basing your post on false assumptions imho. Warcraft III was really popular in Europe for an ass long time with good payed tournaments and a healthy scene, now see where that went.
The US government doesn't set up departments for any of our sports, so that's a somewhat irrelevant point. Warcraft 3 paved the way for Starcraft 2, so I wouldn't call it a bust at all, just the first round of esports outside Korea.
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i just want to add my 2c though it may not be worth much:
i'm pretty sure GSL wants to do the best they can for the foreigners, they're inviting and have invited foreign players, they're working with MLG, provide housing, etc.
i think everyone is forgetting that starcraft, or esport, is not a multi-hundred million dollar market like real sports, maybe for bw, but not for sc2.
they're doing what they can with little they have, to be honest, players dont come first, the staff, infrastructure must be there for the players to compete in.
until the market grows, there little room for luxuries like paid tickets with hotel room for a month - from sponsor or tournament organizer or from players themselves.
the cost of living is already set(all variables, food/housing/family/travel/etc), its the industry that needs to play catch up to meet those already set numbers.
so for now, only those who are willing to sacrifice a lot to compete at the highest level will travel to korea. those who want to be treated specially can wait.
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On May 26 2011 07:47 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 07:37 Heavenly wrote:On May 26 2011 07:32 wei2coolman wrote:On May 26 2011 05:43 PHC wrote:On May 26 2011 05:00 wei2coolman wrote:On May 26 2011 04:58 Virid wrote:
Pro players should only have one worry - getting better at the game. Going to tourny X or tourny Y should never be a question, any pro player should be able to do both without any significant logistical hurdles. Why is every tournament stepping on every other tournament's toes? I can understand online tournaments overlapping some, the time investment is so miniscule that you could play five a day. But MLG and GSL are the two BIGGEST Sc2 tournaments in their region, and they are running into each other?
Incorrect, the "pro" in progamer signifies getting paid. The whole point of being a "pro" gamer is to get paid for playing, not actually to get better. Usually being the best correlates with getting paid more, however in the current scenario, most westerners can get away with being not as good as Koreans but make more money per year. On May 26 2011 04:55 PHC wrote:On May 26 2011 04:34 StarBrift wrote:On May 26 2011 04:31 vnlegend wrote:
Eh? Another post about how Korea should cater to the rest of the world? What are they, the Starcraft 2 Welfare program??
What exactly have the Western tournaments given to Korean players?? Seeds into the championship bracket of a 3 day long event with more prize money than anything in korea except for code S. You mean, more prize money than code A? You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig. Notice how you deliberately left out the Code S prizepool to prove a point. Codes S prizepool divided by the amount of days spent playing is <<<< playing western tourneys doing that time divided by the amount of days playing in tourneys. Also you only get the Code S prize pool if you do really well, you have to go through up/down, then play through final brackets, just to have a shot at getting the prize pool of 45k, So, assuming you're really good you go through up down matches fairly easy, Okay cool, now you're one of the top 32. Now assuming everyone has the same chances, 1/32 x prizepool ~ average winnings. Now divide that by the amount of days you play. Yeah, not a lot of money, you're better off doing this : You could stay in whatever Western country you're from, and play like 20 different tournaments/showmatch/coach/stream and make more money with less variance/risk. Ok, so you're defending the foreign pro gamers for not wanting to compete at the highest level because it's more lucrative to compete at home. How honorable of you. And you expect us as fans to respect their decision? Maybe. Do you expect us as fans to respect their skills as SC2 Progamers knowing that decision? HELL NO. I'm not defending them, I'm merely pointing out the truth. Lets put it this way, would you rather do 1 days worth of work for 100 dollars? or 30days of work for 300 Simple maths. And if everyone read my earlier post, I put a pretty good system of how sc2 can be integrated world wide. ...What are you even talking about? 30 days of work for 300 or 1 day of work for 100? Why are you just pulling random numbers out of no where? The only people who would get 300 dollars for 30 days of work would be people who got to like Ro8 in Code A, which would mean they played 2 best of threes, which doesn't take 30 days. First of all, its a figure of speech, just a generality 2ndly: Why is it everyone keeps forgetting how long people have to stay in Korea to compete in GSL??? MLG event take 3 days, a single GSL event takes an entire month. The payout per day is much much higher for MLG. GSL's prize pool has to be greatly increased for foreigners to be interested, maybe if you made the prizepool 3 to 4 times greater than its current amount, it will be more than justified for foreigners to move to Korea to compete for that kind of prize pool. inb4 foreigners are "self entitled", the living costs of Korea is different than that of the rest of the world, so yes, Westerner are required to make more money to continue progaming. 3rdly you guys are all like "but, they should play there to be the best, not to win money" blah blah blah. Must I remind you about all the BW pros, that are still BW pros??? They're still in BW because there's still a shit ton of money to be made, they make anywhere from 80k-200k a year, which is much better than SC2. That's the exact same reason most westerner don't find that going to Korea to compete in the GSL is worth it.
If your trying to make money by playing SC2, I'd say your in the wrong profession. The first generation of big name SCBW progamers didn't give a shit about money, you think BoxeR played Starcraft to get rich? Fuck no, game was new as hell back when he started playing, and the idea of being paid to play televised games of Starcraft was a joke, but that didn't stop him from practicing 12+ hours a day. BW progamers are still doing what they love, their not jumping over to SC2 yet because they still want to compete on the biggest e-sports stage in the world.
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On May 26 2011 08:06 jinorazi wrote:
i just want to add my 2c though it may not be worth much:
i'm pretty GSL wants to do the best they can for the foreigners, they're inviting and have invited foreign players, they're working with MLG, provide housing, etc.
i think everyone is forgetting that starcraft, or esport, is not a multi-hundred million dollar market like real sports, maybe for bw, but not for sc2.
they're doing what they can with little they have, to be honest, players dont come first, the staff, infrastructure must be there for the players to compete in.
until the market grows, there little room for luxuries like paid tickets with hotel room for a month - from sponsor or tournament organizer or from players themselves.
the cost of living is already set(all variables, food/housing/family/travel/etc), its the industry that needs to play catch up to meet those already set numbers.
so for now, only those who are willing to sacrifice a lot to compete at the highest level will travel to korea. those who want to be treated specially can wait.
Agreed, completely. There needs to be a much bigger industry and infrastructure to justify foreigners to go to Korea.
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On May 26 2011 08:10 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 08:06 jinorazi wrote:
i just want to add my 2c though it may not be worth much:
i'm pretty GSL wants to do the best they can for the foreigners, they're inviting and have invited foreign players, they're working with MLG, provide housing, etc.
i think everyone is forgetting that starcraft, or esport, is not a multi-hundred million dollar market like real sports, maybe for bw, but not for sc2.
they're doing what they can with little they have, to be honest, players dont come first, the staff, infrastructure must be there for the players to compete in.
until the market grows, there little room for luxuries like paid tickets with hotel room for a month - from sponsor or tournament organizer or from players themselves.
the cost of living is already set(all variables, food/housing/family/travel/etc), its the industry that needs to play catch up to meet those already set numbers.
so for now, only those who are willing to sacrifice a lot to compete at the highest level will travel to korea. those who want to be treated specially can wait. Agreed, completely. There needs to be a much bigger industry and infrastructure to justify foreigners to go to Korea.
Way to completely miss his point.
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I see more players going to Korea in the future after they have dominated EU/NA scenes. It's just all very new in the west and people are wanting to explore the opportunities at or around home more at this point. The player exchanges will help create opportunities for all players on a global scale to play here, asia, and europe. Just gotta give it time.
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On May 26 2011 08:15 nokz88 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 08:10 wei2coolman wrote:On May 26 2011 08:06 jinorazi wrote:
i just want to add my 2c though it may not be worth much:
i'm pretty GSL wants to do the best they can for the foreigners, they're inviting and have invited foreign players, they're working with MLG, provide housing, etc.
i think everyone is forgetting that starcraft, or esport, is not a multi-hundred million dollar market like real sports, maybe for bw, but not for sc2.
they're doing what they can with little they have, to be honest, players dont come first, the staff, infrastructure must be there for the players to compete in.
until the market grows, there little room for luxuries like paid tickets with hotel room for a month - from sponsor or tournament organizer or from players themselves.
the cost of living is already set(all variables, food/housing/family/travel/etc), its the industry that needs to play catch up to meet those already set numbers.
so for now, only those who are willing to sacrifice a lot to compete at the highest level will travel to korea. those who want to be treated specially can wait. Agreed, completely. There needs to be a much bigger industry and infrastructure to justify foreigners to go to Korea. Way to completely miss his point.
i think i misread so i just put in spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +
i assume you were commenting on my part. maybe you can point me to the point of the article because the article seemed straight forward "what needs to be done for all esports around the world to unite". communication, understanding, being on the same page, are all obvious things and i'm 99% sure they will come in time. however, at the moment, the industry is still very young and i'm just pointing out maybe people are wanting too much from it.
i personally would love to see football(association) style organization where different leagues play together in larger league/tournament.
MLG - GSL is a start.
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On May 26 2011 08:10 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 08:06 jinorazi wrote:
i just want to add my 2c though it may not be worth much:
i'm pretty GSL wants to do the best they can for the foreigners, they're inviting and have invited foreign players, they're working with MLG, provide housing, etc.
i think everyone is forgetting that starcraft, or esport, is not a multi-hundred million dollar market like real sports, maybe for bw, but not for sc2.
they're doing what they can with little they have, to be honest, players dont come first, the staff, infrastructure must be there for the players to compete in.
until the market grows, there little room for luxuries like paid tickets with hotel room for a month - from sponsor or tournament organizer or from players themselves.
the cost of living is already set(all variables, food/housing/family/travel/etc), its the industry that needs to play catch up to meet those already set numbers.
so for now, only those who are willing to sacrifice a lot to compete at the highest level will travel to korea. those who want to be treated specially can wait. Agreed, completely. There needs to be a much bigger industry and infrastructure to justify foreigners to go to Korea.
Way to miss the point or just failing in reading comprehension.
He said they are already doing everything they can since its still a small industry.
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IMO the only way we'll ever see foreigners going to Korea en masse to compete in Korean LANs is if GOM creates a second tournament that takes place over a weekend similar to MLG/Dreamhack. The points the article raises are valid, but honestly there's nothing that can be done about it. Yes Korea is crowded. Yes flying to Korea is expensive. Yes Koreans speak Korean. None of these facts are going to change. Honestly, there isn't anything wrong with having separate regional scenes. In the internet era it's easy to watch your favorite players regardless of where they are playing. Leaving each region to their own devices and coming together only infrequently in a clash of each country's best...sounds like real sports doesn't it?
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On May 26 2011 07:47 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 07:37 Heavenly wrote:On May 26 2011 07:32 wei2coolman wrote:On May 26 2011 05:43 PHC wrote:On May 26 2011 05:00 wei2coolman wrote:On May 26 2011 04:58 Virid wrote:
Pro players should only have one worry - getting better at the game. Going to tourny X or tourny Y should never be a question, any pro player should be able to do both without any significant logistical hurdles. Why is every tournament stepping on every other tournament's toes? I can understand online tournaments overlapping some, the time investment is so miniscule that you could play five a day. But MLG and GSL are the two BIGGEST Sc2 tournaments in their region, and they are running into each other?
Incorrect, the "pro" in progamer signifies getting paid. The whole point of being a "pro" gamer is to get paid for playing, not actually to get better. Usually being the best correlates with getting paid more, however in the current scenario, most westerners can get away with being not as good as Koreans but make more money per year. On May 26 2011 04:55 PHC wrote:On May 26 2011 04:34 StarBrift wrote:On May 26 2011 04:31 vnlegend wrote:
Eh? Another post about how Korea should cater to the rest of the world? What are they, the Starcraft 2 Welfare program??
What exactly have the Western tournaments given to Korean players?? Seeds into the championship bracket of a 3 day long event with more prize money than anything in korea except for code S. You mean, more prize money than code A? You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig. Notice how you deliberately left out the Code S prizepool to prove a point. Codes S prizepool divided by the amount of days spent playing is <<<< playing western tourneys doing that time divided by the amount of days playing in tourneys. Also you only get the Code S prize pool if you do really well, you have to go through up/down, then play through final brackets, just to have a shot at getting the prize pool of 45k, So, assuming you're really good you go through up down matches fairly easy, Okay cool, now you're one of the top 32. Now assuming everyone has the same chances, 1/32 x prizepool ~ average winnings. Now divide that by the amount of days you play. Yeah, not a lot of money, you're better off doing this : You could stay in whatever Western country you're from, and play like 20 different tournaments/showmatch/coach/stream and make more money with less variance/risk. Ok, so you're defending the foreign pro gamers for not wanting to compete at the highest level because it's more lucrative to compete at home. How honorable of you. And you expect us as fans to respect their decision? Maybe. Do you expect us as fans to respect their skills as SC2 Progamers knowing that decision? HELL NO. I'm not defending them, I'm merely pointing out the truth. Lets put it this way, would you rather do 1 days worth of work for 100 dollars? or 30days of work for 300 Simple maths. And if everyone read my earlier post, I put a pretty good system of how sc2 can be integrated world wide. ...What are you even talking about? 30 days of work for 300 or 1 day of work for 100? Why are you just pulling random numbers out of no where? The only people who would get 300 dollars for 30 days of work would be people who got to like Ro8 in Code A, which would mean they played 2 best of threes, which doesn't take 30 days. First of all, its a figure of speech, just a generality 2ndly: Why is it everyone keeps forgetting how long people have to stay in Korea to compete in GSL??? MLG event take 3 days, a single GSL event takes an entire month. The payout per day is much much higher for MLG. GSL's prize pool has to be greatly increased for foreigners to be interested, maybe if you made the prizepool 3 to 4 times greater than its current amount, it will be more than justified for foreigners to move to Korea to compete for that kind of prize pool. inb4 foreigners are "self entitled", the living costs of Korea is different than that of the rest of the world, so yes, Westerner are required to make more money to continue progaming. 3rdly you guys are all like "but, they should play there to be the best, not to win money" blah blah blah. Must I remind you about all the BW pros, that are still BW pros??? They're still in BW because there's still a shit ton of money to be made, they make anywhere from 80k-200k a year, which is much better than SC2. That's the exact same reason most westerner don't find that going to Korea to compete in the GSL is worth it.
I hate that chart that someone made that compared time spent made to reward; it's very misleading. If you take a bigger look at it, like a year outlook, all the MLGs combined wouldn't give you a person over 100k prize money. Ontop of that, when you live in Korea, your living expenses are provided by GOM and you are a bus/drive away to the tournament. Whereas in MLG, if you are European, you have to fly back and forth between every tournament. Only like the top 2 places would exceed the cost of the trip. I guess playing online is the best scenario since there is no risk! Winning $100 dollar cups and show matches gives you the best risk/reward! Nothing great about winning those compared to winning something big that requires you to be dedicated and sacrifice.
What are the foreigners missing out on? hmmm NASL with favorable latency but as you can see, even some of the Koreans are able to handle some of the ping disadvantages. The IPL, which comes along less frequently than between seasons of GSL. Anything else major besides the small online cups?
Let's look at IdrA as an example, when he left Korea he supposedly has all the opportunities for other tournaments that require less "time" spent than GSL and wasn't neglected from other tournaments. Since he left Korea, he only has won $2500 from the IPL within the 4 months that he was gone. What tournaments did he miss out on from Korea while he was gone? 2 GSL seasons, 1 WC season, and 1 supertournament. What essentially are people going to be missing out on while in Korea, the online cups?
Ok, I guess you will be missing your family and friends but I think you family and friends will understand that being a progamer may require you to travel and maybe live in other countries to try to make some living. Don't think they want you to stay and making a living off of online cups.
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I think it is a bit too early to say the West is a bigger e-sports scene than Korea. There may be more tournaments and money NOW but could that simply be the result of a bubble? What happens when that pops?
When I think of Korean e-sports I think of one word: stability. The industry in Korea has gone on for over a decade now and grows not only with SC but in many other games. Boxer isn't known in Korea as only SlayerS_Boxer but as Lim Yo Hwan. E-sports isn't fringe there like in the US, it is a culturally accepted form of entertainment.
So then why does Korea need to pay attention to anything the West does?
I read your article and didn't see any convincing argument to back up your opening statement. Maybe change your title to "why Westerns don't play in Korea" since your entire piece is basically a bullet-point reasoning more players don't go over there.
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On May 26 2011 08:10 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 08:06 jinorazi wrote:
i just want to add my 2c though it may not be worth much:
i'm pretty GSL wants to do the best they can for the foreigners, they're inviting and have invited foreign players, they're working with MLG, provide housing, etc.
i think everyone is forgetting that starcraft, or esport, is not a multi-hundred million dollar market like real sports, maybe for bw, but not for sc2.
they're doing what they can with little they have, to be honest, players dont come first, the staff, infrastructure must be there for the players to compete in.
until the market grows, there little room for luxuries like paid tickets with hotel room for a month - from sponsor or tournament organizer or from players themselves.
the cost of living is already set(all variables, food/housing/family/travel/etc), its the industry that needs to play catch up to meet those already set numbers.
so for now, only those who are willing to sacrifice a lot to compete at the highest level will travel to korea. those who want to be treated specially can wait. Agreed, completely. There needs to be a much bigger industry and infrastructure to justify foreigners to go to Korea.
This guy is completely blinded by his own opinions that he fails to read the point or chooses to ignore them...
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meanwhile, dreamhack announces MORE korean invites, to make sure they have the best of the best, and aren't worried about "zomg koreans steal mah moneyz"
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Out of the few players that hardcore top foreigners who don't have any other in real life obligations that have the financial support to go to Korea which ones would be better off in Korea..? I just think if someone is making good money doing what they like right now why would they maybe risk that and go live in Korea 6 months or a year. I feel like people think just because someone has a team that will send them there they think the player should be happy making less money and living in a foreign environment struggling to catch up to code S koreans.
It is definitely something that many players would like to try to do (trying to do something and having to do it or else you are wasting your time and money are different things) but it is an extremely privileged opportunity and I don't think most players have the kind of money or complete lack of real life obligations to make it work. It is not just practice partners and a computers that make someone able to play at their best. Why do people think its not honorable to stay where you are while making more money doing it especially when it is a stupid idea for them to go...
These threads always make me think why do people think it should happen and who are these players with the money, lack of real life obligations, and are flat out skilled enough to do well and make it in Korea. I don't think Korea needs to pay any more attention to players that are not as good as the ones they have already. I think the GSL does enough and it is just a matter of someone who is sick good having things line up where they get an opportunity while being in a period of there life where they can really commit to going there.
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1019 Posts
The article that I read from the OP has a vibe like "Koreans are being too elitist and not accommodating enough for western players so Koreans need to put more effort in at trying to communicate with westerners and that Koreans need to be more willing to help western players be their practice partners". And then the title itself is "korea needs to start paying attention to the west", as if it's the koreans fault for the language and time barrier. Really? The language and culture barrier is very difficult for anyone to overcome but why should the koreans have to be so accommodating? It's nobody's fault that there is a language barrier and time zone difference. Since when did Koreans have to make everything so easy for foreigners? They have their own industry and they are developing it the way they want. Is something wrong with that? And it's not like koreans are trying to shut western players out or look down on them.
the complaining over this on TL seriously makes me think that foreigners are using the difficulty in playing in korea as an excuse for not being able to compete with them in the GSL. If people become progamers to become the best, and if they truly wanted to become the best, they would do anything in order to compete with the best and beat the best, whether the best is korean or foreigner. It's people like this who are going to be firebrands and lead the way for western esports to grow. But if everyone is going to sit and complain then that isn't going to happen.
Nobody said it was going to be easy. It seems like some forget that it's only been a year since SC2 came out. The fact that the esports industry has come this far in the west is very commendable. I guarentee you that korean esports was nowhere near what SC2 esports was in 1998. But this is only the beginning. There are going to be logistical issues, there are going to be time zone issues, and ironing out the problems is going to take time. It seems like westerners were eager to see SC2 to become like brood war in korea but when that didn't happen as fast as they wanted it to they just started to complain. The BW industry in korea didn't become what it is because koreans half-assed everything. It was probably as hard for them making brood war an industry as hard as it is for westerners today trying to make SC2 an industry. It's going to take time. Now I'm not going to judge anyone on how hard they work. I know I'm not perfect at it. But I'm going to say again that you need effort and you need time. so please be patient and stop making complainer threads, especially ones that suggest that the koreans are doing something wrong or are not doing enough. it just makes you guys look totally insecure about yourselves.
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