EPT
Ahh, it was quite subtle and I completely missed it.
Korea needs to start paying attention to the West - Page 11
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
Ahh, it was quite subtle and I completely missed it. | ||
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SourD
United States81 Posts
imagine if this goes on for few years, it will be like BW all over again...skill difference will only grow and koreans will dominate the scene once again. | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
On May 25 2011 22:10 Arceus wrote: All I see in this article is another complaint-fest. Gotta say it again that GOM is so kind, they did their best about it. They cover cost, change format, give undeserved invitations, provide housing etc Need else ? GOM sending MC/Nestea to foreigner house as practice partners ? and hell no Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea. On May 26 2011 13:01 SourD wrote: its more like foreigners need to grow some balls and try to compete with the best of the world(or so it is believed) imagine if this goes on for few years, it will be like BW all over again...skill difference will only grow and koreans will dominate the scene once again. K, its no longer Brood War where most players were fighting for scraps anyway, so the drive to be the best at all costs was a huge factor. Esports has grown now; this game is a living for these players. Try to compete with the best? Sure. Try to compete with the best at a huge compromise to your monetary gain? Hell no. At the end of the day these guys have money to make and bills to pay, all of which they do through starcraft. Even making Code S in Korea is a massive challenge considering how good the competition is. Being a Code A player is nt worth it at all from any perspective. Even if you make it to Code S, which is a pretty big if in the first place, your chances of making any decent money are still absolutely miniscule. And outside of GSL, there's almost nothing going on in Korea, which is a bit of a shame. So if you're a foreigner you're weighing the pros and cons of either living in a foreign country, playing in one tournament only and being almost guarenteed to make no decent money at all unless you place in the top 3 of Code S, which is already a huge task, OR stay with in your own home with your support network and play numerous online and offline events which offer way better money and easier competition. It's a pretty obvious choice. The skill difference will have nothing to do with foreigners going to Korea or not. There was a skill difference in ScBW because of KESPA and all of the infrastructure that shaped the BW scene in korea, leading to hundreds of gamers practicing for absurd hours while most foreign pros wouldn't even get half of that practice time in. If the foreign scene is going to be as competitive as the Korean one, it's going to be because foreigners show the same committment and practice time, and the growth of things like pro houses similar to those in Korea to facilitate mass practice. | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
On May 26 2011 13:06 TheSubtleArt wrote: Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea. Growing does not mean surpassing. | ||
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Nayl
Canada413 Posts
On May 26 2011 13:06 TheSubtleArt wrote: Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea. Please. There seems to be a trend in TL where they take "SC2 in Korea is not as big as expected" as SC2 has failed in Korea/West has bigger scene ect. SC2 is small in Korea RELATIVE to SC1 in Korea. GSTL May Finals got 760,000 view on Korean VODs, neverminding all the live audience. Take that in for a second ok? 760,000 views. Have you seen any non korean SC2 content that generates that kind of view? We're talking about the entire world here, outside of Korea. It might be hard to believe for you guys, but SC2 in Korea is at the very least, comparable in size to the rest of the world. | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
It might be hard to believe for you guys, but SC2 in Korea is AT THE VERY LEAST, comparable in size to the rest of the world. Except we're measuring the size in prize $$$ not viewer count. The only people who are directly impacted by viewer count are the hosts and anyone hold an ad slot. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
The article isn't even related to the title - it's just a bunch of whine about how hard it is to move to Korea (yathink?), then the offered solution is the comical "more communication!". | ||
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NHY
1013 Posts
On May 26 2011 10:27 fams wrote: Or maybe its simply my opinion, and this is a column not a paper that belongs in an academic review. Lighten up dude...this is simply the way I see things, based on the information I have gathered from personal experiences, professional gamers and managers. Not everyone agrees with me, thats great, I'm not asking people to. I had a 30 minute conversation with Spunky, the manager of oGs about this topic and he made incredibly valid points that went against what I said. All in all, I stand by what I wrote. People can agree, disagree, flame, or not even read it properly and comment all they want. There are plenty of solutions and perspectives to be heard when it comes to bridging the gaps between regions. I just spoke from my perspective - and a few other peoples - on some of the recent problems that have made headlines recently. Let me say it again. What you wrote in OP and what you are saying you wrote don't match. That is why I'm saying you need to work on communication skills. I'm not arguing the validity of your argument here. (I did that earlier) On May 26 2011 12:54 Serpico wrote: You could be more polite and make a better attempt to understand him yourself. I understood him the first time around, but yes I could be more polite. | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On May 26 2011 13:15 starcraft911 wrote: I agree that the cost of moving out of country are huge. Even if I won every GSL I'd still make less than I do now unless I could get some kind of sponsorship or my own line of keyboards or something which would never happen. Additionally, I like many things about the area I live in... I have my own boat that I can go out on the river and fish. I don't know much about korean fishing, but the stuff I do away from sc2 would be difficult for me to move so even an attempt to try and go pro isn't worth it for me and I think a lot of people are in similar situations. Except we're measuring the size in prize $$$ not viewer count. The only people who are directly impacted by viewer count are the hosts and anyone hold an ad slot. The original quote "Now with the Western Starcraft 2 scene surpassing that of even Korea, it is time for the Korean eSports professionals to start taking notes." does not explain what context it is in. Whether it is in prize money, viewership, skill, player count, or number of rainbow ponies. In fact, the SECOND quote, to whom Nayl responded to, refers to popularity. That's not prize money. That's viewership. And I would imagine viewer count is a more important number when considering sustainability and company sponsorships than event prize money. | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
In that context it did. He wasn't talking about it skill wise, or at least that's what I was assuming. On May 26 2011 13:14 Nayl wrote: Please. There seems to be a trend in TL where they take "SC2 in Korea is not as big as expected" as SC2 has failed in Korea/West has bigger scene ect. SC2 is small in Korea RELATIVE to SC1 in Korea. GSTL May Finals got 760,000 view on VODs, neverminding all the live audience. Take that in for a second ok? 760,000 views. Have you seen any non korean SC2 content that generates that kind of view? We're talking about the entire world here, outside of Korea. It might be hard to believe for you guys, but SC2 in Korea is at the very least, comparable in size to the rest of the world. Lol but you do realize that a large portion of those views were from people outside Korea? I know I watched those games lol. Sc2 is not as big as expected is true, but it's also true that the foreign scene has been much more active. Look at the huge number of tournaments, LANs, and online events we have going on. NASL, IPL, MLG (twice), Dreamhack, IEM, TSL, Black Dragon League, Copenhagen games, Assembly, etc, not to mention tons of weekly online tournaments, all in one year. By comparison Korea has GSL, GSTL, and GSL world tournament.....and that's it. Outside of GOMtv theres almost nothing going on. It's been a persistant complaint by Koreans and foreigners considering travelling to Korea that there is very little activity outside of the GSL. The foreign scene still has a long way to go in terms of skill, but you could certainly make the case that for support, activity, and fan base it has started to pull ahead. | ||
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Nayl
Canada413 Posts
On May 26 2011 13:15 starcraft911 wrote: I agree that the cost of moving out of country are huge. Even if I won every GSL I'd still make less than I do now unless I could get some kind of sponsorship or my own line of keyboards or something which would never happen. Additionally, I like many things about the area I live in... I have my own boat that I can go out on the river and fish. I don't know much about korean fishing, but the stuff I do away from sc2 would be difficult for me to move so even an attempt to try and go pro isn't worth it for me and I think a lot of people are in similar situations. Except we're measuring the size in prize $$$ not viewer count. The only people who are directly impacted by viewer count are the hosts and anyone hold an ad slot. I hate this attitude of "Oh I can make more money if I stay". realistically, who becomes Pro gamer to make lots of money? If that is your goal in becoming SC2 pro, then you should stop and go do something else more productive. It happens that in the world of progaming, money will naturally come if you are skilled. If you refuse a sure method of getting better (i.e. moving to Korea) just because it nets you little money in short term, then it will be hard for people in foreign scene to really succeed in SC2 in long term. If you really do love playing this game, why not give it all and try rather than try to make few quick buck that isn't going to sustainable anyways? | ||
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blah_blah
346 Posts
The GSL is literally the highest level of SC2 competition in the world. It has the best casters, the best games, is run the most professionally, and lots of people like me would rather stay up until 5AM (PST) to watch it rather than watch totalbiscuit commentate IPL or grubby/painuser lose two one-sided matches for the billionth time in a row in NASL. By virtue of this, it doesn't need to accomodate other tournaments at all. But yet they bend over backwards to invite foreigners, make minor adjustments to scheduling, hold worldwide tournaments where they pay for the foreigners to travel, and even seed foreigners directly into their main tournament based on their results against inferior competition, and you still get asinine articles like this shitting on Gom for not doing more. It's really unbelievable. The problem in a nutshell is that there is not all that much money in eSports and that it costs a lot of money to send players across the world and keep them there. That there is not necessarily a justification, based on skill, for sending those players across the world in the first place is an additional complication. That's just the nature of things, it's not anyone's fault, let alone Gom's. | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On May 26 2011 13:23 TheSubtleArt wrote: In that context it did. He wasn't talking about it skill wise, or at least that's what I was assuming. Lol but you do realize that a large portion of those views were from people outside Korea? I know I watched those games lol. Sc2 is not as big as expected is true, but it's also true that the foreign scene has been much more active. Look at the huge number of tournaments, LANs, and online events we have going on. NASL, IPL, MLG (twice), Dreamhack, IEM, TSL, Black Dragon League, Copenhagen games, Assembly, etc, not to mention tons of weekly online tournaments, all in one year. By comparison Korea has GSL, GSTL, and GSL world tournament.....and that's it. Outside of GOMtv theres almost nothing going on. It's been a persistant complaint by Koreans and foreigners considering travelling to Korea that there is very little activity outside of the GSL. Preface - If someone can help find numbers, that'll be great. I remember during the Boxer games. The international viewership was something in the 50,000s of people. The Korean viewership was well over 750,000. I'm going to look up the numbers right now, and update, but that is accurate to my memory. I updated the number. It was closer to 750,000. Now, Boxer might be able to carry those numbers, but I do not doubt that the average Korean player has a lot more Koreans invested in them than we foreigners do. | ||
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Taiyoken
Canada130 Posts
On May 26 2011 13:23 TheSubtleArt wrote: In that context it did. He wasn't talking about it skill wise, or at least that's what I was assuming. Lol but you do realize that a large portion of those views were from people outside Korea? I know I watched those games lol. Sc2 is not as big as expected is true, but it's also true that the foreign scene has been much more active. Look at the huge number of tournaments, LANs, and online events we have going on. NASL, IPL, MLG (twice), Dreamhack, IEM, TSL, Black Dragon League, Copenhagen games, Assembly, etc, not to mention tons of weekly online tournaments, all in one year. By comparison Korea has GSL, GSTL, and GSL world tournament.....and that's it. Outside of GOMtv theres almost nothing going on. It's been a persistant complaint by Koreans and foreigners considering travelling to Korea that there is very little activity outside of the GSL. The foreign scene still has a long way to go in terms of skill, but you could certainly make the case that for support, activity, and fan base it has started to pull ahead. He is talking about KOREAN VODS, not the English VODs casted by Wolf and Moletrap. | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
[QUOTE]On May 26 2011 13:08 Zeke50100 wrote: [QUOTE]On May 26 2011 13:06 TheSubtleArt wrote: [QUOTE]On May 25 2011 22:10 Arceus wrote: All I see in this article is another complaint-fest. Gotta say it again that GOM is so kind, they did their best about it. They cover cost, change format, give undeserved invitations, provide housing etc Need else ? GOM sending MC/Nestea to foreigner house as practice partners ? and [quote]Now with the Western Starcraft 2 scene surpassing that of even Korea[/quote] hell no[/QUOTE] Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea.[/QUOTE] Growing does not mean surpassing.[/QUOTE] In that context it did. He wasn't talking about it skill wise, or at least that's what I was assuming. Please note that more people buying the game outside of Korea does not mean the e-sports scene is necessarily growing in popularity >.< | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
I for one hope Korea becomes untouchable again like in BW to show the foreigner community that they can't get by on talent and less practice time. | ||
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Nayl
Canada413 Posts
On May 26 2011 13:23 TheSubtleArt wrote: In that context it did. He wasn't talking about it skill wise, or at least that's what I was assuming. Lol but you do realize that a large portion of those views were from people outside Korea? I know I watched those games lol. Sc2 is not as big as expected is true, but it's also true that the foreign scene has been much more active. Look at the huge number of tournaments, LANs, and online events we have going on. NASL, IPL, MLG (twice), Dreamhack, IEM, TSL, Black Dragon League, Copenhagen games, Assembly, etc, not to mention tons of weekly online tournaments, all in one year. By comparison Korea has GSL, GSTL, and GSL world tournament.....and that's it. Outside of GOMtv theres almost nothing going on. It's been a persistant complaint by Koreans and foreigners considering travelling to Korea that there is very little activity outside of the GSL. Lol you do realize the viewer count is from GOMTV.COM not GOMTV.NET? 760,000 view is purely from Korean Viewers. Gomtv.net's count is 720,000. Pure Korean numbers are still higher than views from entire world outside of Korea. Also BW technically only has 3 tournaments- OSL/MSL/Proleague (Oh and courage I guess). It isn't about the number of tournaments; it is about sustainability and quality, of which Western scene hasn't proved yet. WC3 was huge too when it first came out, now it has been abandoned at large. Also something to think about: Korea's SC2 scene is trying to move towards the Brood war model, which is corporations sponsoring each teams resulting in players recieving salaries instead of relying heavily on prize money the way they do in the foreigner scene. This in long term is going to be much more sustainable than prize money grabbing. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
There are good reasons for not moving to Korea and any discussion about "SC2 is bigger outside of Korea" is moot, because you can get results either way depending upon which criteria you proclaim to be valid / important. The fact remains that SC2 as an eSport HAS TO work outside Korea and total focus on that nation would be really bad. The point of a Sport is to be entertaining and you can be entertained by western pros in western tournaments, in fact I would argue that the "dramatic arc" for the western weekend LAN tournaments is much better than that of the Korean monthly ones. The demeaning comments directed at Xeris and fams are totally uncalled for IMO, they try to make a point and to start a discussion - which might enlighten us and improve the situation. | ||
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edwahn
New Zealand121 Posts
On that, I can't put it any more aptly than HolyArrow's description: it's baseless entitlement. For someone who claim to want to raise awareness of different perspectives, you seem closed-off to many valid points made in this discussion. You should really edit your column to say "I feel that people need to see where I am coming from [and if they disagree, too bad, they won't get as much spotlight as I do]" Also, I'm not sure how anyone is going to deduce that you don't place the blame entirely on GomTV considering you're saying a) the problem lies with Koreans ("korea needs to...") and b) the impetus lies with Koreans ("start paying attention to the west") | ||
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On May 26 2011 13:55 Rabiator wrote: IMO there is a lot of "Korea worshipping" here. There are good reasons for not moving to Korea and any discussion about "SC2 is bigger outside of Korea" is moot, because you can get results either way depending upon which criteria you proclaim to be valid / important. The fact remains that SC2 as an eSport HAS TO work outside Korea and total focus on that nation would be really bad. The point of a Sport is to be entertaining and you can be entertained by western pros in western tournaments, in fact I would argue that the "dramatic arc" for the western weekend LAN tournaments is much better than that of the Korean monthly ones. The demeaning comments directed at Xeris and fams are totally uncalled for IMO, they try to make a point and to start a discussion - which might enlighten us and improve the situation. Sounds like you didn't read peoples' posts in depth. Nor did you respond to any points that people have made (neither has Xeris/fams.) So how does pointing out that "things like culture acclimation/time zone differences/etc are far beyond the control of GOM" constitute as Korea worshiping? Pretty sure it's not the responsibility of ANY league in ANY country, even though GOM actually goes above and beyond the normal call of duty to accommodate Western players (see: player housing.) Also you say try and start a discussion, yet like I pointed out, fams/Xeris and their defenders such as yourself have yet to respond to a single point made by rational thinkers in this thread. They rely on their clout to spread their opinion without having to defend themselves, because ultimately they know that their message will reach more people. That's not a discussion. It's propaganda. | ||
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