On May 26 2011 13:55 Rabiator wrote: IMO there is a lot of "Korea worshipping" here.
There are good reasons for not moving to Korea and any discussion about "SC2 is bigger outside of Korea" is moot, because you can get results either way depending upon which criteria you proclaim to be valid / important. The fact remains that SC2 as an eSport HAS TO work outside Korea and total focus on that nation would be really bad. The point of a Sport is to be entertaining and you can be entertained by western pros in western tournaments, in fact I would argue that the "dramatic arc" for the western weekend LAN tournaments is much better than that of the Korean monthly ones.
The demeaning comments directed at Xeris and fams are totally uncalled for IMO, they try to make a point and to start a discussion - which might enlighten us and improve the situation.
Sounds like you didn't read peoples' posts in depth. Nor did you respond to any points that people have made (neither has Xeris/fams.) So how does pointing out that "things like culture acclimation/time zone differences/etc are far beyond the control of GOM" constitute as Korea worshiping? Pretty sure it's not the responsibility of ANY league in ANY country, even though GOM actually goes above and beyond the normal call of duty to accommodate Western players (see: player housing.)
Also you say try and start a discussion, yet like I pointed out, fams/Xeris and their defenders such as yourself have yet to respond to a single point made by rational thinkers in this thread. They rely on their clout to spread their opinion without having to defend themselves, because ultimately they know that their message will reach more people. That's not a discussion. It's propaganda.
Sure, if you flat out deny any argument as invalid it is propaganda and not a discussion. The fact remains that GOM doesnt have weekend tournaments to get foreigners there for short vacations yet; it is only the western scene which has these and invites the Koreans over. The fact remains that you have to live in bunk beds crammed in with other sardines and this isnt really for everyone. The fact also remains that there is this myth that talent and skill can only develop in Korea, which is totally untrue.
I really hope the best western pros DONT all move into Korea, because that would be the same as Bayern Munich in the german Bundesliga. They have the most money and whenever there is a promising player coming up in a smaller team they buy him up to sit on their bench. It sure creates a boring league if it is the same team which wins most of the time and I personally hate winning-team-joiners which many of the fans of that club are. Such a development would seriously hurt SC2 as an eSport in the west ...
Different ways of looking at things is GOOD and thus the "you must go to Korea to become great"-Korea-worshipping is a bad thing IMO. Its the same in biology - monocultures are weak against insects -, politics - one-party-systems are blind to aspects of life - and cultures - having a diverse number of cultures to choose from is much preferable to only being able to choose between shitty McDonalds or Burger King burgers. Having lots of different points of view is GOOD and the fledgling team houses in the west are a step in the right direction from this "you must go to Korea" nonsense.
On May 26 2011 13:55 Rabiator wrote: IMO there is a lot of "Korea worshipping" here.
There are good reasons for not moving to Korea and any discussion about "SC2 is bigger outside of Korea" is moot, because you can get results either way depending upon which criteria you proclaim to be valid / important. The fact remains that SC2 as an eSport HAS TO work outside Korea and total focus on that nation would be really bad. The point of a Sport is to be entertaining and you can be entertained by western pros in western tournaments, in fact I would argue that the "dramatic arc" for the western weekend LAN tournaments is much better than that of the Korean monthly ones.
The demeaning comments directed at Xeris and fams are totally uncalled for IMO, they try to make a point and to start a discussion - which might enlighten us and improve the situation.
Sounds like you didn't read peoples' posts in depth. Nor did you respond to any points that people have made (neither has Xeris/fams.) So how does pointing out that "things like culture acclimation/time zone differences/etc are far beyond the control of GOM" constitute as Korea worshiping? Pretty sure it's not the responsibility of ANY league in ANY country, even though GOM actually goes above and beyond the normal call of duty to accommodate Western players (see: player housing.)
Also you say try and start a discussion, yet like I pointed out, fams/Xeris and their defenders such as yourself have yet to respond to a single point made by rational thinkers in this thread. They rely on their clout to spread their opinion without having to defend themselves, because ultimately they know that their message will reach more people. That's not a discussion. It's propaganda.
This is the biggest problem, people are refusing to address the core issue.
Somehow, the argument has devolved into "opportunity cost" with people like that not realizing the true irony of that statement.
What about the opportunity cost of being a progamer? Forget the fact that you can make more money by getting higher education, full time jobs ect instead of playing SC. Do they really think they can live off of couple hundred bucks they make off of small online weekly tournaments?
It seems to me the "opportunity cost" of moving to Korea is delusional at best. You don't seriously become a progamer to make money. Money is nice, but shouldn't becoming more skilled at the game their priority? (Not to mention the fact that money will naturally come with skill)
As of right now, Foreigner scene will not be able to sustain itself if players keep using this excuse of I can make more money now!
The problems you raised (the OP) doesn't really follow along with your conclusion; as with most replies here, I don't see the point you're getting at.
You're raising problems but not really providing solutions to how you think they can be solved. Lets look at the points you raised: Living Conditions: language barriers, cultural differences, leaving family behind, etc etc - What did you expect GoM to do about this? Build a western style house for each Individual and pay to move their whole family over? Pay each individual to go to school for 2-4 years to learn Korean?
Practice Conditions: "it[GOM House] does not come equipped with professional gamers or any additional means of getting good practice. Players are left to their own devices, which usually ends up with them laddering on the Korean ladder"
- Again, there isn't anything that can be done about the language barrier. - What do you expect GOM to do here anyways? Tell Koreans to stay and practice with the foreigners? None of the top Koreans would do that simply because they would be sacrificing their own potential practices for it. And I'm sure you would be complaining just as much if they give you mediocre players. - And I never understood where these arguments come from. Why can't the group of foreigners staying at the Gom house practice with each other like a team? Who does SlayerS or MVP practice with? mostly themselves; and they went from a nobody team to two top teams. Sure, they can chat with other Korean gamers, but the foreigners can also chat with other foreigners (like on TeamLiquid); I mean foreigners might not be as generally as skilled as Koreans, but we're definitely not behind in terms of theory crafting.?
Cost of Living - Gom is already doing, and did a lot out of their own pockets. AFAIK, they paid for most of the previous foreigner expenses such as the World Championships, made the Gom house and all the equipments there. And they are doing the MLG exchange and paying for all the expenses of the winners of MLG. - So what more do you expect Gom to do? Pay for your entire team to go there? Build multiple Gom houses to accommodate multiple teams? Give me a break, this is as much of a business for Gom as it is for your team and sponsors. If your team and sponsors don't think it is worth it, what makes you think Gom will? Most of the foreigners that were sent there have shown poor results, so imo, it's the foreign players that needs to step it up and get better to let the sponsors deem that it is worth sending them over.
Opportunity Cost: "While you are in Korea for one month, you are missing countless online and LAN tournaments alike. If you move to Korea for one month to focus solely on the GSL, you are forgoing an average of $19,000 USD in potential earnings every 15 days¹." - I can use the same argument and say that for every month you're NOT in Korea, you are forgoing a potential earning of $10,000 - $100,000 USD from winning (or even just placing high) at GSL. - Fact of the matter is, you can "potentially" (as you worded) earn more in Korea than outside of Korea. Proof: http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/index.php - Now then your argument would only work if you factor in skills vs chance of winning. So basically, your argument assumes the foreign scene is less skilled than the Korean scene, which would make it potentially easier to win at foreign tournament. (I'm not agreeing or disagreeing the skill difference) - Ironically, then this would mean that it isn't a problem of opportunity cost, but a problem of the foreigners needing to step it up to increase their potential earning in Korea. (again, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just stating what I'm inferring from your arguments. - And lastly, the concept of opportunity cost isn't just about immediate cost. You forgot to factor in the fact that being in Korea would most likely improve the players faster, which if successful, would increase their earnings in the long run via winning more tournaments or getting better sponsors. Just look at Idra and Jinro
Conclusion - Finally, I can't seem to understand your conclusion. You went on to say that giving earlier notice would solve all those problems above, which it obviously doesn't. It certainly wouldn't change the Korean culture, its living conditions and its language, nor will it make plane tickets and hotel and food cheaper, nor will it help improve the foreigner's skill level. The only problem it solves as you said, is that those last minute notices that teams have been getting from Gom (which is a valid problem that you did not really point out in your main body). - All in all, this article provides nothing new, and seems to be just randomly taping on things that have already been discussed to death on these boards
On May 26 2011 13:55 Rabiator wrote: IMO there is a lot of "Korea worshipping" here.
There are good reasons for not moving to Korea and any discussion about "SC2 is bigger outside of Korea" is moot, because you can get results either way depending upon which criteria you proclaim to be valid / important. The fact remains that SC2 as an eSport HAS TO work outside Korea and total focus on that nation would be really bad. The point of a Sport is to be entertaining and you can be entertained by western pros in western tournaments, in fact I would argue that the "dramatic arc" for the western weekend LAN tournaments is much better than that of the Korean monthly ones.
The demeaning comments directed at Xeris and fams are totally uncalled for IMO, they try to make a point and to start a discussion - which might enlighten us and improve the situation.
Sounds like you didn't read peoples' posts in depth. Nor did you respond to any points that people have made (neither has Xeris/fams.) So how does pointing out that "things like culture acclimation/time zone differences/etc are far beyond the control of GOM" constitute as Korea worshiping? Pretty sure it's not the responsibility of ANY league in ANY country, even though GOM actually goes above and beyond the normal call of duty to accommodate Western players (see: player housing.)
Also you say try and start a discussion, yet like I pointed out, fams/Xeris and their defenders such as yourself have yet to respond to a single point made by rational thinkers in this thread. They rely on their clout to spread their opinion without having to defend themselves, because ultimately they know that their message will reach more people. That's not a discussion. It's propaganda.
Sure, if you flat out deny any argument as invalid it is propaganda and not a discussion. The fact remains that GOM doesnt have weekend tournaments to get foreigners there for short vacations yet; it is only the western scene which has these and invites the Koreans over. The fact remains that you have to live in bunk beds crammed in with other sardines and this isnt really for everyone. The fact also remains that there is this myth that talent and skill can only develop in Korea, which is totally untrue.
I really hope the best western pros DONT all move into Korea, because that would be the same as Bayern Munich in the german Bundesliga. They have the most money and whenever there is a promising player coming up in a smaller team they buy him up to sit on their bench. It sure creates a boring league if it is the same team which wins most of the time and I personally hate winning-team-joiners which many of the fans of that club are. Such a development would seriously hurt SC2 as an eSport in the west ...
Different ways of looking at things is GOOD and thus the "you must go to Korea to become great"-Korea-worshipping is a bad thing IMO. Its the same in biology - monocultures are weak against insects -, politics - one-party-systems are blind to aspects of life - and cultures - having a diverse number of cultures to choose from is much preferable to only being able to choose between shitty McDonalds or Burger King burgers. Having lots of different points of view is GOOD and the fledgling team houses in the west are a step in the right direction from this "you must go to Korea" nonsense.
It is not "Korea worshiping" at all. The argument is that Gom is providing such a ridiculous opportunity yet somehow the fault is on them that foreigners aren't moving to Korea. Sure you do not have to move to Korea to be a great player but it is one of the most sure way of improving your game, by playing with the best. Yet foreigners make up "opportunity cost" (a nonsense in my opinion) excuses.
Also,
Is it bad that World's pro football focus is in Europe?
Is it bad that NBA pools world's best talent in Basketball?
On May 26 2011 13:15 starcraft911 wrote: I agree that the cost of moving out of country are huge. Even if I won every GSL I'd still make less than I do now unless I could get some kind of sponsorship or my own line of keyboards or something which would never happen. Additionally, I like many things about the area I live in... I have my own boat that I can go out on the river and fish. I don't know much about korean fishing, but the stuff I do away from sc2 would be difficult for me to move so even an attempt to try and go pro isn't worth it for me and I think a lot of people are in similar situations.
It might be hard to believe for you guys, but SC2 in Korea is AT THE VERY LEAST, comparable in size to the rest of the world.
Except we're measuring the size in prize $$$ not viewer count. The only people who are directly impacted by viewer count are the hosts and anyone hold an ad slot.
I have seen people time and again claiming that there is more money to be made in NA/EU in total compared to Korea without checking or citing any numbers. I did some rough calculations based on TL tournament database (Disclaimer: I know it is the not comprehensive database but it does account for most of the huge tournaments.) Here is the breakup for 2011 based on TL tournament database.
Premier Tournaments (Jan-Jun Code A to Dreamhack Summer) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments Korean individual events: ~$685,000 NA/EU individual events: ~$292,000 (Note, you can include IGN PL S2 $50,000 for July as well since it is listed there but then GSL July prize pool also needs to be included which will further increase the difference)
Adding both up Korea : ~$685,000 World : ~$377,000
Note: You will need ~308 $1000 weekly tourneys or ~1540 $200 weekly tournaments to make up the balance. I doubt there have been that many scale tournaments to make up the difference.
Conclusion: Even though the prize-pools are much more top heavy in Korea, the total prize pool in Korea is in fact higher than the rest of the world combined (possibly even after talking the countless smaller tournaments into account).
Some food for thought If you can barely maintain Code S status, i.e. Ro32 each season and never progressing beyond that, you will make $1400 a month which is $5600 total (4 seasons).
According to Prize Money Rank, that will put you in the ~Top 60 prize ranking for this year. Note, a lot of the people above you will still be Koreans. It seems people like to put too much emphasis on small scale tournaments in EU/NA but the amount of competition in these too also do not allow you to make as much as you could by just staying in Top32 Code S and not progressing any time beyond it.
On May 26 2011 13:55 Rabiator wrote: IMO there is a lot of "Korea worshipping" here.
There are good reasons for not moving to Korea and any discussion about "SC2 is bigger outside of Korea" is moot, because you can get results either way depending upon which criteria you proclaim to be valid / important. The fact remains that SC2 as an eSport HAS TO work outside Korea and total focus on that nation would be really bad. The point of a Sport is to be entertaining and you can be entertained by western pros in western tournaments, in fact I would argue that the "dramatic arc" for the western weekend LAN tournaments is much better than that of the Korean monthly ones.
The demeaning comments directed at Xeris and fams are totally uncalled for IMO, they try to make a point and to start a discussion - which might enlighten us and improve the situation.
Sounds like you didn't read peoples' posts in depth. Nor did you respond to any points that people have made (neither has Xeris/fams.) So how does pointing out that "things like culture acclimation/time zone differences/etc are far beyond the control of GOM" constitute as Korea worshiping? Pretty sure it's not the responsibility of ANY league in ANY country, even though GOM actually goes above and beyond the normal call of duty to accommodate Western players (see: player housing.)
Also you say try and start a discussion, yet like I pointed out, fams/Xeris and their defenders such as yourself have yet to respond to a single point made by rational thinkers in this thread. They rely on their clout to spread their opinion without having to defend themselves, because ultimately they know that their message will reach more people. That's not a discussion. It's propaganda.
Sure, if you flat out deny any argument as invalid it is propaganda and not a discussion. The fact remains that GOM doesnt have weekend tournaments to get foreigners there for short vacations yet; it is only the western scene which has these and invites the Koreans over. The fact remains that you have to live in bunk beds crammed in with other sardines and this isnt really for everyone. The fact also remains that there is this myth that talent and skill can only develop in Korea, which is totally untrue.
Once again, what does that have to do with GOM? Space is tight and housing is expensive in Asia. Are you saying GOM is not doing enough because they aren't booking 5 star hotels for foreigners? And the nature of GOM is long tournaments. That's who they are. It would be equally ridiculous for me to say MLG doesn't cater to the viewer because it doesn't provide perpetual content like GOM does. See how dumb that sounds?
Also, I don't deny any argument as invalid. We countered them (read most posts in this thread; a lot of them have addressed every single fallacy in their posts.)
I really hope the best western pros DONT all move into Korea, because that would be the same as Bayern Munich in the german Bundesliga. They have the most money and whenever there is a promising player coming up in a smaller team they buy him up to sit on their bench. It sure creates a boring league if it is the same team which wins most of the time and I personally hate winning-team-joiners which many of the fans of that club are. Such a development would seriously hurt SC2 as an eSport in the west ...
Huh? Not familiar with that since I'm not German, but based on your explanation, that just sounds like a team monopoly and is completely unrelated. GOM isn't a team. Korea isn't a team. Foreigners moving to Korea aren't joining the "Korea team." They're moving to Korea to compete. What is your analogy even trying to say?
Different ways of looking at things is GOOD and thus the "you must go to Korea to become great"-Korea-worshipping is a bad thing IMO. Its the same in biology - monocultures are weak against insects -, politics - one-party-systems are blind to aspects of life - and cultures - having a diverse number of cultures to choose from is much preferable to only being able to choose between shitty McDonalds or Burger King burgers. Having lots of different points of view is GOOD and the fledgling team houses in the west are a step in the right direction from this "you must go to Korea" nonsense.
Again with your meaningless analogies. A comparison that makes more sense: I follow the fighting game scene as well as SC2. There is a very notable skill difference between the different regions of east coast US, west coast, Japan and Europe, across the various games. In essence, there are local communities (the ones mentioned in the last sentence) and the global community.
Players from Japan (arguably regarded as the best in a lot of fighting games, with the Marvel series being a notable exception) sometimes come to the US to compete in local tourneys and 'money matches' (think a 1v1 scrim with money on the line.) Even though Japan is regarded as the top fighting game mecca so to speak, that doesn't destroy or trivialize the east coast/west coast scene.
Yet if you really, truly wanted to be the best, you would have to travel to Japan and compete in their arcade leagues and regularly beat the top Japanese players, such as Tokido and Daigo. Some Americans have attempted this in the past (though not recently.) Meanwhile, the US holds the crown as the top Marvel vs Capcom country. It is "our game," and now Japan has recently gotten into MvC3 and must prove themselves against US. To do so, they have to travel here and prove themselves; they'll get a chance to do so at the upcoming EvO tournament.
So the point is that having a 'top country' isn't bad at all. Are you saying Brood War was a bad game or un-worthwhile experience between Korea was CLEARLY the best there?
On May 26 2011 12:25 mango_destroyer wrote: Wow a whole article outlining all the "problems with korea" yet provides no solutions other than...they should you know...talk to each other and like communicate bro.
Exactly what everyone is thinking about this article. It looks like a high school English student going off topic in his essay.
Huh? Not familiar with that since I'm not German, but based on your explanation, that just sounds like a team monopoly and is completely unrelated. GOM isn't a team. Korea isn't a team. Foreigners moving to Korea aren't joining the "Korea team." They're moving to Korea to compete. What is your analogy even trying to say?
He's just trying to use a flawed and subjective value judgment on monopolistic competition being bad for viewership. This very concept was challenged extremely recently with the Miami Heat. The NBA's ratings are at an all time high when the Miami Heat are playing - basically because of their overwhelming talent. The high viewership during the 90's Bulls and the 80's Celtics/Lakers are all examples of most people preferring to watch talent concentrated in one area/team.
However, anecdotal analogies and circumstantial evidence are mostly worthless, so I won't be presumptious and side with one argument or the other. I don't think anyone really has a clue on what's really "good" or "bad" for ESPORTS.
On May 25 2011 22:10 Arceus wrote: All I see in this article is another complaint-fest. Gotta say it again that GOM is so kind, they did their best about it. They cover cost, change format, give undeserved invitations, provide housing etc Need else ? GOM sending MC/Nestea to foreigner house as practice partners ?
and
Now with the Western Starcraft 2 scene surpassing that of even Korea
hell no
Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea.
Growing does not mean surpassing.
In that context it did. He wasn't talking about it skill wise, or at least that's what I was assuming.
On May 26 2011 13:14 Nayl wrote:
On May 26 2011 13:06 TheSubtleArt wrote:
On May 25 2011 22:10 Arceus wrote: All I see in this article is another complaint-fest. Gotta say it again that GOM is so kind, they did their best about it. They cover cost, change format, give undeserved invitations, provide housing etc Need else ? GOM sending MC/Nestea to foreigner house as practice partners ?
and
Now with the Western Starcraft 2 scene surpassing that of even Korea
hell no
Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea.
Please.
There seems to be a trend in TL where they take "SC2 in Korea is not as big as expected" as SC2 has failed in Korea/West has bigger scene ect.
SC2 is small in Korea RELATIVE to SC1 in Korea.
GSTL May Finals got 760,000 view on VODs, neverminding all the live audience.
Take that in for a second ok?
760,000 views.
Have you seen any non korean SC2 content that generates that kind of view? We're talking about the entire world here, outside of Korea.
It might be hard to believe for you guys, but SC2 in Korea is at the very least, comparable in size to the rest of the world.
Lol but you do realize that a large portion of those views were from people outside Korea? I know I watched those games lol.
Sc2 is not as big as expected is true, but it's also true that the foreign scene has been much more active. Look at the huge number of tournaments, LANs, and online events we have going on. NASL, IPL, MLG (twice), Dreamhack, IEM, TSL, Black Dragon League, Copenhagen games, Assembly, etc, not to mention tons of weekly online tournaments, all in one year. By comparison Korea has GSL, GSTL, and GSL world tournament.....and that's it. Outside of GOMtv theres almost nothing going on. It's been a persistant complaint by Koreans and foreigners considering travelling to Korea that there is very little activity outside of the GSL.
Lol you do realize the viewer count is from GOMTV.COM not GOMTV.NET?
760,000 view is purely from Korean Viewers.
Gomtv.net's count is 720,000. Pure Korean numbers are still higher than views from entire world outside of Korea.
Also BW technically only has 3 tournaments- OSL/MSL/Proleague (Oh and courage I guess). It isn't about the number of tournaments; it is about sustainability and quality, of which Western scene hasn't proved yet. WC3 was huge too when it first came out, now it has been abandoned at large.
Also something to think about: Korea's SC2 scene is trying to move towards the Brood war model, which is corporations sponsoring each teams resulting in players recieving salaries instead of relying heavily on prize money the way they do in the foreigner scene. This in long term is going to be much more sustainable than prize money grabbing.
And in that regard it's failing. Sc2 in Korea has failed the attract the big sponsors like brood war did. The only team that has found a sponsor like that is IM with Coca-Cola. the rest of the teams can't even afford to send a player abroad without GOM's volition.
On May 26 2011 14:23 Nayl wrote: Is it bad that World's pro football focus is in Europe?
Is it really focused in Europe? You do seem to forget South America with loads of awesome players there. They do have a different type of players there and that is good!
South America = tricky good at playing with the ball Europe = team oriented strategic (and sometimes boring) playstyle
This is GOOD and it is the same in Starcraft, because a clash of styles is exciting. So it would be nice to see shorter tournaments from GOM instead of asking foreigners to live there forever and to "become Koreans". That would be bad IMO. Sure you can live there for some time and try to learn something, but giving up the good things you had outside by following the stricter Korean training schedule isnt a good tradeoff.
On May 26 2011 13:15 starcraft911 wrote: I agree that the cost of moving out of country are huge. Even if I won every GSL I'd still make less than I do now unless I could get some kind of sponsorship or my own line of keyboards or something which would never happen. Additionally, I like many things about the area I live in... I have my own boat that I can go out on the river and fish. I don't know much about korean fishing, but the stuff I do away from sc2 would be difficult for me to move so even an attempt to try and go pro isn't worth it for me and I think a lot of people are in similar situations.
It might be hard to believe for you guys, but SC2 in Korea is AT THE VERY LEAST, comparable in size to the rest of the world.
Except we're measuring the size in prize $$$ not viewer count. The only people who are directly impacted by viewer count are the hosts and anyone hold an ad slot.
I hate this attitude of "Oh I can make more money if I stay".
realistically, who becomes Pro gamer to make lots of money? If that is your goal in becoming SC2 pro, then you should stop and go do something else more productive.
It happens that in the world of progaming, money will naturally come if you are skilled. If you refuse a sure method of getting better (i.e. moving to Korea) just because it nets you little money in short term, then it will be hard for people in foreign scene to really succeed in SC2 in long term. If you really do love playing this game, why not give it all and try rather than try to make few quick buck that isn't going to sustainable anyways?
Of course progaming is about making money, its a profession. You go where you have the chance at a better salary and more prize money I can't see how that isn't obvious. Idyllic aspirations take a back seat when you need to support yourself and pay your bills. Going to Korea you're playing in 1 tournament while being completely secluded from other foreign events. Bad latency also means you won't be playing your best in online tournaments either,
Also why is it assumed moving to Korea will just immediately make you better? What exactly is there in Korea that's gonna help you out? As far as I know liquid is the only foreign team with a practice house in Korea, where their members will receive quality practice partners. What would any other foreigner do in Korea? With a language barrier you're not going to get many productive practice partners, which basically means you're coming to a new country to play on the Korean ladder and a few GSL games. Do you really think that's worth it? Plus under GOM's initiative more Koreans are starting to attend foreign events and that number will hopefully increase along with the general skill of foreign gamers.
On May 26 2011 13:55 Rabiator wrote: IMO there is a lot of "Korea worshipping" here.
There are good reasons for not moving to Korea and any discussion about "SC2 is bigger outside of Korea" is moot, because you can get results either way depending upon which criteria you proclaim to be valid / important. The fact remains that SC2 as an eSport HAS TO work outside Korea and total focus on that nation would be really bad. The point of a Sport is to be entertaining and you can be entertained by western pros in western tournaments, in fact I would argue that the "dramatic arc" for the western weekend LAN tournaments is much better than that of the Korean monthly ones.
The demeaning comments directed at Xeris and fams are totally uncalled for IMO, they try to make a point and to start a discussion - which might enlighten us and improve the situation.
Sounds like you didn't read peoples' posts in depth. Nor did you respond to any points that people have made (neither has Xeris/fams.) So how does pointing out that "things like culture acclimation/time zone differences/etc are far beyond the control of GOM" constitute as Korea worshiping? Pretty sure it's not the responsibility of ANY league in ANY country, even though GOM actually goes above and beyond the normal call of duty to accommodate Western players (see: player housing.)
Also you say try and start a discussion, yet like I pointed out, fams/Xeris and their defenders such as yourself have yet to respond to a single point made by rational thinkers in this thread. They rely on their clout to spread their opinion without having to defend themselves, because ultimately they know that their message will reach more people. That's not a discussion. It's propaganda.
Sure, if you flat out deny any argument as invalid it is propaganda and not a discussion. The fact remains that GOM doesnt have weekend tournaments to get foreigners there for short vacations yet; it is only the western scene which has these and invites the Koreans over. The fact remains that you have to live in bunk beds crammed in with other sardines and this isnt really for everyone. The fact also remains that there is this myth that talent and skill can only develop in Korea, which is totally untrue.
Once again, what does that have to do with GOM? Space is tight and housing is expensive in Asia. Are you saying GOM is not doing enough because they aren't booking 5 star hotels for foreigners? And the nature of GOM is long tournaments. That's who they are. It would be equally ridiculous for me to say MLG doesn't cater to the viewer because it doesn't provide perpetual content like GOM does. See how dumb that sounds?
Also, I don't deny any argument as invalid. We countered them (read most posts in this thread; a lot of them have addressed every single fallacy in their posts.)
1. You sure deny arguments as "meaningless analogies". 2. I am not saying GOM is responsible for the culture and living conditions in Korea. 3. Why cant GOM make a weekend / weekly tournament? Your argument that its not their style is simply nonsense. They can do whatever they want to do with their viewing broadcasting time and spicing it up with different formats might be a good thing. I for one would love to see Koreans without a week to prepare for their next opponent and it is just such a thing which creates exciting games in the GSTL (which funnily only lasts a week which you said wasnt in their nature).
On May 26 2011 14:23 Nayl wrote: Is it bad that World's pro football focus is in Europe?
Is it really focused in Europe? You do seem to forget South America with loads of awesome players there. They do have a different type of players there and that is good!
South America = tricky good at playing with the ball Europe = team oriented strategic (and sometimes boring) playstyle
This is GOOD and it is the same in Starcraft, because a clash of styles is exciting. So it would be nice to see shorter tournaments from GOM instead of asking foreigners to live there forever and to "become Koreans". That would be bad IMO. Sure you can live there for some time and try to learn something, but giving up the good things you had outside by following the stricter Korean training schedule isnt a good tradeoff.
Don't want to get too far off topic but world football is focused in Europe. No where else in the world does competition come close to that of England, Spain, Italy and to a lesser extent Germany and France.
Nearly every player that represents the bigger South American national sides (Brazil, Argentina) ply their trade in Europe, hence the agreement made a few years ago for some South American sides (Brazil and Argentina) include to play their friendlies in Europe to reduce travel time for their players.
The gap between Korea and the rest of the world at this point in time isn't that great yet, but I'd put that down to the game not being figured out yet. Once it is, and it's a only a matter of time, the stricter training regimes will benefit the Koreans more and more as their hone and practice what really needs to be practiced. Stability benefits practice more than the 'Western' model as it were. In the end it's about gamers sacrificing some things to become the best they can, and it's all up to the individual regarding how much they are willing to give up.
Another thing: teams do prepare for the GSTL, albeit differently and perhaps with less focus compared to the individual leagues because that's where the money is now. But certainly they still have players practice to act as snipers. Given the new format changes, I expect team league practice to intensify as well.
There should be a few MLGs in Korea next year that would get lots of Korea vs. the world games for us to see! It would be like the brutal preliminaries for GSL so many good players!
On May 26 2011 14:19 Fubi wrote: The problems you raised (the OP) doesn't really follow along with your conclusion; as with most replies here, I don't see the point you're getting at.
You're raising problems but not really providing solutions to how you think they can be solved. Lets look at the points you raised: Living Conditions: language barriers, cultural differences, leaving family behind, etc etc - What did you expect GoM to do about this? Build a western style house for each Individual and pay to move their whole family over? Pay each individual to go to school for 2-4 years to learn Korean?
Practice Conditions: "it[GOM House] does not come equipped with professional gamers or any additional means of getting good practice. Players are left to their own devices, which usually ends up with them laddering on the Korean ladder"
- Again, there isn't anything that can be done about the language barrier. - What do you expect GOM to do here anyways? Tell Koreans to stay and practice with the foreigners? None of the top Koreans would do that simply because they would be sacrificing their own potential practices for it. And I'm sure you would be complaining just as much if they give you mediocre players. - And I never understood where these arguments come from. Why can't the group of foreigners staying at the Gom house practice with each other like a team? Who does SlayerS or MVP practice with? mostly themselves; and they went from a nobody team to two top teams. Sure, they can chat with other Korean gamers, but the foreigners can also chat with other foreigners (like on TeamLiquid); I mean foreigners might not be as generally as skilled as Koreans, but we're definitely not behind in terms of theory crafting.?
Cost of Living - Gom is already doing, and did a lot out of their own pockets. AFAIK, they paid for most of the previous foreigner expenses such as the World Championships, made the Gom house and all the equipments there. And they are doing the MLG exchange and paying for all the expenses of the winners of MLG. - So what more do you expect Gom to do? Pay for your entire team to go there? Build multiple Gom houses to accommodate multiple teams? Give me a break, this is as much of a business for Gom as it is for your team and sponsors. If your team and sponsors don't think it is worth it, what makes you think Gom will? Most of the foreigners that were sent there have shown poor results, so imo, it's the foreign players that needs to step it up and get better to let the sponsors deem that it is worth sending them over.
Opportunity Cost: "While you are in Korea for one month, you are missing countless online and LAN tournaments alike. If you move to Korea for one month to focus solely on the GSL, you are forgoing an average of $19,000 USD in potential earnings every 15 days¹." - I can use the same argument and say that for every month you're NOT in Korea, you are forgoing a potential earning of $10,000 - $100,000 USD from winning (or even just placing high) at GSL. - Fact of the matter is, you can "potentially" (as you worded) earn more in Korea than outside of Korea. Proof: http://ehcg.djgamblore.com/index.php - Now then your argument would only work if you factor in skills vs chance of winning. So basically, your argument assumes the foreign scene is less skilled than the Korean scene, which would make it potentially easier to win at foreign tournament. (I'm not agreeing or disagreeing the skill difference) - Ironically, then this would mean that it isn't a problem of opportunity cost, but a problem of the foreigners needing to step it up to increase their potential earning in Korea. (again, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just stating what I'm inferring from your arguments. - And lastly, the concept of opportunity cost isn't just about immediate cost. You forgot to factor in the fact that being in Korea would most likely improve the players faster, which if successful, would increase their earnings in the long run via winning more tournaments or getting better sponsors. Just look at Idra and Jinro
Conclusion - Finally, I can't seem to understand your conclusion. You went on to say that giving earlier notice would solve all those problems above, which it obviously doesn't. It certainly wouldn't change the Korean culture, its living conditions and its language, nor will it make plane tickets and hotel and food cheaper, nor will it help improve the foreigner's skill level. The only problem it solves as you said, is that those last minute notices that teams have been getting from Gom (which is a valid problem that you did not really point out in your main body). - All in all, this article provides nothing new, and seems to be just randomly taping on things that have already been discussed to death on these boards
2200 hours for Korean / Chinese / Japanese / ( You can do any of these within a year out of the 8760 hours/year ) You can learn ~2000 characters(hanja) within 1-3 month of SRS ( Anki or Mnemosyne ) you can memorize the alphabet within a few hours
On May 26 2011 13:15 starcraft911 wrote: I agree that the cost of moving out of country are huge. Even if I won every GSL I'd still make less than I do now unless I could get some kind of sponsorship or my own line of keyboards or something which would never happen. Additionally, I like many things about the area I live in... I have my own boat that I can go out on the river and fish. I don't know much about korean fishing, but the stuff I do away from sc2 would be difficult for me to move so even an attempt to try and go pro isn't worth it for me and I think a lot of people are in similar situations.
It might be hard to believe for you guys, but SC2 in Korea is AT THE VERY LEAST, comparable in size to the rest of the world.
Except we're measuring the size in prize $$$ not viewer count. The only people who are directly impacted by viewer count are the hosts and anyone hold an ad slot.
I hate this attitude of "Oh I can make more money if I stay".
realistically, who becomes Pro gamer to make lots of money? If that is your goal in becoming SC2 pro, then you should stop and go do something else more productive.
It happens that in the world of progaming, money will naturally come if you are skilled. If you refuse a sure method of getting better (i.e. moving to Korea) just because it nets you little money in short term, then it will be hard for people in foreign scene to really succeed in SC2 in long term. If you really do love playing this game, why not give it all and try rather than try to make few quick buck that isn't going to sustainable anyways?
Of course progaming is about making money, its a profession. You go where you have the chance at a better salary and more prize money I can't see how that isn't obvious. Idyllic aspirations take a back seat when you need to support yourself and pay your bills. Going to Korea you're playing in 1 tournament while being completely secluded from other foreign events. Bad latency also means you won't be playing your best in online tournaments either,
Also why is it assumed moving to Korea will just immediately make you better? What exactly is there in Korea that's gonna help you out? As far as I know liquid is the only foreign team with a practice house in Korea, where their members will receive quality practice partners. What would any other foreigner do in Korea? With a language barrier you're not going to get many productive practice partners, which basically means you're coming to a new country to play on the Korean ladder and a few GSL games. Do you really think that's worth it? Plus under GOM's initiative more Koreans are starting to attend foreign events and that number will hopefully increase along with the general skill of foreign gamers.
Becoming a progamer to make money is not a realistic goal I think almost everyone can agree on. Most progamers I'd think play this game because they love playing this game. So in that sense, the job isn't necessarily focused on making money yet.
Of course you are going to improve in Korea. Even if you are not in a pro house, the Korean ladder itself has much more higher quality than Europe or NA; and really, playing Korean ladder from outside of Korea is not really optimal.
Playing in GSL itself should be a huge experience; a good chance to get used to the big stage. Sure you aren't going to win right away, but did you think Jinro/TLO/Huk thought they could take a GSL title straight away? Heavens forbid you have to work for something.
Gap will only widen if current trend continues. Once SC2's prohouses become more structured the way SC1's work, they'll just pull way ahead of everyone else since they would be practicing only with themselves; exposure to Korean in a few tournaments will not improve the foreign scene. BW we had WCG, and foreign scene was leagues below the Korean scene. Chances are scene outside of Korea may very well shrivel up after the initial heat, if we don't keep up with the Korean scene. Foreign pro houses are step in the right direction but it will be very difficult to establish such things when people are picky and the funds are limited.
It's not even about foreign players moving to Korea. It's about whether non-korean progamers are willing to all-in their life in this game the way Koreans are willing to do.
On May 26 2011 14:23 Nayl wrote: Is it bad that World's pro football focus is in Europe?
Is it really focused in Europe? You do seem to forget South America with loads of awesome players there. They do have a different type of players there and that is good!
South America = tricky good at playing with the ball Europe = team oriented strategic (and sometimes boring) playstyle
This is GOOD and it is the same in Starcraft, because a clash of styles is exciting. So it would be nice to see shorter tournaments from GOM instead of asking foreigners to live there forever and to "become Koreans". That would be bad IMO. Sure you can live there for some time and try to learn something, but giving up the good things you had outside by following the stricter Korean training schedule isnt a good tradeoff.
And almost all good south Americans play in Euro leagues one way or another. I think that alone proves my point.
I read the article. I cant take it seriously. The title is misleading to the whole argument, which is full of holes. The oppprtunity cost argument doesnt really reflect the definition of opportunity cost.
People are allowed to express their opinions, even if theyre wrong, but you best be willing to defend it. Especially when its publicized like this.
EPT
