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iI feel there is a fundamental, underlying problem that a lot of people seem to ignore in these kind of debates. The organizational structure of Korean teams and leagues differ vastly from their Western counterparts. Because of these differences, there is a tremendous barrier to overcome in order to successfully compete in Korea.
The first thing to take note of is the GSL format. Each match is known well in advance which gives competitors ample opportunity to "scout" their opponent and practice the matchup accordingly. Contrast this to the Western format of generally a weekend or day long affair, which highlights more dynamic attributes.
Next, take a look at team structure and culture. Being on a team in Korea can require certain sacrifices to be made that you frankly wouldn't see in the West. Certainly, both cultures share a common friendship within their own teams, but it can go beyond that in Korea. There, it can be expected of a lower player to sacrifice a month of personal gain to help train a player in a better position to win, or to practice on one or two maps for a specific matchup in order to snipe some ace from another team. I highly doubt Idra gets Axslav to study and mimic Cruncher to prepare for that match.
Now, mix those two points together and you begin to see why the cards are stacked against foreigners in Korea. It's not simply a matter of "being away from friends and family," or "not having practice partners." It's a system that rewards players who capitalize on their skill along with the sacrifice of players on their team. When you virtually dont have a team in Korea that will lift you up on their shoulders, it becomes a gigantic disadvantage for you.
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it seems to me like the reason for foreigners not accepting their invitation to the supertournament is more because of the real life implications than anything else. It's not like Korea has the responsibility to bring foreigners in. I mean, they have done a superb job so far and it is up to the foreigners to decide if they want to make that sacrifice. It's not like Korea will change their culture just to bring in foreigners to play starcraft 2. It's like you being a guest in someone's house and telling them what to eat, giving them a curfew and telling them to change their furniture.
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On May 26 2011 16:46 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 13:33 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 13:23 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 26 2011 13:08 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 26 2011 13:06 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 25 2011 22:10 Arceus wrote:All I see in this article is another complaint-fest. Gotta say it again that GOM is so kind, they did their best about it. They cover cost, change format, give undeserved invitations, provide housing etc Need else ? GOM sending MC/Nestea to foreigner house as practice partners ? and Now with the Western Starcraft 2 scene surpassing that of even Korea hell no Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea. Growing does not mean surpassing. In that context it did. He wasn't talking about it skill wise, or at least that's what I was assuming. On May 26 2011 13:14 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 13:06 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 25 2011 22:10 Arceus wrote:All I see in this article is another complaint-fest. Gotta say it again that GOM is so kind, they did their best about it. They cover cost, change format, give undeserved invitations, provide housing etc Need else ? GOM sending MC/Nestea to foreigner house as practice partners ? and Now with the Western Starcraft 2 scene surpassing that of even Korea hell no Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea. Please. There seems to be a trend in TL where they take "SC2 in Korea is not as big as expected" as SC2 has failed in Korea/West has bigger scene ect. SC2 is small in Korea RELATIVE to SC1 in Korea. GSTL May Finals got 760,000 view on VODs, neverminding all the live audience. Take that in for a second ok? 760,000 views. Have you seen any non korean SC2 content that generates that kind of view? We're talking about the entire world here, outside of Korea. It might be hard to believe for you guys, but SC2 in Korea is at the very least, comparable in size to the rest of the world. Lol but you do realize that a large portion of those views were from people outside Korea? I know I watched those games lol. Sc2 is not as big as expected is true, but it's also true that the foreign scene has been much more active. Look at the huge number of tournaments, LANs, and online events we have going on. NASL, IPL, MLG (twice), Dreamhack, IEM, TSL, Black Dragon League, Copenhagen games, Assembly, etc, not to mention tons of weekly online tournaments, all in one year. By comparison Korea has GSL, GSTL, and GSL world tournament.....and that's it. Outside of GOMtv theres almost nothing going on. It's been a persistant complaint by Koreans and foreigners considering travelling to Korea that there is very little activity outside of the GSL. Lol you do realize the viewer count is from GOMTV.COM not GOMTV.NET? 760,000 view is purely from Korean Viewers. Gomtv.net's count is 720,000. Pure Korean numbers are still higher than views from entire world outside of Korea. Also BW technically only has 3 tournaments- OSL/MSL/Proleague (Oh and courage I guess). It isn't about the number of tournaments; it is about sustainability and quality, of which Western scene hasn't proved yet. WC3 was huge too when it first came out, now it has been abandoned at large. Also something to think about: Korea's SC2 scene is trying to move towards the Brood war model, which is corporations sponsoring each teams resulting in players recieving salaries instead of relying heavily on prize money the way they do in the foreigner scene. This in long term is going to be much more sustainable than prize money grabbing. And in that regard it's failing. Sc2 in Korea has failed the attract the big sponsors like brood war did. The only team that has found a sponsor like that is IM with Coca-Cola. the rest of the teams can't even afford to send a player abroad without GOM's volition.
It sure is still doing as well as, if not better, than the entire foreign scene.
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What makes you think that you, as in foreign teams, are somehow special? If you don't like the conditions in Korea, don't go there, simple as that. And please, stop insinuating foreign players are as good as the top Korean pros. They're not, and with this attitude, they never will be. Can't believe a proffessional team would post such a whine.
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You are critisizing Korea for factors that are outside their control or part of korean culture, are you really asking for better living conditions than what the koreans themselves are currently have? Do you really want them to learn english just so they can speak with a few foreigners without a trnaslator? Ever heard the saying "when in rome, do as the romans do"?
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I find it absolutely ridiculous and appauling that gom and MLG do everything in their power to make things easier and its gotten easier and easier over the past months and people start complaining more? whats with yoou fnatic guys do you have some personal vendetta against korea. Its kind of wierd how all of these korean "hate" posts are coming out of the same organization.
So many of the points you make are invalid im really tired of having to explain why but you make alot of the same points as xeris maybe i will just copy and paste a few posts over from there and edit them for your post.
Also the top earners fromm starcraft 2 are in korea, and it will continue to be like that, especially if a korean wins MLG or NASL. Meaning that the best money is still in korea if your team will pay for your travel to such events. Koreans are going to almost all events. I think maybe you should address the problem that maybe teams like fnatic dont have as much money to send their players around to all these events like alot of korean teams do. Because we will be seeing koreans at all major lan events now and i dont expect it to slow down.'
Edit: i will elaborate more tommorow, but right now im going to watch the best starcraft tournament in the world, the GSL
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On May 26 2011 16:46 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 13:33 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 13:23 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 26 2011 13:08 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 26 2011 13:06 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 25 2011 22:10 Arceus wrote:All I see in this article is another complaint-fest. Gotta say it again that GOM is so kind, they did their best about it. They cover cost, change format, give undeserved invitations, provide housing etc Need else ? GOM sending MC/Nestea to foreigner house as practice partners ? and Now with the Western Starcraft 2 scene surpassing that of even Korea hell no Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea. Growing does not mean surpassing. In that context it did. He wasn't talking about it skill wise, or at least that's what I was assuming. On May 26 2011 13:14 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 13:06 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 25 2011 22:10 Arceus wrote:All I see in this article is another complaint-fest. Gotta say it again that GOM is so kind, they did their best about it. They cover cost, change format, give undeserved invitations, provide housing etc Need else ? GOM sending MC/Nestea to foreigner house as practice partners ? and Now with the Western Starcraft 2 scene surpassing that of even Korea hell no Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea. Please. There seems to be a trend in TL where they take "SC2 in Korea is not as big as expected" as SC2 has failed in Korea/West has bigger scene ect. SC2 is small in Korea RELATIVE to SC1 in Korea. GSTL May Finals got 760,000 view on VODs, neverminding all the live audience. Take that in for a second ok? 760,000 views. Have you seen any non korean SC2 content that generates that kind of view? We're talking about the entire world here, outside of Korea. It might be hard to believe for you guys, but SC2 in Korea is at the very least, comparable in size to the rest of the world. Lol but you do realize that a large portion of those views were from people outside Korea? I know I watched those games lol. Sc2 is not as big as expected is true, but it's also true that the foreign scene has been much more active. Look at the huge number of tournaments, LANs, and online events we have going on. NASL, IPL, MLG (twice), Dreamhack, IEM, TSL, Black Dragon League, Copenhagen games, Assembly, etc, not to mention tons of weekly online tournaments, all in one year. By comparison Korea has GSL, GSTL, and GSL world tournament.....and that's it. Outside of GOMtv theres almost nothing going on. It's been a persistant complaint by Koreans and foreigners considering travelling to Korea that there is very little activity outside of the GSL. Lol you do realize the viewer count is from GOMTV.COM not GOMTV.NET? 760,000 view is purely from Korean Viewers. Gomtv.net's count is 720,000. Pure Korean numbers are still higher than views from entire world outside of Korea. Also BW technically only has 3 tournaments- OSL/MSL/Proleague (Oh and courage I guess). It isn't about the number of tournaments; it is about sustainability and quality, of which Western scene hasn't proved yet. WC3 was huge too when it first came out, now it has been abandoned at large. Also something to think about: Korea's SC2 scene is trying to move towards the Brood war model, which is corporations sponsoring each teams resulting in players recieving salaries instead of relying heavily on prize money the way they do in the foreigner scene. This in long term is going to be much more sustainable than prize money grabbing. And in that regard it's failing. Sc2 in Korea has failed the attract the big sponsors like brood war did. The only team that has found a sponsor like that is IM with Coca-Cola. the rest of the teams can't even afford to send a player abroad without GOM's volition.
What do you mean its failing?
Of course its still less popular then a DECADE OLD GAME.
When do you think brood war became so so big? not a year after the game was out? I have not followed it back but pretty sure it took some time.
Coca-cola is a huge sponsor, GSL it self gets sponsored by major companies like LG and you call it failing? Tell me all mighty scource on the internet, what does the west has so much on this point? Do all foreigner teams get sponsored by whole famous companies and got money enough to send their players to everywhere?
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On May 25 2011 22:22 mustache wrote:
Your reasons why going to korea isn't optimal is well written and thought out though it seems your article has no actual purpose.
Are you trying to say korean tournaments should be set up so that foreigners can compete in them? Why?
Anyone in Korea can compete in the GSL, just like anyone in the US can compete in MLG.
Those that can't go there simply can't go there, and I'm not sure what is wrong with that.
The way you wrote your article it seems you think the koreans are being unreasonable by not changing the way they operate to accomodate foreigners in an optimal way. whcih would be an absolutely silly thing to be complaining about
If I'm reading this wrong feel free to correct me
EDIT: you also seem to be saying that korea is missing out by not changing the way the do things to get more foreigners in the scene, as if having more foreigners would be beneficial to them.
The worst part is that , every change GSL has made in the past few weeks has been made to accomodate foreigners more. MLG exchange program coupled with the new format changes makes it very easy for foreigners who get top 4 in MLG to come to korea spend a week there and know from there weather they will be in the up and down matches (3 days to adjust to the time and 4-5 days for the round of 32 and round of 16 code a) So if you dont make it, what have you really missed out on in a weeks time, not MLG , not dreamhack, maybe a small tournament or 2? That and the MLG exchange program is all expenses paid so its not like you had to spend any money to get there, or any money while you were there unless your buying stuff for yourself wich is your own perogative. Not to mention that the winner of MLG gets a spot into code S and as long as you dont have any prior engagements in terms of money even if you keep getting knocked out in the round of 32 in code s your going to be making more prize money then 90% of pro gamers in the west.
I honestly dont understand these posts that are popping up, but it is coming from one organization (Fnatic) and they seem to have a very skewed view on this whole situation. If they dont want to send their players thats fine, why do they need to try to convince everyone else not to go? We all want to see more foreigners in the GSL.
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On May 26 2011 17:44 Nayl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 16:46 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 26 2011 13:33 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 13:23 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 26 2011 13:08 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 26 2011 13:06 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 25 2011 22:10 Arceus wrote:All I see in this article is another complaint-fest. Gotta say it again that GOM is so kind, they did their best about it. They cover cost, change format, give undeserved invitations, provide housing etc Need else ? GOM sending MC/Nestea to foreigner house as practice partners ? and Now with the Western Starcraft 2 scene surpassing that of even Korea hell no Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea. Growing does not mean surpassing. In that context it did. He wasn't talking about it skill wise, or at least that's what I was assuming. On May 26 2011 13:14 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 13:06 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 25 2011 22:10 Arceus wrote:All I see in this article is another complaint-fest. Gotta say it again that GOM is so kind, they did their best about it. They cover cost, change format, give undeserved invitations, provide housing etc Need else ? GOM sending MC/Nestea to foreigner house as practice partners ? and Now with the Western Starcraft 2 scene surpassing that of even Korea hell no Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea. Please. There seems to be a trend in TL where they take "SC2 in Korea is not as big as expected" as SC2 has failed in Korea/West has bigger scene ect. SC2 is small in Korea RELATIVE to SC1 in Korea. GSTL May Finals got 760,000 view on VODs, neverminding all the live audience. Take that in for a second ok? 760,000 views. Have you seen any non korean SC2 content that generates that kind of view? We're talking about the entire world here, outside of Korea. It might be hard to believe for you guys, but SC2 in Korea is at the very least, comparable in size to the rest of the world. Lol but you do realize that a large portion of those views were from people outside Korea? I know I watched those games lol. Sc2 is not as big as expected is true, but it's also true that the foreign scene has been much more active. Look at the huge number of tournaments, LANs, and online events we have going on. NASL, IPL, MLG (twice), Dreamhack, IEM, TSL, Black Dragon League, Copenhagen games, Assembly, etc, not to mention tons of weekly online tournaments, all in one year. By comparison Korea has GSL, GSTL, and GSL world tournament.....and that's it. Outside of GOMtv theres almost nothing going on. It's been a persistant complaint by Koreans and foreigners considering travelling to Korea that there is very little activity outside of the GSL. Lol you do realize the viewer count is from GOMTV.COM not GOMTV.NET? 760,000 view is purely from Korean Viewers. Gomtv.net's count is 720,000. Pure Korean numbers are still higher than views from entire world outside of Korea. Also BW technically only has 3 tournaments- OSL/MSL/Proleague (Oh and courage I guess). It isn't about the number of tournaments; it is about sustainability and quality, of which Western scene hasn't proved yet. WC3 was huge too when it first came out, now it has been abandoned at large. Also something to think about: Korea's SC2 scene is trying to move towards the Brood war model, which is corporations sponsoring each teams resulting in players recieving salaries instead of relying heavily on prize money the way they do in the foreigner scene. This in long term is going to be much more sustainable than prize money grabbing. And in that regard it's failing. Sc2 in Korea has failed the attract the big sponsors like brood war did. The only team that has found a sponsor like that is IM with Coca-Cola. the rest of the teams can't even afford to send a player abroad without GOM's volition. It sure is still doing as well as, if not better, than the entire foreign scene.
Yep GSL still gets like 400k views for the finals on live stream alone not to mention the hundreds of thousands of views the Vods get afterwards, and you have to pay to view those Vods so all those people have given 10 dollars to GOM.
Nasl gets 10-15k views and i havent seen a tournament get over 60k and that was the TSL finals, wich is a weekend league . GSL has been getting better and better and is gradually getting more viewers from korea and fromm the west. Most teams in korea have sponsors, i know prime is still having troubles, but slayers has razer intel and tons of others. TSL sponsors give their players very reasonable salaries on top of their gsl salary. Just because GSL isnt doing as well as brood war yet, in no ways means it is failing =/
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Also another thing i noticed your tournament roundup analyisis is completely skewed, No player is ever going to win all the events in the tournament round up so no player has a chance to get 19k or even a 10th of that id say, and alot of that money comes fromm big foreign tournaments that koreans have participated in. If you took those same numbers in korea for a 2 week period, there is a gsl just a little over every month and a half, so you divide the prize pool 130,000 by 3 maybe 3 and a half and that number is far greater than 19,000 plus koreans are participating in foreign tournaments such as IEM dreamhack TSL and now MLG. So they are possibly taking a piece of that 19,000.
When those bigger tournaments with large prize pools havent happened during a 2 week period i rarely see the "top dog" having won more than 2,000. Thats 1 player, while 16 players in code s who didnt have to play nearly as much have just made 1400. I really dont see where you were going with that one to be honest.
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I would like to point out one other thing, related to some people's idea of slave labour. I'm going to assume there are a lot of people here working and quite a few of them love what they do. Starting from this and my own experience I'm going to say yes, there are things about jobs you love that you don't really like, menial, repetitive tasks (for me it's writing docs, reports for my managers, implementing stuff that requires no thinking but tons of lines of code).
But all this is normal, it can't all be heaven. On the other hand, because I love what I do and where I work I would be willing to put in 16 hour days for as long as my health could support it if need be.
This is why I completely disagree with anyone complaining about slave labour. If you love what you're doing you're going to be willing to sacrifice a lot for your love as long as it is satisfying. If you go on thinking that working to get better is slavery you're gonna have a pretty big surprise when you get a job where you might have to work for no benefit at all except money.
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I must say GOM seems to be very accommodating to foreigners. Many things are beyond their control. Sure you must stay in Korea for a long period of time if you make it into code A but at least you have a steady chance at making good money if you work yourself into code S. For MLG the cost of just being in America for a few days for a foreigner is quite high and almost nullifies the prize winnings. If someone is excellent at Starcraft 2, Korea would likely be a fine place for them to go to. The best of the best in the world will make money over there even if there are many costs that are expected with living in a foreign country. To ask more from Korea is a bit ridiculous honestly. We barely have anything set in place to help Koreans if they ever wanted to move here for Starcraft 2. Until we give much better accommodations it's hypocritical to say Korea isn't doing enough for foreigners. I recall NASL actively limiting Korean participation and IPL season 1 didn't even have a single foreigner...
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On May 26 2011 18:57 Imperfect1987 wrote:
I must say GOM seems to be very accommodating to foreigners. Many things are beyond their control. Sure you must stay in Korea for a long period of time if you make it into code A but at least you have a steady chance at making good money if you work yourself into code S. For MLG the cost of just being in America for a few days for a foreigner is quite high and almost nullifies the prize winnings. If someone is excellent at Starcraft 2, Korea would likely be a fine place for them to go to. The best of the best in the world will make money over there even if there are many costs that are expected with living in a foreign country. To ask more from Korea is a bit ridiculous honestly. We barely have anything set in place to help Koreans if they ever wanted to move here for Starcraft 2. Until we give much better accommodations it's hypocritical to say Korea isn't doing enough for foreigners. I recall NASL actively limiting Korean participation and IPL season 1 didn't even have a single foreigner...
With the new format change, code a is alot better, say you get top 4 in MLG and get a spot in code a, you go to korea, and within 4-5 days you will either be knocked out or in the up and down matches (at wich point its obviously worth it to stick around ) because now the round of 32 and round of 16 happen over a period of 4-5 days depending on your group. So if you dont make it past the round of 16 you can choose to pack up and go home. And the MLG exchange program is all expenses paid, so you will not lose anything financially by going and trying out code a and you wont miss out on much in the foreign scene , if you make it to the up and down matches you stay there for an extra 2 weeks at most and then if you make it into code s its obviously worth it to stick around indefinetly. The new format makes it very appealing to go and try to get to the up and down matches especially for MLG top 4 as everything is paid for and you will know weather yoou made it in a relatively short period of time
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so many flaw in the article, but this probably the biggest one
With major LAN tournaments outside of Korea such as the MLG, conflicting dates become a huge issue. For instance, the GSL World Championships were held right through MLG Dallas. This left FnaticMSI players TT1 and SEn unable to compete in MLG due to being in Korea.
If money really is the issue then Sen got $2700 and TT1 get $4500 in GSL WC. Probably more than what they would earn in MLG Dallas with Naniwa rotflstomping everyone
Also the korean that are not from Seoul are also leaving everything behind to live in the pro-house but I dont hear them crying
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On May 26 2011 12:52 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 12:29 HolyArrow wrote:On May 26 2011 10:27 fams wrote:On May 26 2011 09:20 NHY wrote:On May 25 2011 21:49 fams wrote:
Let me clarify, I am not saying that GomTV has done a piss poor job, in fact, they have done a marvelous job and I am very thankful for what they have done for the international eSports scene. So I apologize that the title is hostile towards Koreans and makes it out to be their fault only - which it is not.
I feel that people just need to see where everyone else is coming from, and the various perspectives from the different regions. Recently, (especially after reading the GSL Commentator comments) it feels as though Korea was shocked that there are so few foreigners, I was just trying to point out why, and make a note that there needs to be increased communication from all parties involved in order to keep moving forward like we have been.
Seeing how much difficulty you have in getting your point across in this thread, someone needs to work on their communication skills. Or maybe its simply my opinion, and this is a column not a paper that belongs in an academic review. Lighten up dude...this is simply the way I see things, based on the information I have gathered from personal experiences, professional gamers and managers. Not everyone agrees with me, thats great, I'm not asking people to. I had a 30 minute conversation with Spunky, the manager of oGs about this topic and he made incredibly valid points that went against what I said. All in all, I stand by what I wrote. People can agree, disagree, flame, or not even read it properly and comment all they want. There are plenty of solutions and perspectives to be heard when it comes to bridging the gaps between regions. I just spoke from my perspective - and a few other peoples - on some of the recent problems that have made headlines recently. Okay, wait a minute. So you post an opinion, and then you admit that Spunky made some incredibly valid points that go against your opinion. Yet, you show no change to your opinion. ... What? I thought any credible, well-informed opinion would drastically change if the one holding that opinion heard some "incredibly valid points" going against that opinion. If you don't change your opinion with the introduction of some valid arguments against it, that's what I would call willful ignorance. And that's terrible. Even more, you ignore addressing any specific points made against certain parts of your argument, even though the general consensus of the thread indicates that those points are pretty damn valid points. Instead, you just put a blanket disclaimer above your original post that does nothing to specifically address any of the points that make your points look ill-informed. Lastly, I have a huge concern over the lack of responsibility you perceive yourself to have. What I mean by this is that you don't seem to think your article is a big deal, and thus, people need to "lighten up", as you say. I feel like you're not aware of the spotlight set upon your article. You're posting in the "Featured" section of one of the most prominent foreign SC2 Professional teams. What makes you think it was okay to make your article so heavy-handed that nearly every response in this topic was negative? You title your article "It's time for Korea to start to pay attention to the West", and you go on to post a ton of grievances that Korea can hardly do anything about or have no obligation to do anything about (cultural assimilation, communication, sponsorships, and more). What do you think that would look like to a Korean reader who wants to know what the foreign e-Sports scene is talking about? Bottom line: It looks terrible. It looks like an ugly example of baseless entitlement. You've made it clear that it wasn't your intention for it to look that way, but judging from almost all the responses in this thread, and my personal opinion, that's exactly how it looks. You have a responsibility to present the article that would do well from a PR standpoint with Korea, and in that sense, it seems that you have pretty much failed. I wouldn't be so harsh if it weren't for the fact that you don't even seem to care that much about the responses here. You just took all of our points (and the oGs managers points as well), ignored then, raised your hands in a gesture of surrender, and said, "Hey guys, this is only my opinion - this is simply how I feel about things." That's great, but it seems like your opinion should have been altered by what Spunky said, and by the points other users in this topic have made as well. And if your opinion wasn't altered, you need to explain why the various points made here hold no water. Furthermore, you seem to have acknowledged that your article is being misinterpreted by many, but you have taken no action to help improve the heavy-handedness of your article on the fnatic website, instead, opting to essentially say, "This is my opinion. It's just how I feel. Now leave me alone." People have pointed out many deficiencies in your article, such as heavy-handedness, and an unclear purpose in how it states many problems and proposes no solutions. I feel that you have a responsibility to fix those problems, since you've posted the article in a pretty high-profile spot on a prominent e-Sports team's website. TL;DR: You're hiding behind the "it's my opinion" defense to absolve yourself of the responsibility of modifying the original article, and also to absolve yourself of the responsibility to evaluate the good points people have made here. The fact that you even disallowed Spunky's arguments, which you call "incredibly valid", from altering your opinion, clearly says to me that you're just being stubborn. Dude while I don't agree with the OP, you sound like a judge lecturing a criminal he's about to sentence.
Sorry, I don't see the point in sugar-coating things in situations like this. OP is in a clear position of responsibility as a writer on a prominent foreign e-Sports team website, and he just wrote an article that, if I was a Korean, would likely give me a terrible impression of the foreign e-Sports scene (while, ironically, the article attempts to call for better communication between the two scenes for better mutual understanding to facilitate the foreign/Korean scenes getting along and working together. Writing a really heavy-handed piece that is easily interpreted as a big show of baseless entitlement isn't fostering good communication at all)
I know I am not alone in such an interpretation of the article, since a majority of users in this topic seem to have gleaned the same message from this article. Don't get me wrong; I am aware that the author likely wrote this article with good intentions, but good intentions can only go so far when the article is presented in such a misleading way that most people take away the completely wrong message from it.
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Korean teams are professional. The vast majority of foreigners ... isn't.
I think it's more the other way around. What western progamers should learn from koreans.
- Living together, practice together.
- Practice a shitload. And then some.
- Have a professional coach to help analyze games, weaknesses in your game and opponents, help you prepare for specific matchups, etc.
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i'm getting so sick of these stupid articles on TL these days.
korea has no obligation to give foreigners free seeds, luxury apartments, free travel expenses etc.
AND
neither do foreign tournaments have the same obligation towards korean and other foreign players.
can you stop bitching? god fucking damn.
it's really amusing how now that unlike sc1, since foreigners are closer to koreans in sc2 level (because the game is more volatile, or foreigners actually better than before, or a combination, or whatever), there's all this talk about how korea is no longer the mecca of esports and that the west > korea because it's easier for foreign pros to making a living abroad now.
whether or not that's true, that's your opinion. but if you really think the west > korea in esports now, then stop bitching about the gsl and go enjoy your mlg, nasl, etc.
these ops are hella provoking and TL mods are going to fucking to put this in the spotlight section of the main page only to continue spitting on korea's image for something gomtv has no obligation to do.
i'm going to remember you fams.
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this is really bad attitude, how can you ask us to cooperate when ppl like these make thse kinds of articles that make us out to be assholes? im glad that the majority of the ppl in TL arent like this.
i woulda thought that if one were to dedicate life to starcraft he would have learned the korean language. after all, korea is the current major hot spot in the sc2 scene.
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On May 26 2011 17:04 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 14:31 Ocedic wrote:On May 26 2011 14:14 Rabiator wrote:On May 26 2011 14:00 Ocedic wrote:On May 26 2011 13:55 Rabiator wrote:
IMO there is a lot of "Korea worshipping" here.
There are good reasons for not moving to Korea and any discussion about "SC2 is bigger outside of Korea" is moot, because you can get results either way depending upon which criteria you proclaim to be valid / important. The fact remains that SC2 as an eSport HAS TO work outside Korea and total focus on that nation would be really bad. The point of a Sport is to be entertaining and you can be entertained by western pros in western tournaments, in fact I would argue that the "dramatic arc" for the western weekend LAN tournaments is much better than that of the Korean monthly ones.
The demeaning comments directed at Xeris and fams are totally uncalled for IMO, they try to make a point and to start a discussion - which might enlighten us and improve the situation. Sounds like you didn't read peoples' posts in depth. Nor did you respond to any points that people have made (neither has Xeris/fams.) So how does pointing out that "things like culture acclimation/time zone differences/etc are far beyond the control of GOM" constitute as Korea worshiping? Pretty sure it's not the responsibility of ANY league in ANY country, even though GOM actually goes above and beyond the normal call of duty to accommodate Western players (see: player housing.) Also you say try and start a discussion, yet like I pointed out, fams/Xeris and their defenders such as yourself have yet to respond to a single point made by rational thinkers in this thread. They rely on their clout to spread their opinion without having to defend themselves, because ultimately they know that their message will reach more people. That's not a discussion. It's propaganda. Sure, if you flat out deny any argument as invalid it is propaganda and not a discussion. The fact remains that GOM doesnt have weekend tournaments to get foreigners there for short vacations yet; it is only the western scene which has these and invites the Koreans over. The fact remains that you have to live in bunk beds crammed in with other sardines and this isnt really for everyone. The fact also remains that there is this myth that talent and skill can only develop in Korea, which is totally untrue. Once again, what does that have to do with GOM? Space is tight and housing is expensive in Asia. Are you saying GOM is not doing enough because they aren't booking 5 star hotels for foreigners? And the nature of GOM is long tournaments. That's who they are. It would be equally ridiculous for me to say MLG doesn't cater to the viewer because it doesn't provide perpetual content like GOM does. See how dumb that sounds? Also, I don't deny any argument as invalid. We countered them (read most posts in this thread; a lot of them have addressed every single fallacy in their posts.) 1. You sure deny arguments as "meaningless analogies". 2. I am not saying GOM is responsible for the culture and living conditions in Korea. 3. Why cant GOM make a weekend / weekly tournament? Your argument that its not their style is simply nonsense. They can do whatever they want to do with their viewing broadcasting time and spicing it up with different formats might be a good thing. I for one would love to see Koreans without a week to prepare for their next opponent and it is just such a thing which creates exciting games in the GSTL (which funnily only lasts a week which you said wasnt in their nature).
1. You sure deny my arguments as 'argument denying.' If that's what you want to call countering your points with rational thinking and logic, then sure. I used the term meaningless analogies then explained WHY, which you failed to address. How is the situation in Korea like the German team situation at all? I don't want to repeat myself but it looks like I'll have to, since you failed to address my original point:
People who go to play in Korea are not 'playing for team Korea.' This isn't a matter of stacking all the best players on one team. It's closer to the football analogy someone used about Brazilian and Argentinian players going to Europe to play in their leagues, because the leagues in Europe are simply bigger. There is no 'European problem.' What would you say if I arbitrarily argued that Europe is not accommodating enough to the South American teams?
2. Then why are you bringing them up? If no one is 'responsible' why is that part of your argument at all?
3. Um, I didn't feel I had to give a history lesson but I guess you are not familiar with Brood War? What is so hard to understand that the premiere StarCraft 2 league is following the model of the premiere StarCraft 1 league that was and CONTINUES to be the most successful esports league in the history of gaming?
Also, as others have pointed out in the thread, Code A has been made much more accessible to foreign players and you don't have to stay in the country for an extended period of time to get your results.
If you're going to continue using logical fallacies to debate with me, I'm not even going to bother responding. You ignore 80% of my points and cherry pick strawman arguments.
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On May 26 2011 14:14 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 14:00 Ocedic wrote:On May 26 2011 13:55 Rabiator wrote:
IMO there is a lot of "Korea worshipping" here.
There are good reasons for not moving to Korea and any discussion about "SC2 is bigger outside of Korea" is moot, because you can get results either way depending upon which criteria you proclaim to be valid / important. The fact remains that SC2 as an eSport HAS TO work outside Korea and total focus on that nation would be really bad. The point of a Sport is to be entertaining and you can be entertained by western pros in western tournaments, in fact I would argue that the "dramatic arc" for the western weekend LAN tournaments is much better than that of the Korean monthly ones.
The demeaning comments directed at Xeris and fams are totally uncalled for IMO, they try to make a point and to start a discussion - which might enlighten us and improve the situation. Sounds like you didn't read peoples' posts in depth. Nor did you respond to any points that people have made (neither has Xeris/fams.) So how does pointing out that "things like culture acclimation/time zone differences/etc are far beyond the control of GOM" constitute as Korea worshiping? Pretty sure it's not the responsibility of ANY league in ANY country, even though GOM actually goes above and beyond the normal call of duty to accommodate Western players (see: player housing.) Also you say try and start a discussion, yet like I pointed out, fams/Xeris and their defenders such as yourself have yet to respond to a single point made by rational thinkers in this thread. They rely on their clout to spread their opinion without having to defend themselves, because ultimately they know that their message will reach more people. That's not a discussion. It's propaganda. Sure, if you flat out deny any argument as invalid it is propaganda and not a discussion. The fact remains that GOM doesnt have weekend tournaments to get foreigners there for short vacations yet; it is only the western scene which has these and invites the Koreans over. The fact remains that you have to live in bunk beds crammed in with other sardines and this isnt really for everyone. The fact also remains that there is this myth that talent and skill can only develop in Korea, which is totally untrue. I really hope the best western pros DONT all move into Korea, because that would be the same as Bayern Munich in the german Bundesliga. They have the most money and whenever there is a promising player coming up in a smaller team they buy him up to sit on their bench. It sure creates a boring league if it is the same team which wins most of the time and I personally hate winning-team-joiners which many of the fans of that club are. Such a development would seriously hurt SC2 as an eSport in the west ... Different ways of looking at things is GOOD and thus the "you must go to Korea to become great"-Korea-worshipping is a bad thing IMO. Its the same in biology - monocultures are weak against insects -, politics - one-party-systems are blind to aspects of life - and cultures - having a diverse number of cultures to choose from is much preferable to only being able to choose between shitty McDonalds or Burger King burgers. Having lots of different points of view is GOOD and the fledgling team houses in the west are a step in the right direction from this "you must go to Korea" nonsense.
You really have very dark colored glasses on your eyes. Your whole post is a straw man fallacy, which I think you sincerely believe, which makes it even more sadder. I don’t want to commit a fallacy of my own and say the four letter N word, but that’s what you remind me of with this post.
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EPT
