|
On May 26 2011 17:33 Nayl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 16:57 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 26 2011 13:24 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 13:15 starcraft911 wrote:I agree that the cost of moving out of country are huge. Even if I won every GSL I'd still make less than I do now unless I could get some kind of sponsorship or my own line of keyboards or something which would never happen. Additionally, I like many things about the area I live in... I have my own boat that I can go out on the river and fish. I don't know much about korean fishing, but the stuff I do away from sc2 would be difficult for me to move so even an attempt to try and go pro isn't worth it for me and I think a lot of people are in similar situations. It might be hard to believe for you guys, but SC2 in Korea is AT THE VERY LEAST, comparable in size to the rest of the world. Except we're measuring the size in prize $$$ not viewer count. The only people who are directly impacted by viewer count are the hosts and anyone hold an ad slot. I hate this attitude of "Oh I can make more money if I stay". realistically, who becomes Pro gamer to make lots of money? If that is your goal in becoming SC2 pro, then you should stop and go do something else more productive. It happens that in the world of progaming, money will naturally come if you are skilled. If you refuse a sure method of getting better (i.e. moving to Korea) just because it nets you little money in short term, then it will be hard for people in foreign scene to really succeed in SC2 in long term. If you really do love playing this game, why not give it all and try rather than try to make few quick buck that isn't going to sustainable anyways? Of course progaming is about making money, its a profession. You go where you have the chance at a better salary and more prize money I can't see how that isn't obvious. Idyllic aspirations take a back seat when you need to support yourself and pay your bills. Going to Korea you're playing in 1 tournament while being completely secluded from other foreign events. Bad latency also means you won't be playing your best in online tournaments either, Also why is it assumed moving to Korea will just immediately make you better? What exactly is there in Korea that's gonna help you out? As far as I know liquid is the only foreign team with a practice house in Korea, where their members will receive quality practice partners. What would any other foreigner do in Korea? With a language barrier you're not going to get many productive practice partners, which basically means you're coming to a new country to play on the Korean ladder and a few GSL games. Do you really think that's worth it? Plus under GOM's initiative more Koreans are starting to attend foreign events and that number will hopefully increase along with the general skill of foreign gamers. Becoming a progamer to make money is not a realistic goal I think almost everyone can agree on. Most progamers I'd think play this game because they love playing this game. So in that sense, the job isn't necessarily focused on making money yet. Of course you are going to improve in Korea. Even if you are not in a pro house, the Korean ladder itself has much more higher quality than Europe or NA; and really, playing Korean ladder from outside of Korea is not really optimal. Playing in GSL itself should be a huge experience; a good chance to get used to the big stage. Sure you aren't going to win right away, but did you think Jinro/TLO/Huk thought they could take a GSL title straight away? Heavens forbid you have to work for something. Gap will only widen if current trend continues. Once SC2's prohouses become more structured the way SC1's work, they'll just pull way ahead of everyone else since they would be practicing only with themselves; exposure to Korean in a few tournaments will not improve the foreign scene. BW we had WCG, and foreign scene was leagues below the Korean scene. Chances are scene outside of Korea may very well shrivel up after the initial heat, if we don't keep up with the Korean scene. Foreign pro houses are step in the right direction but it will be very difficult to establish such things when people are picky and the funds are limited. It's not even about foreign players moving to Korea. It's about whether non-korean progamers are willing to all-in their life in this game the way Koreans are willing to do.
Tournaments are a great experience, yes, but no1 really practices from tournaments or ladder. No pros take ladder very seriously, and most say their actual practice comes from custom games. You game, discuss, and review with practice partners, and use the ladder for fun or for mass games but not such a productive way (relatively speaking). At least that's what I've heard from Idra on state of the game. Playing in a more competitive ladder is good but it won't be worth the sacrifice without teammates and practice partners to go over builds, replays, discuss games, etc. That's why Ret left Korea and considered it a waste of time after he spent time on the Estro team; with a language barrier he said there was nobody to practice with other than massing games on iccup. Apparently very few pros will use the ladder for serious practice, and the euro ladder (which you can still play from NA) is strong enough to fulfill its purpose in this regard. As an example, Idra left Korea and is now practicing in a team house with EG members and his play hasn't slipped at all, if anything it's gotten better.
When Jinro and Huk left to Korea they knew they would be in a pro house getting lots of practice with their teammates as well as OGS players like MC, Ensnare, Top, Zenio, etc. It's just not worth going if all you're going to be doing for practice is massing games by yourself in a foreign environment with a foreign language. Even then, I'm sure some people would go for the ambition if it was still possible to participate in foreign online stuff, but it's not with the lag.
I do agree with your last point though, the reason Korea pulled so far ahead in Brood War is because they had the infrastructure to create hundreds of players practicing day in day out, and Korean culture seems to promote a harder work ethic, which translates directly into being good at things like starcraft. Again, to use the example of Idra, the reason the guy is so good and was able to compete with the best in Korea and consistently make code S is because he has such an amazing work ethic and dedication to the game.
|
These threads are terrible and im kind of distraught that "the problem with korea" post by xeris got put in the spotlight section, that needs to be taken down, its outdated and xeris has made so many invalid points.
Anyone know whatsup with Fnatic? why are they so anti korea there have been 2 quite appauling negative whiney posts about korea, from people within the Fnatic organization , that and TT1 sending a fairly embarassing letter to be translated on playxp although TT1's was alot less offensive then these 2 have been i still found it a bit odd. Koreans must be getting a really bad impression about the foreign scene if they are reading any of these articles. If you dont like the GSL dont go, but dont complain that Gom isnt doing enough for foreigners they have done more then any other esports organization so far to try and incorporate foreigners into their scene. Anyone can qualify for code a, they have a foreigner house you can stay at, they have teamed up with a north american tournament to help get more foreigners over to korea all expenses paid, they have changed their format to be more appealing to foreigners. What more do you fucking want? should any foreigner who goes there just be automatically be awarded a spot in code s. Honestly when they did code a seeds before foreigners just got owned aside from 1 exception (huk). Also i have heard quite a few korean pro's saying they have spent time at the foreigner house practicing with foreigners obviously gom is trying to accomodate their practicing needs as best they can, and im sure if you made friends with huk and jinro they would beable to help you find practice partners along with tasteless artosis john, you still have tons of ways to interact with gom to see if they can accomodate you, i dont think the language barrier is a huge deal, Tasteless and artosis have lived their for years and loved it, idra has said many times that he would have continued to live in korea if their were more tournament there and he didnt have a team of practice partners and he performed quite well. (thats his choice i still think korea is the right place for certain foreigners)
All these arguments seem to have relatively easy solutions/ just seem like whining, I doubt xeris or Fams have ever even been to korea, and TT1 was there for a week that isnt really enough time to make a good assesment of korea.
|
On May 26 2011 20:05 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 17:33 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 16:57 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 26 2011 13:24 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 13:15 starcraft911 wrote:I agree that the cost of moving out of country are huge. Even if I won every GSL I'd still make less than I do now unless I could get some kind of sponsorship or my own line of keyboards or something which would never happen. Additionally, I like many things about the area I live in... I have my own boat that I can go out on the river and fish. I don't know much about korean fishing, but the stuff I do away from sc2 would be difficult for me to move so even an attempt to try and go pro isn't worth it for me and I think a lot of people are in similar situations. It might be hard to believe for you guys, but SC2 in Korea is AT THE VERY LEAST, comparable in size to the rest of the world. Except we're measuring the size in prize $$$ not viewer count. The only people who are directly impacted by viewer count are the hosts and anyone hold an ad slot. I hate this attitude of "Oh I can make more money if I stay". realistically, who becomes Pro gamer to make lots of money? If that is your goal in becoming SC2 pro, then you should stop and go do something else more productive. It happens that in the world of progaming, money will naturally come if you are skilled. If you refuse a sure method of getting better (i.e. moving to Korea) just because it nets you little money in short term, then it will be hard for people in foreign scene to really succeed in SC2 in long term. If you really do love playing this game, why not give it all and try rather than try to make few quick buck that isn't going to sustainable anyways? Of course progaming is about making money, its a profession. You go where you have the chance at a better salary and more prize money I can't see how that isn't obvious. Idyllic aspirations take a back seat when you need to support yourself and pay your bills. Going to Korea you're playing in 1 tournament while being completely secluded from other foreign events. Bad latency also means you won't be playing your best in online tournaments either, Also why is it assumed moving to Korea will just immediately make you better? What exactly is there in Korea that's gonna help you out? As far as I know liquid is the only foreign team with a practice house in Korea, where their members will receive quality practice partners. What would any other foreigner do in Korea? With a language barrier you're not going to get many productive practice partners, which basically means you're coming to a new country to play on the Korean ladder and a few GSL games. Do you really think that's worth it? Plus under GOM's initiative more Koreans are starting to attend foreign events and that number will hopefully increase along with the general skill of foreign gamers. Becoming a progamer to make money is not a realistic goal I think almost everyone can agree on. Most progamers I'd think play this game because they love playing this game. So in that sense, the job isn't necessarily focused on making money yet. Of course you are going to improve in Korea. Even if you are not in a pro house, the Korean ladder itself has much more higher quality than Europe or NA; and really, playing Korean ladder from outside of Korea is not really optimal. Playing in GSL itself should be a huge experience; a good chance to get used to the big stage. Sure you aren't going to win right away, but did you think Jinro/TLO/Huk thought they could take a GSL title straight away? Heavens forbid you have to work for something. Gap will only widen if current trend continues. Once SC2's prohouses become more structured the way SC1's work, they'll just pull way ahead of everyone else since they would be practicing only with themselves; exposure to Korean in a few tournaments will not improve the foreign scene. BW we had WCG, and foreign scene was leagues below the Korean scene. Chances are scene outside of Korea may very well shrivel up after the initial heat, if we don't keep up with the Korean scene. Foreign pro houses are step in the right direction but it will be very difficult to establish such things when people are picky and the funds are limited. It's not even about foreign players moving to Korea. It's about whether non-korean progamers are willing to all-in their life in this game the way Koreans are willing to do. Tournaments are a great experience, yes, but no1 really practices from tournaments or ladder. No pros take ladder very seriously, and most say their actual practice comes from custom games. You game, discuss, and review with practice partners, and use the ladder for fun or for mass games but not such a productive way (relatively speaking). At least that's what I've heard from Idra on state of the game. Playing in a more competitive ladder is good but it won't be worth the sacrifice without teammates and practice partners to go over builds, replays, discuss games, etc. That's why Ret left Korea and considered it a waste of time after he spent time on the Estro team; with a language barrier he said there was nobody to practice with other than massing games on iccup. Apparently very few pros will use the ladder for serious practice, and the euro ladder (which you can still play from NA) is strong enough to fulfill its purpose in this regard. As an example, Idra left Korea and is now practicing in a team house with EG members and his play hasn't slipped at all, if anything it's gotten better. When Jinro and Huk left to Korea they knew they would be in a pro house getting lots of practice with their teammates as well as OGS players like MC, Ensnare, Top, Zenio, etc. It's just not worth going if all you're going to be doing for practice is massing games by yourself in a foreign environment with a foreign language. Even then, I'm sure some people would go for the ambition if it was still possible to participate in foreign online stuff, but it's not with the lag. I do agree with your last point though, the reason Korea pulled so far ahead in Brood War is because they had the infrastructure to create hundreds of players practicing day in day out, and Korean culture seems to promote a harder work ethic, which translates directly into being good at things like starcraft. Again, to use the example of Idra, the reason the guy is so good and was able to compete with the best in Korea and consistently make code S is because he has such an amazing work ethic and dedication to the game.
Most progamers are stilll in that situation on north america though ,they dont live in teamhouses and they have online practice partners. Playing the best players on the ladder isnt really that much different from having online practice partners, and alot pro's probably found their practice partners through the ladder for practice partners beyond their teammates. Also its not like if you are in korea you are going to be the only person in the foreign house, torch is there maybe he can help you out to get some ST practice partners, jinro and huk can help you, or maybe hook you up with a few players fromm OGS who are willing to help/ maybe you can help them too. You can ask gisado who i think lives in the foreigner house. If you take initiative while you are in korea, you could probably set up practicing sessions at the foreign house with pro's from different teams. Even if the koreans english isnt great alot of them do speak english to some extent. Also im pretty sure other foreigners will be there too through the MLG exchange program at any given time once that starts up, so you will have 4-5 practice partners + torch, without even having to take any initiative, that is pretty decent, and better than most playeres have it in NA in terms of offline practice partners they can interact with in between matches.
|
On May 26 2011 20:16 cheesemaster wrote:
These threads are terrible and im kind of distraught that "the problem with korea" post by xeris got put in the spotlight section, that needs to be taken down, its outdated and xeris has made so many invalid points.
Anyone know whatsup with Fnatic? why are they so anti korea there have been 2 quite appauling negative whiney posts about korea, from people within the Fnatic organization , that and TT1 sending a fairly embarassing letter to be translated on playxp although TT1's was alot less offensive then these 2 have been i still found it a bit odd. Koreans must be getting a really bad impression about the foreign scene if they are reading any of these articles. If you dont like the GSL dont go, but dont complain that Gom isnt doing enough for foreigners they have done more then any other esports organization so far to try and incorporate foreigners into their scene. Anyone can qualify for code a, they have a foreigner house you can stay at, they have teamed up with a north american tournament to help get more foreigners over to korea all expenses paid, they have changed their format to be more appealing to foreigners. What more do you fucking want? should any foreigner who goes there just be automatically be awarded a spot in code s. Honestly when they did code a seeds before foreigners just got owned aside from 1 exception (huk). Also i have heard quite a few korean pro's saying they have spent time at the foreigner house practicing with foreigners obviously gom is trying to accomodate their practicing needs as best they can, and im sure if you made friends with huk and jinro they would beable to help you find practice partners along with tasteless artosis john, you still have tons of ways to interact with gom to see if they can accomodate you, i dont think the language barrier is a huge deal, Tasteless and artosis have lived their for years and loved it, idra has said many times that he would have continued to live in korea if their were more tournament there and he didnt have a team of practice partners and he performed quite well. (thats his choice i still think korea is the right place for certain foreigners)
All these arguments seem to have relatively easy solutions/ just seem like whining, I doubt xeris or Fams have ever even been to korea, and TT1 was there for a week that isnt really enough time to make a good assesment of korea.
Agreed, I seriously hope GOM just writes off Fnatic as a joke instead of perceiving the foreign community as a whole as unreasonable, whiny children. Korea is obviously not for them, that's fine; doesn't mean they need to spam these posts trying to de-legitimize Korea for others. The fact that Team Liquid spotlighted his post with his logical fallacies and misinformation just makes me sad.
|
On May 26 2011 16:46 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 13:33 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 13:23 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 26 2011 13:08 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 26 2011 13:06 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 25 2011 22:10 Arceus wrote:All I see in this article is another complaint-fest. Gotta say it again that GOM is so kind, they did their best about it. They cover cost, change format, give undeserved invitations, provide housing etc Need else ? GOM sending MC/Nestea to foreigner house as practice partners ? and Now with the Western Starcraft 2 scene surpassing that of even Korea hell no Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea. Growing does not mean surpassing. In that context it did. He wasn't talking about it skill wise, or at least that's what I was assuming. On May 26 2011 13:14 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 13:06 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 25 2011 22:10 Arceus wrote:All I see in this article is another complaint-fest. Gotta say it again that GOM is so kind, they did their best about it. They cover cost, change format, give undeserved invitations, provide housing etc Need else ? GOM sending MC/Nestea to foreigner house as practice partners ? and Now with the Western Starcraft 2 scene surpassing that of even Korea hell no Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea. Please. There seems to be a trend in TL where they take "SC2 in Korea is not as big as expected" as SC2 has failed in Korea/West has bigger scene ect. SC2 is small in Korea RELATIVE to SC1 in Korea. GSTL May Finals got 760,000 view on VODs, neverminding all the live audience. Take that in for a second ok? 760,000 views. Have you seen any non korean SC2 content that generates that kind of view? We're talking about the entire world here, outside of Korea. It might be hard to believe for you guys, but SC2 in Korea is at the very least, comparable in size to the rest of the world. Lol but you do realize that a large portion of those views were from people outside Korea? I know I watched those games lol. Sc2 is not as big as expected is true, but it's also true that the foreign scene has been much more active. Look at the huge number of tournaments, LANs, and online events we have going on. NASL, IPL, MLG (twice), Dreamhack, IEM, TSL, Black Dragon League, Copenhagen games, Assembly, etc, not to mention tons of weekly online tournaments, all in one year. By comparison Korea has GSL, GSTL, and GSL world tournament.....and that's it. Outside of GOMtv theres almost nothing going on. It's been a persistant complaint by Koreans and foreigners considering travelling to Korea that there is very little activity outside of the GSL. Lol you do realize the viewer count is from GOMTV.COM not GOMTV.NET? 760,000 view is purely from Korean Viewers. Gomtv.net's count is 720,000. Pure Korean numbers are still higher than views from entire world outside of Korea. Also BW technically only has 3 tournaments- OSL/MSL/Proleague (Oh and courage I guess). It isn't about the number of tournaments; it is about sustainability and quality, of which Western scene hasn't proved yet. WC3 was huge too when it first came out, now it has been abandoned at large. Also something to think about: Korea's SC2 scene is trying to move towards the Brood war model, which is corporations sponsoring each teams resulting in players recieving salaries instead of relying heavily on prize money the way they do in the foreigner scene. This in long term is going to be much more sustainable than prize money grabbing. And in that regard it's failing. Sc2 in Korea has failed the attract the big sponsors like brood war did. The only team that has found a sponsor like that is IM with Coca-Cola. the rest of the teams can't even afford to send a player abroad without GOM's volition.
You just keep being wrong and more wrong.
TSL, Startales, Slayers, IM all have sponsors. In fact, each of these teams have major KOREAN sponsors, not just GSkill (TSL), Razer (Slayers), Coca Cola (IM), Zowie (Startales), etc.
ST sends Ace regularly. Boxer also travels regularly. MC has gone to so many tournaments outside of Korea that he got worn out.
|
On May 26 2011 20:48 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 16:46 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 26 2011 13:33 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 13:23 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 26 2011 13:08 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 26 2011 13:06 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 25 2011 22:10 Arceus wrote:All I see in this article is another complaint-fest. Gotta say it again that GOM is so kind, they did their best about it. They cover cost, change format, give undeserved invitations, provide housing etc Need else ? GOM sending MC/Nestea to foreigner house as practice partners ? and Now with the Western Starcraft 2 scene surpassing that of even Korea hell no Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea. Growing does not mean surpassing. In that context it did. He wasn't talking about it skill wise, or at least that's what I was assuming. On May 26 2011 13:14 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 13:06 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 25 2011 22:10 Arceus wrote:All I see in this article is another complaint-fest. Gotta say it again that GOM is so kind, they did their best about it. They cover cost, change format, give undeserved invitations, provide housing etc Need else ? GOM sending MC/Nestea to foreigner house as practice partners ? and Now with the Western Starcraft 2 scene surpassing that of even Korea hell no Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea. Please. There seems to be a trend in TL where they take "SC2 in Korea is not as big as expected" as SC2 has failed in Korea/West has bigger scene ect. SC2 is small in Korea RELATIVE to SC1 in Korea. GSTL May Finals got 760,000 view on VODs, neverminding all the live audience. Take that in for a second ok? 760,000 views. Have you seen any non korean SC2 content that generates that kind of view? We're talking about the entire world here, outside of Korea. It might be hard to believe for you guys, but SC2 in Korea is at the very least, comparable in size to the rest of the world. Lol but you do realize that a large portion of those views were from people outside Korea? I know I watched those games lol. Sc2 is not as big as expected is true, but it's also true that the foreign scene has been much more active. Look at the huge number of tournaments, LANs, and online events we have going on. NASL, IPL, MLG (twice), Dreamhack, IEM, TSL, Black Dragon League, Copenhagen games, Assembly, etc, not to mention tons of weekly online tournaments, all in one year. By comparison Korea has GSL, GSTL, and GSL world tournament.....and that's it. Outside of GOMtv theres almost nothing going on. It's been a persistant complaint by Koreans and foreigners considering travelling to Korea that there is very little activity outside of the GSL. Lol you do realize the viewer count is from GOMTV.COM not GOMTV.NET? 760,000 view is purely from Korean Viewers. Gomtv.net's count is 720,000. Pure Korean numbers are still higher than views from entire world outside of Korea. Also BW technically only has 3 tournaments- OSL/MSL/Proleague (Oh and courage I guess). It isn't about the number of tournaments; it is about sustainability and quality, of which Western scene hasn't proved yet. WC3 was huge too when it first came out, now it has been abandoned at large. Also something to think about: Korea's SC2 scene is trying to move towards the Brood war model, which is corporations sponsoring each teams resulting in players recieving salaries instead of relying heavily on prize money the way they do in the foreigner scene. This in long term is going to be much more sustainable than prize money grabbing. And in that regard it's failing. Sc2 in Korea has failed the attract the big sponsors like brood war did. The only team that has found a sponsor like that is IM with Coca-Cola. the rest of the teams can't even afford to send a player abroad without GOM's volition. You just keep being wrong and more wrong. TSL, Startales, Slayers, IM all have sponsors. In fact, each of these teams have major KOREAN sponsors, not just GSkill (TSL), Razer (Slayers), Coca Cola (IM), Zowie (Startales), etc. ST sends Ace regularly. Boxer also travels regularly. MC has gone to so many tournaments outside of Korea that he got worn out.
My bad then, but I'm still gonna argue starcraft 2 outside of Korea is growing more than sc2 in korea.
|
On May 26 2011 21:17 TheSubtleArt wrote:
My bad then, but I'm still gonna argue starcraft 2 outside of Korea is growing more than sc2 in korea.
Yes and no. GSL is still by far the biggest SC2 event, nothing comes even remotely close to it. There are a lot more events all around the world, but then again, the world is a pretty big place. Also, Koreans had been pretty dominant in most large foreign tournaments, with some exceptions ofc - and they pretty much always play at a handicap there.
|
On May 26 2011 20:21 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 20:05 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 26 2011 17:33 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 16:57 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 26 2011 13:24 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 13:15 starcraft911 wrote:I agree that the cost of moving out of country are huge. Even if I won every GSL I'd still make less than I do now unless I could get some kind of sponsorship or my own line of keyboards or something which would never happen. Additionally, I like many things about the area I live in... I have my own boat that I can go out on the river and fish. I don't know much about korean fishing, but the stuff I do away from sc2 would be difficult for me to move so even an attempt to try and go pro isn't worth it for me and I think a lot of people are in similar situations. It might be hard to believe for you guys, but SC2 in Korea is AT THE VERY LEAST, comparable in size to the rest of the world. Except we're measuring the size in prize $$$ not viewer count. The only people who are directly impacted by viewer count are the hosts and anyone hold an ad slot. I hate this attitude of "Oh I can make more money if I stay". realistically, who becomes Pro gamer to make lots of money? If that is your goal in becoming SC2 pro, then you should stop and go do something else more productive. It happens that in the world of progaming, money will naturally come if you are skilled. If you refuse a sure method of getting better (i.e. moving to Korea) just because it nets you little money in short term, then it will be hard for people in foreign scene to really succeed in SC2 in long term. If you really do love playing this game, why not give it all and try rather than try to make few quick buck that isn't going to sustainable anyways? Of course progaming is about making money, its a profession. You go where you have the chance at a better salary and more prize money I can't see how that isn't obvious. Idyllic aspirations take a back seat when you need to support yourself and pay your bills. Going to Korea you're playing in 1 tournament while being completely secluded from other foreign events. Bad latency also means you won't be playing your best in online tournaments either, Also why is it assumed moving to Korea will just immediately make you better? What exactly is there in Korea that's gonna help you out? As far as I know liquid is the only foreign team with a practice house in Korea, where their members will receive quality practice partners. What would any other foreigner do in Korea? With a language barrier you're not going to get many productive practice partners, which basically means you're coming to a new country to play on the Korean ladder and a few GSL games. Do you really think that's worth it? Plus under GOM's initiative more Koreans are starting to attend foreign events and that number will hopefully increase along with the general skill of foreign gamers. Becoming a progamer to make money is not a realistic goal I think almost everyone can agree on. Most progamers I'd think play this game because they love playing this game. So in that sense, the job isn't necessarily focused on making money yet. Of course you are going to improve in Korea. Even if you are not in a pro house, the Korean ladder itself has much more higher quality than Europe or NA; and really, playing Korean ladder from outside of Korea is not really optimal. Playing in GSL itself should be a huge experience; a good chance to get used to the big stage. Sure you aren't going to win right away, but did you think Jinro/TLO/Huk thought they could take a GSL title straight away? Heavens forbid you have to work for something. Gap will only widen if current trend continues. Once SC2's prohouses become more structured the way SC1's work, they'll just pull way ahead of everyone else since they would be practicing only with themselves; exposure to Korean in a few tournaments will not improve the foreign scene. BW we had WCG, and foreign scene was leagues below the Korean scene. Chances are scene outside of Korea may very well shrivel up after the initial heat, if we don't keep up with the Korean scene. Foreign pro houses are step in the right direction but it will be very difficult to establish such things when people are picky and the funds are limited. It's not even about foreign players moving to Korea. It's about whether non-korean progamers are willing to all-in their life in this game the way Koreans are willing to do. Tournaments are a great experience, yes, but no1 really practices from tournaments or ladder. No pros take ladder very seriously, and most say their actual practice comes from custom games. You game, discuss, and review with practice partners, and use the ladder for fun or for mass games but not such a productive way (relatively speaking). At least that's what I've heard from Idra on state of the game. Playing in a more competitive ladder is good but it won't be worth the sacrifice without teammates and practice partners to go over builds, replays, discuss games, etc. That's why Ret left Korea and considered it a waste of time after he spent time on the Estro team; with a language barrier he said there was nobody to practice with other than massing games on iccup. Apparently very few pros will use the ladder for serious practice, and the euro ladder (which you can still play from NA) is strong enough to fulfill its purpose in this regard. As an example, Idra left Korea and is now practicing in a team house with EG members and his play hasn't slipped at all, if anything it's gotten better. When Jinro and Huk left to Korea they knew they would be in a pro house getting lots of practice with their teammates as well as OGS players like MC, Ensnare, Top, Zenio, etc. It's just not worth going if all you're going to be doing for practice is massing games by yourself in a foreign environment with a foreign language. Even then, I'm sure some people would go for the ambition if it was still possible to participate in foreign online stuff, but it's not with the lag. I do agree with your last point though, the reason Korea pulled so far ahead in Brood War is because they had the infrastructure to create hundreds of players practicing day in day out, and Korean culture seems to promote a harder work ethic, which translates directly into being good at things like starcraft. Again, to use the example of Idra, the reason the guy is so good and was able to compete with the best in Korea and consistently make code S is because he has such an amazing work ethic and dedication to the game. Most progamers are stilll in that situation on north america though ,they dont live in teamhouses and they have online practice partners. Playing the best players on the ladder isnt really that much different from having online practice partners, and alot pro's probably found their practice partners through the ladder for practice partners beyond their teammates. Also its not like if you are in korea you are going to be the only person in the foreign house, torch is there maybe he can help you out to get some ST practice partners, jinro and huk can help you, or maybe hook you up with a few players fromm OGS who are willing to help/ maybe you can help them too. You can ask gisado who i think lives in the foreigner house. If you take initiative while you are in korea, you could probably set up practicing sessions at the foreign house with pro's from different teams. Even if the koreans english isnt great alot of them do speak english to some extent. Also im pretty sure other foreigners will be there too through the MLG exchange program at any given time once that starts up, so you will have 4-5 practice partners + torch, without even having to take any initiative, that is pretty decent, and better than most playeres have it in NA in terms of offline practice partners they can interact with in between matches.
So you're saying practice on the ladder is just as good as practice with people you can directly interact with? And then you're just assuming people in Korea are going to take you under their wing and help you out while sacrificing their own schedule? It doesn't work like that, I don't really know how many Korean players would compromise their own practice to help out a guy they can't even talk to. Ret was on the estro team and he said none of his own teammates were willing to help him out...none....because it wouldn't benefit them in any noticable way to practice with a guy they can't communicate with. Sure you'll find a few people to help you but is it really worth moving to another country with a foreign language, leaving your gf / wife / friends and own home and privacy just to play on the Korean ladder and 3 foreigners in Korea? If you have that kind of initiative then you probably have the initiative to arrange as much practice with people in your own territory. Even then, some people would still go for the opportunity to play in the GSL but the deal breaker is that with the latency you're either not going to preform in foreign tournaments or preform at a way lower level. Idra's doing well in NASL, EG master's cup, won IPL, and travelling to tournaments like MLG with much less hassle, compared to his time in Korea where he played in GSL and almost nothing else.
|
On May 26 2011 21:27 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 21:17 TheSubtleArt wrote:
My bad then, but I'm still gonna argue starcraft 2 outside of Korea is growing more than sc2 in korea.
Yes and no. GSL is still by far the biggest SC2 event, nothing comes even remotely close to it. There are a lot more events all around the world, but then again, the world is a pretty big place. Also, Koreans had been pretty dominant in most large foreign tournaments, with some exceptions ofc - and they pretty much always play at a handicap there.
Yea, GSL is definitely the most competitive tournament there's no arguing that atm.
On May 26 2011 20:16 cheesemaster wrote:
These threads are terrible and im kind of distraught that "the problem with korea" post by xeris got put in the spotlight section, that needs to be taken down, its outdated and xeris has made so many invalid points.
Anyone know whatsup with Fnatic? why are they so anti korea there have been 2 quite appauling negative whiney posts about korea, from people within the Fnatic organization , that and TT1 sending a fairly embarassing letter to be translated on playxp although TT1's was alot less offensive then these 2 have been i still found it a bit odd. Koreans must be getting a really bad impression about the foreign scene if they are reading any of these articles. If you dont like the GSL dont go, but dont complain that Gom isnt doing enough for foreigners they have done more then any other esports organization so far to try and incorporate foreigners into their scene. Anyone can qualify for code a, they have a foreigner house you can stay at, they have teamed up with a north american tournament to help get more foreigners over to korea all expenses paid, they have changed their format to be more appealing to foreigners. What more do you fucking want? should any foreigner who goes there just be automatically be awarded a spot in code s. Honestly when they did code a seeds before foreigners just got owned aside from 1 exception (huk). Also i have heard quite a few korean pro's saying they have spent time at the foreigner house practicing with foreigners obviously gom is trying to accomodate their practicing needs as best they can, and im sure if you made friends with huk and jinro they would beable to help you find practice partners along with tasteless artosis john, you still have tons of ways to interact with gom to see if they can accomodate you, i dont think the language barrier is a huge deal, Tasteless and artosis have lived their for years and loved it, idra has said many times that he would have continued to live in korea if their were more tournament there and he didnt have a team of practice partners and he performed quite well. (thats his choice i still think korea is the right place for certain foreigners)
All these arguments seem to have relatively easy solutions/ just seem like whining, I doubt xeris or Fams have ever even been to korea, and TT1 was there for a week that isnt really enough time to make a good assesment of korea.
I think it might work well to just make Code A an online qualifier. I mean honestly, Code A is just a qualification tournament to play in the real thing. The latency barrier would still exist but the tournament would still be much more accessible to foreigners who want to give GSL a shot but don't want to committ so much travelling to Korean and still find themselves stuck in Code A.
Also I'm curious why you think your opinion is so much more valid. Xeris has worked with fnatic for a whileand players like TT1 got to experience Korea for a week and make a decision. Then you say that 1 week of experience is not enough for a valid opinion, yet your own opinion is somehow completely valid. Then you use the example of Artosis and Tasteless which is completely irrelevant because they don't even play professionaly. Tasteless said that after years he's learned minimal korean to get by in conversations. Speaking fluently enough to have any meaningful strategy discussions with people is another issue.
Just for clarity I'm not arguing that GOM isn't doing enough to accomodate foreigners. Given how competitive even Code A is, a direct seed to Code S would certainly be too much and unfair for the Code A players trying to move up. However as it stands it just doesn't seem worth it until the latency issue is resolved or Korea has more events to participate in so you won't be putting all your eggs into one extremely fragile basket, so to speak. I can see players like Naniwa and Sen going because they're so good and have such a good chance at reaching Code S and doing well for themselves. But then you see people like moonglade, haypro, and torch, who, despite practicing in Korea, can't even qualify for Code A. That just gives you an idea of how competitive the tournament is. Do you really think TT1 even has a realistic shot at making it past Code A?
|
So, why are some people saying that the foreigners would have to play on ladder there themselves?
Whats stopping a group of foreigners from practicing and theory crafting amongst themselves like every other teams? Whats stopping them from organizing themselves to have schedule practices and training like every other teams?
|
Code A is a lot more than an online qualifier....
The online qualifier is qualifying for the chance to qualify for Code A tbh. If you think that the people in Code A don't deserve a LAN tourney after being in the top 172 of the Korean ladder (that want to play in GSL), then have played against everyone in that 172 until it's whittled down to 16, THEN havewon a BO3 in a LAN setting just to not have to do that all over again..... I don't know what to say.
Foreign SC2 is great, but Korea pays plenty of attention to it.
This post is ridiculous. Have you not looked at NASL? There are tons of GSL players in it and other Koreans.
How about MLG? This post was made after the GSL announcement of the cross promotion between MLG and GSL, afaik. If you don't see the unprecedented collaboration in that, I don't know what to say...
|
I think raising comparisons to pro leagues in European football is bunk.
Players in SC2 don't make guaranteed money like football players (with the constant threat of dropping out of code S and all), so there's less incentive to just uproot their entire lives to move to a new environment. There also really isn't an "offseason" so to speak for competitive SC2 unlike in other pro sports - it's a year long grind of tournaments in the GSL, just check the schedule on the front page in the last 5 months and see how many breaks there were. there might've been 1 or 2 one week breaks but other than that it's just straight on to the next tournament. of course you can't expect a player to make it so deep that they're playing all the way in every tournament, but on the flip side of the coin, if they're getting knocked out in the group stages every competition, is it really worth it to still be there?
Unless the world becomes Pangaea once again, there's really no pleasing the "foreigners need an equal piece of the pie" crowd. Time zone and cultural differences are something you really can't do anything about.
I think there might need to be slight tweaks to the code A format, but to just suddenly whittle it down to an online tournament might be a bit of a stretch.
|
I think it might work well to just make Code A an online qualifier. I mean honestly, Code A is just a qualification tournament to play in the real thing.
I can see players like Naniwa and Sen going because they're so good and have such a good chance at reaching Code S and doing well for themselves. But then you see people like moonglade, haypro, and torch, who, despite practicing in Korea, can't even qualify for Code A. That just gives you an idea of how competitive the tournament is. Do you really think TT1 even has a realistic shot at making it past Code A?
So you want to take a live tournament with a competition level that's only surpassed by Code S and turn it into an online qualifier, even though you yourself admit the thing is prolly too tough for one of the best foreign players to beat, while playing from the same server, nevermind the extra handicap that would be imposed by latency? What would even be the point of that?
Really, it's hard to take you seriously when you post stuff like this.
|
On May 26 2011 21:46 Fubi wrote:
So, why are some people saying that the foreigners would have to play on ladder there themselves?
Whats stopping a group of foreigners from practicing and theory crafting amongst themselves like every other teams? Whats stopping them from organizing themselves to have schedule practices and training like every other teams?
What's stopping them from doing the same thing over here?
On May 26 2011 22:36 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:Show nested quote +I think it might work well to just make Code A an online qualifier. I mean honestly, Code A is just a qualification tournament to play in the real thing. Show nested quote +I can see players like Naniwa and Sen going because they're so good and have such a good chance at reaching Code S and doing well for themselves. But then you see people like moonglade, haypro, and torch, who, despite practicing in Korea, can't even qualify for Code A. That just gives you an idea of how competitive the tournament is. Do you really think TT1 even has a realistic shot at making it past Code A? So you want to take a live tournament with a competition level that's only surpassed by Code S and turn it into an online qualifier, even though you yourself admit the thing is prolly too tough for one of the best foreign players to beat, while playing from the same server, nevermind the extra handicap that would be imposed by latency? What would even be the point of that? Really, it's hard to take you seriously when you post stuff like this.
Actually I heard the idea from Tyler and Incontrol on state of the game, and felt like sharing it cause I thought it was a good idea. Code A IS essentially a qualifier to get into Code S.
Also as I said, the point is that it would allow foreigners to participate in the GSL without making such a huge committment and taking such a big risk initially. As for the latency, the games would be played on the Korean server so only the foreigners would suffer from it. If you choose to try Code A without moving to Korea then the latency is an avoidable handicap you're imposing on yourself, I don't see the problem with that oO
Edit: also I didn't say it was too tough for the top foreigners. The top players (Idra, Sen, Naniwa, Jinro, Select, etc) could certainly take it or promote to Code S if they play well. I was saying most foreign pros, so people who aren't at the very top, would struggle a lot. TT1 isn't a top player lol
|
On May 26 2011 21:27 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:
GSL is still by far the biggest SC2 event, nothing comes even remotely close to it. There are a lot more events all around the world, but then again, the world is a pretty big place. Also, Koreans had been pretty dominant in most large foreign tournaments, with some exceptions ofc - and they pretty much always play at a handicap there.
They have exclusivity to the rights. I don't think we will be able to say that 2 years from now. ._.
The Korean culture shows us their methods and habits are highly successful.
You can host as many events around the world you want. Jet lagged players competing on a regular basis, practicing on their own terms with players from all over the world... whereas the Koreans have over a dozen of practice partners in the same house working towards the same goal. The Korean model is superior.
The Koreans have nothing to worry about considering other organizations like MLG, ESL and DreamHack are welcoming such players with open arms. What problem do the Koreans have? The glass is half full for them; whereas, the glass is half empty for everyone else. Therefore, Xeris and fams thread title are both very misleading. Xeris' should be changed to the Foreigner Problem and if fams really wants to continue in the direction he's heading in: GOM's inability to get Foreigners to come to Korean events.
I cannot think of any E-Sports organization who has tried to open as many doors as Gretech/GOM has. For example, Tasteless wouldn't have a job in Korea if it wasn't for GOMTV's Brood War League. We wanted English commentary. They gave us English commentary.
So, one of the Korean broadcasters spoke out. Tongue in cheek might I add. Groovy. Unlike his remarks, I'm sure Gretech has a better handle of the situation contrary to what you think. The wake up call is in. What they decide to do about it is a totally different story. If I were everyone else, I would wait to see what happens.
Code A is nothing but a glamorized qualifier for the big dance. You can try and sell it like an actual Tournament, but the reality of the situation is... it isn't. It fits the same criteria as the MSL Survivor qualifier before it. Players can bitch and moan all they want about having to qualify for what many have labeled the most prestigious accolade in SC2. A GSL championship. Either way, you earn your keep. It's an expensive price to pay and I can totally understand why players and sponsors alike see nothing to gain from such a deal.
|
Actually I heard the idea from Tyler and Incontrol on state of the game, and felt like sharing it cause I thought it was a good idea. Code A IS essentially a qualifier to get into Code S.
Code A is not essentially a qualifier to get into Code S. Code A is a VERY strong tournament which happens to also award promotion to Code S to the top performers. When I hear 'online qualifiers', I can't help but think of all the mediocre games like TL Open or whatever - Code A is nothing like that.
Also as I said, the point is that it would allow foreigners to participate in the GSL without making such a huge committment and taking such a big risk initially. As for the latency, the games would be played on the Korean server so only the foreigners would suffer from it. If you choose to try Code A without moving to Korea then the latency is an avoidable handicap you're imposing on yourself, I don't see the problem with that oO
You missed my point. You do realize that there are other things to consider apart from the chances of foreign players earning some cash, right? The foreigners would have very little hope of actually winning straight up against Koreans with the cross-server handicap, and just to give them a tiny shot at maaybe making cash you are happy and eager to turn a very good live tournament into an online qualifier? What exactly is there to gain, anyway? Even IF (and it's a big if) someone like Idra or Naniwa could take Code A over MMA, Bomber, or DGR, what do viewers stand to gain from that? Idra was in Code S for a few seasons before, did that have any actual impact on GSL or Starcraft 2 as a whole? And why would that suddenly be different now if some other foreigner made it to Code S for another season or two?
|
On May 26 2011 23:01 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 21:46 Fubi wrote:
So, why are some people saying that the foreigners would have to play on ladder there themselves?
Whats stopping a group of foreigners from practicing and theory crafting amongst themselves like every other teams? Whats stopping them from organizing themselves to have schedule practices and training like every other teams? What's stopping them from doing the same thing over here?
That's actually a good question. I don't know each team's individual situations, but my best guess would be that most foreigners are used to living in their own homes comfortably, and the fact that not many teams are actually providing team houses and equipments over here in the west.
But those problems don't really exist for foreigners in Korea as Gom already provided a team house for the foreigners. I just don't understand why some people kept saying that their only option over there would just to play on the ladder? They have all the people in the same house, with equipments provided for them. So whats stopping them from doing what every other Korean teams do? No teams really "need" practice partners like Nestea to improve. Look at the Slayers Team and MvP team, they started from scratch, had nobody but each other, and became great teams within a few months.
|
On May 26 2011 23:01 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 21:46 Fubi wrote:
So, why are some people saying that the foreigners would have to play on ladder there themselves?
Whats stopping a group of foreigners from practicing and theory crafting amongst themselves like every other teams? Whats stopping them from organizing themselves to have schedule practices and training like every other teams? What's stopping them from doing the same thing over here? Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 22:36 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:I think it might work well to just make Code A an online qualifier. I mean honestly, Code A is just a qualification tournament to play in the real thing. I can see players like Naniwa and Sen going because they're so good and have such a good chance at reaching Code S and doing well for themselves. But then you see people like moonglade, haypro, and torch, who, despite practicing in Korea, can't even qualify for Code A. That just gives you an idea of how competitive the tournament is. Do you really think TT1 even has a realistic shot at making it past Code A? So you want to take a live tournament with a competition level that's only surpassed by Code S and turn it into an online qualifier, even though you yourself admit the thing is prolly too tough for one of the best foreign players to beat, while playing from the same server, nevermind the extra handicap that would be imposed by latency? What would even be the point of that? Really, it's hard to take you seriously when you post stuff like this. Actually I heard the idea from Tyler and Incontrol on state of the game, and felt like sharing it cause I thought it was a good idea. Code A IS essentially a qualifier to get into Code S. Also as I said, the point is that it would allow foreigners to participate in the GSL without making such a huge committment and taking such a big risk initially. As for the latency, the games would be played on the Korean server so only the foreigners would suffer from it. If you choose to try Code A without moving to Korea then the latency is an avoidable handicap you're imposing on yourself, I don't see the problem with that oO Edit: also I didn't say it was too tough for the top foreigners. The top players (Idra, Sen, Naniwa, Jinro, Select, etc) could certainly take it or promote to Code S if they play well. I was saying most foreign pros, so people who aren't at the very top, would struggle a lot. TT1 isn't a top player lol
It is never, ever going to happen. I can tell you this with 100% certainty and if it does happen I will send you my right hand in the mail. Code A will NEVER be an online qualifier to allow easier foreigner participation. You think GSL would completely change how their tournament works to accommodate foreigners playing with cross server latency with no guarantee that they will even go to Code A upon winning? The fact Tyler and Incontrol even said that truly blows my mind.
|
Westerners like privacy.
Fubi, it comes down to the language barrier. Ask IdrA for more information with regards to that. When Greg was in estro he spent more time playing on ICCUP more than anything else.
If your in a pro gamer house surrounded by Koreans its very hard to communicate with them. Korean houses hold more than 12 players, so their are many players to bounce ideas off of. When GOM hosted the Korea versus the World tournament there wasn't even 12 foreigners down there.
In order for it to work you need many players of different races. Good practice partners is pivotal. These guys all work towards similar goals (collective) whereas the Western world is more individualistic. As you said, Slayers and MvP had nothing but each other. -_-
|
On May 26 2011 21:17 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 20:48 JinDesu wrote:On May 26 2011 16:46 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 26 2011 13:33 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 13:23 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 26 2011 13:08 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 26 2011 13:06 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 25 2011 22:10 Arceus wrote:All I see in this article is another complaint-fest. Gotta say it again that GOM is so kind, they did their best about it. They cover cost, change format, give undeserved invitations, provide housing etc Need else ? GOM sending MC/Nestea to foreigner house as practice partners ? and Now with the Western Starcraft 2 scene surpassing that of even Korea hell no Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea. Growing does not mean surpassing. In that context it did. He wasn't talking about it skill wise, or at least that's what I was assuming. On May 26 2011 13:14 Nayl wrote:On May 26 2011 13:06 TheSubtleArt wrote:On May 25 2011 22:10 Arceus wrote:All I see in this article is another complaint-fest. Gotta say it again that GOM is so kind, they did their best about it. They cover cost, change format, give undeserved invitations, provide housing etc Need else ? GOM sending MC/Nestea to foreigner house as practice partners ? and Now with the Western Starcraft 2 scene surpassing that of even Korea hell no Hell yes? Starcraft 2 has definitely gotten much bigger in popularity outside of korea. Please. There seems to be a trend in TL where they take "SC2 in Korea is not as big as expected" as SC2 has failed in Korea/West has bigger scene ect. SC2 is small in Korea RELATIVE to SC1 in Korea. GSTL May Finals got 760,000 view on VODs, neverminding all the live audience. Take that in for a second ok? 760,000 views. Have you seen any non korean SC2 content that generates that kind of view? We're talking about the entire world here, outside of Korea. It might be hard to believe for you guys, but SC2 in Korea is at the very least, comparable in size to the rest of the world. Lol but you do realize that a large portion of those views were from people outside Korea? I know I watched those games lol. Sc2 is not as big as expected is true, but it's also true that the foreign scene has been much more active. Look at the huge number of tournaments, LANs, and online events we have going on. NASL, IPL, MLG (twice), Dreamhack, IEM, TSL, Black Dragon League, Copenhagen games, Assembly, etc, not to mention tons of weekly online tournaments, all in one year. By comparison Korea has GSL, GSTL, and GSL world tournament.....and that's it. Outside of GOMtv theres almost nothing going on. It's been a persistant complaint by Koreans and foreigners considering travelling to Korea that there is very little activity outside of the GSL. Lol you do realize the viewer count is from GOMTV.COM not GOMTV.NET? 760,000 view is purely from Korean Viewers. Gomtv.net's count is 720,000. Pure Korean numbers are still higher than views from entire world outside of Korea. Also BW technically only has 3 tournaments- OSL/MSL/Proleague (Oh and courage I guess). It isn't about the number of tournaments; it is about sustainability and quality, of which Western scene hasn't proved yet. WC3 was huge too when it first came out, now it has been abandoned at large. Also something to think about: Korea's SC2 scene is trying to move towards the Brood war model, which is corporations sponsoring each teams resulting in players recieving salaries instead of relying heavily on prize money the way they do in the foreigner scene. This in long term is going to be much more sustainable than prize money grabbing. And in that regard it's failing. Sc2 in Korea has failed the attract the big sponsors like brood war did. The only team that has found a sponsor like that is IM with Coca-Cola. the rest of the teams can't even afford to send a player abroad without GOM's volition. You just keep being wrong and more wrong. TSL, Startales, Slayers, IM all have sponsors. In fact, each of these teams have major KOREAN sponsors, not just GSkill (TSL), Razer (Slayers), Coca Cola (IM), Zowie (Startales), etc. ST sends Ace regularly. Boxer also travels regularly. MC has gone to so many tournaments outside of Korea that he got worn out. My bad then, but I'm still gonna argue starcraft 2 outside of Korea is growing more than sc2 in korea.
I don't really think that's relevant/important. Football (soccer) is growing in the US more than the UK, but isn't exactly a worthwhile point as it has so far to catch up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
