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On May 26 2011 23:41 StarStruck wrote:
Westerners like privacy.
Fubi, it comes down to the language barrier. Ask IdrA for more information with regards to that. When Greg was in estro he spent more time playing on ICCUP more than anything else.
If your in a pro gamer house surrounded by Koreans its very hard to communicate with them. Korean houses hold more than 12 players, so their are many players to bounce ideas off of. When GOM hosted the Korea versus the World tournament there wasn't even 12 foreigners down there.
In order for it to work you need many players of different races. Good practice partners is pivotal. These guys all work towards similar goals (collective) whereas the Western world is more individualistic. As you said, Slayers and MvP had nothing but each other. -_-
Then again the problem is with the foreigners and not the koreans.
They need a course to work as together as a team now? let GOM provide that as well shall we.
Sometimes i just wonder what is a team in the western world, just a groupe with the same tag?
It seems they are just way to casually over the whole thing and then blame the koreans cause they exactly worked for what they got now or do some ppl think this whole infrastructure popped out of nowhere?
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I was under the impression that all our big evnts koreans get invited to and never have to qualify, im thinnking dream hack, copenhagen games etc... I know its invite only but they cant say we havent been inviting Korean players. Just we have a lot more tournaments compared to Korea which is fact. Fair enough theres is the biggest but no one who is slaggin off the Topci starter has actually thought more then putting every point down. You lose in 1st round for example you have no other money coming in, you cant exactly look for a part time job to help out any bills or spending money as you cant speak ther alnguage plus I doubt many places would take foreigners unless you are a teacher so unless you save before you go, you are going to be skint. A massive gamble on being cheeses twice. Hell if MVP shows he can get knockrd down to code A it shows even more what a huge gamble it is for foreingers to play in one tourney and mayb a super tournament every now and again...
On the practice and you can us eladder, Losira etc have already said they play strats theyd never us eon the aldder and use it for trying things out, not being able to talk to epople sucks, and hows to say that a player who turns up is instantly going to get along with HuK and Jinro? Everyone is different and they may not have time to help out lots and lot,s theyd probably try but they have to look after number 1 first.. Other people in the GOM house may not be good enough to actually help you eithier unless you take the top 5 foreigners whihc is never going to happen as they all have different priorties.
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Stop Complaining.
If the Foreign players were good enough and deserved to be in the GSL then they would make the decision to be in Korea because that choice would be the optimal one given their abilities and Opportunity costs . I would rather have the GSL be filled with koreans who deserves to be in there rather than undeserving players like Huk being in the tournament just because he is not korean.
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Tbh OP I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. You seem to be implying that because of "culture" it is easier for koreans to give up everything in live in a progaming house with a dozen other people. Not true at all. Westerners are just afraid to sacrifice. They would rather make some easy money streaming and entering tournaments with weak fields rather than to go to Korea and try to become one of the very best. Koreans do not have to change their entire tournament structure just because it suits the desires of these people.
Korea does not have to, and should not do anything to accommodate the laziness/lack of passion we see from most Western gamers. That being said I have a lot of respect for the Western gamers who do go to Korea to persue their dreams.
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On May 26 2011 23:41 StarStruck wrote:
Westerners like privacy.
Fubi, it comes down to the language barrier. Ask IdrA for more information with regards to that. When Greg was in estro he spent more time playing on ICCUP more than anything else.
If your in a pro gamer house surrounded by Koreans its very hard to communicate with them. Korean houses hold more than 12 players, so their are many players to bounce ideas off of. When GOM hosted the Korea versus the World tournament there wasn't even 12 foreigners down there.
In order for it to work you need many players of different races. Good practice partners is pivotal. These guys all work towards similar goals (collective) whereas the Western world is more individualistic. As you said, Slayers and MvP had nothing but each other. -_-
Well they had 8 at the World Championship invites, but I'm sure the Gom house can house just as many as most of the other team's. And communication isn't really a problem (I guess except for Sen), since everyone there can speak English. They were also 8 of the top foreigners at that time from across the globe, so I don't see how the argument of "don't have good practice partners" hold. Besides, you don't even need good players to start a team, you can start out as a bad team but as long as you're willing to work hard, you can grow together and become great players, Slayers and MVP proved that.
So like you pointed out, it's matter of cultural differences. The problem is with the foreigners themselves. They "can" potentially have the same training as the Koreans, and Gom even provides the facilities and housing, but they're unwilling to because "Westerners like privacy". Then the whole argument that the OP posted about the lack of good Koreans to practice with and the foreigners having to just practice on the Korean ladder just doesn't work.
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Once again...
Has it actually been touched on as per why they have to pay attention to the West? They've pretty much done all they can, all that's left is stuff that's out of their hands.
At this point it's about foreigners being good enough and driven enough to compete. If they aren't, then they won't make it in Korea, that's why so many choose to remain outside of Korea, because it's not worth the sacrifice unless you're very confident that you can do well.
I remember Huk said on his stream in response to a question about remaining in Korea, "It's fucking hard, but I still have hope". That's all it comes down to, do you think it's worth the shit you give up to go? If you're good enough, it is... If you're confident you can actually go far in GSL it is. But unfortunately, most people won't make it, and they know that it's just easier to compete comfortably outside of Korea.
I don't see why Korea needs to start paying attention to the West... We have some great players here, but even some of our best have had trouble competing with Koreans. At the end of the day, GOM has done all they can, anything now is just player skill and factors outside GOM's control.
So once again, the article highlights all the negatives of going to Korea(which are basically out of GOM's control) while not stating anything relevant to the title... WHY do Koreans need to start paying attention to the West?
Even speaking to your red text, what communication is needed? What do you want them to do? Seriously, people have sarcastically made comments about the situation to highlight that there are no real solutions to the problems you raise. You just talk about scheduling and dates, but they are running tournaments every month, I'm kind of confused as to what kind of communication will make more foreigners go there... It won't fix any of the issues you listed. You list a bunch of problems, and then have like half a paragraph of stuff that doesn't address any of them, the biggest limiter will always be skill in addition to the stuff they can't fix for foreigners, they can't warp Korean culture to suit foreigner players.
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Westerners like privacy, and Koreans don't... riiiight.
Koreans hate privacy, you know... It's not like they sacrifice their privacy to get something in return, like team chemistry and optimal practice environment. They just like to be around with bunch of dudes... sigh
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United States358 Posts
Look, I don't get why people think foreigners can catch up by being lazier. Everyone is vehement about Koreans not being genetically better than foreigners, with good cause. But why do foreigners think they can be just as good while avoiding boot camp? Why do people assume Koreans like living in a boot camp environment?
Compared to xeris's complete shit actions in not inviting Koreans at first, stuff like this is just garbage. People insist that Koreans learn English, yet complain that people speak Korean in Korea. No shit. My mind is blown when xeris of all fucking people complains about anything Korea ever does.
If gom wants to give even more preferential treatment to foreigners, that is fine, but they have no obligation to do so. They have to keep the next up and coming code b player happy too.
And I love how these threads all "accidentally" have as provocative titles as possible.
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lol as a Korean, somethings that this guy totally messed up on...
First of all... housing... you cant just say "get us a house" or something... because housing is incredibly expensive... especially in the major cities where the GSL tournaments are held.
Like really, is it our fault that eSports like is bigger in Korea than other places?
Surley, if some other company sponsored a tournament every other month that paid more than the GSL, lots of Koreans would move, and then they would face the same troubles you mention here: housing, practicing, language barrier... etc..
Stop complaining. At the moment, the biggest SC scene is in Korea, and until this changes, I guess its up to the players if they want to risk it or not^^
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Fubi I think you missed the point where I said the Korean Pro Teams are in it for each other. Whereas we primarily look out for ourselves. The style in which we practice is a lot different than how Koreans practice on several levels. For example, in Brood War a Terran would practice the standard SK Terran cookie cutter build without any differentiation for months on end. They wouldn't stop until its wired in their head.
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All I see are excuses. Seriously, western players need to grow some balls. In this whole discussion I'm missing the urge to compete, to prove oneself and to finally claim the title of "Best SC2 player".
If SC2 is only about money and entertainment, if competition is no longer the primary goal, this whole eSports-Boom-thingy is artificial and without substance. Thus making it worthless.
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United States358 Posts
On May 26 2011 23:57 Tommylew wrote:
I was under the impression that all our big evnts koreans get invited to and never have to qualify, im thinnking dream hack, copenhagen games etc... I know its invite only but they cant say we havent been inviting Korean players. Just we have a lot more tournaments compared to Korea which is fact. Fair enough theres is the biggest but no one who is slaggin off the Topci starter has actually thought more then putting every point down. You lose in 1st round for example you have no other money coming in, you cant exactly look for a part time job to help out any bills or spending money as you cant speak ther alnguage plus I doubt many places would take foreigners unless you are a teacher so unless you save before you go, you are going to be skint. A massive gamble on being cheeses twice. Hell if MVP shows he can get knockrd down to code A it shows even more what a huge gamble it is for foreingers to play in one tourney and mayb a super tournament every now and again...
On the practice and you can us eladder, Losira etc have already said they play strats theyd never us eon the aldder and use it for trying things out, not being able to talk to epople sucks, and hows to say that a player who turns up is instantly going to get along with HuK and Jinro? Everyone is different and they may not have time to help out lots and lot,s theyd probably try but they have to look after number 1 first.. Other people in the GOM house may not be good enough to actually help you eithier unless you take the top 5 foreigners whihc is never going to happen as they all have different priorties.
how is gom supposed to make the gsl not a gamble? that is part of its draw: things like MVP getting knocked down to code a shock viewers, while it may be unpleasant for MVP himself.
gom is supposed to make people get along with each other? not constantly calling people faggot on the KOR ladder is probably a good start. it seems like everyone loves jinro and huk...and hated idra. so what?
well yeah, i'm sure korean teams practice with each other more than they do with outsiders. so what? that's what teams are for.
yes, these things make it very scary to go to korea to play gsl, but i don't understand how gom is obligated to do anything about it. or what they even CAN do; no one can make anyone with a brain get along with idra. perhaps the best thing would be more foreigner-korean team partnerships like ogs-TL, or maybe korean teams picking up top foreigners who are willing to sacrifice by moving to korea, but will have a safety net, practice partners, and presumably translators by being part of an actual korean team. it'd be great if korean teams would do this out of the kindness of their own hearts, but you'd need a foreigner with the drive to actually do this, and a foreigner that the korean team thinks has enough potential.
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On May 27 2011 00:41 StarStruck wrote:
Fubi I think you missed the point where I said the Korean Pro Teams are in it for each other. Whereas we primarily look out for ourselves. The style in which we practice is a lot different than how Koreans practice on several levels. For example, in Brood War a Terran would practice the standard SK Terran cookie cutter build without any differentiation for months on end. They wouldn't stop until its wired in their head.
We have each other too. I'm pretty sure most teams just practice amongst themselves during their normal practicing schedule, and then outside of that, they just call up whoever they are cool with and ask them to practice with them. There is nothing preventing us from doing the same thing besides our own unwillingness created from our individualistic mindset.
There is also nothing preventing us from practicing the way the Korean does besides our own stubbornness and laziness. Which again, the problem then lies with the foreigners, and not the Koreans, which was the main point a lot of people are trying to make.
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On May 27 2011 01:33 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 00:41 StarStruck wrote:
Fubi I think you missed the point where I said the Korean Pro Teams are in it for each other. Whereas we primarily look out for ourselves. The style in which we practice is a lot different than how Koreans practice on several levels. For example, in Brood War a Terran would practice the standard SK Terran cookie cutter build without any differentiation for months on end. They wouldn't stop until its wired in their head.
We have each other too. I'm pretty sure most teams just practice amongst themselves during their normal practicing schedule, and then outside of that, they just call up whoever they are cool with and ask them to practice with them. There is nothing preventing us from doing the same thing besides our own unwillingness created from our individualistic mindset. There is also nothing preventing us from practicing the way the Korean does besides our own stubbornness and laziness. Which again, the problem then lies with the foreigners, and not the Koreans, which was the main point a lot of people are trying to make.
Artosis (and a few other pros) even explained back in BW that practicing these builds over and over and over was the best way to get good.
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On May 26 2011 23:27 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:Show nested quote +Actually I heard the idea from Tyler and Incontrol on state of the game, and felt like sharing it cause I thought it was a good idea. Code A IS essentially a qualifier to get into Code S. Code A is not essentially a qualifier to get into Code S. Code A is a VERY strong tournament which happens to also award promotion to Code S to the top performers. When I hear 'online qualifiers', I can't help but think of all the mediocre games like TL Open or whatever - Code A is nothing like that. Show nested quote +Also as I said, the point is that it would allow foreigners to participate in the GSL without making such a huge committment and taking such a big risk initially. As for the latency, the games would be played on the Korean server so only the foreigners would suffer from it. If you choose to try Code A without moving to Korea then the latency is an avoidable handicap you're imposing on yourself, I don't see the problem with that oO You missed my point. You do realize that there are other things to consider apart from the chances of foreign players earning some cash, right? The foreigners would have very little hope of actually winning straight up against Koreans with the cross-server handicap, and just to give them a tiny shot at maaybe making cash you are happy and eager to turn a very good live tournament into an online qualifier? What exactly is there to gain, anyway? Even IF (and it's a big if) someone like Idra or Naniwa could take Code A over MMA, Bomber, or DGR, what do viewers stand to gain from that? Idra was in Code S for a few seasons before, did that have any actual impact on GSL or Starcraft 2 as a whole? And why would that suddenly be different now if some other foreigner made it to Code S for another season or two?
That's just your take on the word's connotation. Maybe re-read it with the term online tournament instead? (TSL was an online tournament, so is NASL right now). It's a competitive tournament, sure, but thats just the by product of Korea having so many skilled progamers. Code A for me is a little hard to hyped about right now. It offers almost no money comparatively and the only reward is basically getting to play in Code S and getting the hell out of Code A. Either it should be marketed better (because when the main reason for playing is advancing to another league there really isn't that much prestige) or the price money should increase or something. Honestly I liked brood war's SL system way more where you'd house a big qualifier that lasted for a day or 2 and everyone played at the same time, then get the top 100 or w/e people from that to move onto a survivor tournament, and then the remaining 32 would start playing in the real tournament, which would get more hype and what not. Holding a tournament as big as Code S with the same structure and broadcast time seems a little silly to me if the prize is gonna be so low and the only reward being to play in the main league is kinda weird.
Anyway, not sure how we got on this topic. Point I was trying to make is that given the skill of most foreigners and how competitive Code A is, doing a risk / benefit analysis will usually make it clear the experience is not worth it unless you're at the very top of foreign play. Even if you are, it's a sacrifice being away and not being able to participate in as many events. Look at Idra's interviews on why he decided to leave Korea. He made t pretty clear and I'd say most foreigners echo that sentiment. It's nothing wrong with what GOM is doing (I think offering a foreign player a direct seed into Code S is ridiculous), and of course the company has a budget, but you really can't fault players for declining the opportunity.
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Funny... I don't see any of these objectors offering to pay the bills.
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On May 27 2011 02:09 Ownos wrote:
Funny... I don't see any of these objectors offering to pay the bills.
again, isn't that the whole point of getting a sponsor? to help with the money stuff.
Why otherwise would you get one, to get free stuff?
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These articles from Fnatic are just excuses for not having enough money to send players abroad for competing. To be successful, you need to take risk and move to Korea. Imagine a foreigner player winning the GSL; his name would become 10x as big as Thorzain
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On May 27 2011 02:44 TDN wrote:
These articles from Fnatic are just excuses for not having enough money to send players abroad for competing. To be successful, you need to take risk and move to Korea. Imagine a foreigner player winning the GSL; his name would become 10x as big as Thorzain
If a foreign player won the GSL he would be an international star, he would be getting sponsors coming at him left and right everyone would want to interview him, and he would become a star in korea as well as his home country. That is far more than you can say about winning any other tournament. If a pro has the will and desire to win a gsl they should totally go for it.
Also i agree i dunno what is up with Fnatic, but they have some like personal vendetta or something against koreans and korea. If they dont want to send their players thats fine, why do they need to convince everyone else they are right, most of us want to see more foreigners in korea not less, so stop shitting on our parade fnatic.
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On May 27 2011 06:17 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 02:44 TDN wrote:
These articles from Fnatic are just excuses for not having enough money to send players abroad for competing. To be successful, you need to take risk and move to Korea. Imagine a foreigner player winning the GSL; his name would become 10x as big as Thorzain If a foreign player won the GSL he would be an international star, he would be getting sponsors coming at him left and right everyone would want to interview him, and he would become a star in korea as well as his home country. That is far more than you can say about winning any other tournament. If a pro has the will and desire to win a gsl they should totally go for it. Also i agree i dunno what is up with Fnatic, but they have some like personal vendetta or something against koreans and korea. If they dont want to send their players thats fine, why do they need to convince everyone else they are right, most of us want to see more foreigners in korea not less, so stop shitting on our parade fnatic.
Do you really enjoy stirring the pot and creating some conflict that doesn't exist in every thread you join? Just an observation I've made lately.
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EPT
