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Korea is doing a great job at trying to attract foreigners.
I'm actually curious to know where the Koreans would stay for example at the NASL, TSL finals.
Do we offer them a team house?
Yeah I don't really know what to say, the Koreans train harder and perform better and still hand out prizes that are racist against their own country to try and get foreign people involved. I think that we need to rise to the level that Korea is at in order to mingle with them better.
I also believe we are on our way, but that far fewer people are dedicating their lives to playing outside Korea.
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don't think korea needs to pay attention to anyone, they are fine and as long as their players are better then anyone, they don't risk losing their valuable korean viewers. Atleast concerning bw. Sc2 i guess its good to catch some international viewers (until the popularity in korea itself has risen). But they are doing a good job at the moment. As long as there are no ways to pay someone that changes country a nice salary those international things won't happen, as people would like it to happen.
If more international sponsors will find interest in it it might turn that way. But that will take 2-3 years and sc2 popularity will have to increase all the way. You will have to accept this wall between the regions and be happy that while the sport is bound to be national except some lans, the viewing possibilitys are now international and all in english.
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On May 25 2011 22:31 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 22:26 eight.BiT wrote:On May 25 2011 22:22 mustache wrote:
Your reasons why going to korea isn't optimal is well written and thought out though it seems your article has no actual purpose.
Are you trying to say korean tournaments should be set up so that foreigners can compete in them? Why?
Anyone in Korea can compete in the GSL, just like anyone in the US can compete in MLG.
Those that can't go there simply can't go there, and I'm not sure what is wrong with that.
The way you wrote your article it seems you think the koreans are being unreasonable by not changing the way they operate to accomodate foreigners in an optimal way. whcih would be an absolutely silly thing to be complaining about
If I'm reading this wrong feel free to correct me You can't really compare MLG and GSL by saying you can just go there. GSL: Staying for a month MLG: Staying for a day or two You only stay there for a month if you actually got high enough. A month means you are in the FINALS or at least in the up and down for the last week.
Whats your point? FINALS in MLG happens later that day, not later that month.
It is a lot easier to say "Ok, I'll fly to this tournament, invest a day or two and come back right after." than saying "Ok, I'll fly to this tournament, and invest a month of my life." Not to mention look at all the Code S players that were getting knocked into Code A because of a retarded system.
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First of all i think its everyones own choice to go to Korea or not. They should know the conditions there and the possible problems with language, what it would cost and so on. Imo, if you want to become good, you need to make sacrifices.
And about living & practice conditions, West is pretty much going the same way right know. i.e swedish team house (tlo, sjow, morrow etc) and other teams. Though the language barrier isn't that much of a problem. 
Well written though.
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On May 25 2011 22:36 eight.BiT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 22:31 Assirra wrote:On May 25 2011 22:26 eight.BiT wrote:On May 25 2011 22:22 mustache wrote:
Your reasons why going to korea isn't optimal is well written and thought out though it seems your article has no actual purpose.
Are you trying to say korean tournaments should be set up so that foreigners can compete in them? Why?
Anyone in Korea can compete in the GSL, just like anyone in the US can compete in MLG.
Those that can't go there simply can't go there, and I'm not sure what is wrong with that.
The way you wrote your article it seems you think the koreans are being unreasonable by not changing the way they operate to accomodate foreigners in an optimal way. whcih would be an absolutely silly thing to be complaining about
If I'm reading this wrong feel free to correct me You can't really compare MLG and GSL by saying you can just go there. GSL: Staying for a month MLG: Staying for a day or two You only stay there for a month if you actually got high enough. A month means you are in the FINALS or at least in the up and down for the last week. Whats your point? FINALS in MLG happens later that day, not later that month. It is a lot easier to say "Ok, I'll fly to this tournament, invest a day or two and come back right after." than saying "Ok, I'll fly to this tournament, and invest a month of my life." Not to mention look at all the Code S players that were getting knocked into Code A because of a retarded system.
read my post, I adressed this topic. But why do you think this means GSL should somehow change it's format so foreigners can compete?
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There are 2 things in the article that I agree:
- Practice conditions
- Opportunity costs
I think it's a big ask for someone to come to Korea and expect them to perform without the support of their team. Maybe the foreigner teams need to all come together and work together to establish a stronghold in Korea - imagine Liquid, EG, Mouz all working together as a "foreigner" team. But I don't see it happening.
The opportunity costs is also a big thing. For Korea to be established as a SC2 centre, there needs to be more tournaments apart from the GSL. The GSTL change is a good thing and hopefully the agreement with Kespa will mean more SC2 tournaments in the future.
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I would not have cared if GomTV didn't name the tournament Global Starcraft2 League. I would've just said, "Oh, Korea has a domestic league, U.S has its leagues, Europe has its leagues. All we need now is a tournament or two every year to bring the best of these leagues together. Oh wait, WCG, and there could be more."
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On May 25 2011 22:06 legaton wrote:
if you want to farm more gold, you may try to play some World of Warcraft. The rationality of decision making of SC2 players and managers saddens and angers me. The opportunity cost is too high and the competition level too harsh? OK, but what happened to the ambition of competitive gaming?
Why should they be any more ambitious than making money? First of all, I don't see the disparity in skill that some people see-- I enjoy "foreign" players' games.
But why should they want to do anything other than getting paid to play a game?
I'm nowhere near their level of skill, but I assure you that if I were I would not give a rat's ass about being #1 as long as I was paying bills by being on the computer all day, doing something that would be more fun than 99 percent of jobs in the world.
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On May 25 2011 22:36 eight.BiT wrote:
Whats your point? FINALS in MLG happens later that day, not later that month.
His point is, that the reason that makes you stay a whole month is, you actually reached the finals. So you already won a lot of money. If you lose in the first round, you can fly home after day one.
Anc concerning the OP, I think if the best league in the world, the one that is offering the greatest competition by far, tries to accomodate people much more than any other league does, andsome people still don't want to play in it because they might lose and not make any money, than it's not the league's fault. At all.
So I don't think Korea has to learn from the west, I think western progamers have to learn from korean progamers if they want to be as good. If they are not willing to sacrifice personal stuff, that's totally okay, but I'm certain that the amount of hard work, discipline and sacrifice of korean progamers will pay off in the long run.
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On May 25 2011 22:40 jpak wrote:
I would not have cared if GomTV didn't name the tournament Global Starcraft2 League. I would've just said, "Oh, Korea has a domestic league, U.S has its leagues, Europe has its leagues. All we need now is a tournament or two every year to bring the best of these leagues together. Oh wait, WCG, and there could be more."
so your beef with GSL is in it's name? seriously? that's a tad on the rediculous side don't you think?
MLG is major league gaming even though it's not really a league but more of a tournament, do you care about that too? lol
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I'm not sure what your point is, you say Korea needs to learn from Western Esports and then list a bunch of reasons why it's difficult for a foreigner to move to Korea. And????
The living conditions of Korean pros is one of the biggest deterrents to moving there, as you correctly state, but it is also the most efficient form of practice and a big reason why they produce the best players in the world, so what exactly should they be paying attention to the West for on that front?
If anything, Western pros need to start learning from Koreans before they fall too far behind and are left feeding on scraps even in their own tournaments (which we're already starting to see with the recent spate of foreign LANs being won by Koreans). Western players need to wise up and realise that the game is their job, not a hobby and certain sacrifices have to be made (that doesn't necessarily mean moving to Korea but it DOES involve spending a hell of a lot more time practicing than most are doing now).
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On May 25 2011 22:34 ComaDose wrote:
Korea is doing a great job at trying to attract foreigners.
I'm actually curious to know where the Koreans would stay for example at the NASL, TSL finals.
Do we offer them a team house?
Yeah I don't really know what to say, the Koreans train harder and perform better and still hand out prizes that are racist against their own country to try and get foreign people involved. I think that we need to rise to the level that Korea is at in order to mingle with them better.
I also believe we are on our way, but that far fewer people are dedicating their lives to playing outside Korea.
Wtf? Holy hyperbole batman...
On topic, I do agree with the opening post that there simply aren't enough incentives to move to Korea at the moment. For the reason listed, a top player in Europe can get about an equal income from streaming/prize money/sponsorship to the average Code A player while living comfortable in ones home near family and friends. The only reason to move to Korea is the chance to compete with the best, which I'm sure many want but don't desire deep enough to make it happen. If the Korean scene doesn't grow more than it has and the foreigner scene keeps at the current level or above I don't see this changing anytime soon except for a selected few that go to Korea to persue their dreams.
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On May 25 2011 22:39 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 22:36 eight.BiT wrote:On May 25 2011 22:31 Assirra wrote:On May 25 2011 22:26 eight.BiT wrote:On May 25 2011 22:22 mustache wrote:
Your reasons why going to korea isn't optimal is well written and thought out though it seems your article has no actual purpose.
Are you trying to say korean tournaments should be set up so that foreigners can compete in them? Why?
Anyone in Korea can compete in the GSL, just like anyone in the US can compete in MLG.
Those that can't go there simply can't go there, and I'm not sure what is wrong with that.
The way you wrote your article it seems you think the koreans are being unreasonable by not changing the way they operate to accomodate foreigners in an optimal way. whcih would be an absolutely silly thing to be complaining about
If I'm reading this wrong feel free to correct me You can't really compare MLG and GSL by saying you can just go there. GSL: Staying for a month MLG: Staying for a day or two You only stay there for a month if you actually got high enough. A month means you are in the FINALS or at least in the up and down for the last week. Whats your point? FINALS in MLG happens later that day, not later that month. It is a lot easier to say "Ok, I'll fly to this tournament, invest a day or two and come back right after." than saying "Ok, I'll fly to this tournament, and invest a month of my life." Not to mention look at all the Code S players that were getting knocked into Code A because of a retarded system. read my post, I adressed this topic. But why do you think this means GSL should somehow change it's format so foreigners can compete?
Well that is obviously the problem isn't it? Look at all the major foreign tournaments that are live events and you'll notice there will be players from all over the world there. Even the Koreans come to Dreakhack, Assembly or MLG. Do the Koreans come to these tournaments because they are somehow more dedicated than the foriegners? No, they come because they can play, get their money and get the eff out.
It's similar to asking the Koreans to move to the US to play in NASL. Of course it's a little different since NASL goes on much longer, but you get the idea.
A lot of people on this website have this stuck up view about Korea that foreigners don't want to go to Korea cause they know they can't compete, when GSL is the only tournament in the whole SC2 scene that asks for so much time. Come on...
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Nice try on the article. I think you shot yourself on the foot using opportunity cost as a reason not to go to Korea. To measure opportunity cost you have to understand ALL the variables of gains and losses while making a choice... not only the tangible but also the intangible. The prize bubble in Korea is far greater than any other tournament outside and by practicing in the Korea environment you can say that you are investing on your talent which can be an advantage against other foreigners in the following international events. You say that the western community has been watching the Korean scene for so long, but it seems not much has been learn from it. What I see is a lot of money being put into the western scene but no change from dedication by the majority of the western pro gamers.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51449 Posts
I really dont think there is any problem with Korea calling itself the home of SC, it has earnt this title from its BroodWar days, it also probably has the 3 best players of every race in Korea at the moment.
The reason not many people go to Korea to enter the GSL qualifiers is simply because of cost, it is not cheap buying/renting a house to stay in to practice to then try and qualify in a country you don't know much about. Even if you did get an invite into the GOM house or were able to share a house with another korean progamming team like oGs/Liquid it is not easy to just turn up and qualify first time in the "home of SC"
To be the best at something you must risk losing it all, you cannont cruise your way to the top, you have to make sacrafices train riddicously hard like they do in korea (9hours a day, every day) to then have a chance at becoming the best.
To say that the West has bad players is not correct at all but to say they are the worlds best is not accurate either, dont get me wrong there are some top top top players from the West, but to say Korea isnt the home of SC or it should take notes on the West is completly baffling me. The big teams in the west have taken up the idra of the gaming houses to train together the only difference is they are doing it in a country that speaks english.
The only way to settle the argument of who's way is best, is to finally have a tournament of the Top 8 EU/USA/CHINA/SEA/KR players to compete in 1 world wide tournament, but i doubt we will ever see this because of where it will be and how much prize money it would actually need to be for it to actually attract the top players to the area of the tournament to compete in it.
Money will always be the key factor in this debate aswell in my opinon, reason Idra moved out of Korea was because he saw nice prize money in the US/EU tournament scene coming along and would be able to compete and train from his own country for these tournaments, not suck in Korea waiting for every GSL
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On May 25 2011 22:48 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 22:34 ComaDose wrote:
Korea is doing a great job at trying to attract foreigners.
I'm actually curious to know where the Koreans would stay for example at the NASL, TSL finals.
Do we offer them a team house?
Yeah I don't really know what to say, the Koreans train harder and perform better and still hand out prizes that are racist against their own country to try and get foreign people involved. I think that we need to rise to the level that Korea is at in order to mingle with them better.
I also believe we are on our way, but that far fewer people are dedicating their lives to playing outside Korea. Wtf? Holy hyperbole batman...
Maybe it is a bit exaggerated but the fact is the prizes are available only to those who are NOT Korean. That is racist against them. To give us a chance.
EDIT: Referring to the 3 code A places "prizes" may have been obscure.
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On May 25 2011 22:51 eight.BiT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 22:39 mustache wrote:On May 25 2011 22:36 eight.BiT wrote:On May 25 2011 22:31 Assirra wrote:On May 25 2011 22:26 eight.BiT wrote:On May 25 2011 22:22 mustache wrote:
Your reasons why going to korea isn't optimal is well written and thought out though it seems your article has no actual purpose.
Are you trying to say korean tournaments should be set up so that foreigners can compete in them? Why?
Anyone in Korea can compete in the GSL, just like anyone in the US can compete in MLG.
Those that can't go there simply can't go there, and I'm not sure what is wrong with that.
The way you wrote your article it seems you think the koreans are being unreasonable by not changing the way they operate to accomodate foreigners in an optimal way. whcih would be an absolutely silly thing to be complaining about
If I'm reading this wrong feel free to correct me You can't really compare MLG and GSL by saying you can just go there. GSL: Staying for a month MLG: Staying for a day or two You only stay there for a month if you actually got high enough. A month means you are in the FINALS or at least in the up and down for the last week. Whats your point? FINALS in MLG happens later that day, not later that month. It is a lot easier to say "Ok, I'll fly to this tournament, invest a day or two and come back right after." than saying "Ok, I'll fly to this tournament, and invest a month of my life." Not to mention look at all the Code S players that were getting knocked into Code A because of a retarded system. read my post, I adressed this topic. But why do you think this means GSL should somehow change it's format so foreigners can compete? Well that is obviously the problem isn't it? Look at all the major foreign tournaments that are live events and you'll notice there will be players from all over the world there. Even the Koreans come to Dreakhack, Assembly or MLG. Do the Koreans come to these tournaments because they are somehow more dedicated than the foriegners? No, they come because they can play, get their money and get the eff out. It's similar to asking the Koreans to move to the US to play in NASL. Of course it's a little different since NASL goes on much longer, but you get the idea. A lot of people on this website have this stuck up view about Korea that foreigners don't want to go to Korea cause they know they can't compete, when GSL is the only tournament in the whole SC2 scene that asks for so much time. Come on...
you're still not getting it. Koreans being invited into foreign tournaments has nothing to do with foreigners being able to play in korean tournaments. why? because the terms korean and foreigner make it seem like there are two bodies whith two player pools and tournaments.
this isn't true, "foreigner" tournaments are independent and don't have anything to do with the foreign community really, just like the GSL doesn't have anything to do with the players in their league.
Saying X foreigner player should be able to compete in the GSL because Y korean player was invited to a completely unrelated "foreigner" tournament is illogical and rediculous
tournaments are tournaments and whoever wants to compete in them can. If the geopraphical and time related inconveniences are too big them don't compete. It's not the tournaments job to ensure that anyway that want's to play can, only that anyone that wants to play is allowed to.
unrelated: GSL and NASL are not the same in that one is LAN format and the other online. NASL doesn't require any of their players to come to Oregon(i think thats where it's based).
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On May 25 2011 22:56 Pandemona wrote:
I really dont think there is any problem with Korea calling itself the home of SC, it has earnt this title from its BroodWar days, it also probably has the 3 best players of every race in Korea at the moment.
The reason not many people go to Korea to enter the GSL qualifiers is simply because of cost, it is not cheap buying/renting a house to stay in to practice to then try and qualify in a country you don't know much about. Even if you did get an invite into the GOM house or were able to share a house with another korean progamming team like oGs/Liquid it is not easy to just turn up and qualify first time in the "home of SC"
To be the best at something you must risk losing it all, you cannont cruise your way to the top, you have to make sacrafices train riddicously hard like they do in korea (9hours a day, every day) to then have a chance at becoming the best.
To say that the West has bad players is not correct at all but to say they are the worlds best is not accurate either, dont get me wrong there are some top top top players from the West, but to say Korea isnt the home of SC or it should take notes on the West is completly baffling me. The big teams in the west have taken up the idra of the gaming houses to train together the only difference is they are doing it in a country that speaks english.
The only way to settle the argument of who's way is best, is to finally have a tournament of the Top 8 EU/USA/CHINA/SEA/KR players to compete in 1 world wide tournament, but i doubt we will ever see this because of where it will be and how much prize money it would actually need to be for it to actually attract the top players to the area of the tournament to compete in it.
Money will always be the key factor in this debate aswell in my opinon, reason Idra moved out of Korea was because he saw nice prize money in the US/EU tournament scene coming along and would be able to compete and train from his own country for these tournaments, not suck in Korea waiting for every GSL
There is tournament called WCG.
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I think if this article had been posted 5 or 6 years ago too, not much would've changed. At least from what I hear not many pro gamers were eager to go to korea and live there even when there was not much happening in the foreign scene in the bw days, apart from a few. Now there is one more reason, i.e there are more tournaments in the west, so you dont need to hold down a day job to make a living through esports.
In terms of viewership of tourneys,the gsl is probably still the most watched or the most consistently watched tournament as far as sc2 goes, the skill level according to many people is the highest on the korea.
Basically progamers were reluctant to go to korea back then and they still are, they just have one more reason now. The reason why they care a bit more about the west now is because sc2 has not taken off the way bw did, so they need the support of foreign viewers.It would've been interesting to see how things would've panned out for the foreigners -korea relationship if sc2 had taken off like bw. Overall I think they are doing their bit to make foreigners feel welcome there though (like the team house etc)
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