On May 27 2011 05:03 insaneMicro wrote: Also, your kids probably get the "f-bomb" dropped on them every day at school/kindergarten/sports practice/on the street. Starcraft should be the least of your worries.
It's not the same thing - when it happens at a parent-sanctioned event, the kid believes not only that it happens, but that it's acceptable. For instance, if someone at school calls an overweight kid a name, the kid knows it happens - whether or not he participates depends somewhat on parenting, somewhat on the circumstantial stuff and somewhat on the kid themselves. On the other hand, if you as a parent call every overweight person you know names behind their back or to their face while the child is around, that tells the kid that it doesn't just happen - that it's acceptable and even necessary.
And anyway, the repeated implication that viewers' parenting standards are "unnecessary" are really beside the point. This isn't a thread about how starcraft fans should raise their kids. I should hope the parents here have a source of better moral guidance than the SC2 community when it comes to teaching kids. I'm not saying your viewpoint is objectively wrong, but that it is not applicable here. Please direct it to such threads as "[H] Vulgarity strat in Parent vs. Child".
On May 27 2011 05:03 insaneMicro wrote: I agree that official, big broadcasts probably should not be offensive. However, the question that arises here is: Where do you draw the line? Obviously there should be no racist/homophobic jokes, but political correctness can become rather boring. Occasional utterings of "rape", "fuck" etc. should not be a problem in my opinion. After all, ESPORTS is a niche product mostly targeted at and watched by young males. No matter how much you change your marketing, they are probably always going to make up most of the viewers.
Also, your kids probably get the "f-bomb" dropped on them every day at school/kindergarten/sports practice/on the street. Starcraft should be the least of your worries.
You don't draw the line. The audience tells you what they will and won't watch by turning on and off your show. It doesn't matter whether the caster thinks it's cool to swear if everyone turns off his stream when he does. Just like it doesn't matter if a caster thinks swearing is immoral if no one watches unless he's doing it... if he wants people to watch his stream at least.
The OP doesn't want to censor anyone, he just wants to know if we can have some kind of rating system so that people know what to expect when they tune into a stream. I suspect that if he had a framework in mind, this thread would be a lot more focused :/ The sad thing is that this had promise for a great discussion topic but is constantly derailed by people discussing whether kids should hear people saying 'fuck' or watch aliens spraying other aliens with acid.
I think that a rating system would be great. There's minimal effort required by streamers and casters... look at a table of language ratings and add it to their stream header/footer. It allows a wider audience of sc2 enthusiasts to comfortably explore new streams and casters without the worry of social/familial backlash. It seems like a great thing to help casters find new audiences.
On May 27 2011 05:33 scorch- wrote: The sad thing is that this had promise for a great discussion topic but is constantly derailed by people discussing whether kids should hear people saying 'fuck' or watch aliens spraying other aliens with acid.
Maybe one of the marketing genius parents on this thread can explain why "The Hangover" was the sixth largest grossing film of 2009? How could they possibly attract that large of an audience with so much foul language and unprofessionalism and sexual innuendo.
Fact: There is an enormous audience out there who appreciate "crude language" and "mature themes" and there is no reason why the E-sports community can't cater to them over the PTA.
You are all making strong doomsday claims that E-sports cannot survive without eliminating WHAT YOU SEE as unprofessional language. However the small community that has such strong standards may not, and need not, be the audience E-sports is aimed at. If you wish they aimed at you, then that is unfortunately your problem, not theirs.
And Toy Story 3 was the top grossing film of 2010.
But as scorch- said, what's the problem with have a rating system that the community can voluntarily get behind and allowing everyone to make an informed choice.
My only point is that there are many LARGE audiences other than the General audience. Stop claiming the only way to grow the sport is by catering to YOUR audience.
Also the crying over a rating system is moot. ASSUME THAT ALL CASTS ARE RATED PG-13... it has been stated so many times. The real issue is that implicit in the rating system argument is that the casts should be rated PG, or at least NASL. What if NASL is happy being rated PG-13? Does it hurt their audience... I'm not sure it does and the parents in this thread have not convinced me of this.
Will parents and kids watch NASL if it becomes PG? Maybe. Will many gamers stop watching because it becomes PG? Also maybe.
The main thing to remember is that, unlike in, say, football, we don't need all casters and content to follow similar guidances. The main point of the OP is to provide the viewers with an opportunity to prepare themselves instead of relying on common knowledge about the specific casters.
I'd like to point out two things. The first is that most casters' language won't change in a noticeable way if they stop saying "fuck".
The second is that mainstream sports are by no means clean. Yes, the commentators are careful with their language but there is soo much profanity by players and fans alike that makes esports BM look like nothing at all.
On May 27 2011 04:25 dOofuS wrote: It's pretty simple to me. If we want larger prize pools, more competition, and increased opportunities at home and abroad, we need to support this mentality. More viewers means more advertising money. More advertising money means the industry can grow.
You do not have a lot of education in marketing, do you?
Care to explain? For the record I do not. I am currently in University, studying communications, but have not yet progressed to any of the advertising/marketing classes. Please, educate me.
Well, no. I am not going to spend time explaining marketing theory to you on Teamliquid, sorry. All I will say is that your perspective is quite simplistic.
Fair enough, we can just assume you are wrong and continue on then.
Or you could read my previous posts in this topic and avoid discussing things you do not know nor understand.
Thanks for the response. I will pretend that it isn't condescending.
In response though, since you didn't link me to this previous post, I went through the pages and read your posts. It sounds to me like your idea is that we should cater to the Starcraft 2 audience, and not conform to broadcasting standards because Starcraft 2 viewers are a different kind of audience. While this may be true, it seems illogical to close the gate to new viewers, on the basis of what you assume current Starcraft 2 viewers want.
I watch the GSL, and support it every season with my money. I do the same for MLG. I did the same for NASL when it was announced because I loved the idea of the tournament, and the amount of money involved. It was a logical move in supporting esports. I will not however, be supporting NASL again with my money, if their current broadcasts are indicative of their future broadcasts. I can't stand Gretorp (personal preference) and the production quality is not what I expected with all of the hype (I'm not bitter, just saying I won't support in the future if things aren't improved).
I can't imagine the investor meetings, where someone is attempting to secure funding for the growth of e-sports, showing footage that includes foul language or dirty jokes. I honestly cannot see that being the case.
Well, I am sorry if that felt condescending to you but I simply stated what was rather clear to me. I believe that talking about things that you do not understand is rather useless.
I am thankful you took the time to find my posts in the previous pages though (not that it takes more than 15 seconds to do so). Innovations such as E-sports do not go "mainstream" (and mind you, this is a very loose term) by following the blueprint of other ventures. There are no comparable ventures, in fact, as Esports are not traditional sports. On the contrary, they gain popularity by promoting their culture, which is defined by the community of people behind it. And changing a culture on purpose ("let's not allow certain words in the way we communicate") is extremely hard and risky. Because of this, it makes far more sense for a company to play it safe, cater for the existing audience and try to expand it rather than attempting to change the audience's culture/values in an attempt to make the product more palatable to other demographic segments.
You may not realize it, but there are TONS of examples of companies (even major ones) using bad words or sexual references in the way they market their product or in their product itself. An investor does not care about such things, it is perfectly fine as long as it is financially sound.
On May 27 2011 05:55 algorithm0r wrote: My only point is that there are many LARGE audiences other than the General audience. Stop claiming the only way to grow the sport is by catering to YOUR audience.
Also the crying over a rating system is moot. ASSUME THAT ALL CASTS ARE RATED PG-13... it has been stated so many times. The real issue is that implicit in the rating system argument is that the casts should be rated PG, or at least NASL. What if NASL is happy being rated PG-13? Does it hurt their audience... I'm not sure it does and the parents in this thread have not convinced me of this.
Will parents and kids watch NASL if it becomes PG? Maybe. Will many gamers stop watching because it becomes PG? Also maybe.
There may be large audiences other than the general audience, but none are as large as the general audience. If you want to use your own inherently flawed analogy of high-grossing films, you should really use something other than the 6th highest grossing film of 2009. A very odd choice. History proves the point you are arguing against.
On May 27 2011 04:25 dOofuS wrote: It's pretty simple to me. If we want larger prize pools, more competition, and increased opportunities at home and abroad, we need to support this mentality. More viewers means more advertising money. More advertising money means the industry can grow.
You do not have a lot of education in marketing, do you?
Care to explain? For the record I do not. I am currently in University, studying communications, but have not yet progressed to any of the advertising/marketing classes. Please, educate me.
Well, no. I am not going to spend time explaining marketing theory to you on Teamliquid, sorry. All I will say is that your perspective is quite simplistic.
Fair enough, we can just assume you are wrong and continue on then.
Or you could read my previous posts in this topic and avoid discussing things you do not know nor understand.
Thanks for the response. I will pretend that it isn't condescending.
In response though, since you didn't link me to this previous post, I went through the pages and read your posts. It sounds to me like your idea is that we should cater to the Starcraft 2 audience, and not conform to broadcasting standards because Starcraft 2 viewers are a different kind of audience. While this may be true, it seems illogical to close the gate to new viewers, on the basis of what you assume current Starcraft 2 viewers want.
I watch the GSL, and support it every season with my money. I do the same for MLG. I did the same for NASL when it was announced because I loved the idea of the tournament, and the amount of money involved. It was a logical move in supporting esports. I will not however, be supporting NASL again with my money, if their current broadcasts are indicative of their future broadcasts. I can't stand Gretorp (personal preference) and the production quality is not what I expected with all of the hype (I'm not bitter, just saying I won't support in the future if things aren't improved).
I can't imagine the investor meetings, where someone is attempting to secure funding for the growth of e-sports, showing footage that includes foul language or dirty jokes. I honestly cannot see that being the case.
Well, I am sorry if that felt condescending to you but I simply stated what was rather clear to me. I believe that talking about things that you do not understand is rather useless.
I am thankful you took the time to find my posts in the previous pages though (not that it takes more than 15 seconds to do so). Innovations such as E-sports do not go "mainstream" (and mind you, this is a very loose term) by following the blueprint of other ventures. There are no comparable ventures, in fact, as Esports are not traditional sports. On the contrary, they gain popularity by promoting their culture, which is defined by the community of people behind it. And changing a culture on purpose ("let's not allow certain words in the way we communicate") is extremely hard and risky. Because of this, it makes far more sense for a company to play it safe, cater for the existing audience and try to expand it rather than attempting to change the audience's culture/values in an attempt to make the product more palatable to other demographic segments.
You may not realize it, but there are TONS of examples of companies (even major ones) using bad words or sexual references in the way they market their product or in their product itself. An investor does not care about such things, it is perfectly fine as long as it is financially sound.
While you may have a point, you have produced no examples that truly support your statements. On the other hand, Starcraft has already created an industry in Korea. This industry has been successful for over a decade, and has proven profitable. Is there any reason we should not use Korea as a model for the growth potential in other countries? If it is not a good model, why? If you do produce an example in support of your statements, why is it a better model for Starcraft broadcasting than the proven model that exists in Korea today?
On May 27 2011 05:55 algorithm0r wrote: My only point is that there are many LARGE audiences other than the General audience. Stop claiming the only way to grow the sport is by catering to YOUR audience.
Also the crying over a rating system is moot. ASSUME THAT ALL CASTS ARE RATED PG-13... it has been stated so many times. The real issue is that implicit in the rating system argument is that the casts should be rated PG, or at least NASL. What if NASL is happy being rated PG-13? Does it hurt their audience... I'm not sure it does and the parents in this thread have not convinced me of this.
Will parents and kids watch NASL if it becomes PG? Maybe. Will many gamers stop watching because it becomes PG? Also maybe.
There may be large audiences other than the general audience, but none are as large as the general audience.
I feel like most starcraft 2 related things are small enough in viewership where they shouldn't have to worry about trying not to offend people. If it is not GOM or MLG I would expect maybe a curse word here or there or maybe a crude joke but are state of the game and smaller tournaments large enough were they should feel obligated to have a rating system.
I makes me sick when there is some form of entertainment and some people like it and some people don't and then people try to change the entertainment because they feel offended or it is not perfectly ideal for them. Because if they actually made the casts more bland and phony it would actually be worse for me but I would realize that It is fine that I am offended and get over it. Phony voices and ballwashing in casts just really turn me off even though it is considered "professional".
People in this thread act like there are some crazy shit going down in NASL casts... It is a few curses and silly sexual innuendos that make little senses and should go over the head of the precious little ones. That is the only major tournament that I have seen this kind of behavior in and it feels so minor and probably will be changed so they can chase the impossible goal of making everybody happy.
On May 27 2011 05:55 algorithm0r wrote: My only point is that there are many LARGE audiences other than the General audience. Stop claiming the only way to grow the sport is by catering to YOUR audience.
Also the crying over a rating system is moot. ASSUME THAT ALL CASTS ARE RATED PG-13... it has been stated so many times. The real issue is that implicit in the rating system argument is that the casts should be rated PG, or at least NASL. What if NASL is happy being rated PG-13? Does it hurt their audience... I'm not sure it does and the parents in this thread have not convinced me of this.
Will parents and kids watch NASL if it becomes PG? Maybe. Will many gamers stop watching because it becomes PG? Also maybe.
There may be large audiences other than the general audience, but none are as large as the general audience.
Define general audience.
It's not my term, but I'd assume it's in reference to the G rating by the MPAA, which means in fact, General Audience. I only used the term in the light of the way it was being used by algorithm0r. A more proper term might be 'a more general audience' since there really is no way to define 'general audience'.
On May 27 2011 04:25 dOofuS wrote: It's pretty simple to me. If we want larger prize pools, more competition, and increased opportunities at home and abroad, we need to support this mentality. More viewers means more advertising money. More advertising money means the industry can grow.
You do not have a lot of education in marketing, do you?
Care to explain? For the record I do not. I am currently in University, studying communications, but have not yet progressed to any of the advertising/marketing classes. Please, educate me.
Well, no. I am not going to spend time explaining marketing theory to you on Teamliquid, sorry. All I will say is that your perspective is quite simplistic.
Fair enough, we can just assume you are wrong and continue on then.
Or you could read my previous posts in this topic and avoid discussing things you do not know nor understand.
Thanks for the response. I will pretend that it isn't condescending.
In response though, since you didn't link me to this previous post, I went through the pages and read your posts. It sounds to me like your idea is that we should cater to the Starcraft 2 audience, and not conform to broadcasting standards because Starcraft 2 viewers are a different kind of audience. While this may be true, it seems illogical to close the gate to new viewers, on the basis of what you assume current Starcraft 2 viewers want.
I watch the GSL, and support it every season with my money. I do the same for MLG. I did the same for NASL when it was announced because I loved the idea of the tournament, and the amount of money involved. It was a logical move in supporting esports. I will not however, be supporting NASL again with my money, if their current broadcasts are indicative of their future broadcasts. I can't stand Gretorp (personal preference) and the production quality is not what I expected with all of the hype (I'm not bitter, just saying I won't support in the future if things aren't improved).
I can't imagine the investor meetings, where someone is attempting to secure funding for the growth of e-sports, showing footage that includes foul language or dirty jokes. I honestly cannot see that being the case.
Well, I am sorry if that felt condescending to you but I simply stated what was rather clear to me. I believe that talking about things that you do not understand is rather useless.
I am thankful you took the time to find my posts in the previous pages though (not that it takes more than 15 seconds to do so). Innovations such as E-sports do not go "mainstream" (and mind you, this is a very loose term) by following the blueprint of other ventures. There are no comparable ventures, in fact, as Esports are not traditional sports. On the contrary, they gain popularity by promoting their culture, which is defined by the community of people behind it. And changing a culture on purpose ("let's not allow certain words in the way we communicate") is extremely hard and risky. Because of this, it makes far more sense for a company to play it safe, cater for the existing audience and try to expand it rather than attempting to change the audience's culture/values in an attempt to make the product more palatable to other demographic segments.
You may not realize it, but there are TONS of examples of companies (even major ones) using bad words or sexual references in the way they market their product or in their product itself. An investor does not care about such things, it is perfectly fine as long as it is financially sound.
While you may have a point, you have produced no examples that truly support your statements. On the other hand, Starcraft has already created an industry in Korea. This industry has been successful for over a decade, and has proven profitable. Is there any reason we should not use Korea as a model for the growth potential in other countries? If it is not a good model, why? If you do produce an example in support of your statements, why is it a better model for Starcraft broadcasting than the proven model that exists in Korea today?
What examples do you want me to give? Ask and you shall be given. And yes, there are enormous and outstanding reasons why Korea cannot be a model in other countries: it is hugely different culture from the West and a much smaller market geographically. What works in one country does not necessarily work in another. If you want examples or are interested in this, I can recommend you a few books.
On May 27 2011 05:55 algorithm0r wrote: My only point is that there are many LARGE audiences other than the General audience. Stop claiming the only way to grow the sport is by catering to YOUR audience.
Also the crying over a rating system is moot. ASSUME THAT ALL CASTS ARE RATED PG-13... it has been stated so many times. The real issue is that implicit in the rating system argument is that the casts should be rated PG, or at least NASL. What if NASL is happy being rated PG-13? Does it hurt their audience... I'm not sure it does and the parents in this thread have not convinced me of this.
Will parents and kids watch NASL if it becomes PG? Maybe. Will many gamers stop watching because it becomes PG? Also maybe.
There may be large audiences other than the general audience, but none are as large as the general audience.
Define general audience.
It's not my term, but I'd assume it's in reference to the G rating by the MPAA, which means in fact, General Audience. I only used the term in the light of the way it was being used by algorithm0r. A more proper term might be 'a more general audience' since there really is no way to define 'general audience'.
Alright, I can't just keep lurking, as I'm quite opinionated on this issue.
I've watched Steven Bonnell's stream for ages, and I honestly love his commentary which is occasionally full of spastic swearing and bad manners. I love SotG, and I like that it's geared towards people my age, I relate to them.
I didn't have a bad childhood, my parents taught me never to swear, but it happened. It doesn't make me a better or worse person than you, it doesn't make me any less cultured than you, I'd really like it if these people who seem to think that would just go elsewhere with their elitist bullshit.
As I've said earlier, I watch Destiny play. I have to sign something saying I'm 18 or older to watch his stream. I absolutely support this, and maybe on the stream page a rating system. I don't support censorship of any kind EXCEPT on major tournaments, that being said, just like in real life sports, occasionally the casters make a blunder and swear. Fact: I've seen Tasteless swear during major games, he looked and sounded embarrassed, afterwards, but it happens. It's going to happen, no matter what.
I like that there are parents that are open enough to let their kids watch streams with them, but it's kind of counteracted when you're concerned about the incredibly sparse "harsh" language on stuff like SotG which I barely notice.
Another thing I'd like to say is, this language isn't going to destroy any popularity SC2 can possibly have. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the main viewing audience in Korea actually youth? Now, again, I have to point out that, as far as I know, in most cultures the youth are the ones cursing.
I'm not suggesting we have a profanity filled esport, only that we should be lenient and understanding if someone makes a mistake on a cast, and not to censor any PERSONAL streams (This means children simply wouldn't be able to watch any streams, I might add, because there's bound to be a few f-bombs once in a while.)
I have a hard time with the rape and retard usage. I myself like to make light of everything, I actually have a retarded brother, I have a close family member who was raped, I still make fun, of course, not in front of them, but humor is my escape, and I don't really feel like it'd be any better to avoid it, being ashamed. That being said, my personal relationships with people and what I say to them are different from me talking to thousands, or millions of people, obviously. I think rape, retard, whatever, should be noted in casters heads not to say.
It's important to realize words are only as harmful as you make them out to be.
I added an option on the TL stream control panel to mark the language level. This is purely voluntary and is the responsibility of the streamer to set correctly, but hopefully this should help you find streams which don't have any bad language if that's what you want.
On May 27 2011 06:48 R1CH wrote: I added an option on the TL stream control panel to mark the language level. This is purely voluntary and is the responsibility of the streamer to set correctly, but hopefully this should help you find streams which don't have any bad language if that's what you want.
Not that I'm probably going to need this for a few years yet, but this is brilliant. Thanks R1CH!
Sheila Broflovski: Remember what the MPAA says; Horrific, Deplorable violence is okay, as long as people don't say any naughty woids! That's what this war is all about!
EPT
