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DoomsVille
Canada4885 Posts
I don't see it as a bad thing that it starts off now. Really there is no need for swearing. It doesn't add anything to the broadcast. All it does is deter people (like the OP) from watching. So why not cut it out entirely? Nothing to lose, tons of gain. | ||
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r_con
United States824 Posts
From a concerned parents perspective(i am not a parent) I would be more concerned with my childs understanding of use of the "inappropriate" words. Words like fuck are not professional, but they are great words, and your kids will use them, they just need to know when to use them, and when not too. In something informal like sports or esports does it really matter if incontrol says, "idra is fucked if this push doesn't work and will have no other options if this rush fails". It gets the point across, and its merely entertainment, this isn't our job. this is their job, and their job is to entertain. If your a parent, i would say don't worry about your kids hearing bad words just spend some time to make sure they understand the contexts that they should use them(they will learn that anyway) | ||
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supersoft
Germany3729 Posts
since a bomb and its purpose should be much more disturbing than fuck and its purpose | ||
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algorithm0r
Canada486 Posts
Myth: E-sports can only attract more viewers by eliminating the VERY FEW curse words and sexual innuendos that occur in the casts. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On May 27 2011 01:45 naim wrote: Hell no, why always this difference? Sure its exaggerated but why do you think children won't get aggressive when they see violence? You deaden your kids towards violence. They eventually play sometimes bad guy and good guy with wooden swords or plastic pistols or whatever, thats normal. However they wont yell "make me a sandwich or i KILL YOU!" at the dinner table. Same goes for language, they wont yell "what the fuck is this on my sandwich bitch?". But that is not because you censor authentic expression, its because they learned what they can do, what is acceptable and what isn't. Cursing and violence are different things by their nature. People, and children, and animals, and plants, anything living, etc. all understand violence. It brings pain, which we know inherently to avoid. When your child falls down and smacks their head on the floor, you don't have to explain to them that it hurts. The act of causing another to hurt, therefore, is understood by empathy. We inherently understand that if there is someone getting beat up over there, and you don't know why - you don't go over there because you might get beat up too. No one needs that concept explained to them. On the other hand, to one who is not familiar with the meaning of these words, there is no reason "fuck" can't mean the same thing as "hello". Violence is something we are predisposed to avoiding. Swearing is something we have no predisposition about, since we aren't even able to recognize it until it is pointed out. You can't say swearing and violence are similar just because they are similarly taboo. They're not the same thing. Yes, kids repeat what they hear - from the time they are old enough to understand their mouth can make noises they are trying to emulate the noises they hear their 'examples' make, whether that be parent, grandparent, or someone else. It pleases them to be able to do so because for years it is something they struggle with. It shows progress. I personally don't think swearing would have so much power if our culture (USA here) didn't look at it in such a negative light - but it does. And in that light, we prevent our children from swearing to prevent that power from adversely affecting them in the eyes of others. I can't say that I like that it is that way, but since I can't do anything to change it, I can at least keep something as trivial as the particular words used to express an idea from affecting my family. Would you do differently? | ||
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Husky
United States3362 Posts
As far as my LiveStream goes I treat it PG-13. I honestly swear a lot in my natural 'gamer' habitat and is just how I enjoy playing games most. I rarely livestream though, but it is comparable to 'live' TV where anything can happen. Especially with gamers, we just swear and get competitive, its all in good fun  .I dont have kids but if I did I would just know that any time they venture onto the internet there is a huge chance they'll stumble upon something inappropriate for their age. Just have to be careful and screen things before sharing it with them. Yay for showing SC2 to your kids though! | ||
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naim
41 Posts
On May 27 2011 02:32 Treehead wrote: Cursing and violence are different things by their nature. People, and children, and animals, and plants, anything living, etc. all understand violence. It brings pain, which we know inherently to avoid. When your child falls down and smacks their head on the floor, you don't have to explain to them that it hurts. The act of causing another to hurt, therefore, is understood by empathy. We inherently understand that if there is someone getting beat up over there, and you don't know why - you don't go over there because you might get beat up too. No one needs that concept explained to them. On the other hand, to one who is not familiar with the meaning of these words, there is no reason "fuck" can't mean the same thing as "hello". Violence is something we are predisposed to avoiding. Swearing is something we have no predisposition about, since we aren't even able to recognize it until it is pointed out. You can't say swearing and violence are similar just because they are similarly taboo. They're not the same thing. Yes, kids repeat what they hear - from the time they are old enough to understand their mouth can make noises they are trying to emulate the noises they hear their 'examples' make, whether that be parent, grandparent, or someone else. It pleases them to be able to do so because for years it is something they struggle with. It shows progress. I personally don't think swearing would have so much power if our culture (USA here) didn't look at it in such a negative light - but it does. And in that light, we prevent our children from swearing to prevent that power from adversely affecting them in the eyes of others. I can't say that I like that it is that way, but since I can't do anything to change it, I can at least keep something as trivial as the particular words used to express an idea from affecting my family. Would you do differently? I agree to the majority. Just a few thoughts if you like to go that deep: Words can hurt people too, they can be violent. It doesn't even matter which words you choose. "dumbass" and "fool" can have exactly the same impact. In addition: Cursing someone is often directly linked with aggression to this person and the urge to do something about it/him. This explains the link between violence and swearing. In conclusion (and maybe away from the discussion back to the op): Beeps or big "Mature only" signs in casts: No All caster being aware that they should use "less offensive" words to describe: Yes. | ||
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Achaia
United States643 Posts
On May 27 2011 01:22 naim wrote: What makes you think that children adopt this language if they hear it? If you've ever been around a child for longer that a few hours you would know that a lot of their learning at a young age is repeating what they see and hear. A young child (especially before they're in Kindergarten even) will pick up a lot of their language and routine from the environment their parents provide for them. Again, this is something you can't really appreciate unless you're a parent. Oh and BTW I don't really care if casters swear or not. Everyone caters to different audiences and the people who don't like the swearing don't have to watch casters that swear. My point is just that I don't want my daughter surrounded by that kind of language so when she's around I don't listen to those types of videos or streams. | ||
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dOofuS
United States342 Posts
On May 27 2011 02:27 algorithm0r wrote: Myth: E-sports is going to rise to mass acceptance in North America to rival Baseball, Football, Basketball and Hockey. Myth: E-sports can only attract more viewers by eliminating the VERY FEW curse words and sexual innuendos that occur in the casts. You make some bold claims, and lack vision for the future of e-sports. If Koreans had that same attitude over a decade ago, Starcraft would never have gotten as popular as it is today. I myself don't believe that e-sports will ever rival baseball, football, or basketball in the states, but I do believe it can rival the less-watched sports. As the generation of gamers gets older, the potential audience only increases. Now, on the matter of eliminating curse words. In personal streams, or shows like State of the Game, it is up to the discretion of the content creator, swearing is allowed, and should not be controlled by censorship (as it is now), however, professional tournaments, with larger broadcast audiences looking to bring in advertising money and increased viewership will only benefit from removing all swearing in a broadcast. A perfect example of this is Tastosis at the GSL. Everyone here watches the GSL (I assume). Nobody here complains that they don't swear enough. They are very professional in how they choose to carry themselves during live broadcasts. The Code-A casters do this as well. Tasteless frequently mentions that they are not censored at all by GOM. Now, I've heard several legitimate claims from individuals in this thread who are hesitant to invite friends to watch e-sports, due to the appearance that is often portrayed. I myself fall into this category. My dream is that e-sports will continue to grow, and that I will have an opportunity to work within that industry. This dream's progress is slowed and even halted when the viewership is too embarrassed or concerned for their personal image to recommend this to a friend. (This is where Europeans tell me it's a personal problem, but here in the culture of the USA, it's a legitimate problem, and you waste your breath if you simply say "It shouldn't be that way") This is further hindered by the inability for parents to trust the content of the broadcasts, so their children can watch. Organizations like GOM and MLG are excellent examples of forward thinking broadcasts. I would recommend both of these to friends, without hesitation. The argument about violence is irrelevant to me. If a parent sees the violence and doesn't like it, they won't allow their children to watch it. However if the parent feels the imagery is tame enough, but doesn't like the off-chance of commentator swearing, they will still not allow their children to watch it. We can't prevent the first problem, but we can prevent the second. When will this thread stop containing posts about parenting? The OP did not come here looking for parental advice, so stop giving it. It's pretty simple to me. If we want larger prize pools, more competition, and increased opportunities at home and abroad, we need to support this mentality. More viewers means more advertising money. More advertising money means the industry can grow. | ||
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Hatsu
United Kingdom474 Posts
On May 27 2011 04:25 dOofuS wrote: It's pretty simple to me. If we want larger prize pools, more competition, and increased opportunities at home and abroad, we need to support this mentality. More viewers means more advertising money. More advertising money means the industry can grow. You do not have a lot of education in marketing, do you? | ||
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dOofuS
United States342 Posts
On May 27 2011 04:30 Hatsu wrote: You do not have a lot of education in marketing, do you? Care to explain? For the record I do not. I am currently in University, studying communications, but have not yet progressed to any of the advertising/marketing classes. Please, educate me. | ||
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sleigh bells
United States358 Posts
On May 26 2011 22:27 primebeef wrote: Idealy this would be a good idea, but it's really hard for a commentator to control their words when something exciting is happening. every other commentator on national TV manages to do this 99.9% of the time. most people at any decent job manages to do this in public, unless they're in a position of power so that no one can tell them to shut up. it's not that hard. | ||
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Hatsu
United Kingdom474 Posts
On May 27 2011 04:34 dOofuS wrote: Care to explain? For the record I do not. I am currently in University, studying communications, but have not yet progressed to any of the advertising/marketing classes. Please, educate me. Well, no. I am not going to spend time explaining marketing theory to you on Teamliquid, sorry. All I will say is that your perspective is quite simplistic. | ||
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VillageBC
322 Posts
On May 27 2011 04:40 Hatsu wrote: Well, no. I am not going to spend time explaining marketing theory to you on Teamliquid, sorry. All I will say is that your perspective is quite simplistic. Fair enough, we can just assume you are wrong and continue on then. | ||
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FatkiddsLag
United States413 Posts
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Hatsu
United Kingdom474 Posts
On May 27 2011 04:42 VillageBC wrote: Fair enough, we can just assume you are wrong and continue on then. Or you could read my previous posts in this topic and avoid discussing things you do not know nor understand. | ||
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VillageBC
322 Posts
On May 27 2011 04:46 Hatsu wrote: Or you could read my previous posts in this topic and avoid discussing things you do not know nor understand. So first you're not going to explain it, but now you have a previous post on the subject? You could have just said so and linked it. | ||
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dOofuS
United States342 Posts
On May 27 2011 04:46 Hatsu wrote: Or you could read my previous posts in this topic and avoid discussing things you do not know nor understand. Thanks for the response. I will pretend that it isn't condescending. In response though, since you didn't link me to this previous post, I went through the pages and read your posts. It sounds to me like your idea is that we should cater to the Starcraft 2 audience, and not conform to broadcasting standards because Starcraft 2 viewers are a different kind of audience. While this may be true, it seems illogical to close the gate to new viewers, on the basis of what you assume current Starcraft 2 viewers want. I watch the GSL, and support it every season with my money. I do the same for MLG. I did the same for NASL when it was announced because I loved the idea of the tournament, and the amount of money involved. It was a logical move in supporting esports. I will not however, be supporting NASL again with my money, if their current broadcasts are indicative of their future broadcasts. I can't stand Gretorp (personal preference) and the production quality is not what I expected with all of the hype (I'm not bitter, just saying I won't support in the future if things aren't improved). I can't imagine the investor meetings, where someone is attempting to secure funding for the growth of e-sports, showing footage that includes foul language or dirty jokes. I honestly cannot see that being the case. | ||
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insaneMicro
Germany761 Posts
Where do you draw the line? Obviously there should be no racist/homophobic jokes, but political correctness can become rather boring. Occasional utterings of "rape", "fuck" etc. should not be a problem in my opinion. After all, ESPORTS is a niche product mostly targeted at and watched by young males. No matter how much you change your marketing, they are probably always going to make up most of the viewers. Also, your kids probably get the "f-bomb" dropped on them every day at school/kindergarten/sports practice/on the street. Starcraft should be the least of your worries. | ||
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dOofuS
United States342 Posts
On May 27 2011 05:03 insaneMicro wrote: I agree that official, big broadcasts probably should not be offensive. However, the question that arises here is: Where do you draw the line? Obviously there should be no racist/homophobic jokes, but political correctness can become rather boring. Occasional utterings of "rape", "fuck" etc. should not be a problem in my opinion. After all, ESPORTS is a niche product mostly targeted at and watched by young males. No matter how much you change your marketing, they are probably always going to make up most of the viewers. Also, your kids probably get the "f-bomb" dropped on them every day at school/kindergarten/sports practice/on the street. Starcraft should be the least of your worries. I seem to remember seeing several female viewers at every OSL/MSL/SPL. The audience has room to grow, especially outside Korea. | ||
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