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CCow
Germany335 Posts
So what was your point here? Only see Beasty explaining what he said in the OP again and again. Would be great stuff to see something like this happen, would just feel so much more dynamic!  Also I would look forward to see teams like rox.kis and empire in it. | ||
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Frankon
3054 Posts
GCPL had predetermined players matchups and maps. Beasty wants GSTL format. Player plays till he is defeated. | ||
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Jred
United States27 Posts
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sPaM916
United States71 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
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eggs
1011 Posts
On May 20 2011 09:09 obesechicken13 wrote: Pros have it hard enough to make money as it is, now you want to make them divide up potential winnings among their team? Well sure, it's not like the worse members of the team have a shot at the individual leagues anyways so the only place they'd be able to play would be individual leagues. Individual leagues have a habit of lowering the level of players though, since a team might just have one or two good players. this is a way to provide more winnings to teams, who pay the expenses of the players. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
People need to realize that starcraft isn't just about the players anymore... In fact, I would say its BARELY about the players if you want to see the direction e-sports is heading. It's about the viewer.. the people who will tune in... who will sit through the commercials and justify the mere existence of endorsements for players in an online video game. The viewers are the bottom line in all of this, NOT the pro players. The only requirement for professional athletes in real sports is they have to have tiered levels of ability and they have to be significantly better than the average person to make it awesome to see. The NBA is bigger than Kobe and the NFL is bigger than any star quarterback... Adverstising dollars, TV deals, and more are what keeps professional athletes fed... not bonuses like the bonuses they get from winning the superbowl, world series, championship, etc. If the only source of income pro-gamers had was from tournament winnings the whole industry wouldn't exist. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On May 20 2011 09:29 Jayrod wrote: Honestly to you guys talking about individuals having to split winnings and stuff... People need to realize that starcraft isn't just about the players anymore... In fact, I would say its BARELY about the players if you want to see the direction e-sports is heading. It's about the viewer.. the people who will tune in... who will sit through the commercials and justify the mere existence of endorsements for players in an online video game. The viewers are the bottom line in all of this, NOT the pro players. The only requirement for professional athletes in real sports is they have to have tiered levels of ability and they have to be significantly better than the average person to make it awesome to see. The NBA is bigger than Kobe and the NFL is bigger than any star quarterback... Adverstising dollars, TV deals, and more are what keeps professional athletes fed... not bonuses like the bonuses they get from winning the superbowl, world series, championship, etc. If the only source of income pro-gamers had was from tournament winnings the whole industry wouldn't exist. Fair enough. Progaming could do better financially with team leagues if it managed to improve viewer quality. I still think team leagues tends to lower the overall level of play. As it stands, watching pro starcraft 2 players is already like watching old BW vods from 2007 or random IcCup replays of people B/A rank. The best starcraft 2 players make a lot of mistakes, they miss dropships on the minimap, overbuild gateways (like Combat Ex did in Chill vs Combat Ex in BW, two B players), call down six mules at a time, and rarely ever engage in any sort of map division or complex play. I don't think watching grandmasters players trying to cheese wins off of Idra and Thorzain would be very entertaining. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
I think team leagues are more fun as both a player and a spectator. Unfortunately, many of the premier leagues (EG masters, GCPL, ESEA, etc.) have been using a system where 3 or 4 players from each team play a Bo3 series. This is far less enjoyable, since there are no all-kills, reverse all-kills, and so on, plus it is difficult to stream all the games. If the games are streamed in succession, the match will last 3+ hours, which is way too long. When playing in a winner's league format, you feel a lot more involved as a team player, and yet you still feel as though you have control over the outcome. I know I personally play a lot better when I feel responsible to my team as well as myself, and I'm sure the players in GSTL feel the same way, which is why there are so many epic games. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On May 20 2011 09:49 obesechicken13 wrote: Fair enough. Progaming could do better financially with team leagues if it managed to improve viewer quality. I still think team leagues tends to lower the overall level of play. As it stands, watching pro starcraft 2 players is already like watching old BW vods from 2007 or random IcCup replays of people B/A rank. The best starcraft 2 players make a lot of mistakes, they miss dropships on the minimap, overbuild gateways (like Combat Ex did in Chill vs Combat Ex in BW, two B players), call down six mules at a time, and rarely ever engage in any sort of map division or complex play. I don't think watching grandmasters players trying to cheese wins off of Idra and Thorzain would be very entertaining. If you don't think there are GM level players who can take legit games off IdrA and ThorZain you are mistaken. | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
But the biggest cool factor of a team league is the sense of control you as a spectator feels when you yell at the screen telling the teams to bring out inca against the protoss opponent instead of supernova against DRG. There is emotional investment that is immediate. "oh damn, that guy is good at tvt, such and such team should send out ______" and when ______ is sent out, you think to yourself "awesome choice me! I'm going to beat the other team! Yeah!" all without letting go of possible cool ace matches between the big names. The possibility of MVP vs MC or Alicia vs Bomber. We get to have those fights without waiting for the final 4 nor do we feel cheated if they face each other in the first round. Every team has an ace player that we would love to watch fight it out in the final game--and team leagues gaurantees at least 2 of them to reach the finals no matter what. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6267 Posts
Then the OP compares the GSTL and GSL and how they can't prepare for a certain opponent/matchup. I think this is incorrect - there are snipers in the team who will prepare especially for an opponent. Again, the OP is hyping up the GSTL because of the results of the matches (which is beyond the control of the organiser). Remember GSTL1? The games were mostly a disappointment except for the epic finals. If the GSTL had poor games, we wouldn't be hyping it up that much. What I'm trying to say is that people need to say a tournament is better because it coincidentally had better games. The OP was asking for more "team leagues" because the GSTL happened to produce better games. If the GSL had produced better games, the OP would've asked for more individual leagues instead. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
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Bibulus
United States25 Posts
Like most statistics the sample size dictates how random the results are, with the smaller the sample the bigger the random factor. I can't help but correlate the low number of players to the random results you see. The RO4 was awesome, but the finals were ass? That doesn't make sense without a lot of random being involved. | ||
bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
The argument for GCPL and the EGMCSL is that by having a single player match up you see more players. So instead of just seeing IdrA all kill every week we get to see more of the EG roster. As a spectator, there is nothing more exciting than seeing a reverse all kill or a relatively no name player taking out legends and giants (MMA again last season.) The first major organisation to do it and do it properly will realise the immense potential. On May 20 2011 13:58 FataLe wrote: Dude they dropped to Code A because they lost. Don't blame the system, they just weren't the best players on the day.. As much as i don't want this thread to devolve into an argument about the current state of the game; the high number of variables in SC2 doesn't guarantee the better player wins on the day. A Bo1 format can be incredibly luck based and can have huge implications. They did just change the format a little bit to make it easier to stay in Code S | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4560 Posts
On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote: After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least. Dude they dropped to Code A because they lost. Don't blame the system, they just weren't the best players on the day.. | ||
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TheBanana
Norway2183 Posts
On May 20 2011 01:28 noproblem wrote: Guess OP missed the GCPL then. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GCPL You really think OP missed GCPL when he PLAYED in it? I agree with Beasty, every time I hear about a new team league I cross my fingers and check the format only to be disappointed. The GSTL-format is awesome, the format that's used in tournaments like GCPL and EG Masters is bad. Yes they are more practical and easier to organize but only at the cost of entertainment value, a completely wrong way to go about things IMO. Winner stays format should definitely be the format of team leagues. Otherwise it just feels like random matches artificially linked together. It's just a semi-team competition. | ||
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DiamondTear
Finland165 Posts
You talk about cheese in the Code S groups, but has there actually been any? It's a big risk to take in a bo1. | ||
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flk0s
54 Posts
To me this is a significant problem, given that even the best of the best players have perhaps a 70% winrate, while good players might have a 60% winrate (these rates are probably even lower when top players play each other). I think that of all possible improvements to GSL, the most significant would be to change the best of 1 to at least a best of 3. Anyways, I can rave on more about this if anyone wants.. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On May 20 2011 13:58 FataLe wrote: Dude they dropped to Code A because they lost. Don't blame the system, they just weren't the best players on the day.. How many times have you seen the better player drop the first game only to come back to win 3-1 or 4-2 or something? Bo1 is a pretty bad indicator of skill, just like in Poker you don't want to have a headsup with 1500 rolls with 500 BB, but with 10BB it already is a pretty decent indication of skill. | ||
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