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After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.
I actually look forward to GSTL more than the GSL itself, it has interesting system - even though its BO1 its much more fun to watch because players cant prepare for certain opponent and prepare tactics for specific matchup and it really brings out team spirit. We get to see players who are unknown to public all-kill enemy teams and we get to see all their matchups in couple of hours and we just see how GOOD is the player overall. Even the worse player can beat the better one with prepairing for BO3 with 2x cheese or just blind countering his playstyle and hoping it will work, while in this kind of system..I wont say its not possible but its just less likely to happen.
If we look at TSL, not only the players make the tournament as good as TSL was, there were far better players than some that qualified for TSL but just hype, organization, prize pool, casters and really nice editing made TSL best online tournament ever. There are many many team-leagues going on at this moment but for me at least they just...arent really fun to watch I dont feel the team spirit in them and it feels just like another team-league there is.
I played team-league called SGL (not sure how many people saw it) with my team Empire and it was best league for me to play because you never know which opponent you will get next, you cant prepare for it and you dont know if your opponent will cheese or not which usually results in big macro games because none of players want to lose from cheese in BO1 and after each game for example if you win - you discuss with your team mates which next opponent they might send and which kind of playstyle he got and so on. You have to think which players you are sending after first loss or which player you are sending to play first overall, do you want to send your best player on start? do you want to keep him last? Thats the team spirit that I wish there are in other team leagues but there arent - they are just arranged matches with 3/4x bo3's that are just as any other bo3 in my eyes (I might be wrong  )
So bottom line is, why isnt there team-league like GSTL outside korea? Lets be honest everyone is "bored" now after TSL, there wont be any other tournament like TSL any time soon (until next TSL) so why cant we have foreign GSTL meanwhile that would be hyped just as TSL with awesome casters and best foreign teams out there?
Dont tell me you wouldnt like to see for example well known teams like EG, mouz or Dignitas getting all-killed from some player that 99% of people never even heard of him.
My suggestion is next: make a 16 team "GSTL" that would be played in BO7 single elimination with seeds of teams. Why 16 you ask? why not? We have time till next TSL
16 teams would mean taking 8 teams from NA and 8 teams from EU - maybe seed 2 teams from NA and 2 seeds from EU and make the bracket in round one something like NA vs EU - EU VS NA - NA VS EU - because if I was viewer I would rather see EU vs NA team fighting than EU vs EU or NA vs NA because most likely we have seen those teams play between each other already. I think with 16 teams no good team would be left behind so I dont think qualifications would be needed for this kind of "GSTL".
There are a lot of solo leagues and team leagues now that are all played on NA server which results in many eastern european players and teams not participating in them because of big delay when playing from EU to NA server which makes me very sad because some of best EU players are from eastern europe. I know you will say - but then NA will have this problem - they might but it probably wont be as bad as it would be for EU > NA since internet in eastern european countries is worse and if both players agree matches can be played on NA as well.
Oh and about streaming the "GSTL" as well I would like it to be like TSL was, put it twice a week - on saturday team 1 vs team 2 and on sunday team 3 vs team 4. That means we would have 4 weeks for Ro16, another 2 weeks for Ro8 and then Ro4 could be another 2 weeks (1 CW per week) and then the finals which is (if my math isnt terrible) 9 weeks and after those 9 weeks are done gogo TSL 4 qualifications?
Post below what you think of this and would you like to see this kind of team-league instead of regular ones!
♥ Beasty
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Maybe we could do both I think there is another game they play in Korea where they do that.
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EG Master's cup? Theres many leagues like this they just dont get as much viewers as 1v1 leagues.
Also, I had to read 2 paragraphs to realize what u are actually talking about and i freaking should be able to do it just by the title! Read forum guidelines beasty!
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On May 19 2011 11:10 Gomas wrote:
EG Master's cup? Theres many leagues like this they just dont get as much viewers as 1v1 leagues.
Also, I had to read 2 paragraphs to realize what u are actually talking about and i freaking should be able to do it just by the title! Read forum guidelines beasty!
EG Master's cup is not same format as GSTL is.
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I feel like OP could shorten his post and get his message across just the same.
Essentially: "Team Leagues, why isn't there more of them?"
Maybe just use this thread as a setup for ideas on how to make some Team Leagues.
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it blows my mind that we still haven't seen an SC2 equivalent of the WC3L. It was a major team league in WC3 run by the ESL that ran for like 15 seasons, had LAN finals for the top 4 teams, tens of thousands of dollars in prize money and featured all of the world's best players. It was such a big deal in WC3 that teams bankrupted themselves signing the best players on huge contracts to try and win it.
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I am sad that none of the western team events use the Winner's League format. The Clan-War(? I think thats what its called) format that event like EG Master's cup use is really boring... maybe some teams (a lot of western teams have a solid lineup with no stars) like it better, but its not anywhere near as much fun to watch.
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I find team-league much more interesting than individual league. So I too would like to see more team-league. Watching match like oGs vs Startale was very fun, with the players provoking the other team, watching players all-kill, lesser know players sniping star players, etc. Eg Master Cup isn't like GSTL, its format is completely different.
As for being bored after TSL? I disagree. What made this TSL awesome is because the korean were crushed aside MC and because of Thorzain. Naniwa is boring as fuck.
-NASL, the pools matches aren't interesting but when its done and the bracket is revealed, I will be following NASL more closely.
-IPL, season 1 was really entertaining, I am expecting a lot from season 2. I am following the qualifier.
-LAN are always entertaining. MLG's next!
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I don't think you need to change the format when it works. I think it's the best one out there as far as getting new players in while keeping the good players.
Sports generally get a system and keep it because it works.
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Team leagues have always been more exciting than individual leagues.
BW is the biggest example of it
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Canada1637 Posts
The main problem with the GSTL format, which I believe is winner's league (someone correct me if i'm wrong, I always confuse winner's league/pro league, regardless, winner stays on format) being used outside of Korea, is every foreign team is extremely international (or at least the viewers would want the teams to be both Europe + NA), so having your pool of 7 players on at the same time, not necessarily even getting to play is very problematic, especially when the prize pool of most team leagues is dwarfed by the big individual events, so the incentive isn't there for teams to participate in these types of leagues. I hope this will change in the future but I think it will take some time, the scene needs to get abit more stable, the new leagues like NASL and IPL are still very much treading into new territory.
Posts like this help though, I really think the community is hungry for this type of event, EGMC is good and all, but winner's league is the best.
PS I <3 u beastyqt, also props to the SGLeague, are they doing another season? It was awesome but never got really embraced :[
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MLG in in 2.5 weeks seems pretty big to me. But i definitly agree that GSTL is much more fun to watch than GSL.
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On May 19 2011 11:18 Aruno wrote:
I feel like OP could shorten his post and get his message across just the same.
Essentially: "Team Leagues, why isn't there more of them?"
Maybe just use this thread as a setup for ideas on how to make some Team Leagues.
In my opinion there a several reasons for this:
1) GSTL like systems and competitions require a few things to make it fair, its highly preferable to have all the players in one venue under supervision otherwise there is a chance of ghosting and cheating.
2) You need a complete reliable team, plus a coach and some other helpers. This is a huge load on the players and teams as its ALOT of effort to get it organised as oppossed to just entering 1v1 tournaments.
3) It takes much, much longer to have competitions for GSTL like tournaments since there is alot of fluff in between games that just isn't there like in 1v1 tournaments like picking the next player, talking the team and coach for a gameplan etc. and setup times which drags it out alot.
Think about how much longer the GSTL goes as oppossed to your average night of a GSL night... There is usually a pretty big difference.
Overall I like the GSTL format but I also think that unless NASL or an organisation has the guts and money backing the get teams to come to a pseudo-LAN enviroment that the GSTL format won't survive beyond the GSTL and maybe a few online tournaments.
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On May 19 2011 11:23 Adebisi wrote:
The main problem with the GSTL format, which I believe is winner's league (someone correct me if i'm wrong, I always confuse winner's league/pro league, regardless, winner stays on format) being used outside of Korea, is every foreign team is extremely international (or at least the viewers would want the teams to be both Europe + NA), so having your pool of 7 players on at the same time, not necessarily even getting to play is very problematic, especially when the prize pool of most team leagues is dwarfed by the big individual events, so the incentive isn't there for teams to participate in these types of leagues. I hope this will change in the future but I think it will take some time, the scene needs to get abit more stable, the new leagues like NASL and IPL are still very much treading into new territory.
Posts like this help though, I really think the community is hungry for this type of event, EGMC is good and all, but winner's league is the best.
PS I <3 u beastyqt, also props to the SGLeague, are they doing another season? It was awesome but never got really embraced :[
You dont need 7 players its BO7 = you need 4 players
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Yes, I agree with putting more of an emphasis on team leagues from a spectators perspective, although I can't help but think part of the draw to the GSTL is because the GSL finals have been so dry as of yet =(. It's interesting to hear your support of BO1 format as a player as I've previously come to the understanding that larger formats are preferred, and all-kills are great fun to watch!
It would be a good thing for the community to have a larger selection of teams competing in team leagues, but I can't help but thinking that its a bit of a misnomer to label the season dead until TSL 4. There are so many great tournaments with great players and easily accesible VODs that I have to determine what to watch in my spare time.
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Canada1637 Posts
On May 19 2011 11:28 Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 11:23 Adebisi wrote:
The main problem with the GSTL format, which I believe is winner's league (someone correct me if i'm wrong, I always confuse winner's league/pro league, regardless, winner stays on format) being used outside of Korea, is every foreign team is extremely international (or at least the viewers would want the teams to be both Europe + NA), so having your pool of 7 players on at the same time, not necessarily even getting to play is very problematic, especially when the prize pool of most team leagues is dwarfed by the big individual events, so the incentive isn't there for teams to participate in these types of leagues. I hope this will change in the future but I think it will take some time, the scene needs to get abit more stable, the new leagues like NASL and IPL are still very much treading into new territory.
Posts like this help though, I really think the community is hungry for this type of event, EGMC is good and all, but winner's league is the best.
PS I <3 u beastyqt, also props to the SGLeague, are they doing another season? It was awesome but never got really embraced :[ You dont need 7 players its BO7 = you need 4 players
Yeah, but for a true team league, you really do want 7 players because a team wants a pool of players to pull from! But yeah I guess you do only need 4, and then for the finals you can do 9, so only truely need 5... hmmm
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GSTL format for their teamleague is the best, I wanna see all kills, reverse all kills, epic snipes, funny ceremonies, epic comebacks, super gosus carrying a team, upsets and much more in the foreigner scene as well. This 1v1 - 1v1 - 1v1 - 2v2 - ace match if needed that EG has is alright but I feel the GSTL format is 10x better. Hopefully EG will consider it for their next tournament!
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Team leagues need to be in person to be truly effective. Otherwise they're just glorified clanwars and you have the potential lag/hacking/cheating issues that have plague the BW scene since the beginning.
In the GCPL we had teams occasionally not sending their best players out for ace matches because they were too tired, or no one wanted to play, or a player was asleep etc. You just can't organize an online tournament of the scale of GSTL with so many international teams with players all over the world and no centralized system to hold them accountable for both individually or as a group. It would be nice if we had an organization so big it could justify teams sending players to one place to compete, but the infrastructure just isn't there yet, and I doubt it ever will be.
I think the best we could hope for is for the GSTL to grow much bigger and invite foreign teams for a month long special event league. That way other events could plan around it and the stress on international teams wouldn't be as great since they would have time to prepare.
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I don't know why we don't just use the Proleague format. Worked really well for BW.
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I think something like this would be really interesting and a lot of fun. I also like the Europe v USA component; the World Championship team match was very exciting and brought that kind of "patriotic pride" element. However, I think one of the things that made the WC team match and makes the GSTLs so exciting is that full teams were present on camera. You can see looks of disappointment on players who just lost like they are letting their team down. You see worried faces on team members while the team struggles. Its also hard to beat the unintentional comedy of nerd excitement and high-fiving.
My question then is, would it even be possible to get 16 FULL teams in one place for this? It seems like many teams have members spread out around the globe-- the logistics of getting them all together at one time to compete is a team tournament like the GSTL would at least be a nightmare, if not a complete impossibility. I also think of situations like, "Team Liquid lost to EG but EG had their full team and HuK and Jinro couldn't make it." For individual events it isn't critical to have every member of a team present. For a team league it is essential for competitive reasons as well as simply having enough players to compete.
I would absolutely love to see it happen so I hope that I am wrong
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TWL would be sweet ^_^ Teamliquid winners league. I would pay to watch that.
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we have the eG masters cup, thats a teamleague yes?
imo TSL should stay as a solo tournament
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Big money foreign tournaments should think about investing in this area - to fund team leagues, where they provide whole teams the funds to travel and compete. Sounds too expensive, but the viewer's interest would also be very high, so perhaps it could be done sometime in the future.
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I would love to see something like the GSTL somewhere besides Korea... I think the format is so epic/awesome ... Im sure it will happen eventually.
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Calgary25980 Posts
GSTL format requires 10 players, streamers, commentators, and referees sitting around for hours.
Normal teamleague doesn't.
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everyone is bored now? there is so much good starcraft to watch i dont think i will ever get bored with it. i guess people who dont really like starcraft without hype and such will get bored but real fans will go to one of the many exellent tournements they have going on now and will most likely not get bored. and hey if you do get bored.....play starcraft or just leave and do something that entertains you.
i will admit that the finals for GSL were a bit lack luster but the semi-finals???? soo good IMO.
but the next season im hyped for to watch Huk. sad that jinro is in code a but lets see how he does ( he better win it lol).
but i think getting bored is not really a problem at all.
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GSTL format only works well at physical LAN events. Doing it online is a hassle.
1) You get really excited when watching GSTL because the all kill, the suspension, the bm, and the players' expressions. You can't have that playing online. We all knows that it's impossible to get 16 teams around the globe to come to one place and compete.
2) Even if you try to micmic the format, it's really hard. With the normal team format (each player plays against another player on 1 particular map), you don't have to play it live. The players can play their game at any time in the week and send the replays to the organizers. With GSTL format, you don't know who is your next opponent until the previous game is over. So 2 team have to play 1 game, then schedule for the next game, then play that game, then schedule for the next game. With this kind of format, it might take the whole week or two(if players actually have time to follow the schedule) to finish a series. Comparing to current online team league, which players will only play their particular game, GSTL format is really hard to do it online. It's impossible to schedule for 7+7 players and 2 casters to play it live.
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I agree that the GSTL is much more entertaining then the GSL. I just think games relate a players "Skill" better when they don't have time to prepare for a specific opponent.
I find I'm losing interest in the GSL simply because of the lack of "outside"(if you will) competition (Koreans competing outside Korea/"outsiders" competing in Korea) . But I'm hoping the MLG/GSL exchange program changes that. Although to be honest my hopes aren't really that high. Considering the Koreans have so much more to gain then the foreigners.
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The GSTL format is horrible tbh. Well that's a massive overreaction, but it's nothing special, it's to short for anything to be hyped. What they should do imo, is adopt the broodwar proleague system for pure win. Extend the gap between code S/A seasons to make room for a more indepth and more exciting teamleague.. like the proleague system.
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There is the EG Master's cup, and there are rumors of the GSTL expanding in the next seasons.
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I would love it if at MLG Columbus the teams would do some impromptu team league in this format. By my count, MLG Dallas had at least 12 teams with more than 3 players in attendence. Having a team tournament run on the side would make the upcoming MLG even better.
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I would love to se a big team leauge like beasty is talking about. Especially from a spectators point of view, this would be killer! Thx for the idea beasty! Great stuff.
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I would love if there was a format like the GSTL but the teams had to qualify though some sort of preliminaries, and the top 8 teams or so would be part of a bracket.
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I just want to talk about this idea that bo1 group stages is bad in every way. I dunno where this idea came from, incontrol & co on sotg maybe? I dunno.
bo1 groupstage is pretty standard for bw and was never a problem. msl/osl ran mostly with this format (some changes over the years, but enough to use as an example). It is not you lose one game, you're out. It's you lose two games, you're out. That's like bo3 single elim. ie. tsl3.
Taking this to the next stage and blaming it for players going to code a and simply stating as fact that it's bad is just silly to me. And apparently to you. Because in the second paragraph you seem to imply that a bo3 single elim is bad because people can prepare so well.
I really disagree with the "bo1 group play is bad in every situation". In certain situations, like if players have flown in and they might get eliminated after 2 games that might be a problem. But in any situation? come on now, get off the bandwagon.
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Qualifiers in to a 8 team LAN over 3 days (Ro8 - Ro4 - Finals/3rd place match), TSTL.
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On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:So bottom line is, why isnt there team-league like GSTL outside korea? Lets be honest everyone is "bored" now after TSL, there wont be any other tournament like TSL any time soon (until next TSL) so why cant we have foreign GSTL meanwhile that would be hyped just as TSL with awesome casters and best foreign teams out there? ... ♥ Beasty
? Not bored at all, speak for yourself. I loathed the TSL format actually (still loved the games).
I agree with you a nicei GSTL like tournament would be pretty cool. Part of what makes the GSTL (and GSL) so exciting is that they're 'offline'. But of course the foreign scene as a whole is not yet as committed, or concentrated for that matter, as to have everyone move in and live in the same region, and enable this sort of events. EG's cup is as good as it goes I'd say.
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GSTL wont happend anywhere else then in Korea since half the excitment is the see who actually goes down from the bench.
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On this note, what I would like to see is some league or sponsor put up a huge prize in a Winner-Take-All tourney broadcasted live over a weekend or something. That is something in the tourney scene that I think would be so exciting. This is why I like those first GSLs so much more because it although not winner-take-all, it was just a simple tourney to qualify, no status or anything, huge money on the line, single elim. That was fun because it was exciting.
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On May 19 2011 13:12 canikizu wrote:
GSTL format only works well at physical LAN events. Doing it online is a hassle.
1) You get really excited when watching GSTL because the all kill, the suspension, the bm, and the players' expressions. You can't have that playing online. We all knows that it's impossible to get 16 teams around the globe to come to one place and compete.
2) Even if you try to micmic the format, it's really hard. With the normal team format (each player plays against another player on 1 particular map), you don't have to play it live. The players can play their game at any time in the week and send the replays to the organizers. With GSTL format, you don't know who is your next opponent until the previous game is over. So 2 team have to play 1 game, then schedule for the next game, then play that game, then schedule for the next game. With this kind of format, it might take the whole week or two(if players actually have time to follow the schedule) to finish a series. Comparing to current online team league, which players will only play their particular game, GSTL format is really hard to do it online. It's impossible to schedule for 7+7 players and 2 casters to play it live.
I really don't agree with you here.
It's easier, not harder, to get two teams to meet up online than it is to make them physically meet up. And why are you bringing up scheduling? It would be like the GSTL where both teams meet up online (instead of physically) at for instance 17:00 with each team presenting the lineup, etc, etc. The first match starts at 17:30, when it's finished they have a 10 minute break before starting the next game. At most they are playing 7 matches (at around 20 minutes) with 6x10 minute breaks, which adds up to around 4 hours.
So, two casters, two teams and about 4 hours of spare time.
There is one disadvantage and that is that your team members won't be able to watch the game as it progresses*, so it's a bit harder to know who to select for the next game.
*Would be waaay to tempting to cheat, not that
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Yep i prefer that style also bo7 with single elimination even tho i don't hate the current system.
I think the experience is much better because what we see hapenning now is that some of the games aren't even played.
On the other hand having the 4 players ready for the game and casting them live is real hard to pull because most teams have players from all over the world and living in timezones and considering all that i guess they won't do it unless they make a new team league and more regional.
Imagine a STL (starcraft team league) with a EU division and a NA division. In the end of the league you could do a playoff like this:
1st NA - 2nd EU
1st EU - 2nd NA
I guess this could be the way to minimize the lag/timezone difference
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Sounds like a good idea to me. Though there might be a problem for teams to have all of their players online at that point in time on the Saturday/Sunday when the match has to be played
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agreed, the sc2 scene definately needs another good gstl more than another tsl or code s or nasl (my other 3 favorite tournaments). EGs tournament is ok because of the good casting and whatnot but gstl has a far better team format.
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Teamliquid Winners League gogogo!
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omg maybe thats the answer to tsl 4 and the poll....we dont need more tsl a year. we need 2 tsl formats.....tsl AND tstl.....OMG....this would be the most epic thing ever....so we would have not only christmas (tsl) , we would also have birthday (tstl) the two best times you have in a year!!!!!! GO FOR IT! :D
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This is definitely something a lot of people would love to see although I'm not sure about the whole NA vs EU thing. What about teams that have players from multiple regions? Also I would really like to see how the Korean teams stack up against the rest of the world but I doubt they'd be willing to practice since GSL will be most definitely be running.
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Maybe that's a pet peeve of mine, but an online team league could never be nearly as exiting as GSTL for me. Stuff like this
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7w9Af.gif)
doesn't happen online.
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I think the greatest issue would be trying to find some middle ground in terms of which server the teams play on, perhaps some system could be set up where the higher seeded teams get to play home games (eg. an EU team playing on EU) or perhaps after multiple leagues you could switch so first season an EU team plays on EU and second season that same team plays on NA and vice versa with an NA team.
Also, do EU and NA actually have 8 teams with high enough skill levels? I mean I can probably think of 8 good enough EU teams but not NA teams. Even then I would question if a lot of those teams have any chance against a team like Dignitas or Mousesports. Like would it be a joke for some of the matches?
Sorry about the negativity, I do like the suggestion though! Great idea!
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I always loved the team format. It felt cooler than the individual player format, because you had more than one matchup in a set (which can get a little old when you're watching a Bo7). It also gives some more meaning to the idea of "team" in the 1v1 format of Starcraft, which spices things up a little beyond ranking players. I'd definitely watch one of these tournaments if it ended up happening.
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On May 19 2011 11:10 Gomas wrote:
EG Master's cup? Theres many leagues like this they just dont get as much viewers as 1v1 leagues.
Also, I had to read 2 paragraphs to realize what u are actually talking about and i freaking should be able to do it just by the title! Read forum guidelines beasty!
EG masters cup is not the same IMO, not hyped at all.
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On May 19 2011 19:48 blackone wrote:Maybe that's a pet peeve of mine, but an online team league could never be nearly as exiting as GSTL for me. Stuff like this doesn't happen online.
you`re so damn right. It`s not just about the games itself, but about the stories and emotions. this does not only apply for team leagues but for online events in general. Sure offline events cost more, but they also attract more viewers/audience and this makes them way more lucrative for sponsors.
In the early days of sc2 I tried to watch everything. Nowadays I havent watched go4sc2/zotac ... in months. I just follow TSL and NASL for the online leagues and tune in whenever there is a offline event. I count GSL to offline events. Do you remeber last MLG, IEM or Dreamhack Inv.? yeah?! cuz they bring out emotions in you, when the cameras zoom in the faces of players that just lost or won, or get interviewed after the Victory ("it's ok")
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Your suggestions sound good to me. But I think that you get the feeling of "team spirit" when watching GSTL because the players are all live at the studio.
As a viewer you won't get that feeling by an online event. All you see is the lobby, and most casters don't even show the chat, it's either hidden or too small to read.
Nevertheless, especially a kind of NA vs. EU tour would be quite interesting, due to the discussions which region has the better players / niveau (pls don't start to discuss that here now).
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Would you and your whole team like to travel to another country just to play a teamleague? problem is, that wont happen. GSTL is so much fun because you have the players all in one place.
edit: posted only after reading the OP, looks like most people came to this conclusion ^^
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On May 19 2011 20:46 O.Golden_ne wrote:
SEA wont be represented?
he is just giving an example not actually making a league..
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On May 19 2011 11:36 Aquafresh wrote:
Team leagues need to be in person to be truly effective. Otherwise they're just glorified clanwars and you have the potential lag/hacking/cheating issues that have plague the BW scene since the beginning.
In the GCPL we had teams occasionally not sending their best players out for ace matches because they were too tired, or no one wanted to play, or a player was asleep etc. You just can't organize an online tournament of the scale of GSTL with so many international teams with players all over the world and no centralized system to hold them accountable for both individually or as a group. It would be nice if we had an organization so big it could justify teams sending players to one place to compete, but the infrastructure just isn't there yet, and I doubt it ever will be.
I think the best we could hope for is for the GSTL to grow much bigger and invite foreign teams for a month long special event league. That way other events could plan around it and the stress on international teams wouldn't be as great since they would have time to prepare.
This guy just nailed it... Team leagues need to be in person or I wouldn't watch them...
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Oh yes, TSTL!!!! That sounds so sweet. Also, it would be so sweet if a LAN organizer (MLG, Dreamhack?) had the guts to try and arrange a LAN team tournament. Maybe they could try and run a small side tournament at their event first and see how it works out. I know they might still be a little nervous about sc2 and don't want to go crazy with it since so far they have been really careful the tournaments run smoothly and reach the viewership they need.
For the team tournament to be successful, it would have to be appealing and big enough for the big teams to send all their best players (5+ players depending on format). If the best teams won't come, the tournament won't be that exciting. However, if run properly, I have no doubt it would be a huge success. Later, hell, even some of the Korean teams might attend!
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TSL hype machine + awesome GSTL team format: MIND=BLOWN.
NGL One in WC3 was very interesting with the team format, even though it had lower prize pool/production than WC3L. Makes you cheer for a team much more than for example in EG's MC format.
Yes, it consumes much time for referees, casters and players. But many European players play in daily cups anyways and could be at least available "on demand". Strangely, it is is way harder to find casters for this, since high profile casters that actually add value have such a busy schedule in SC2.
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Okay since many people didnt understand a lot of stuff I'll try to explain,
1) You dont need 7 players you need 4 like I said before,
2) I played already league like this and it was no problem getting players on at same time, so please dont write stuff like "players dont have time and are too tired" - players are payed to play and if their team tells them they need to be online for 2 hours once a week they will do it since they are paid for it, one clan war lasts between 1 and 2 hours and same thing for casters I dont see how can it be problem?
3) When I said "bored" I didnt mean "OMG life is boring all tournaments suck I never watch any" I meant there wont be any tournament as TSL was for long time so why not make "GSTL" to make up for it?
4) People comparing EG's team league and GSTL probably dont know how formats in both work. EG's format is 3x BO3 matches and then 1x 2v2 match. GSTL format works next way - both teams send 1 player to start CW and then winner stays and plays vs opponent that enemy team decides to send on him, so one player can win whole CW 4-0 vs 4 different players.
5) Even though LAN GSTL would be amazing, I doubt it will happen so I meant online one For people who said "I wouldnt watch it if it wasnt live"...doubt so
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i agree that the GSTL is much more interesting that the usual GSL code S finals
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The thing that really makes the GSTL is the fact that they are playing it in a LAN environment, so yes Beasty I agree but would like to see a team league in a LAN, I obviously realise that this is very hard to achieve logistically
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One of the reasons the GSTL shows so much team spirit is because all the players in both teams are sitting together at the venue cheering for their players, doing ceremonies against eachother etc. It would really be great if something like that could happen for foreigners too, but I guess due to teams living spread out it may be impossible.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On May 19 2011 11:28 Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 11:23 Adebisi wrote:
The main problem with the GSTL format, which I believe is winner's league (someone correct me if i'm wrong, I always confuse winner's league/pro league, regardless, winner stays on format) being used outside of Korea, is every foreign team is extremely international (or at least the viewers would want the teams to be both Europe + NA), so having your pool of 7 players on at the same time, not necessarily even getting to play is very problematic, especially when the prize pool of most team leagues is dwarfed by the big individual events, so the incentive isn't there for teams to participate in these types of leagues. I hope this will change in the future but I think it will take some time, the scene needs to get abit more stable, the new leagues like NASL and IPL are still very much treading into new territory.
Posts like this help though, I really think the community is hungry for this type of event, EGMC is good and all, but winner's league is the best.
PS I <3 u beastyqt, also props to the SGLeague, are they doing another season? It was awesome but never got really embraced :[ You dont need 7 players its BO7 = you need 4 players
if you are talking about Winner's League format then you might only need 4 players,but if you are talking about the Proleage format,which is winner does not stay to play the next player you need at least 6 players.
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On May 19 2011 11:20 cuppatea wrote:
it blows my mind that we still haven't seen an SC2 equivalent of the WC3L. It was a major team league in WC3 run by the ESL that ran for like 15 seasons, had LAN finals for the top 4 teams, tens of thousands of dollars in prize money and featured all of the world's best players. It was such a big deal in WC3 that teams bankrupted themselves signing the best players on huge contracts to try and win it.
Those times were awesome.
On a different note, SC2 needs to regionalize more. The EPS, for all the flak that it gets, is a good thing, actually allowing for offline events to happen. All these online invitationals with the same players from around the world playing each other are ultimately meaningless and I as a viewer am tiring of them.
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I think the biggest problem with the idea is that online team leagues don't offer nearly the same amount of excitement and drama as offline events.
Half of the excitement from GSTL comes from the crazy ceremonies, the camera panning across the team to see who will come out next...shots of the players in the booth after winning or losing. Even if the games are really high quality, I don't think you can really replicate the same thing with an online league imo.
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On May 19 2011 22:21 KristianJS wrote:
One of the reasons the GSTL shows so much team spirit is because all the players in both teams are sitting together at the venue cheering for their players, doing ceremonies against eachother etc. It would really be great if something like that could happen for foreigners too, but I guess due to teams living spread out it may be impossible.
Another thing is that they live and practice together and are basically a family.
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On May 19 2011 13:01 Chill wrote:
GSTL format requires 10 players, streamers, commentators, and referees sitting around for hours.
Normal teamleague doesn't.
What are u talking about,
For GSTL format u need 4 players for bo7 and 5 players for bo9, and im 100% every major team in EU and NA has even more than that.
Streamers, commentators and referees ? What tournament doesnt have them, even go4sc2 has them all, even craftcups and so did TSL and so does EG masters cup.
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i agree that GSTL is more exciting to watch than usual tournaments. its sad the reason for this is the preperation on 1on1 matchups, since cheese became such a big part of sc2 Bo/x...i like the idea of pro teams playing opponents they cant "counter" because of preperation and thereby have to improvise and react more. cheering for a team is really nice imo
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i always loved the proleague 'king of the hill' format, there was no better way for Hyuk to break through, i remember it as one of the most hilarious and epic happenings in SC BW. I loved it how all of the sudden this no name players came out, with only one goal : snipe bisu/flash/jaedong, and then succeed. Also the dramatic finals with reverse all kills simply made for an EPIC format. I would love it to return <3
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Part of the enjoyment is watching the ceremonies and bench player reactions etc. Clans are too spread out in the foreigner scene, and tournaments cannot be done in person. Hence, team leagues like EGMC become less prestigious, and are more of a clan war for money.
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i dont think a top team outside korea would ever get allkilled by a random (unknown) guy
all the people below the obvious topplayers are clearly worse otherwise they would make it through more qualifiers and smaller cups
in korea there's only one big tournament and it's really hard to get into/through code a, so many very good players remain unknown for longer than they should
but ofc, more leagues would be better =) and i do like the tgsl format
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we need the equilevant to the good old wc3l... it ran for like 15 seasons?
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On May 19 2011 13:01 Chill wrote:
GSTL format requires 10 players, streamers, commentators, and referees sitting around for hours.
Normal teamleague doesn't.
What is stopping a team league winners stays on at a live event like MLG?
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On May 19 2011 23:29 alepov wrote:
i dont think a top team outside korea would ever get allkilled by a random (unknown) guy
all the people below the obvious topplayers are clearly worse otherwise they would make it through more qualifiers and smaller cups
in korea there's only one big tournament and it's really hard to get into/through code a, so many very good players remain unknown for longer than they should
but ofc, more leagues would be better =) and i do like the tgsl format
Thorzain was relatively unknown, Happy (albeit well known from WC3) has just burst on the scene very impressively too. Cruncher?. Its possible. I like the idea Beasty, and also prefer that format to the EG cup.
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I think your idrea is very good. But i would like to see a liquid team league. Like TSL. Team Liquid starcraft 2 team league or something. And watch like TSL every weekend. With free stream. I trully beleive more people that GSTL will watch cuz now a starcraft fan has to pay GOM , NASL , MLG ... its gettin too expensive. So overall i think its doable and quite a nice idea. Lets hope team liquid considers it. Great post.
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On May 19 2011 23:29 alepov wrote:
i dont think a top team outside korea would ever get allkilled by a random (unknown) guy
all the people below the obvious topplayers are clearly worse otherwise they would make it through more qualifiers and smaller cups
in korea there's only one big tournament and it's really hard to get into/through code a, so many very good players remain unknown for longer than they should
but ofc, more leagues would be better =) and i do like the tgsl format
In SGL EG was all-killed by terran called PredY from team eSuba - even thought he might be known in EU I doubt many people in NA know him ---> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185064
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Why doesn't MLG start a team league you invite the teams of the players that come over in the exchange program they started. Would be pretty expensive but imagine oGs vs VT would be pretty cool.
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Well said. I agree, more team leagues! Fun for the players and for the fans.
One thing i would like tho(might be a bit off topic), is to hear/read the talk within the team when they choose their next player. Ofc thier oppenents doesnt get to hear/read how they are thinking, only the viewers and the casters.
This can be done in many ways, either you just bring the team leader on skype and he says who they are sending and why. Or you just put one team in a b.net chat channel and the casters join that channel and show it on the stream as players are discussing.
Im not sure whats the best option for this, i just think it would be very entertaining to watch, "No lets save Naniwa for Idra" etc ^^
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This is something thats been annoying me for a long time, there's a couple of team leagues but they are all 4x1v1 + 1x2v2 format. While this is a pretty fair format, the all-kill format is just THAT much more entertaining. I really hope there will be a foreign GSTL equivalent!
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On May 19 2011 11:21 Veritask wrote:
I don't think you need to change the format when it works. I think it's the best one out there as far as getting new players in while keeping the good players.
Sports generally get a system and keep it because it works.
The thing is, the format that tournaments like eg master cup uses doesnt really work, it's boring.
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Are there even 16 noteworthy teams in Korea?
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On May 20 2011 00:58 branflakes14 wrote:
Are there even 16 noteworthy teams in Korea?
Read the first post carefully.
edit:
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Basically, what we need is a WC3L for SC2.
.... Baschi? Niels? Shawn? Doso? cmon get it going!
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WC3L was similar to EG Masters in format (varying amounts of set 1v1/2v2's). I believe most of you are thinking of NGL (KotH format). Although a WC3L for sc2 would be awesome.
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WC3L's format was changed a couple of times. Anyways, I agree that a KotH-Style is the most exciting. What I meant tho, was the idea of having a "Champions-League" for SC2, run by the most experienced admin team out there.
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I love the GSTL as well but the entire premise of this post is flawed to me.
The GSL is a far more entertaining tournament that any others out there and that includes the TSL.
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United States4796 Posts
Regardless I think this would be fun.
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/facepalm did you ever watch GSTL?
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I welcome the idea but I think there is alot of new things going on atm and it is too soon to say what works and what doesn't and if there is room for more at this time. I'm sure many sponsors and descision makers have plenty of ideas and over time I think we will see plenty of different formats.
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What happend to the NGL one dudes, they did a good job with this format.
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Can think of 12 Noteworthy foreigner teams that have a roster to complete this.
Empire, Mouz, TeamLiquid, EG, Dignitas, Fnatic, Millenium, Sixjax, Complexity, Root, mym and FXO
The remaining 4 spots could be determined through a qualifier. This would give some up-and-coming teams the oportunity to show what they are made of!
Would be awesome to see something like this, preferly a league but a tournament would also be cool! I know there are other teams like mTw with players like Dimaga but they dont have a full roster to do something like this!
Someone with money / power, Make this happen!
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the OPs main question why isn't there one comes down to organisations i think. 'everyone' loves the korean formats of team leagues but in the online setting the question of servers come up. so far in the bid to grow american esports this has resulted in NA server favoritism. we can't blame them, the people behind the gcpl, nasl, egmc etc are putting in the work and for them this means they deserve the home ground advantage.
either there needs to be an agreement that 'for esports!' no longer means, for america, or some european organisations need to step and start making things happen. either backing a european advantage in their league, or promoting server switching to take the moral high ground and hopefully attract every high level team, rather than losing out on team of a watery nature
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Ahh I miss the days of the Wc3L... Just what you were looking for.
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Can people please read the OP? What beastyqt is asking for is a EU+NA team tournament with a system like the GSTL, something that has not been done with all the best teams + some lesser known teams outside of korean.
Allthough, my own opinion would be that a old school pro league system running over a long period of time would be the most fun. But I would not say no to a tournament that beasty is talking about. I think it would be more rewarding to the spectator than the team leagues we have seen and are watching atm.
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On May 20 2011 01:36 ArneX wrote:
What happend to the NGL one dudes, they did a good job with this format.
They didn't really have sponsors for both leagues 
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There are too much things happening at the moment, the scene is just overcrowded. You can basically connect at every hour of the day, and thanks to different hours time there are allways tournaments running. I really mean it is too much. Basically there are lots of events happening which should be absolutely awesome, but there's no audience, with 10 tournaments running every day no one can follow everything.
Take the StarsWars for exemple, it is incredibly great : 32 freaking great players, including for the first time top of China, big prize pool, finals held live in Shanghaï. So to be honest the only real difference with TSL on paper is a smaller prize pool, and still it doesn't find a "big" audience ...
If you want to have GSTL outside Korea, stop doing 20 team leagues that no one follows, get sponsors together and make something so huge that you will meet no concurrence. There's a lot of money to sponsor SC2 things at the moment, but it is way too widespread, better 1 tournament with 100k$ and 5 with 10k$ than 15 with 10k$.
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On May 20 2011 01:29 Beastyqt wrote: /facepalm did you ever watch GSTL?
Facepalm yourself, you missed my point.
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I would love to see a league of like 16 teams battle it out KOTH style weekly. That would be the best thing ever
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On May 20 2011 04:22 noproblem wrote:Facepalm yourself, you missed my point.
So what was your point here?
Only see Beasty explaining what he said in the OP again and again.
Would be great stuff to see something like this happen, would just feel so much more dynamic! Also I would look forward to see teams like rox.kis and empire in it.
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On May 20 2011 04:22 noproblem wrote:Facepalm yourself, you missed my point.
GCPL had predetermined players matchups and maps.
Beasty wants GSTL format. Player plays till he is defeated.
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while i agree, i dont know about being "bored" until next TSL. theres still IPL NASL MLGs etc. but more team leagues would definitely be cool.
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I agree completely, eg masters should be winners league style, wayyyyy more entertaining
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Pros have it hard enough to make money as it is, now you want to make them divide up potential winnings among their team? Well sure, it's not like the worse members of the team have a shot at the individual leagues anyways so the only place they'd be able to play would be individual leagues. Individual leagues have a habit of lowering the level of players though, since a team might just have one or two good players.
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On May 20 2011 09:09 obesechicken13 wrote:
Pros have it hard enough to make money as it is, now you want to make them divide up potential winnings among their team? Well sure, it's not like the worse members of the team have a shot at the individual leagues anyways so the only place they'd be able to play would be individual leagues. Individual leagues have a habit of lowering the level of players though, since a team might just have one or two good players.
this is a way to provide more winnings to teams, who pay the expenses of the players.
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Honestly to you guys talking about individuals having to split winnings and stuff...
People need to realize that starcraft isn't just about the players anymore... In fact, I would say its BARELY about the players if you want to see the direction e-sports is heading.
It's about the viewer.. the people who will tune in... who will sit through the commercials and justify the mere existence of endorsements for players in an online video game. The viewers are the bottom line in all of this, NOT the pro players. The only requirement for professional athletes in real sports is they have to have tiered levels of ability and they have to be significantly better than the average person to make it awesome to see. The NBA is bigger than Kobe and the NFL is bigger than any star quarterback... Adverstising dollars, TV deals, and more are what keeps professional athletes fed... not bonuses like the bonuses they get from winning the superbowl, world series, championship, etc.
If the only source of income pro-gamers had was from tournament winnings the whole industry wouldn't exist.
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On May 20 2011 09:29 Jayrod wrote:
Honestly to you guys talking about individuals having to split winnings and stuff...
People need to realize that starcraft isn't just about the players anymore... In fact, I would say its BARELY about the players if you want to see the direction e-sports is heading.
It's about the viewer.. the people who will tune in... who will sit through the commercials and justify the mere existence of endorsements for players in an online video game. The viewers are the bottom line in all of this, NOT the pro players. The only requirement for professional athletes in real sports is they have to have tiered levels of ability and they have to be significantly better than the average person to make it awesome to see. The NBA is bigger than Kobe and the NFL is bigger than any star quarterback... Adverstising dollars, TV deals, and more are what keeps professional athletes fed... not bonuses like the bonuses they get from winning the superbowl, world series, championship, etc.
If the only source of income pro-gamers had was from tournament winnings the whole industry wouldn't exist.
Fair enough. Progaming could do better financially with team leagues if it managed to improve viewer quality.
I still think team leagues tends to lower the overall level of play. As it stands, watching pro starcraft 2 players is already like watching old BW vods from 2007 or random IcCup replays of people B/A rank. The best starcraft 2 players make a lot of mistakes, they miss dropships on the minimap, overbuild gateways (like Combat Ex did in Chill vs Combat Ex in BW, two B players), call down six mules at a time, and rarely ever engage in any sort of map division or complex play.
I don't think watching grandmasters players trying to cheese wins off of Idra and Thorzain would be very entertaining.
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TSTL GOGO!! ^^
I think team leagues are more fun as both a player and a spectator. Unfortunately, many of the premier leagues (EG masters, GCPL, ESEA, etc.) have been using a system where 3 or 4 players from each team play a Bo3 series. This is far less enjoyable, since there are no all-kills, reverse all-kills, and so on, plus it is difficult to stream all the games. If the games are streamed in succession, the match will last 3+ hours, which is way too long.
When playing in a winner's league format, you feel a lot more involved as a team player, and yet you still feel as though you have control over the outcome. I know I personally play a lot better when I feel responsible to my team as well as myself, and I'm sure the players in GSTL feel the same way, which is why there are so many epic games.
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On May 20 2011 09:49 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 09:29 Jayrod wrote:
Honestly to you guys talking about individuals having to split winnings and stuff...
People need to realize that starcraft isn't just about the players anymore... In fact, I would say its BARELY about the players if you want to see the direction e-sports is heading.
It's about the viewer.. the people who will tune in... who will sit through the commercials and justify the mere existence of endorsements for players in an online video game. The viewers are the bottom line in all of this, NOT the pro players. The only requirement for professional athletes in real sports is they have to have tiered levels of ability and they have to be significantly better than the average person to make it awesome to see. The NBA is bigger than Kobe and the NFL is bigger than any star quarterback... Adverstising dollars, TV deals, and more are what keeps professional athletes fed... not bonuses like the bonuses they get from winning the superbowl, world series, championship, etc.
If the only source of income pro-gamers had was from tournament winnings the whole industry wouldn't exist. Fair enough. Progaming could do better financially with team leagues if it managed to improve viewer quality. I still think team leagues tends to lower the overall level of play. As it stands, watching pro starcraft 2 players is already like watching old BW vods from 2007 or random IcCup replays of people B/A rank. The best starcraft 2 players make a lot of mistakes, they miss dropships on the minimap, overbuild gateways (like Combat Ex did in Chill vs Combat Ex in BW, two B players), call down six mules at a time, and rarely ever engage in any sort of map division or complex play. I don't think watching grandmasters players trying to cheese wins off of Idra and Thorzain would be very entertaining.
If you don't think there are GM level players who can take legit games off IdrA and ThorZain you are mistaken.
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The reason team leagues are cool is because it's a more "casual" competiom from an audience's perspective. The builds are not tailor made and the match ups are a bit more chaotic. You get to watch fresh faces but they are gotten rid of quickly if they are sub par and surprise you if they aren't.
But the biggest cool factor of a team league is the sense of control you as a spectator feels when you yell at the screen telling the teams to bring out inca against the protoss opponent instead of supernova against DRG. There is emotional investment that is immediate. "oh damn, that guy is good at tvt, such and such team should send out ______" and when ______ is sent out, you think to yourself "awesome choice me! I'm going to beat the other team! Yeah!"
all without letting go of possible cool ace matches between the big names. The possibility of MVP vs MC or Alicia vs Bomber. We get to have those fights without waiting for the final 4 nor do we feel cheated if they face each other in the first round. Every team has an ace player that we would love to watch fight it out in the final game--and team leagues gaurantees at least 2 of them to reach the finals no matter what.
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There are a few issues I have with the OP - the different tournaments (GSL, TSL) are compared because of the quality of the games. There is nothing the tournament organiser can do regarding how the players play - they can't tell Inca to step it up. Imagine if Thorzain had lost 4-1, would people be hyping the TSL as much? Also, the OP is incorrect in saying that it is a bo1 in the group stages - this is not the case, it is sort of a modified bo3 since 1 loss would not eliminate someone (which is what will happen in a bo1).
Then the OP compares the GSTL and GSL and how they can't prepare for a certain opponent/matchup. I think this is incorrect - there are snipers in the team who will prepare especially for an opponent. Again, the OP is hyping up the GSTL because of the results of the matches (which is beyond the control of the organiser). Remember GSTL1? The games were mostly a disappointment except for the epic finals. If the GSTL had poor games, we wouldn't be hyping it up that much.
What I'm trying to say is that people need to say a tournament is better because it coincidentally had better games. The OP was asking for more "team leagues" because the GSTL happened to produce better games. If the GSL had produced better games, the OP would've asked for more individual leagues instead.
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I'd love to see team battles (showmatches if nothing else) at MLG, or other live events.
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I feel like the biggest problem with the GSL format is how fast it ends. You make it out of pools and you are in the RO16... That means you win 3 matchups and you are in the finals. When you consider that you can make the finals after besting 5 people. When you look at the recent finals, you have to wonder how someone who has never beaten a zerg player in a GSL match can make it to the finals.
Like most statistics the sample size dictates how random the results are, with the smaller the sample the bigger the random factor. I can't help but correlate the low number of players to the random results you see. The RO4 was awesome, but the finals were ass? That doesn't make sense without a lot of random being involved.
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Australia8532 Posts
I would agree that an "All-Kill" format for team leagues provides the most entertaining games for fans. It allows for incredible back stories such as what has happened with MMA and SlayerS.
The argument for GCPL and the EGMCSL is that by having a single player match up you see more players. So instead of just seeing IdrA all kill every week we get to see more of the EG roster. As a spectator, there is nothing more exciting than seeing a reverse all kill or a relatively no name player taking out legends and giants (MMA again last season.)
The first major organisation to do it and do it properly will realise the immense potential.
On May 20 2011 13:58 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:
After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.
Dude they dropped to Code A because they lost. Don't blame the system, they just weren't the best players on the day..
As much as i don't want this thread to devolve into an argument about the current state of the game; the high number of variables in SC2 doesn't guarantee the better player wins on the day. A Bo1 format can be incredibly luck based and can have huge implications. They did just change the format a little bit to make it easier to stay in Code S
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On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:
After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.
Dude they dropped to Code A because they lost. Don't blame the system, they just weren't the best players on the day..
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You really think OP missed GCPL when he PLAYED in it?
I agree with Beasty, every time I hear about a new team league I cross my fingers and check the format only to be disappointed.
The GSTL-format is awesome, the format that's used in tournaments like GCPL and EG Masters is bad.
Yes they are more practical and easier to organize but only at the cost of entertainment value, a completely wrong way to go about things IMO.
Winner stays format should definitely be the format of team leagues.
Otherwise it just feels like random matches artificially linked together.
It's just a semi-team competition.
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I wouldn't watch a foreign team league. I don't see the whole team being good like in Korea. I'd only be interested in watching couple of the best players in a team play.
You talk about cheese in the Code S groups, but has there actually been any? It's a big risk to take in a bo1.
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I'm glad you made the point about the whole Code-S groups stages being best of 1 (???). I tried to bring this up in the 'changes to GSL' thread but went ignored.
To me this is a significant problem, given that even the best of the best players have perhaps a 70% winrate, while good players might have a 60% winrate (these rates are probably even lower when top players play each other). I think that of all possible improvements to GSL, the most significant would be to change the best of 1 to at least a best of 3.
Anyways, I can rave on more about this if anyone wants..
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On May 20 2011 13:58 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:
After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.
Dude they dropped to Code A because they lost. Don't blame the system, they just weren't the best players on the day..
How many times have you seen the better player drop the first game only to come back to win 3-1 or 4-2 or something? Bo1 is a pretty bad indicator of skill, just like in Poker you don't want to have a headsup with 1500 rolls with 500 BB, but with 10BB it already is a pretty decent indication of skill.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51485 Posts
On May 20 2011 20:24 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 13:58 FataLe wrote:On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:
After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.
Dude they dropped to Code A because they lost. Don't blame the system, they just weren't the best players on the day.. How many times have you seen the better player drop the first game only to come back to win 3-1 or 4-2 or something? Bo1 is a pretty bad indicator of skill, just like in Poker you don't want to have a headsup with 1500 rolls with 500 BB, but with 10BB it already is a pretty decent indication of skill.
Any top level proffesional can beat another proffesional in a best of 1 game match up, plain and simple, maybe even a scrub could beat a proffesional in a best of 1. But anyway, the reason the better players come up from code A and the weaker ones stay in it or drop out of it, is due to the Bo3 system (even the up and down are best of 3s) they use. But you hit the nail on the head with the silly Bo1 system they use in code S and Bo3 in code A crazy.
I would love to see some proper GSTL league outside of Korea, easy to do online (maybe not the best suited way to do it due to lag issues but the cheaper option) EG Masters Cup is trying to make it but its a small scale at the moment. Maybe they can provide the kickstart for it.
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Well you can watch the SC2CL (Starcraft 2 Clan Lague), the successor of the famous bwcl.
Clans competing:
Team Empire MultiGaming,
SFTO eSports,
ESC.ICY-BOX,
Cybernation,
eSuba.INTEL,
MeetYourMakers,
Team Dignitas,
RoX.KIS.SC2,
Alien Invasion,
3D.FastVPS,
Online Kingdom,
Praetoriani
Playday is every Sunday evening. 20:00 CET.
Link: http://starcraft2.ingame.de/sc2cl
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You could also watch the EG Masters Cup, which is also a Team League.
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If you want a foreign "GSTL" i guess you will have to wait .... Its not an easy task to coordinate whole teams with regular playdays all over the world.
I think if NASL turns out to be a huge success, then you can think about a team league.
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I wish EG masters cup was setup like that. I think the x3 BO 3 with a 2v2 is really terrible.
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Completely agree! Gstl is my.favorite tournament by far!! Though a big part why I love GSTL are the ceremonies haha. Online you just wouldn't have those emotions. However if the tournament is big enough, maybe final 4 can go on LAN and entertain us haha
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On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.I actually look forward to GSTL more than the GSL itself, it has interesting system - even though its BO1 its much more fun to watch because players cant prepare for certain opponent and prepare tactics for specific matchup and it really brings out team spirit. We get to see players who are unknown to public all-kill enemy teams and we get to see all their matchups in couple of hours and we just see how GOOD is the player overall. Even the worse player can beat the better one with prepairing for BO3 with 2x cheese or just blind countering his playstyle and hoping it will work, while in this kind of system..I wont say its not possible but its just less likely to happen. If we look at TSL, not only the players make the tournament as good as TSL was, there were far better players than some that qualified for TSL but just hype, organization, prize pool, casters and really nice editing made TSL best online tournament ever. There are many many team-leagues going on at this moment but for me at least they just...arent really fun to watch I dont feel the team spirit in them and it feels just like another team-league there is. I played team-league called SGL (not sure how many people saw it) with my team Empire and it was best league for me to play because you never know which opponent you will get next, you cant prepare for it and you dont know if your opponent will cheese or not which usually results in big macro games because none of players want to lose from cheese in BO1 and after each game for example if you win - you discuss with your team mates which next opponent they might send and which kind of playstyle he got and so on. You have to think which players you are sending after first loss or which player you are sending to play first overall, do you want to send your best player on start? do you want to keep him last? Thats the team spirit that I wish there are in other team leagues but there arent - they are just arranged matches with 3/4x bo3's that are just as any other bo3 in my eyes (I might be wrong ) So bottom line is, why isnt there team-league like GSTL outside korea? Lets be honest everyone is "bored" now after TSL, there wont be any other tournament like TSL any time soon (until next TSL) so why cant we have foreign GSTL meanwhile that would be hyped just as TSL with awesome casters and best foreign teams out there? Dont tell me you wouldnt like to see for example well known teams like EG, mouz or Dignitas getting all-killed from some player that 99% of people never even heard of him. My suggestion is next: make a 16 team "GSTL" that would be played in BO7 single elimination with seeds of teams. Why 16 you ask? why not? We have time till next TSL 16 teams would mean taking 8 teams from NA and 8 teams from EU - maybe seed 2 teams from NA and 2 seeds from EU and make the bracket in round one something like NA vs EU - EU VS NA - NA VS EU - because if I was viewer I would rather see EU vs NA team fighting than EU vs EU or NA vs NA because most likely we have seen those teams play between each other already. I think with 16 teams no good team would be left behind so I dont think qualifications would be needed for this kind of "GSTL". There are a lot of solo leagues and team leagues now that are all played on NA server which results in many eastern european players and teams not participating in them because of big delay when playing from EU to NA server which makes me very sad because some of best EU players are from eastern europe. I know you will say - but then NA will have this problem - they might but it probably wont be as bad as it would be for EU > NA since internet in eastern european countries is worse and if both players agree matches can be played on NA as well. Oh and about streaming the "GSTL" as well I would like it to be like TSL was, put it twice a week - on saturday team 1 vs team 2 and on sunday team 3 vs team 4. That means we would have 4 weeks for Ro16, another 2 weeks for Ro8 and then Ro4 could be another 2 weeks (1 CW per week) and then the finals which is (if my math isnt terrible) 9 weeks and after those 9 weeks are done gogo TSL 4 qualifications? Post below what you think of this and would you like to see this kind of team-league instead of regular ones! ♥ Beasty
I'll just talk about the first paragraph because this is quite the wall. EDIT: nvm I'll comment on everything.
1) You acknowledge that the format is changing, yet you are complaining about the format anyway... seems like a waste of time.
2) You don't want the same players, yet don't want the good players to drop to make room for better players... all while keeping the same high quality (I will get back to this in a bit). Seems contradicting.
3) Yes the GSTL format is good. Although the unknown players aren't something that will happen often, it is just due to our ignorance. Now we know about MMA, Ryung, DRG, etc. There won't always be a new player to take the mantle. It will become much rarer (wow this is a word) in the very near future.
4) TSL was good. Very well orchestrated.
Now this is where things fall apart
5) 16 Teams?!?!?!?!? Who exactly are they going to be? You want high quality yet you want sixteen teams? I can barely name 16 players to be able to hang with the Koreans, never mind 16 teams... I'm not saying it is a bad idea, but for someone who is very critical of the GSL/Korean player quality, does it not make sense to only have the best of the best foreigners play? Name me 8 teams on both sides? Name me 5 on both sides...
6) You don't want to participate in the NA team leagues because of lag? What if the NA teams don't want to participate in the Euro team leagues because of lag? I know you touched on this, but you do realize that European internet >>>>>>>>> NA right? That argument doesn't really stand. If anything, you can find a way to switch back and forth or w.e.
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I could definitely field a team of jobbers for this! Seriously though someone needs to make a North American team league that will compete one or two nights a week. It would be so sick. I would buy a ticket every time.
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On May 21 2011 02:01 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.I actually look forward to GSTL more than the GSL itself, it has interesting system - even though its BO1 its much more fun to watch because players cant prepare for certain opponent and prepare tactics for specific matchup and it really brings out team spirit. We get to see players who are unknown to public all-kill enemy teams and we get to see all their matchups in couple of hours and we just see how GOOD is the player overall. Even the worse player can beat the better one with prepairing for BO3 with 2x cheese or just blind countering his playstyle and hoping it will work, while in this kind of system..I wont say its not possible but its just less likely to happen. If we look at TSL, not only the players make the tournament as good as TSL was, there were far better players than some that qualified for TSL but just hype, organization, prize pool, casters and really nice editing made TSL best online tournament ever. There are many many team-leagues going on at this moment but for me at least they just...arent really fun to watch I dont feel the team spirit in them and it feels just like another team-league there is. I played team-league called SGL (not sure how many people saw it) with my team Empire and it was best league for me to play because you never know which opponent you will get next, you cant prepare for it and you dont know if your opponent will cheese or not which usually results in big macro games because none of players want to lose from cheese in BO1 and after each game for example if you win - you discuss with your team mates which next opponent they might send and which kind of playstyle he got and so on. You have to think which players you are sending after first loss or which player you are sending to play first overall, do you want to send your best player on start? do you want to keep him last? Thats the team spirit that I wish there are in other team leagues but there arent - they are just arranged matches with 3/4x bo3's that are just as any other bo3 in my eyes (I might be wrong ) So bottom line is, why isnt there team-league like GSTL outside korea? Lets be honest everyone is "bored" now after TSL, there wont be any other tournament like TSL any time soon (until next TSL) so why cant we have foreign GSTL meanwhile that would be hyped just as TSL with awesome casters and best foreign teams out there? Dont tell me you wouldnt like to see for example well known teams like EG, mouz or Dignitas getting all-killed from some player that 99% of people never even heard of him. My suggestion is next: make a 16 team "GSTL" that would be played in BO7 single elimination with seeds of teams. Why 16 you ask? why not? We have time till next TSL 16 teams would mean taking 8 teams from NA and 8 teams from EU - maybe seed 2 teams from NA and 2 seeds from EU and make the bracket in round one something like NA vs EU - EU VS NA - NA VS EU - because if I was viewer I would rather see EU vs NA team fighting than EU vs EU or NA vs NA because most likely we have seen those teams play between each other already. I think with 16 teams no good team would be left behind so I dont think qualifications would be needed for this kind of "GSTL". There are a lot of solo leagues and team leagues now that are all played on NA server which results in many eastern european players and teams not participating in them because of big delay when playing from EU to NA server which makes me very sad because some of best EU players are from eastern europe. I know you will say - but then NA will have this problem - they might but it probably wont be as bad as it would be for EU > NA since internet in eastern european countries is worse and if both players agree matches can be played on NA as well. Oh and about streaming the "GSTL" as well I would like it to be like TSL was, put it twice a week - on saturday team 1 vs team 2 and on sunday team 3 vs team 4. That means we would have 4 weeks for Ro16, another 2 weeks for Ro8 and then Ro4 could be another 2 weeks (1 CW per week) and then the finals which is (if my math isnt terrible) 9 weeks and after those 9 weeks are done gogo TSL 4 qualifications? Post below what you think of this and would you like to see this kind of team-league instead of regular ones! ♥ Beasty I'll just talk about the first paragraph because this is quite the wall. EDIT: nvm I'll comment on everything. 1) You acknowledge that the format is changing, yet you are complaining about the format anyway... seems like a waste of time. 2) You don't want the same players, yet don't want the good players to drop to make room for better players... all while keeping the same high quality (I will get back to this in a bit). Seems contradicting. 3) Yes the GSTL format is good. Although the unknown players aren't something that will happen often, it is just due to our ignorance. Now we know about MMA, Ryung, DRG, etc. There won't always be a new player to take the mantle. It will become much rarer (wow this is a word) in the very near future. 4) TSL was good. Very well orchestrated. Now this is where things fall apart 5) 16 Teams?!?!?!?!? Who exactly are they going to be? You want high quality yet you want sixteen teams? I can barely name 16 players to be able to hang with the Koreans, never mind 16 teams... I'm not saying it is a bad idea, but for someone who is very critical of the GSL/Korean player quality, does it not make sense to only have the best of the best foreigners play? Name me 8 teams on both sides? Name me 5 on both sides... 6) You don't want to participate in the NA team leagues because of lag? What if the NA teams don't want to participate in the Euro team leagues because of lag? I know you touched on this, but you do realize that European internet >>>>>>>>> NA right? That argument doesn't really stand. If anything, you can find a way to switch back and forth or w.e.
1) Winning GSL after 5-6 rounds is stupid yes, there should be at least 10+ rounds, why? Because players like Inca get to finals without deserving it.
2) After all the GSL's the players started changing now with Ryang, Losira, MMA, Bomber, etc before that they were same players.
3) Unknown players coming out will happen because players improve all the time.
5) I dont understand why are you comparing Korea to foreign SC2 lol.
I dont know where I wrote that Koreans suck or anything like that except Inca vs NesTea finals which was true.
If GSTL was to pick teams based on "skill" like you are saying we would never see Slayers or MVP because they are "bad" from your words.
I'll try naming teams on top of my head but I dont know many of NA teams, anyway:
NA teams: EG, ROOT, sixjax, coL, Fnatic, vVv, VT and FXO(?) - I dont know if there are more teams that are better than some mentioned but there you go 8 teams and if you look at GSTL and players in teams you probably said to yourself "this is easy oGs or IM going to win every season without any doubt" but look at MVP and Slayers.
EU teams: Empire, MYM, mouz, Dignitas, roxkis, Milenium, ESC, SFTO, imba.FXO Ai, eSuba - there are probably more but I mentioned 8 already.
If people dont find some NA teams strong enough there are plenty of teams from EU to pick from. Also not sure if Liquid would participate because players are living..everywhere
6) If you read what I wrote, which you clearly didnt I said EASTERN EUROPEAN internet is bad and that would make 1/3 of EU teams not play at their fullest potential or not play at all. I know a lot of players from NA that play on EU and I never heard one of them say "omg so much lag I cant play".
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On May 21 2011 02:37 Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 02:01 mprs wrote:On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.I actually look forward to GSTL more than the GSL itself, it has interesting system - even though its BO1 its much more fun to watch because players cant prepare for certain opponent and prepare tactics for specific matchup and it really brings out team spirit. We get to see players who are unknown to public all-kill enemy teams and we get to see all their matchups in couple of hours and we just see how GOOD is the player overall. Even the worse player can beat the better one with prepairing for BO3 with 2x cheese or just blind countering his playstyle and hoping it will work, while in this kind of system..I wont say its not possible but its just less likely to happen. If we look at TSL, not only the players make the tournament as good as TSL was, there were far better players than some that qualified for TSL but just hype, organization, prize pool, casters and really nice editing made TSL best online tournament ever. There are many many team-leagues going on at this moment but for me at least they just...arent really fun to watch I dont feel the team spirit in them and it feels just like another team-league there is. I played team-league called SGL (not sure how many people saw it) with my team Empire and it was best league for me to play because you never know which opponent you will get next, you cant prepare for it and you dont know if your opponent will cheese or not which usually results in big macro games because none of players want to lose from cheese in BO1 and after each game for example if you win - you discuss with your team mates which next opponent they might send and which kind of playstyle he got and so on. You have to think which players you are sending after first loss or which player you are sending to play first overall, do you want to send your best player on start? do you want to keep him last? Thats the team spirit that I wish there are in other team leagues but there arent - they are just arranged matches with 3/4x bo3's that are just as any other bo3 in my eyes (I might be wrong ) So bottom line is, why isnt there team-league like GSTL outside korea? Lets be honest everyone is "bored" now after TSL, there wont be any other tournament like TSL any time soon (until next TSL) so why cant we have foreign GSTL meanwhile that would be hyped just as TSL with awesome casters and best foreign teams out there? Dont tell me you wouldnt like to see for example well known teams like EG, mouz or Dignitas getting all-killed from some player that 99% of people never even heard of him. My suggestion is next: make a 16 team "GSTL" that would be played in BO7 single elimination with seeds of teams. Why 16 you ask? why not? We have time till next TSL 16 teams would mean taking 8 teams from NA and 8 teams from EU - maybe seed 2 teams from NA and 2 seeds from EU and make the bracket in round one something like NA vs EU - EU VS NA - NA VS EU - because if I was viewer I would rather see EU vs NA team fighting than EU vs EU or NA vs NA because most likely we have seen those teams play between each other already. I think with 16 teams no good team would be left behind so I dont think qualifications would be needed for this kind of "GSTL". There are a lot of solo leagues and team leagues now that are all played on NA server which results in many eastern european players and teams not participating in them because of big delay when playing from EU to NA server which makes me very sad because some of best EU players are from eastern europe. I know you will say - but then NA will have this problem - they might but it probably wont be as bad as it would be for EU > NA since internet in eastern european countries is worse and if both players agree matches can be played on NA as well. Oh and about streaming the "GSTL" as well I would like it to be like TSL was, put it twice a week - on saturday team 1 vs team 2 and on sunday team 3 vs team 4. That means we would have 4 weeks for Ro16, another 2 weeks for Ro8 and then Ro4 could be another 2 weeks (1 CW per week) and then the finals which is (if my math isnt terrible) 9 weeks and after those 9 weeks are done gogo TSL 4 qualifications? Post below what you think of this and would you like to see this kind of team-league instead of regular ones! ♥ Beasty I'll just talk about the first paragraph because this is quite the wall. EDIT: nvm I'll comment on everything. 1) You acknowledge that the format is changing, yet you are complaining about the format anyway... seems like a waste of time. 2) You don't want the same players, yet don't want the good players to drop to make room for better players... all while keeping the same high quality (I will get back to this in a bit). Seems contradicting. 3) Yes the GSTL format is good. Although the unknown players aren't something that will happen often, it is just due to our ignorance. Now we know about MMA, Ryung, DRG, etc. There won't always be a new player to take the mantle. It will become much rarer (wow this is a word) in the very near future. 4) TSL was good. Very well orchestrated. Now this is where things fall apart 5) 16 Teams?!?!?!?!? Who exactly are they going to be? You want high quality yet you want sixteen teams? I can barely name 16 players to be able to hang with the Koreans, never mind 16 teams... I'm not saying it is a bad idea, but for someone who is very critical of the GSL/Korean player quality, does it not make sense to only have the best of the best foreigners play? Name me 8 teams on both sides? Name me 5 on both sides... 6) You don't want to participate in the NA team leagues because of lag? What if the NA teams don't want to participate in the Euro team leagues because of lag? I know you touched on this, but you do realize that European internet >>>>>>>>> NA right? That argument doesn't really stand. If anything, you can find a way to switch back and forth or w.e. 1) Winning GSL after 5-6 rounds is stupid yes, there should be at least 10+ rounds, why? Because players like Inca get to finals without deserving it. 2) After all the GSL's the players started changing now with Ryang, Losira, MMA, Bomber, etc before that they were same players. 3) Unknown players coming out will happen because players improve all the time. 5) I dont understand why are you comparing Korea to foreign SC2 lol. I dont know where I wrote that Koreans suck or anything like that except Inca vs NesTea finals which was true. If GSTL was to pick teams based on "skill" like you are saying we would never see Slayers or MVP because they are "bad" from your words. I'll try naming teams on top of my head but I dont know many of NA teams, anyway: NA teams: EG, ROOT, sixjax, coL, Fnatic, vVv, VT and FXO(?) - I dont know if there are more teams that are better than some mentioned but there you go 8 teams and if you look at GSTL and players in teams you probably said to yourself "this is easy oGs or IM going to win every season without any doubt" but look at MVP and Slayers. EU teams: Empire, MYM, mouz, Dignitas, roxkis, Milenium, ESC, SFTO, imba.FXO Ai, eSuba - there are probably more but I mentioned 8 already. If people dont find some NA teams strong enough there are plenty of teams from EU to pick from. Also not sure if Liquid would participate because players are living..everywhere 6) If you read what I wrote, which you clearly didnt I said EASTERN EUROPEAN internet is bad and that would make 1/3 of EU teams not play at their fullest potential or not play at all. I know a lot of players from NA that play on EU and I never heard one of them say "omg so much lag I cant play".
rly hard not to start flaming, even knowing how you like that ingame but ok:
1) 10+ rounds ? what players plz ? and inca not deserved it ? cause his rape 3-0? against nada was ... what ? luck ? he raped all expect zergs jaeh that can happen that nestea was to good for him but he deserved the final after beat such a line from good players ...
2) gstl was always new ones ... just not all of them was strong and lost horrible their games ... there are just more players good then YOU know
3) code a send more "unknown" players in gsl then gstl ...
5) you trolling no need answer here
6) yes we know you from east europe and we know your internet is bad but plz ... dont general it .. i know more players with good internet from there then from us ... perhaps you not hear anything from us players cause they simply not want to talk to you cause you just flame everyone ?
stop whining plz and tolling and really ...
ps @ mods: i have birthday today let me troll a bit ...
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I really enjoy the GSL but I agree the format is messed up and I'm glad they're changing it, but what really has me excited is the huge 64 man gsl tournament, which I don't remember the name of. The main reason I am excited for that is because I'm a terran and well a lot of my favorite terrans arethere. I enjoy the GSTL alot as well, shows the new talent and then you see how they preform in the team league. But I agree that there should be a huge team league outside of korea!
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Meh since its online it wouldnt be nearly as interesting as the GSTL. Also GSL has changed its format so it is alot harder to get knocked out of Code S i dont know if you were aware of this. If your really bad your still going to get knocked out otherwise it pretty much ensures the better players stay in, it has half as many players going to the up and down matches.
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On May 21 2011 02:37 Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 02:01 mprs wrote:On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.I actually look forward to GSTL more than the GSL itself, it has interesting system - even though its BO1 its much more fun to watch because players cant prepare for certain opponent and prepare tactics for specific matchup and it really brings out team spirit. We get to see players who are unknown to public all-kill enemy teams and we get to see all their matchups in couple of hours and we just see how GOOD is the player overall. Even the worse player can beat the better one with prepairing for BO3 with 2x cheese or just blind countering his playstyle and hoping it will work, while in this kind of system..I wont say its not possible but its just less likely to happen. If we look at TSL, not only the players make the tournament as good as TSL was, there were far better players than some that qualified for TSL but just hype, organization, prize pool, casters and really nice editing made TSL best online tournament ever. There are many many team-leagues going on at this moment but for me at least they just...arent really fun to watch I dont feel the team spirit in them and it feels just like another team-league there is. I played team-league called SGL (not sure how many people saw it) with my team Empire and it was best league for me to play because you never know which opponent you will get next, you cant prepare for it and you dont know if your opponent will cheese or not which usually results in big macro games because none of players want to lose from cheese in BO1 and after each game for example if you win - you discuss with your team mates which next opponent they might send and which kind of playstyle he got and so on. You have to think which players you are sending after first loss or which player you are sending to play first overall, do you want to send your best player on start? do you want to keep him last? Thats the team spirit that I wish there are in other team leagues but there arent - they are just arranged matches with 3/4x bo3's that are just as any other bo3 in my eyes (I might be wrong ) So bottom line is, why isnt there team-league like GSTL outside korea? Lets be honest everyone is "bored" now after TSL, there wont be any other tournament like TSL any time soon (until next TSL) so why cant we have foreign GSTL meanwhile that would be hyped just as TSL with awesome casters and best foreign teams out there? Dont tell me you wouldnt like to see for example well known teams like EG, mouz or Dignitas getting all-killed from some player that 99% of people never even heard of him. My suggestion is next: make a 16 team "GSTL" that would be played in BO7 single elimination with seeds of teams. Why 16 you ask? why not? We have time till next TSL 16 teams would mean taking 8 teams from NA and 8 teams from EU - maybe seed 2 teams from NA and 2 seeds from EU and make the bracket in round one something like NA vs EU - EU VS NA - NA VS EU - because if I was viewer I would rather see EU vs NA team fighting than EU vs EU or NA vs NA because most likely we have seen those teams play between each other already. I think with 16 teams no good team would be left behind so I dont think qualifications would be needed for this kind of "GSTL". There are a lot of solo leagues and team leagues now that are all played on NA server which results in many eastern european players and teams not participating in them because of big delay when playing from EU to NA server which makes me very sad because some of best EU players are from eastern europe. I know you will say - but then NA will have this problem - they might but it probably wont be as bad as it would be for EU > NA since internet in eastern european countries is worse and if both players agree matches can be played on NA as well. Oh and about streaming the "GSTL" as well I would like it to be like TSL was, put it twice a week - on saturday team 1 vs team 2 and on sunday team 3 vs team 4. That means we would have 4 weeks for Ro16, another 2 weeks for Ro8 and then Ro4 could be another 2 weeks (1 CW per week) and then the finals which is (if my math isnt terrible) 9 weeks and after those 9 weeks are done gogo TSL 4 qualifications? Post below what you think of this and would you like to see this kind of team-league instead of regular ones! ♥ Beasty I'll just talk about the first paragraph because this is quite the wall. EDIT: nvm I'll comment on everything. 1) You acknowledge that the format is changing, yet you are complaining about the format anyway... seems like a waste of time. 2) You don't want the same players, yet don't want the good players to drop to make room for better players... all while keeping the same high quality (I will get back to this in a bit). Seems contradicting. 3) Yes the GSTL format is good. Although the unknown players aren't something that will happen often, it is just due to our ignorance. Now we know about MMA, Ryung, DRG, etc. There won't always be a new player to take the mantle. It will become much rarer (wow this is a word) in the very near future. 4) TSL was good. Very well orchestrated. Now this is where things fall apart 5) 16 Teams?!?!?!?!? Who exactly are they going to be? You want high quality yet you want sixteen teams? I can barely name 16 players to be able to hang with the Koreans, never mind 16 teams... I'm not saying it is a bad idea, but for someone who is very critical of the GSL/Korean player quality, does it not make sense to only have the best of the best foreigners play? Name me 8 teams on both sides? Name me 5 on both sides... 6) You don't want to participate in the NA team leagues because of lag? What if the NA teams don't want to participate in the Euro team leagues because of lag? I know you touched on this, but you do realize that European internet >>>>>>>>> NA right? That argument doesn't really stand. If anything, you can find a way to switch back and forth or w.e. 1) Winning GSL after 5-6 rounds is stupid yes, there should be at least 10+ rounds, why? Because players like Inca get to finals without deserving it. 2) After all the GSL's the players started changing now with Ryang, Losira, MMA, Bomber, etc before that they were same players. 3) Unknown players coming out will happen because players improve all the time. 5) I dont understand why are you comparing Korea to foreign SC2 lol. I dont know where I wrote that Koreans suck or anything like that except Inca vs NesTea finals which was true. If GSTL was to pick teams based on "skill" like you are saying we would never see Slayers or MVP because they are "bad" from your words. I'll try naming teams on top of my head but I dont know many of NA teams, anyway: NA teams: EG, ROOT, sixjax, coL, Fnatic, vVv, VT and FXO(?) - I dont know if there are more teams that are better than some mentioned but there you go 8 teams and if you look at GSTL and players in teams you probably said to yourself "this is easy oGs or IM going to win every season without any doubt" but look at MVP and Slayers. EU teams: Empire, MYM, mouz, Dignitas, roxkis, Milenium, ESC, SFTO, imba.FXO Ai, eSuba - there are probably more but I mentioned 8 already. If people dont find some NA teams strong enough there are plenty of teams from EU to pick from. Also not sure if Liquid would participate because players are living..everywhere 6) If you read what I wrote, which you clearly didnt I said EASTERN EUROPEAN internet is bad and that would make 1/3 of EU teams not play at their fullest potential or not play at all. I know a lot of players from NA that play on EU and I never heard one of them say "omg so much lag I cant play".
So the TSL is great, and the GSL sucks, yet they have the same amount of rounds and it is actually harder to get out of a group stage because you have to prepare for more than one opponent and you dont know exactly who. I dont really see how this makes much sense considering the winner of the TSL has to play the same amount of rounds to get to the final as the GSL. Why are you only complaining about the GSL then? Inca got lucky on his brackets and made it to the finals , easily the same thing could have happened in the TSL it didnt, but the format allows for it.
I dont see how yoou can say the GSL format is so bad but the TSL's is awesome. sure there round of 32's are different but beyond that its the same and i would argue that it is harder to get out of group stages and beyond the round of 32 its is exactly the same. Also it is much harder to get to the round of 32 for code s (you have to go through a whole other tournament and yoou dont get 15 chances to get into the tournament through open tournaments) I just dont really see how it makes sense.
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I completely agree Beasty and when The IPL was still just speculation Proleague implied to me to be exactly what you are saying, but one of the main reason i think the GSTL is so entertaining is the live aspect. the trash talking, the coaches talking with players between rounds, the whole team chilling on camera watching the match with us makes it more exciting. Internet teamleagues are just lackluster to me from a spectator point of view. I think instead of the IPL competing directly with the NASL, them moving for a team league almost directly like the GSTL, but for European/NA teams would have been perfect and probably more successful.
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Team leagues are much more epic in person, where things like win ceremonies and actual physical reactions to wins and losses are seen, along with a live audience cheering. Then you have the fact that Korean rosters are much bigger than EU/NA rosters, so you always get the few players in GSTL who you've never heard of playing amazingly, but in foreigner teams the rosters are small and the team budget low enough that pretty much everyone on a good/well-known team is a known quantity, there are no surprises or one-matchup heroes.
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I still think the game's a bit too "coin tossy" to have real cred yet. Nobody would like tennis if, say, random nobodies were always beating Nadal and Federer. I just hope future expansions will raise the skill ceiling so real superstars can actually stand out.
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On May 20 2011 20:33 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 20:24 Shikyo wrote:On May 20 2011 13:58 FataLe wrote:On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:
After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.
Dude they dropped to Code A because they lost. Don't blame the system, they just weren't the best players on the day.. How many times have you seen the better player drop the first game only to come back to win 3-1 or 4-2 or something? Bo1 is a pretty bad indicator of skill, just like in Poker you don't want to have a headsup with 1500 rolls with 500 BB, but with 10BB it already is a pretty decent indication of skill. Any top level proffesional can beat another proffesional in a best of 1 game match up, plain and simple, maybe even a scrub could beat a proffesional in a best of 1. But anyway, the reason the better players come up from code A and the weaker ones stay in it or drop out of it, is due to the Bo3 system (even the up and down are best of 3s) they use. But you hit the nail on the head with the silly Bo1 system they use in code S and Bo3 in code A crazy. I would love to see some proper GSTL league outside of Korea, easy to do online (maybe not the best suited way to do it due to lag issues but the cheaper option) EG Masters Cup is trying to make it but its a small scale at the moment. Maybe they can provide the kickstart for it.
So true i beat sheth in a custom game a few months back but really i just got lucky going air and he wasnt prepared. im only in diamond but there is no way i would normally stand a chance against him if we had continued playing like it was a best of 3 he would have proceeded to smash me i just got lucky.
I think the new group stages will be much better though for GSL have yoou guys looked at the new format, its following the MSL system its still group stages but its much harder to drop out of code s now unless you are for sure worst in the group (more games are played in the group now)
The MSL format has worked for years and i honestly havent heard to much cristiscm about it hopefully it will be much better for the GSL too
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On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:
Dont tell me you wouldnt like to see for example well known teams like EG, mouz or Dignitas getting all-killed from some player that 99% of people never even heard of him.
You forgot a bit difference between foreign and Korean scene, the amount of tournaments. You see unknown people all-killing stuff in the GSTL cause there are not enough tournaments for them to be known ; that kind of surprises won't happen in the foreign scene because of the amount of opportunities good players have to get known winning tournaments or placing decent, good players from each team are already known
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On May 25 2011 00:18 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:
Dont tell me you wouldnt like to see for example well known teams like EG, mouz or Dignitas getting all-killed from some player that 99% of people never even heard of him.
You forgot a bit difference between foreign and Korean scene, the amount of tournaments. You see unknown people all-killing stuff in the GSTL cause there are not enough tournaments for them to be known ; that kind of surprises won't happen in the foreign scene because of the amount of opportunities good players have to get known winning tournaments or placing decent, good players from each team are already known
What makes you think there isnt another "Thorzain" around there? I dont remember Thorzain owning weekly online tournaments before TSL
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As an observer i personally don't find team games nearly as interesting or exciting. They seem very fragile due to the fact that a large blow to a single ally will create a very big lead to the attacking team. Team games end up being drawn out for long after they are won/lost...
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On May 25 2011 01:47 TempeRr wrote:
As an observer i personally don't find team games nearly as interesting or exciting. They seem very fragile due to the fact that a large blow to a single ally will create a very big lead to the attacking team. Team games end up being drawn out for long after they are won/lost...
Team league not team game.
The idea is awesome, love the format, but the biggest problem is that it's not live and in person. Half of the entertainment value of the GSTL are the reactions and ceremonies. The games are great, the format is great, but it loses some of the magic if it's played online. One of the advantages of South Korea being so small and localized.
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Couldn't the OP add a TL;DR? Thats a massive block of text :/
User was warned for this post
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It's too simplistic to blame GSL for having boring finals and praise GSTL for having great ones. Most of that is sheer luck. Team league formats do happen for more upsets because unknown players have a relative advantage, they get to snipe the better players without being known themselves really. Overall i think GSL is much better then GSTL though as it aren't bo1's. Players can adjust during the series and prepare in advance and in my mind the quality of the games is much better though last finals were just unluckily very poor.
TSL was also just very lucky with a great finals, stuff like that can't be prepared and is not the result of a good tournament it's sheer randomness.
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On May 26 2011 01:14 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:
Couldn't the OP add a TL;DR? Thats a massive block of text :/
User was warned for this post
you've gotta be kidding. what are you, 12?
good point beasty, in w3 times there was almost always some tournament with so called 'korean' format with 4 players choosed from both sides, old 4K would roll them usually with only one player like grubby, but it's really interesting format and i sure do miss it in sc2 :< thats a shame its used only in gstl and unfortunately i doubt we will see it soon, as i dont think TL is planning on adding any form of tournament other than tsl, and with eg team league already decided on format (at least for this season) they probably wont change anything at all.
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Agreed there needs to be an all kill format team league
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I agree with some of the sentiments above, that the all-kill format would not shine as well in an online tournament, but it works great at GSTL though.
Watching, say, IdrA just all-kill, say, coL, might be fun yeah. But put like Naniwa just all killing coL, or Sixjax, or something. Over the internet. Wouldn't be as good a format in my opinion.
The EG MCS is a great tournament, but I really feel like the organisation of the VODs is a massive barrier to entry. Often I just can't be arsed to search through the archives on blip, work out which week/day I'm at, and they're not even in chronological order. So I just click GSL.
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I really like the idea of getting a team league like GSTL and also to have more things to watch before TSL4. Imo the team leagues are great and i think it is fun for the players to compete in too.
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Well, i understand what you guys are talking about making a "TSTL" (for example) would be awesome but remember the TSL is a internet tournament and only the finals are at the US. We always see players of europe and north america and even Catz (hahaha ;D) playing through the internet at NASL, TSL and a lot more tourneys, you guys are thinking about a tournament with EPIC proportions for the Starcraft 2 outside of the Korea. I don't know, if team liquid or any other team/league can make something at least close to the proportion of the GSTL and all "lan" games streamed it would be unforgetable for everyone in here. Am i right ?
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On May 26 2011 18:46 Deadeight wrote:
I agree with some of the sentiments above, that the all-kill format would not shine as well in an online tournament, but it works great at GSTL though.
Watching, say, IdrA just all-kill, say, coL, might be fun yeah. But put like Naniwa just all killing coL, or Sixjax, or something. Over the internet. Wouldn't be as good a format in my opinion.
The EG MCS is a great tournament, but I really feel like the organisation of the VODs is a massive barrier to entry. Often I just can't be arsed to search through the archives on blip, work out which week/day I'm at, and they're not even in chronological order. So I just click GSL.
I don't think you'd see as many all-kills as you seem to be assuming. I doubt IdrA or naniwa could all-kill top european teams more than once in a blue moon, and even strong NA teams would be pretty tough.
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CEVO and ESEA were 2 good team leagues, they just didn't get any hype really.
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I'd actually love if there were a proleague format team league with the WEIGHT of the BW proleague - even if it's only 8 (plus or minus) teams. I really like the NASL because dropping a set doesnt knock you out, just puts you behind - this is also why I still watch the BW pro leagues, even though I miss most MSL and OSL matches until they start getting close to the finals.
I prefer standard proleague format over winner's league/GSTL format personally, but I believe that it's a personal preference. I like the idea of sending out a player based on the map more than the "wait for x player to show up and send out Y to snipe him" mentality.
On May 26 2011 18:46 Deadeight wrote:
The EG MCS is a great tournament, but I really feel like the organisation of the VODs is a massive barrier to entry. Often I just can't be arsed to search through the archives on blip, work out which week/day I'm at, and they're not even in chronological order. So I just click GSL.
Oh man, I'm not the only one who feels this way. I can't keep up with a tournament if I can't watch vods! Even trying to keep up with BW is easier when I have no recourse besides searching youtube for the matches i missed, rather than trying to navigate the poor organization of the EG master's cup vods. (and I ALWAYS get spoiled, too. =[ )
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Honestly a huge tournament would be something with the prize pool and goal as NASL, but offline and with more stable (no insults to current casters) casters, preferably four at most.
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MLG will probably branch out and do it eventually
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I'm sure it will happen eventually. Liquid, Root, Dignitas, EG, Sixjax, and FXO are all sending 4+ players to MLG Colombus. In a year or two we'll probably see entire teams sent to events.
I'm sure team leagues would be more popular than individual leagues, its just that the extra viewers isn't worth the extra costs right now.
Its tough to capture "team spirit" online where there's only gameplay footage and third-party commentary. Especially when the games are blind BO3s (for easy scheduling) instead of winner-stays format.
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EPT
