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After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.
I actually look forward to GSTL more than the GSL itself, it has interesting system - even though its BO1 its much more fun to watch because players cant prepare for certain opponent and prepare tactics for specific matchup and it really brings out team spirit. We get to see players who are unknown to public all-kill enemy teams and we get to see all their matchups in couple of hours and we just see how GOOD is the player overall. Even the worse player can beat the better one with prepairing for BO3 with 2x cheese or just blind countering his playstyle and hoping it will work, while in this kind of system..I wont say its not possible but its just less likely to happen.
If we look at TSL, not only the players make the tournament as good as TSL was, there were far better players than some that qualified for TSL but just hype, organization, prize pool, casters and really nice editing made TSL best online tournament ever. There are many many team-leagues going on at this moment but for me at least they just...arent really fun to watch I dont feel the team spirit in them and it feels just like another team-league there is.
I played team-league called SGL (not sure how many people saw it) with my team Empire and it was best league for me to play because you never know which opponent you will get next, you cant prepare for it and you dont know if your opponent will cheese or not which usually results in big macro games because none of players want to lose from cheese in BO1 and after each game for example if you win - you discuss with your team mates which next opponent they might send and which kind of playstyle he got and so on. You have to think which players you are sending after first loss or which player you are sending to play first overall, do you want to send your best player on start? do you want to keep him last? Thats the team spirit that I wish there are in other team leagues but there arent - they are just arranged matches with 3/4x bo3's that are just as any other bo3 in my eyes (I might be wrong  )
So bottom line is, why isnt there team-league like GSTL outside korea? Lets be honest everyone is "bored" now after TSL, there wont be any other tournament like TSL any time soon (until next TSL) so why cant we have foreign GSTL meanwhile that would be hyped just as TSL with awesome casters and best foreign teams out there?
Dont tell me you wouldnt like to see for example well known teams like EG, mouz or Dignitas getting all-killed from some player that 99% of people never even heard of him.
My suggestion is next: make a 16 team "GSTL" that would be played in BO7 single elimination with seeds of teams. Why 16 you ask? why not? We have time till next TSL
16 teams would mean taking 8 teams from NA and 8 teams from EU - maybe seed 2 teams from NA and 2 seeds from EU and make the bracket in round one something like NA vs EU - EU VS NA - NA VS EU - because if I was viewer I would rather see EU vs NA team fighting than EU vs EU or NA vs NA because most likely we have seen those teams play between each other already. I think with 16 teams no good team would be left behind so I dont think qualifications would be needed for this kind of "GSTL".
There are a lot of solo leagues and team leagues now that are all played on NA server which results in many eastern european players and teams not participating in them because of big delay when playing from EU to NA server which makes me very sad because some of best EU players are from eastern europe. I know you will say - but then NA will have this problem - they might but it probably wont be as bad as it would be for EU > NA since internet in eastern european countries is worse and if both players agree matches can be played on NA as well.
Oh and about streaming the "GSTL" as well I would like it to be like TSL was, put it twice a week - on saturday team 1 vs team 2 and on sunday team 3 vs team 4. That means we would have 4 weeks for Ro16, another 2 weeks for Ro8 and then Ro4 could be another 2 weeks (1 CW per week) and then the finals which is (if my math isnt terrible) 9 weeks and after those 9 weeks are done gogo TSL 4 qualifications?
Post below what you think of this and would you like to see this kind of team-league instead of regular ones!
♥ Beasty
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Maybe we could do both I think there is another game they play in Korea where they do that.
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EG Master's cup? Theres many leagues like this they just dont get as much viewers as 1v1 leagues.
Also, I had to read 2 paragraphs to realize what u are actually talking about and i freaking should be able to do it just by the title! Read forum guidelines beasty!
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On May 19 2011 11:10 Gomas wrote:
EG Master's cup? Theres many leagues like this they just dont get as much viewers as 1v1 leagues.
Also, I had to read 2 paragraphs to realize what u are actually talking about and i freaking should be able to do it just by the title! Read forum guidelines beasty!
EG Master's cup is not same format as GSTL is.
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I feel like OP could shorten his post and get his message across just the same.
Essentially: "Team Leagues, why isn't there more of them?"
Maybe just use this thread as a setup for ideas on how to make some Team Leagues.
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it blows my mind that we still haven't seen an SC2 equivalent of the WC3L. It was a major team league in WC3 run by the ESL that ran for like 15 seasons, had LAN finals for the top 4 teams, tens of thousands of dollars in prize money and featured all of the world's best players. It was such a big deal in WC3 that teams bankrupted themselves signing the best players on huge contracts to try and win it.
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I am sad that none of the western team events use the Winner's League format. The Clan-War(? I think thats what its called) format that event like EG Master's cup use is really boring... maybe some teams (a lot of western teams have a solid lineup with no stars) like it better, but its not anywhere near as much fun to watch.
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I find team-league much more interesting than individual league. So I too would like to see more team-league. Watching match like oGs vs Startale was very fun, with the players provoking the other team, watching players all-kill, lesser know players sniping star players, etc. Eg Master Cup isn't like GSTL, its format is completely different.
As for being bored after TSL? I disagree. What made this TSL awesome is because the korean were crushed aside MC and because of Thorzain. Naniwa is boring as fuck.
-NASL, the pools matches aren't interesting but when its done and the bracket is revealed, I will be following NASL more closely.
-IPL, season 1 was really entertaining, I am expecting a lot from season 2. I am following the qualifier.
-LAN are always entertaining. MLG's next!
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I don't think you need to change the format when it works. I think it's the best one out there as far as getting new players in while keeping the good players.
Sports generally get a system and keep it because it works.
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Team leagues have always been more exciting than individual leagues.
BW is the biggest example of it
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Canada1637 Posts
The main problem with the GSTL format, which I believe is winner's league (someone correct me if i'm wrong, I always confuse winner's league/pro league, regardless, winner stays on format) being used outside of Korea, is every foreign team is extremely international (or at least the viewers would want the teams to be both Europe + NA), so having your pool of 7 players on at the same time, not necessarily even getting to play is very problematic, especially when the prize pool of most team leagues is dwarfed by the big individual events, so the incentive isn't there for teams to participate in these types of leagues. I hope this will change in the future but I think it will take some time, the scene needs to get abit more stable, the new leagues like NASL and IPL are still very much treading into new territory.
Posts like this help though, I really think the community is hungry for this type of event, EGMC is good and all, but winner's league is the best.
PS I <3 u beastyqt, also props to the SGLeague, are they doing another season? It was awesome but never got really embraced :[
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MLG in in 2.5 weeks seems pretty big to me. But i definitly agree that GSTL is much more fun to watch than GSL.
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On May 19 2011 11:18 Aruno wrote:
I feel like OP could shorten his post and get his message across just the same.
Essentially: "Team Leagues, why isn't there more of them?"
Maybe just use this thread as a setup for ideas on how to make some Team Leagues.
In my opinion there a several reasons for this:
1) GSTL like systems and competitions require a few things to make it fair, its highly preferable to have all the players in one venue under supervision otherwise there is a chance of ghosting and cheating.
2) You need a complete reliable team, plus a coach and some other helpers. This is a huge load on the players and teams as its ALOT of effort to get it organised as oppossed to just entering 1v1 tournaments.
3) It takes much, much longer to have competitions for GSTL like tournaments since there is alot of fluff in between games that just isn't there like in 1v1 tournaments like picking the next player, talking the team and coach for a gameplan etc. and setup times which drags it out alot.
Think about how much longer the GSTL goes as oppossed to your average night of a GSL night... There is usually a pretty big difference.
Overall I like the GSTL format but I also think that unless NASL or an organisation has the guts and money backing the get teams to come to a pseudo-LAN enviroment that the GSTL format won't survive beyond the GSTL and maybe a few online tournaments.
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On May 19 2011 11:23 Adebisi wrote:
The main problem with the GSTL format, which I believe is winner's league (someone correct me if i'm wrong, I always confuse winner's league/pro league, regardless, winner stays on format) being used outside of Korea, is every foreign team is extremely international (or at least the viewers would want the teams to be both Europe + NA), so having your pool of 7 players on at the same time, not necessarily even getting to play is very problematic, especially when the prize pool of most team leagues is dwarfed by the big individual events, so the incentive isn't there for teams to participate in these types of leagues. I hope this will change in the future but I think it will take some time, the scene needs to get abit more stable, the new leagues like NASL and IPL are still very much treading into new territory.
Posts like this help though, I really think the community is hungry for this type of event, EGMC is good and all, but winner's league is the best.
PS I <3 u beastyqt, also props to the SGLeague, are they doing another season? It was awesome but never got really embraced :[
You dont need 7 players its BO7 = you need 4 players
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Yes, I agree with putting more of an emphasis on team leagues from a spectators perspective, although I can't help but think part of the draw to the GSTL is because the GSL finals have been so dry as of yet =(. It's interesting to hear your support of BO1 format as a player as I've previously come to the understanding that larger formats are preferred, and all-kills are great fun to watch!
It would be a good thing for the community to have a larger selection of teams competing in team leagues, but I can't help but thinking that its a bit of a misnomer to label the season dead until TSL 4. There are so many great tournaments with great players and easily accesible VODs that I have to determine what to watch in my spare time.
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Canada1637 Posts
On May 19 2011 11:28 Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 11:23 Adebisi wrote:
The main problem with the GSTL format, which I believe is winner's league (someone correct me if i'm wrong, I always confuse winner's league/pro league, regardless, winner stays on format) being used outside of Korea, is every foreign team is extremely international (or at least the viewers would want the teams to be both Europe + NA), so having your pool of 7 players on at the same time, not necessarily even getting to play is very problematic, especially when the prize pool of most team leagues is dwarfed by the big individual events, so the incentive isn't there for teams to participate in these types of leagues. I hope this will change in the future but I think it will take some time, the scene needs to get abit more stable, the new leagues like NASL and IPL are still very much treading into new territory.
Posts like this help though, I really think the community is hungry for this type of event, EGMC is good and all, but winner's league is the best.
PS I <3 u beastyqt, also props to the SGLeague, are they doing another season? It was awesome but never got really embraced :[ You dont need 7 players its BO7 = you need 4 players
Yeah, but for a true team league, you really do want 7 players because a team wants a pool of players to pull from! But yeah I guess you do only need 4, and then for the finals you can do 9, so only truely need 5... hmmm
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GSTL format for their teamleague is the best, I wanna see all kills, reverse all kills, epic snipes, funny ceremonies, epic comebacks, super gosus carrying a team, upsets and much more in the foreigner scene as well. This 1v1 - 1v1 - 1v1 - 2v2 - ace match if needed that EG has is alright but I feel the GSTL format is 10x better. Hopefully EG will consider it for their next tournament!
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Team leagues need to be in person to be truly effective. Otherwise they're just glorified clanwars and you have the potential lag/hacking/cheating issues that have plague the BW scene since the beginning.
In the GCPL we had teams occasionally not sending their best players out for ace matches because they were too tired, or no one wanted to play, or a player was asleep etc. You just can't organize an online tournament of the scale of GSTL with so many international teams with players all over the world and no centralized system to hold them accountable for both individually or as a group. It would be nice if we had an organization so big it could justify teams sending players to one place to compete, but the infrastructure just isn't there yet, and I doubt it ever will be.
I think the best we could hope for is for the GSTL to grow much bigger and invite foreign teams for a month long special event league. That way other events could plan around it and the stress on international teams wouldn't be as great since they would have time to prepare.
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EPT
