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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On May 20 2011 20:24 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 13:58 FataLe wrote:On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:
After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.
Dude they dropped to Code A because they lost. Don't blame the system, they just weren't the best players on the day.. How many times have you seen the better player drop the first game only to come back to win 3-1 or 4-2 or something? Bo1 is a pretty bad indicator of skill, just like in Poker you don't want to have a headsup with 1500 rolls with 500 BB, but with 10BB it already is a pretty decent indication of skill.
Any top level proffesional can beat another proffesional in a best of 1 game match up, plain and simple, maybe even a scrub could beat a proffesional in a best of 1. But anyway, the reason the better players come up from code A and the weaker ones stay in it or drop out of it, is due to the Bo3 system (even the up and down are best of 3s) they use. But you hit the nail on the head with the silly Bo1 system they use in code S and Bo3 in code A crazy.
I would love to see some proper GSTL league outside of Korea, easy to do online (maybe not the best suited way to do it due to lag issues but the cheaper option) EG Masters Cup is trying to make it but its a small scale at the moment. Maybe they can provide the kickstart for it.
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Well you can watch the SC2CL (Starcraft 2 Clan Lague), the successor of the famous bwcl.
Clans competing:
Team Empire MultiGaming,
SFTO eSports,
ESC.ICY-BOX,
Cybernation,
eSuba.INTEL,
MeetYourMakers,
Team Dignitas,
RoX.KIS.SC2,
Alien Invasion,
3D.FastVPS,
Online Kingdom,
Praetoriani
Playday is every Sunday evening. 20:00 CET.
Link: http://starcraft2.ingame.de/sc2cl
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You could also watch the EG Masters Cup, which is also a Team League.
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If you want a foreign "GSTL" i guess you will have to wait .... Its not an easy task to coordinate whole teams with regular playdays all over the world.
I think if NASL turns out to be a huge success, then you can think about a team league.
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I wish EG masters cup was setup like that. I think the x3 BO 3 with a 2v2 is really terrible.
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Completely agree! Gstl is my.favorite tournament by far!! Though a big part why I love GSTL are the ceremonies haha. Online you just wouldn't have those emotions. However if the tournament is big enough, maybe final 4 can go on LAN and entertain us haha
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On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.I actually look forward to GSTL more than the GSL itself, it has interesting system - even though its BO1 its much more fun to watch because players cant prepare for certain opponent and prepare tactics for specific matchup and it really brings out team spirit. We get to see players who are unknown to public all-kill enemy teams and we get to see all their matchups in couple of hours and we just see how GOOD is the player overall. Even the worse player can beat the better one with prepairing for BO3 with 2x cheese or just blind countering his playstyle and hoping it will work, while in this kind of system..I wont say its not possible but its just less likely to happen. If we look at TSL, not only the players make the tournament as good as TSL was, there were far better players than some that qualified for TSL but just hype, organization, prize pool, casters and really nice editing made TSL best online tournament ever. There are many many team-leagues going on at this moment but for me at least they just...arent really fun to watch I dont feel the team spirit in them and it feels just like another team-league there is. I played team-league called SGL (not sure how many people saw it) with my team Empire and it was best league for me to play because you never know which opponent you will get next, you cant prepare for it and you dont know if your opponent will cheese or not which usually results in big macro games because none of players want to lose from cheese in BO1 and after each game for example if you win - you discuss with your team mates which next opponent they might send and which kind of playstyle he got and so on. You have to think which players you are sending after first loss or which player you are sending to play first overall, do you want to send your best player on start? do you want to keep him last? Thats the team spirit that I wish there are in other team leagues but there arent - they are just arranged matches with 3/4x bo3's that are just as any other bo3 in my eyes (I might be wrong  ) So bottom line is, why isnt there team-league like GSTL outside korea? Lets be honest everyone is "bored" now after TSL, there wont be any other tournament like TSL any time soon (until next TSL) so why cant we have foreign GSTL meanwhile that would be hyped just as TSL with awesome casters and best foreign teams out there? Dont tell me you wouldnt like to see for example well known teams like EG, mouz or Dignitas getting all-killed from some player that 99% of people never even heard of him. My suggestion is next: make a 16 team "GSTL" that would be played in BO7 single elimination with seeds of teams. Why 16 you ask? why not? We have time till next TSL 16 teams would mean taking 8 teams from NA and 8 teams from EU - maybe seed 2 teams from NA and 2 seeds from EU and make the bracket in round one something like NA vs EU - EU VS NA - NA VS EU - because if I was viewer I would rather see EU vs NA team fighting than EU vs EU or NA vs NA because most likely we have seen those teams play between each other already. I think with 16 teams no good team would be left behind so I dont think qualifications would be needed for this kind of "GSTL". There are a lot of solo leagues and team leagues now that are all played on NA server which results in many eastern european players and teams not participating in them because of big delay when playing from EU to NA server which makes me very sad because some of best EU players are from eastern europe. I know you will say - but then NA will have this problem - they might but it probably wont be as bad as it would be for EU > NA since internet in eastern european countries is worse and if both players agree matches can be played on NA as well. Oh and about streaming the "GSTL" as well I would like it to be like TSL was, put it twice a week - on saturday team 1 vs team 2 and on sunday team 3 vs team 4. That means we would have 4 weeks for Ro16, another 2 weeks for Ro8 and then Ro4 could be another 2 weeks (1 CW per week) and then the finals which is (if my math isnt terrible) 9 weeks and after those 9 weeks are done gogo TSL 4 qualifications? Post below what you think of this and would you like to see this kind of team-league instead of regular ones! ♥ Beasty
I'll just talk about the first paragraph because this is quite the wall. EDIT: nvm I'll comment on everything.
1) You acknowledge that the format is changing, yet you are complaining about the format anyway... seems like a waste of time.
2) You don't want the same players, yet don't want the good players to drop to make room for better players... all while keeping the same high quality (I will get back to this in a bit). Seems contradicting.
3) Yes the GSTL format is good. Although the unknown players aren't something that will happen often, it is just due to our ignorance. Now we know about MMA, Ryung, DRG, etc. There won't always be a new player to take the mantle. It will become much rarer (wow this is a word) in the very near future.
4) TSL was good. Very well orchestrated.
Now this is where things fall apart
5) 16 Teams?!?!?!?!? Who exactly are they going to be? You want high quality yet you want sixteen teams? I can barely name 16 players to be able to hang with the Koreans, never mind 16 teams... I'm not saying it is a bad idea, but for someone who is very critical of the GSL/Korean player quality, does it not make sense to only have the best of the best foreigners play? Name me 8 teams on both sides? Name me 5 on both sides...
6) You don't want to participate in the NA team leagues because of lag? What if the NA teams don't want to participate in the Euro team leagues because of lag? I know you touched on this, but you do realize that European internet >>>>>>>>> NA right? That argument doesn't really stand. If anything, you can find a way to switch back and forth or w.e.
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I could definitely field a team of jobbers for this! Seriously though someone needs to make a North American team league that will compete one or two nights a week. It would be so sick. I would buy a ticket every time.
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On May 21 2011 02:01 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.I actually look forward to GSTL more than the GSL itself, it has interesting system - even though its BO1 its much more fun to watch because players cant prepare for certain opponent and prepare tactics for specific matchup and it really brings out team spirit. We get to see players who are unknown to public all-kill enemy teams and we get to see all their matchups in couple of hours and we just see how GOOD is the player overall. Even the worse player can beat the better one with prepairing for BO3 with 2x cheese or just blind countering his playstyle and hoping it will work, while in this kind of system..I wont say its not possible but its just less likely to happen. If we look at TSL, not only the players make the tournament as good as TSL was, there were far better players than some that qualified for TSL but just hype, organization, prize pool, casters and really nice editing made TSL best online tournament ever. There are many many team-leagues going on at this moment but for me at least they just...arent really fun to watch I dont feel the team spirit in them and it feels just like another team-league there is. I played team-league called SGL (not sure how many people saw it) with my team Empire and it was best league for me to play because you never know which opponent you will get next, you cant prepare for it and you dont know if your opponent will cheese or not which usually results in big macro games because none of players want to lose from cheese in BO1 and after each game for example if you win - you discuss with your team mates which next opponent they might send and which kind of playstyle he got and so on. You have to think which players you are sending after first loss or which player you are sending to play first overall, do you want to send your best player on start? do you want to keep him last? Thats the team spirit that I wish there are in other team leagues but there arent - they are just arranged matches with 3/4x bo3's that are just as any other bo3 in my eyes (I might be wrong ) So bottom line is, why isnt there team-league like GSTL outside korea? Lets be honest everyone is "bored" now after TSL, there wont be any other tournament like TSL any time soon (until next TSL) so why cant we have foreign GSTL meanwhile that would be hyped just as TSL with awesome casters and best foreign teams out there? Dont tell me you wouldnt like to see for example well known teams like EG, mouz or Dignitas getting all-killed from some player that 99% of people never even heard of him. My suggestion is next: make a 16 team "GSTL" that would be played in BO7 single elimination with seeds of teams. Why 16 you ask? why not? We have time till next TSL 16 teams would mean taking 8 teams from NA and 8 teams from EU - maybe seed 2 teams from NA and 2 seeds from EU and make the bracket in round one something like NA vs EU - EU VS NA - NA VS EU - because if I was viewer I would rather see EU vs NA team fighting than EU vs EU or NA vs NA because most likely we have seen those teams play between each other already. I think with 16 teams no good team would be left behind so I dont think qualifications would be needed for this kind of "GSTL". There are a lot of solo leagues and team leagues now that are all played on NA server which results in many eastern european players and teams not participating in them because of big delay when playing from EU to NA server which makes me very sad because some of best EU players are from eastern europe. I know you will say - but then NA will have this problem - they might but it probably wont be as bad as it would be for EU > NA since internet in eastern european countries is worse and if both players agree matches can be played on NA as well. Oh and about streaming the "GSTL" as well I would like it to be like TSL was, put it twice a week - on saturday team 1 vs team 2 and on sunday team 3 vs team 4. That means we would have 4 weeks for Ro16, another 2 weeks for Ro8 and then Ro4 could be another 2 weeks (1 CW per week) and then the finals which is (if my math isnt terrible) 9 weeks and after those 9 weeks are done gogo TSL 4 qualifications? Post below what you think of this and would you like to see this kind of team-league instead of regular ones! ♥ Beasty I'll just talk about the first paragraph because this is quite the wall. EDIT: nvm I'll comment on everything. 1) You acknowledge that the format is changing, yet you are complaining about the format anyway... seems like a waste of time. 2) You don't want the same players, yet don't want the good players to drop to make room for better players... all while keeping the same high quality (I will get back to this in a bit). Seems contradicting. 3) Yes the GSTL format is good. Although the unknown players aren't something that will happen often, it is just due to our ignorance. Now we know about MMA, Ryung, DRG, etc. There won't always be a new player to take the mantle. It will become much rarer (wow this is a word) in the very near future. 4) TSL was good. Very well orchestrated. Now this is where things fall apart 5) 16 Teams?!?!?!?!? Who exactly are they going to be? You want high quality yet you want sixteen teams? I can barely name 16 players to be able to hang with the Koreans, never mind 16 teams... I'm not saying it is a bad idea, but for someone who is very critical of the GSL/Korean player quality, does it not make sense to only have the best of the best foreigners play? Name me 8 teams on both sides? Name me 5 on both sides... 6) You don't want to participate in the NA team leagues because of lag? What if the NA teams don't want to participate in the Euro team leagues because of lag? I know you touched on this, but you do realize that European internet >>>>>>>>> NA right? That argument doesn't really stand. If anything, you can find a way to switch back and forth or w.e.
1) Winning GSL after 5-6 rounds is stupid yes, there should be at least 10+ rounds, why? Because players like Inca get to finals without deserving it.
2) After all the GSL's the players started changing now with Ryang, Losira, MMA, Bomber, etc before that they were same players.
3) Unknown players coming out will happen because players improve all the time.
5) I dont understand why are you comparing Korea to foreign SC2 lol.
I dont know where I wrote that Koreans suck or anything like that except Inca vs NesTea finals which was true.
If GSTL was to pick teams based on "skill" like you are saying we would never see Slayers or MVP because they are "bad" from your words.
I'll try naming teams on top of my head but I dont know many of NA teams, anyway:
NA teams: EG, ROOT, sixjax, coL, Fnatic, vVv, VT and FXO(?) - I dont know if there are more teams that are better than some mentioned but there you go 8 teams and if you look at GSTL and players in teams you probably said to yourself "this is easy oGs or IM going to win every season without any doubt" but look at MVP and Slayers.
EU teams: Empire, MYM, mouz, Dignitas, roxkis, Milenium, ESC, SFTO, imba.FXO Ai, eSuba - there are probably more but I mentioned 8 already.
If people dont find some NA teams strong enough there are plenty of teams from EU to pick from. Also not sure if Liquid would participate because players are living..everywhere
6) If you read what I wrote, which you clearly didnt I said EASTERN EUROPEAN internet is bad and that would make 1/3 of EU teams not play at their fullest potential or not play at all. I know a lot of players from NA that play on EU and I never heard one of them say "omg so much lag I cant play".
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On May 21 2011 02:37 Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 02:01 mprs wrote:On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.I actually look forward to GSTL more than the GSL itself, it has interesting system - even though its BO1 its much more fun to watch because players cant prepare for certain opponent and prepare tactics for specific matchup and it really brings out team spirit. We get to see players who are unknown to public all-kill enemy teams and we get to see all their matchups in couple of hours and we just see how GOOD is the player overall. Even the worse player can beat the better one with prepairing for BO3 with 2x cheese or just blind countering his playstyle and hoping it will work, while in this kind of system..I wont say its not possible but its just less likely to happen. If we look at TSL, not only the players make the tournament as good as TSL was, there were far better players than some that qualified for TSL but just hype, organization, prize pool, casters and really nice editing made TSL best online tournament ever. There are many many team-leagues going on at this moment but for me at least they just...arent really fun to watch I dont feel the team spirit in them and it feels just like another team-league there is. I played team-league called SGL (not sure how many people saw it) with my team Empire and it was best league for me to play because you never know which opponent you will get next, you cant prepare for it and you dont know if your opponent will cheese or not which usually results in big macro games because none of players want to lose from cheese in BO1 and after each game for example if you win - you discuss with your team mates which next opponent they might send and which kind of playstyle he got and so on. You have to think which players you are sending after first loss or which player you are sending to play first overall, do you want to send your best player on start? do you want to keep him last? Thats the team spirit that I wish there are in other team leagues but there arent - they are just arranged matches with 3/4x bo3's that are just as any other bo3 in my eyes (I might be wrong ) So bottom line is, why isnt there team-league like GSTL outside korea? Lets be honest everyone is "bored" now after TSL, there wont be any other tournament like TSL any time soon (until next TSL) so why cant we have foreign GSTL meanwhile that would be hyped just as TSL with awesome casters and best foreign teams out there? Dont tell me you wouldnt like to see for example well known teams like EG, mouz or Dignitas getting all-killed from some player that 99% of people never even heard of him. My suggestion is next: make a 16 team "GSTL" that would be played in BO7 single elimination with seeds of teams. Why 16 you ask? why not? We have time till next TSL 16 teams would mean taking 8 teams from NA and 8 teams from EU - maybe seed 2 teams from NA and 2 seeds from EU and make the bracket in round one something like NA vs EU - EU VS NA - NA VS EU - because if I was viewer I would rather see EU vs NA team fighting than EU vs EU or NA vs NA because most likely we have seen those teams play between each other already. I think with 16 teams no good team would be left behind so I dont think qualifications would be needed for this kind of "GSTL". There are a lot of solo leagues and team leagues now that are all played on NA server which results in many eastern european players and teams not participating in them because of big delay when playing from EU to NA server which makes me very sad because some of best EU players are from eastern europe. I know you will say - but then NA will have this problem - they might but it probably wont be as bad as it would be for EU > NA since internet in eastern european countries is worse and if both players agree matches can be played on NA as well. Oh and about streaming the "GSTL" as well I would like it to be like TSL was, put it twice a week - on saturday team 1 vs team 2 and on sunday team 3 vs team 4. That means we would have 4 weeks for Ro16, another 2 weeks for Ro8 and then Ro4 could be another 2 weeks (1 CW per week) and then the finals which is (if my math isnt terrible) 9 weeks and after those 9 weeks are done gogo TSL 4 qualifications? Post below what you think of this and would you like to see this kind of team-league instead of regular ones! ♥ Beasty I'll just talk about the first paragraph because this is quite the wall. EDIT: nvm I'll comment on everything. 1) You acknowledge that the format is changing, yet you are complaining about the format anyway... seems like a waste of time. 2) You don't want the same players, yet don't want the good players to drop to make room for better players... all while keeping the same high quality (I will get back to this in a bit). Seems contradicting. 3) Yes the GSTL format is good. Although the unknown players aren't something that will happen often, it is just due to our ignorance. Now we know about MMA, Ryung, DRG, etc. There won't always be a new player to take the mantle. It will become much rarer (wow this is a word) in the very near future. 4) TSL was good. Very well orchestrated. Now this is where things fall apart 5) 16 Teams?!?!?!?!? Who exactly are they going to be? You want high quality yet you want sixteen teams? I can barely name 16 players to be able to hang with the Koreans, never mind 16 teams... I'm not saying it is a bad idea, but for someone who is very critical of the GSL/Korean player quality, does it not make sense to only have the best of the best foreigners play? Name me 8 teams on both sides? Name me 5 on both sides... 6) You don't want to participate in the NA team leagues because of lag? What if the NA teams don't want to participate in the Euro team leagues because of lag? I know you touched on this, but you do realize that European internet >>>>>>>>> NA right? That argument doesn't really stand. If anything, you can find a way to switch back and forth or w.e. 1) Winning GSL after 5-6 rounds is stupid yes, there should be at least 10+ rounds, why? Because players like Inca get to finals without deserving it. 2) After all the GSL's the players started changing now with Ryang, Losira, MMA, Bomber, etc before that they were same players. 3) Unknown players coming out will happen because players improve all the time. 5) I dont understand why are you comparing Korea to foreign SC2 lol. I dont know where I wrote that Koreans suck or anything like that except Inca vs NesTea finals which was true. If GSTL was to pick teams based on "skill" like you are saying we would never see Slayers or MVP because they are "bad" from your words. I'll try naming teams on top of my head but I dont know many of NA teams, anyway: NA teams: EG, ROOT, sixjax, coL, Fnatic, vVv, VT and FXO(?) - I dont know if there are more teams that are better than some mentioned but there you go 8 teams and if you look at GSTL and players in teams you probably said to yourself "this is easy oGs or IM going to win every season without any doubt" but look at MVP and Slayers. EU teams: Empire, MYM, mouz, Dignitas, roxkis, Milenium, ESC, SFTO, imba.FXO Ai, eSuba - there are probably more but I mentioned 8 already. If people dont find some NA teams strong enough there are plenty of teams from EU to pick from. Also not sure if Liquid would participate because players are living..everywhere 6) If you read what I wrote, which you clearly didnt I said EASTERN EUROPEAN internet is bad and that would make 1/3 of EU teams not play at their fullest potential or not play at all. I know a lot of players from NA that play on EU and I never heard one of them say "omg so much lag I cant play".
rly hard not to start flaming, even knowing how you like that ingame but ok:
1) 10+ rounds ? what players plz ? and inca not deserved it ? cause his rape 3-0? against nada was ... what ? luck ? he raped all expect zergs jaeh that can happen that nestea was to good for him but he deserved the final after beat such a line from good players ...
2) gstl was always new ones ... just not all of them was strong and lost horrible their games ... there are just more players good then YOU know
3) code a send more "unknown" players in gsl then gstl ...
5) you trolling no need answer here
6) yes we know you from east europe and we know your internet is bad but plz ... dont general it .. i know more players with good internet from there then from us ... perhaps you not hear anything from us players cause they simply not want to talk to you cause you just flame everyone ?
stop whining plz and tolling and really ...
ps @ mods: i have birthday today let me troll a bit ...
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I really enjoy the GSL but I agree the format is messed up and I'm glad they're changing it, but what really has me excited is the huge 64 man gsl tournament, which I don't remember the name of. The main reason I am excited for that is because I'm a terran and well a lot of my favorite terrans arethere. I enjoy the GSTL alot as well, shows the new talent and then you see how they preform in the team league. But I agree that there should be a huge team league outside of korea!
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Meh since its online it wouldnt be nearly as interesting as the GSTL. Also GSL has changed its format so it is alot harder to get knocked out of Code S i dont know if you were aware of this. If your really bad your still going to get knocked out otherwise it pretty much ensures the better players stay in, it has half as many players going to the up and down matches.
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On May 21 2011 02:37 Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 02:01 mprs wrote:On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.I actually look forward to GSTL more than the GSL itself, it has interesting system - even though its BO1 its much more fun to watch because players cant prepare for certain opponent and prepare tactics for specific matchup and it really brings out team spirit. We get to see players who are unknown to public all-kill enemy teams and we get to see all their matchups in couple of hours and we just see how GOOD is the player overall. Even the worse player can beat the better one with prepairing for BO3 with 2x cheese or just blind countering his playstyle and hoping it will work, while in this kind of system..I wont say its not possible but its just less likely to happen. If we look at TSL, not only the players make the tournament as good as TSL was, there were far better players than some that qualified for TSL but just hype, organization, prize pool, casters and really nice editing made TSL best online tournament ever. There are many many team-leagues going on at this moment but for me at least they just...arent really fun to watch I dont feel the team spirit in them and it feels just like another team-league there is. I played team-league called SGL (not sure how many people saw it) with my team Empire and it was best league for me to play because you never know which opponent you will get next, you cant prepare for it and you dont know if your opponent will cheese or not which usually results in big macro games because none of players want to lose from cheese in BO1 and after each game for example if you win - you discuss with your team mates which next opponent they might send and which kind of playstyle he got and so on. You have to think which players you are sending after first loss or which player you are sending to play first overall, do you want to send your best player on start? do you want to keep him last? Thats the team spirit that I wish there are in other team leagues but there arent - they are just arranged matches with 3/4x bo3's that are just as any other bo3 in my eyes (I might be wrong ) So bottom line is, why isnt there team-league like GSTL outside korea? Lets be honest everyone is "bored" now after TSL, there wont be any other tournament like TSL any time soon (until next TSL) so why cant we have foreign GSTL meanwhile that would be hyped just as TSL with awesome casters and best foreign teams out there? Dont tell me you wouldnt like to see for example well known teams like EG, mouz or Dignitas getting all-killed from some player that 99% of people never even heard of him. My suggestion is next: make a 16 team "GSTL" that would be played in BO7 single elimination with seeds of teams. Why 16 you ask? why not? We have time till next TSL 16 teams would mean taking 8 teams from NA and 8 teams from EU - maybe seed 2 teams from NA and 2 seeds from EU and make the bracket in round one something like NA vs EU - EU VS NA - NA VS EU - because if I was viewer I would rather see EU vs NA team fighting than EU vs EU or NA vs NA because most likely we have seen those teams play between each other already. I think with 16 teams no good team would be left behind so I dont think qualifications would be needed for this kind of "GSTL". There are a lot of solo leagues and team leagues now that are all played on NA server which results in many eastern european players and teams not participating in them because of big delay when playing from EU to NA server which makes me very sad because some of best EU players are from eastern europe. I know you will say - but then NA will have this problem - they might but it probably wont be as bad as it would be for EU > NA since internet in eastern european countries is worse and if both players agree matches can be played on NA as well. Oh and about streaming the "GSTL" as well I would like it to be like TSL was, put it twice a week - on saturday team 1 vs team 2 and on sunday team 3 vs team 4. That means we would have 4 weeks for Ro16, another 2 weeks for Ro8 and then Ro4 could be another 2 weeks (1 CW per week) and then the finals which is (if my math isnt terrible) 9 weeks and after those 9 weeks are done gogo TSL 4 qualifications? Post below what you think of this and would you like to see this kind of team-league instead of regular ones! ♥ Beasty I'll just talk about the first paragraph because this is quite the wall. EDIT: nvm I'll comment on everything. 1) You acknowledge that the format is changing, yet you are complaining about the format anyway... seems like a waste of time. 2) You don't want the same players, yet don't want the good players to drop to make room for better players... all while keeping the same high quality (I will get back to this in a bit). Seems contradicting. 3) Yes the GSTL format is good. Although the unknown players aren't something that will happen often, it is just due to our ignorance. Now we know about MMA, Ryung, DRG, etc. There won't always be a new player to take the mantle. It will become much rarer (wow this is a word) in the very near future. 4) TSL was good. Very well orchestrated. Now this is where things fall apart 5) 16 Teams?!?!?!?!? Who exactly are they going to be? You want high quality yet you want sixteen teams? I can barely name 16 players to be able to hang with the Koreans, never mind 16 teams... I'm not saying it is a bad idea, but for someone who is very critical of the GSL/Korean player quality, does it not make sense to only have the best of the best foreigners play? Name me 8 teams on both sides? Name me 5 on both sides... 6) You don't want to participate in the NA team leagues because of lag? What if the NA teams don't want to participate in the Euro team leagues because of lag? I know you touched on this, but you do realize that European internet >>>>>>>>> NA right? That argument doesn't really stand. If anything, you can find a way to switch back and forth or w.e. 1) Winning GSL after 5-6 rounds is stupid yes, there should be at least 10+ rounds, why? Because players like Inca get to finals without deserving it. 2) After all the GSL's the players started changing now with Ryang, Losira, MMA, Bomber, etc before that they were same players. 3) Unknown players coming out will happen because players improve all the time. 5) I dont understand why are you comparing Korea to foreign SC2 lol. I dont know where I wrote that Koreans suck or anything like that except Inca vs NesTea finals which was true. If GSTL was to pick teams based on "skill" like you are saying we would never see Slayers or MVP because they are "bad" from your words. I'll try naming teams on top of my head but I dont know many of NA teams, anyway: NA teams: EG, ROOT, sixjax, coL, Fnatic, vVv, VT and FXO(?) - I dont know if there are more teams that are better than some mentioned but there you go 8 teams and if you look at GSTL and players in teams you probably said to yourself "this is easy oGs or IM going to win every season without any doubt" but look at MVP and Slayers. EU teams: Empire, MYM, mouz, Dignitas, roxkis, Milenium, ESC, SFTO, imba.FXO Ai, eSuba - there are probably more but I mentioned 8 already. If people dont find some NA teams strong enough there are plenty of teams from EU to pick from. Also not sure if Liquid would participate because players are living..everywhere 6) If you read what I wrote, which you clearly didnt I said EASTERN EUROPEAN internet is bad and that would make 1/3 of EU teams not play at their fullest potential or not play at all. I know a lot of players from NA that play on EU and I never heard one of them say "omg so much lag I cant play".
So the TSL is great, and the GSL sucks, yet they have the same amount of rounds and it is actually harder to get out of a group stage because you have to prepare for more than one opponent and you dont know exactly who. I dont really see how this makes much sense considering the winner of the TSL has to play the same amount of rounds to get to the final as the GSL. Why are you only complaining about the GSL then? Inca got lucky on his brackets and made it to the finals , easily the same thing could have happened in the TSL it didnt, but the format allows for it.
I dont see how yoou can say the GSL format is so bad but the TSL's is awesome. sure there round of 32's are different but beyond that its the same and i would argue that it is harder to get out of group stages and beyond the round of 32 its is exactly the same. Also it is much harder to get to the round of 32 for code s (you have to go through a whole other tournament and yoou dont get 15 chances to get into the tournament through open tournaments) I just dont really see how it makes sense.
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I completely agree Beasty and when The IPL was still just speculation Proleague implied to me to be exactly what you are saying, but one of the main reason i think the GSTL is so entertaining is the live aspect. the trash talking, the coaches talking with players between rounds, the whole team chilling on camera watching the match with us makes it more exciting. Internet teamleagues are just lackluster to me from a spectator point of view. I think instead of the IPL competing directly with the NASL, them moving for a team league almost directly like the GSTL, but for European/NA teams would have been perfect and probably more successful.
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Team leagues are much more epic in person, where things like win ceremonies and actual physical reactions to wins and losses are seen, along with a live audience cheering. Then you have the fact that Korean rosters are much bigger than EU/NA rosters, so you always get the few players in GSTL who you've never heard of playing amazingly, but in foreigner teams the rosters are small and the team budget low enough that pretty much everyone on a good/well-known team is a known quantity, there are no surprises or one-matchup heroes.
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I still think the game's a bit too "coin tossy" to have real cred yet. Nobody would like tennis if, say, random nobodies were always beating Nadal and Federer. I just hope future expansions will raise the skill ceiling so real superstars can actually stand out.
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On May 20 2011 20:33 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 20:24 Shikyo wrote:On May 20 2011 13:58 FataLe wrote:On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:
After watching first GSL every next GSL provided less and less fun for me as a viewer because its same format (yes I know it was changed), more or less same players, good players droping to code A because of bad system (bo1 in group stages) and then finals end up like last time IMNesTea vs oGsInca which were dissapointing to say the least.
Dude they dropped to Code A because they lost. Don't blame the system, they just weren't the best players on the day.. How many times have you seen the better player drop the first game only to come back to win 3-1 or 4-2 or something? Bo1 is a pretty bad indicator of skill, just like in Poker you don't want to have a headsup with 1500 rolls with 500 BB, but with 10BB it already is a pretty decent indication of skill. Any top level proffesional can beat another proffesional in a best of 1 game match up, plain and simple, maybe even a scrub could beat a proffesional in a best of 1. But anyway, the reason the better players come up from code A and the weaker ones stay in it or drop out of it, is due to the Bo3 system (even the up and down are best of 3s) they use. But you hit the nail on the head with the silly Bo1 system they use in code S and Bo3 in code A crazy. I would love to see some proper GSTL league outside of Korea, easy to do online (maybe not the best suited way to do it due to lag issues but the cheaper option) EG Masters Cup is trying to make it but its a small scale at the moment. Maybe they can provide the kickstart for it.
So true i beat sheth in a custom game a few months back but really i just got lucky going air and he wasnt prepared. im only in diamond but there is no way i would normally stand a chance against him if we had continued playing like it was a best of 3 he would have proceeded to smash me i just got lucky.
I think the new group stages will be much better though for GSL have yoou guys looked at the new format, its following the MSL system its still group stages but its much harder to drop out of code s now unless you are for sure worst in the group (more games are played in the group now)
The MSL format has worked for years and i honestly havent heard to much cristiscm about it hopefully it will be much better for the GSL too
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On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:
Dont tell me you wouldnt like to see for example well known teams like EG, mouz or Dignitas getting all-killed from some player that 99% of people never even heard of him.
You forgot a bit difference between foreign and Korean scene, the amount of tournaments. You see unknown people all-killing stuff in the GSTL cause there are not enough tournaments for them to be known ; that kind of surprises won't happen in the foreign scene because of the amount of opportunities good players have to get known winning tournaments or placing decent, good players from each team are already known
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On May 25 2011 00:18 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 10:56 Beastyqt wrote:
Dont tell me you wouldnt like to see for example well known teams like EG, mouz or Dignitas getting all-killed from some player that 99% of people never even heard of him.
You forgot a bit difference between foreign and Korean scene, the amount of tournaments. You see unknown people all-killing stuff in the GSTL cause there are not enough tournaments for them to be known ; that kind of surprises won't happen in the foreign scene because of the amount of opportunities good players have to get known winning tournaments or placing decent, good players from each team are already known
What makes you think there isnt another "Thorzain" around there? I dont remember Thorzain owning weekly online tournaments before TSL
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As an observer i personally don't find team games nearly as interesting or exciting. They seem very fragile due to the fact that a large blow to a single ally will create a very big lead to the attacking team. Team games end up being drawn out for long after they are won/lost...
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EPT
