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On May 18 2011 07:37 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 07:29 AlBundy wrote:On May 18 2011 07:26 Tryxtira wrote:On May 18 2011 07:22 AlBundy wrote:On May 18 2011 07:19 Xeris wrote:On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote:
I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament.
Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they? Do you realize how different it is to have the GSL in Korea and how unrealistic it is to do that in Europe or America? They're MUCH bigger (geographically) than Korea. It's not my problem. YOU, and the other people/organizations who form the foreign scene, need to come up with something. You need to meet and come up with an agreement. Teams having team houses in the same place would have been a good start. Unfortunately, it seems that nobody talks to nodoby, every organization does its thing in its corner. I don't know if you mean to, but you come off as very aggressive for no appearent reason. I really appreciate Xeris taking time and typing a post here to give us his point of view. I think you should as well.. You are right, and I apologize, I respect Xeris and al the work he has done. However, that's because I'm disappointed. When sc2 scene started to grow, I though the teams and tournament organizers would agree to gather in some place (example ; South California) then set up something similar to the Korean scene... :s We'd love for the NASL to do just that, but its really not feasible (realistically). It isn't to say "this is YOUR problem, not Korea's"... Korea was "blessed" in a way that it is a small, highly centralized country who happened to have eSports take off in a huge way. This makes their model totally unique. There has to be a realistic way to do this that will work for everyone. We can't just copy them in every way. It isn't as simple to say "This works in Korea. Korea does it right. Everyone should use their model."
I don't think that's his point, merely a counterpoint to you saying that the way Korean's are doing it is somehow bad.
I think from the point of view of a spectator though, the Korean model is definitely much more entertaining. It's shown that it has a steeper competition grade and the live format brings a lot of life to their broadcasts as well.
Obviously it's not something that can be done outside of Korea, but I don't think it is the wrong way to be doing it. If foreigners thought they could compete and do well in GSL they would probably go. It's not only a money thing but it's playing with the best of the best. Everyone wants to be the best, especially people as competitive as progamers.
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On May 18 2011 07:40 SaturnAttack wrote:
I can't imagine GOM doing this for any other reason except the viewership numbers for GSL are much better with foreigners in the tournament. Even with all the money they put up for plane tickets / housing I can already sense it's going to fail.
A possible solution might be to have top X GSL finishers seeded for the next Code S competition, with the rest being drawn from separate Korean / International qualifiers. If foreigners really doesn't stack up simply decrease the number of slots foreign qualifiers can offer up to the GSL. I hate how little player movement the current system provides.
While i agree the Code A -> Code S bottleneck is kinda silly, isn't it unfair to just throw a load of foreigners into things unless they change the whole format? Maybe you could say it doesn't matter how people got in but it does seem weird if it was like this and wouldn't Korean players be disgruntled by it..
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On May 18 2011 07:25 infinity2k9 wrote:
No you recalled wrong, they revoked their BW license. Gretech still controls everything related to SC2 no one else can have anything to do with broadcasting it. BW sponsors form the group that is KeSPA, so it's illogical to assume they will seek anything in SC2 in the near future. I believe it's unlikely they will be even willing to grant a license to KeSPA in the future when it appears like they have much more control over the scene if it's Gretech in charge.
Ah, ok. Well aware what KeSPA stands for, but I still believe the businesses will feel more pressure to get their SC2 branches up and running. Considering how big they are, I don't think this would alleviate too many resources, but considering Gretech still has SC2 broadcast rights, then yeah might be no other way. Waiting game commences.
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I think it comes down to the simple fact that Korean tournaments expect you live or stay in Korea for extended periods of time. Whereas western tournaments are at most 5 days long.
It just isn't viable for western players to up and move to Korea.
Western tournaments expect players to just turn up for one week or weekend. Consider the MLG/GLS swap.
Koreans come compete in a prestigious one weekend tournament, all expenses paid, with a $14k in prize pool. That can get $400 just for turning up if they are a registered pro. It is also a double elimination tournament too so they have to lose at least twice to be knocked out. There is literally no downside to that at all even if they don't win anything.
But Western players have to live in Korea for at least a month, accommodation and travel expenses are paid for but players still have to pay normal expenses of living in a foreign country, and just to compete for a spot in Code S. Nothing is guaranteed and the Code A winner gets a measly $1.4k. Code A is a single elimination format which means players could lose a single Bo3 and be out.
That's so bad it seems wrong to even compare them.
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Korea is the meka of SC2 and even though I agree with the majority of the statements put forward, I wouldn't want it changed for the simple reason that it sets the bar super high. Fencing it off from the mere mortals of Western world where only the greats will even think about embarking, and when one does finally win it, it'll be that much sweeter. the $85k, coverage, fame and prestige, experience and glory will be worth be worth the 2 month blood sweat and tears, plus the awesome experience shouldn't be done from a persons bed room online >_< thinking about players willing the NASL in their shirtless P.J's meh...
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Three quick suggestions:
- Take a bit of Code S price money and move it to Code A. Currently its like.... 95/5 % distribution or something? Make it more like 80/20 or 70/30. That also makes sense since the money distribution nowhere tells the story of how small the skill difference is between S and A.
- Make Code A only run for a much shorter period. Maybe 1 week only?
- Run Code A before Code S. Code A basically becomes a "Code S qualifier" with still good price money.
You increase the appeal of Code A by giving it more money. You make it possible to come and run through Code A quickly. If you get seeded into Code A and fail, you still didnt waste more than a week. And if you do well, not only do you get enough price money to make it a worthy trip, you also get a spot in the immediately following Code S.
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On May 18 2011 07:22 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 07:19 Xeris wrote:On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote:
I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament.
Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they? Do you realize how different it is to have the GSL in Korea and how unrealistic it is to do that in Europe or America? They're MUCH bigger (geographically) than Korea. It's not my problem. YOU, and the other people/organizations who form the foreign scene, need to come up with something. You need to meet and come up with an agreement. Teams having team houses in the same place would have been a good start. Unfortunately, it seems that nobody talks to nodoby, every organization does its thing in its corner.
They don't have to "come up with something" so that they can be just like GSL. The whole point of this thread is that he doesn't think the GSL model works for the rest of the world. It's just silly saying, all of the western world needs to turn into Korea and if they don't it's their damn problem.
If the _GLOBAL_ star league wants to actually be global, they need a model that doesn't just work for Korea.
What people are saying is that this whole MLG/GSL collaboration thing is partly because Korean pro-gamers are dissatisfied that it's hard for them to play in foreign tournament. How many interviews have we seen like with the IM team where people are saying they want to play in foreign tournaments. This is a GSL problem and they're trying to help progamers but it's not enough.
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StarStruck May 18 2011 07:20. Posts 2190
I think the Korean window of opportunity is slowly closing it's doors once KeSPA gets its feet wet. New doors could open I suppose, but that has never been part of KeSPA's mandate.
It remains to be seen what kind of global opportunities the KeSPA organization will present to the rest of the world. I think one things for sure, there will be many more big tournaments to come once negotiations pick up after the initial agreement. This might happen sooner rather than later. If you recall, GOM revoked their exclusivity to broadcast SC2 due to the lawsuit. It remains to be seen whether or not OGN and MBC will be looking to press the action and try to start up their own leagues.
All the major sponsors in BW will now seek opportunities in SC2.
If your prediction is true there are possibilities for "guest appearances" by Koreans in the foreign scene, similar to the current situation. However if there are competing leagues in Korea there might a greater opportunity for foreigners to (pick/be picked) (a/by) a league of the their choice. So there are three possibilities: 1 the Korean scene remains rigid and not suitable for foreigners or 2 the Korean scene becomes attractive through competitive leagues and more money or 3 the GSL adopts the OP changes and it turns out to be a great idea!
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On May 18 2011 07:45 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 07:25 infinity2k9 wrote:
No you recalled wrong, they revoked their BW license. Gretech still controls everything related to SC2 no one else can have anything to do with broadcasting it. BW sponsors form the group that is KeSPA, so it's illogical to assume they will seek anything in SC2 in the near future. I believe it's unlikely they will be even willing to grant a license to KeSPA in the future when it appears like they have much more control over the scene if it's Gretech in charge. Ah, ok. Well aware what KeSPA stands for, but I still believe the businesses will feel more pressure to get their SC2 branches up and running. Considering how big they are, I don't think this would alleviate too many resources, but considering Gretech still has SC2 broadcast rights, then yeah might be no other way. Waiting game commences.
Where would the pressure be coming from for it? SC2 isn't as successful in Korea as prehaps Blizzard expected from their huge marketing campaign, that's what seems to be the situation from the figures and info we have. Unless there's an upsurge of popularity in the game in the near future for some reason, or coinciding with an expansion, i doubt any current eSports team-running business will want to spend even more money on eSports teams. BW teams must cost a serious amount of money to run already, and they get decent TV and internet exposure from it. SC2 provides far less exposure for the time being.
The sponsors we've heard so far like Intel/Coca-cola might sound like big names getting involved and that it's taking off, but how much money do you think they are really putting into this? We can only speculate but there's no evidence it's like, say Samsung, giving a whole team + coaches salaries plus funds for a prohouse and other costs. I don't think they want to simply double the costs for less marketing potential.
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I disagree with both, I would just hope for an increased prize pool of code A and just an easier "barrier" for players to get in both code A and S.
The only reason that Europe and NA have online tournaments is because of the sheer distance and how far they've spread out. In Korea, that's not the case. It's just not how Korea does things... and besides the question of usage of hacks and cheating will always arise. Besides, the production value and the excitement would just not be there with the online tournaments. There's a reason that GSL is considered the best SC2 tournament right now. I honestly believe that if a player doesn't have the dedication to compete in a most prestigious tournament in the world right now, then that person does not deserve to be the best. And I hope every progamer has the desire to be the best. So I think GSL would be more for the experience rather than the actual winnings.
Being seeded into directly into Code S just makes up and down matches harder to work with and it just doesn't seem balanced between Korean's benefits and foreigner's benefits. It's just little hard to explain but yea....
What's with people being afraid that Koreans are going to win everything? If you're good, you will win everything. We should be working on how to get better to beat the Koreans rather than talk about how not to let Koreans into the tournaments.
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On May 18 2011 07:23 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 06:54 FlamingTurd wrote:
Wow that was an awesome writeup OP. You have many great and valid points. I definitely think the foreigners should be put right into code S like you said as well. Put bad people into code s and kick out those who deserve to be there? Yea valid point... We seeded foreigners into code A a few season ago, what happened? I think all but 1 foreigner lost in the first round, pathetic. Koreans are working their ass off to get into code a/s, foreigners in no way deserve a free be in. Like someone else said, it seems the foreigner community is all about the money, which is understandable, yet pathetic at the same time.
I'd hardly call Moonglade and Haypro as top foreigners to be honest.And Ret was really unlucky.The fact that SC2 is so luckbased and has so many random factors makes code A really hard to qualify for.Stop talking bullshit like you have any idea about this game.
I'd sure as hell expect them to invite foreigners to their tournaments because we do the same. You think foreigners don't work their asses off practicing? I'm so sick and tired of ppl like you because I know that whatever I say you will never ever understand. Such ignorance...
User was warned for this post
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On May 18 2011 07:44 infinity2k9 wrote:
While i agree the Code A -> Code S bottleneck is kinda silly, isn't it unfair to just throw a load of foreigners into things unless they change the whole format? Maybe you could say it doesn't matter how people got in but it does seem weird if it was like this and wouldn't Korean players be disgruntled by it..
Of course the whole format has to be changed. Make it a 64-man tournament, maybe top 4 are seeds from the previous GSL, and the rest drawn from qualifiers. Maybe initially have 5 or 6 spots from foreigner qualifiers and see where it goes from there. The rest can be from Korean qualifiers.
If they could ever work out some kind of accurate ranking system, you can invite a X number of players based on their current ranking like how Tennis invites players based on their ATP ranks. If you can't find 5 or 6 foreigners that can be competitive in that format, I am sure GSL will move back into being Koreans only anyways.
It's clear from posts made by the FXO people that NA viewers make up the majority of the stream audience. GOM must know this too, which is why they want foreigners. It'd be awesome if all foreigners gathered in LA or Stockholm and we had live events, but I fear there's too many steps logistically towards that goal, and I am not entirely convinced the viewership numbers would improve that much.
I'd love to be wrong though.
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On May 18 2011 06:58 Pies wrote:
unfortunately for you, korea does not care what you think, they will run their tournament the way they want with the format they want. What gives you the audacity to believe you could manage the worlds best sc2 tournament.
Well he manages NASL.... ^^;
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On May 18 2011 07:50 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 07:22 AlBundy wrote:On May 18 2011 07:19 Xeris wrote:On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote:
I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament.
Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they? Do you realize how different it is to have the GSL in Korea and how unrealistic it is to do that in Europe or America? They're MUCH bigger (geographically) than Korea. It's not my problem. YOU, and the other people/organizations who form the foreign scene, need to come up with something. You need to meet and come up with an agreement. Teams having team houses in the same place would have been a good start. Unfortunately, it seems that nobody talks to nodoby, every organization does its thing in its corner. They don't have to "come up with something" so that they can be just like GSL. The whole point of this thread is that he doesn't think the GSL model works for the rest of the world. It's just silly saying, all of the western world needs to turn into Korea and if they don't it's their damn problem. If the _GLOBAL_ star league wants to actually be global, they need a model that doesn't just work for Korea. What people are saying is that this whole MLG/GSL collaboration thing is partly because Korean pro-gamers are dissatisfied that it's hard for them to play in foreign tournament. How many interviews have we seen like with the IM team where people are saying they want to play in foreign tournaments. This is a GSL problem and they're trying to help progamers but it's not enough.
So if I understand this correctly, does this mean that Korean players prefer to participate in events smaller and of shorter duration, rather than regular leagues?
edit: I'm going to read this thread again, the answer is probably there
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On May 18 2011 07:47 Kazang wrote:
I think it comes down to the simple fact that Korean tournaments expect you live or stay in Korea for extended periods of time. Whereas western tournaments are at most 5 days long.
It just isn't viable for western players to up and move to Korea.
Western tournaments expect players to just turn up for one week or weekend. Consider the MLG/GLS swap.
Koreans come compete in a prestigious one weekend tournament, all expenses paid, with a $14k in prize pool. That can get $400 just for turning up if they are a registered pro. It is also a double elimination tournament too so they have to lose at least twice to be knocked out. There is literally no downside to that at all even if they don't win anything.
But Western players have to live in Korea for at least a month, accommodation and travel expenses are paid for but players still have to pay normal expenses of living in a foreign country, and just to compete for a spot in Code S. Nothing is guaranteed and the Code A winner gets a measly $1.4k. Code A is a single elimination format which means players could lose a single Bo3 and be out.
That's so bad it seems wrong to even compare them.
14k? is that the entire prize pool for the tournament? because the winner gets 5k i know that. if so it really isnt that far off from code a.....
Code a is 11,520 but isnt as top heavy, there are also far less people competing in the tournament so your chances of doing better are greater and you guaranteed get 200 bucks (obviously not great but its something)
and then the code s prize pool is something like 125k. I dont see why people keep saying western players have to live in korea for at least a month and then put in the same sentance that nothing is guaranteed or they probably wont get very far. If you get out in the first week you dont have to stick around you can leave. If you go far its probably worth it, if you make it to the top 2 your chances of getting into code s are pretty decent as you get to pick your opponents as well.
Also you say this "But Western players have to live in Korea for at least a month, accommodation and travel expenses are paid for but players still have to pay normal expenses of living in a foreign country, "
But you should read the interview with MLG lee, its an all expenses paid trip to korea for one month, that is worth far far more than going to MLG for a weekend even if you win its probably of similair value, again just for all the people that keep stating that it sucks for non koreans because they will have expenses in korea, ITS ALL EXPENSES PAID! read the interview with MLG lee.
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Good points made. The only thing I disagree with is making Code A online, thats part of what makes GSL awesome is the live atmosphere. When a tournament is online it loses some of that. (Personal preference here I just enjoy watching things done live and in person)
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I'm really against having more online tournaments. If online tournaments and casting from replays are what is the most profitable in the West, then so be it but please don't ask the Korean scene to bow down to that standard. I don't think any other e-sports takes online tournaments as seriously as SC2. For most of them, it's all about being there live, with a crowd, nerves and all with the lag factor taken out as much as possible.
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The Korean model of spacing matches out is really much better for viewing, and allows players to prepare properly for each match. However, that doesn't work in an offline tournament unless there's a LOT of money, or everyone lives reasonably close to the studio...
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On May 18 2011 08:03 kheldorin wrote:
I'm really against having more online tournaments. If online tournaments and casting from replays are what is the most profitable in the West, then so be it but please don't ask the Korean scene to bow down to that standard. I don't think any other e-sports takes online tournaments as seriously as SC2. For most of them, it's all about being there live, with a crowd, nerves and all with the lag factor taken out as much as possible.
I agree, if it works for the west, then so be it like you said. It is by far not the most succesfull business model and in my oppinion has a far lower cieling of potential viewers that would be/ could get interested in it. Offline tournaments have so much more excitement its live you get to see the hype videos interviews nice studio , the reactions of the players as they win or lose, its just overall way better i doubt anyone prefers watching online tournaments.
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On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote:
I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament.
Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
The only one that got a problem seems to be you. The Esport scene growing at a rapid rate in EU and NA atm and its partly becuase of those "fun fairs"
And just my input if the korean scene wants the best players from EU NA like White-ra, Idra, Dimaga, Thozain, Naniwa, kas etc they need to come up with some shorter tournaments.
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EPT
