|
I feel like the OP was very pessimistic and cynical about the whole MLG and GSL trade thing. Even if it's inconvenient to go to korea or not worth it because of the drive, it should be because of the prestige. The first foreigner to win a GSL will be considered the best, will be venerated, and so on. Just imagine if it did happen.
There isn't a lot of propose solutions to your criticisms. Code A online would be horrible, I just don't see that working at all. And the your proposed solution to direct invite to code S is already a reality with the first place in MLG getting a spot.
I think GOM is thinking of and doing everything possible to have more foreigners in the GSL and other leagues (besides IPL and EG stuff) is doing what they can to have koreans in their leagues. It's however up to the players to make that stride and jump. The thing is foreigners aren't willing to make that leap, and I would attribute that to their lack of confidence.
|
On May 18 2011 06:43 LegendaryZ wrote:
I do wish more people would see that there is another side to this story-the one of the Korean progamer. Koreans have to bust their ass to grind their way into and through Code A, full of the best players in the world. Why should a bunch of foreigners get a free pass into those spots? Just because they're not Korean, they should get some sort of affirmative action as if it were a disability? Is there some sort of lack of sacrifice on the part of Korean progamers that warrants this kind of slap in the face?
Foreigners so far have shown that despite generously being given Code A spots, they'll cut and run as soon as things start to look bleak or challenging. Why give a spot to someone that's going to pack it up and go home as soon as he's knocked out of Code S or Code A because he's unwilling to fight for that spot back? What about everyone else that's grinding through each round without being given rewards or freebies? What kind of message does that send to them? Obviously it's a difficult life, but the point is that it's difficult for everyone and I don't think people appreciate how much these kids actually sacrifice (more often than not, their entire futures) for that one opportunity that you want these foreigners get for just not being Korean. Sure they may be good and they may even be champions, but competitively, they're big fish in small ponds. How can you expect the ocean to care for them?
I'd love to see more foreign players playing in Korea, but giving out Code S (or even Code A) spots shouldn't be the way it needs to be encouraged, particularly when it's the same exact people competing over and over again in the foreign tournaments. I don't think it's fair to put the responsibility for this solely on the Koreans when they've already done so much to try to make it work.
I totally agree with you. I understand why a player like Idra who has the potential to win Code S would leave Korea, yeah there are many tournaments in which he could probably enter the prize bubble and get paid without practicing as much as he would to get paid in Korea. He is a progamer, he does this for a living.
I think in the future the Korean scene is going to be the same as BW, the standard practice schedules will be the same as BW, which is what all foreigners hated. And since SC2 will be global, code A players will travel to other countries to win those tournaments having the advantage of the Korean scene.
|
Why can't there be separate scenes? The Korean scene is based around leagues with a rigid framework while the NA/EU scene is based around big LAN events and on-line cups/leagues. The Korean scene is also very localized in comparison to the vast space that occupy non-Korean land. OP wants these very different scenes to interact even more in particular from the foreign to the Korean scene. The recent GOM-MLG agreements aren't as good as the OP wants but the underlying conflict lies in how good the foreigners are in comparison to the Korean players. Therefore, in my opinion, should a world ranking be introduced.
If e-sports are going to get somewhere an international body must be created so that the world ranking ranking becomes fact. However the problem with a world ranking is that if the current two scenes continue to see very little interaction the original underlined question remains but the Koreans are getting out of their native land to play tournaments and they have their own ranking. If the the Koreans continue to take part of the foreigner scene and if a foreigner/world ranking will see the light of the day we will then be able to answer whether a foreigner should play code A or code S.
|
unfortunately for you, korea does not care what you think, they will run their tournament the way they want with the format they want. What gives you the audacity to believe you could manage the worlds best sc2 tournament.
|
illsick
United States1770 Posts
With the haypro example, it just shows that he can be better off winning small online cups. But that's just the point, GSL wants the best players (no offense to haypro); they take playing sc2 to a professional level and it's not for everyone.
People keep saying that you can make more money outside of Korea but truth is that you can potentially make the most money from GSL. They are cutting themselves short by not aiming high and settling for what is easier for lesser. People are willing to make trips to MLG which nets $5,000 for the winner (the cost of EU players to fly back and forth is also huge). If you are not in the top two in MLG you don't really make any profit aswell, just like being in code A.
You are already sacrificing a lot to be a progamer. If you are the best, the GSL allows you to be paid well; like an actual career but you have to keep up and be at the top. Online cups and small tournaments don't cut it when you can be working a normal job and get paid more. Even if you make like $20,000 this year from progaming that's not that much, but if you making what MC is making then that is high in any standards ($160,000 and can be $250,000 if he wins the super tournament).
It's like the foreigners say to themselves that they don't want to be able to qualify or try to win code S but rather try for the smaller prize pools outside Korea. You already invested in being a progamer, why not invest in being a progamer in Korea where you can make more potentially? GSL is more than fair, they try to work with the foreigners and work with MLG and making attempts to accommodate them.
|
It's actually amazing to get to see this from a team manager's point of view, I want to start with that statement.
Regarding the problem, I agree completely with that the MLG champion (heck, even the finalists) should get directly into Code S. This would be very attractive due to the fact that you're guaranteed a chance in the next GSL (may this be in code A). I believe that the length of the GSL, lasting 3-4 weeks is another solvable issue. However, this is probably against the will of Gretech who wants as much sponsor time out of the event as humanly possible. Question is, what will happen when a similar league as GSL awakens in the west? The obvious answer to that is that we will have an actual chance of competing against Korea. If MLG for example went to become a similar event, hosted every 2 months, lasting for a month and so on, whereever that was held would be "the place to be" for all the proteams of Europe and NA. Question is, is this really desirable? I don't know. I would on one hand see the Europeans and NAcans improve even more, on the other hand, it would without any doubt lead to a split between the Korean scene and the western scene.
The solution to this though, would be for the 2 tournaments to, for example every 4 months, host a tournaments for both the Koreans (GSL player) and the western (MLG players). If this event can be held every second time in Korea and every second time in whereever the MLG was being held. If the two tournaments could then help fund the trips for the players, I think this solution would be great. I see it kind of depends on the money it takes to transfer 16/32 players from Korea/the West to Korea/the West...
I think it's an intriguing idea none the less...
|
On May 18 2011 06:50 skrzmark wrote:
Foreigners got seeded into Code A for a season and the majority of them lost in the first round. Why should they take away from the koreans qualifying from the tournament that actually have proof that they can compete in Code A by making it through the qualifiers, the foreigners they gave seeds to were disappointments and is surely why they stopped with the seeds for Code A.
Well same reason why Dreamhack invites korean players into there tournaments. There is qualify tournaments also there however they chose to give koreans invites instead.
And there has been many western tournaments like that.
|
Thanks for your great writeup. The scene is so busy outside of Korea that there is little reason to really be over there at the moment. It's the mecca, and it is an amazing place full of amazing players who treat StarCraft 2 very differently than the foreigners. In the end, however, it's not the best place to be for players to see the best return on their investment. The foreign scene is just flooded with cash at the moment and there's just no good reason to be in Korea where that's not the case. Without the cross-server latency? Definitely. With it? No real compelling reason to be so far away from home and familiar surroundings.
Appreciate the thoughts, Xeris.
|
Hey -- you guys are right! I totally forgot that 4 foreign players were invited to Code A. However, I think my point generally still stands.
"There isn't a lot of propose solutions to your criticisms. Code A online would be horrible, I just don't see that working at all. And the your proposed solution to direct invite to code S is already a reality with the first place in MLG getting a spot."
How would Code A online be horrible? If you want to make an outlandish claim like that you should at least explain it...
|
Oh PLEASE not, leave the Code A as "offline" tourney, if GOMTV change that i'll definitely lost interest in competitive SC2...
|
What a great write-up! It's pretty sweet to hear some of the background stuff that goes on with stuff like this.
I feel that if, as others have suggested, GOM simply re-worked Code A to not be as long (like maybe a week or something) then there would be a lot more foreign players that would put in the effort to do it.
As it is now if you go for a month and don't get into Code S you essentially 'wasted' a month of foreign tournaments, but if it were only a week or so and it didn't work out then the time invested isn't seen as much of a 'waste'.
|
Only to the foreign scene GSL qualifiers is a bad thing. Simply because foreigners don`t think they are good enough. Lets not beat around the bush, if a player is good enough, a tournament with a ridiculous prize pool at the top is a no brainer to compete in.
With qualifiers everyone has equal chance, but in tournaments that are invite only....pro players that don`t have the name of like MC or Boxer has no chance to even compete, so I have a hard time believing koreans would give a damn if they had to go through qualifiers especially the ones who would never get invites to the foreign tournaments or the ones who aren`t even in the GSL.
|
On May 18 2011 06:43 LegendaryZ wrote:
I do wish more people would see that there is another side to this story-the one of the Korean progamer. Koreans have to bust their ass to grind their way into and through Code A, full of the best players in the world. Why should a bunch of foreigners get a free pass into those spots? Just because they're not Korean, they should get some sort of affirmative action as if it were a disability? Is there some sort of lack of sacrifice on the part of Korean progamers that warrants this kind of slap in the face?
Foreigners so far have shown that despite generously being given Code A spots, they'll cut and run as soon as things start to look bleak or challenging. Why give a spot to someone that's going to pack it up and go home as soon as he's knocked out of Code S or Code A because he's unwilling to fight for that spot back? What about everyone else that's grinding through each round without being given rewards or freebies? What kind of message does that send to them? Obviously it's a difficult life, but the point is that it's difficult for everyone and I don't think people appreciate how much these kids actually sacrifice (more often than not, their entire futures) for that one opportunity that you want these foreigners get for just not being Korean. Sure they may be good and they may even be champions, but competitively, they're big fish in small ponds. How can you expect the ocean to care for them?
I'd love to see more foreign players playing in Korea, but giving out Code S (or even Code A) spots shouldn't be the way it needs to be encouraged, particularly when it's the same exact people competing over and over again in the foreign tournaments. I don't think it's fair to put the responsibility for this solely on the Koreans when they've already done so much to try to make it work.
True...GOM themselves have done more than enough for the foreign community. How many code S spots do we want given out before it becomes unfair to the thousands of Koreans busting their ass just to make it to code A, never mind code S. The only thing they can realistically do is raise Code A price pool to make it more attractive and spread out Code S prize money to make it less top heavy. Other than that what more can you ask of GOM that hasn't already been done? The fact that there's no other tourneys in Korea is not GOM's fault but rather the cause of the Kespa/Blizzard thing. GOM has done and amazing job of running THEIR tourney and making it as foreigner friendly as possible. They still provide the highest quality, by far highest paying tourney in the world. I'm all for ideas such as advanced communication and making code A more attractive but giving out more free code S spots is definitely NOT the answer.
|
On May 18 2011 07:05 Xeris wrote:
Hey -- you guys are right! I totally forgot that 4 foreign players were invited to Code A. However, I think my point generally still stands.
"There isn't a lot of propose solutions to your criticisms. Code A online would be horrible, I just don't see that working at all. And the your proposed solution to direct invite to code S is already a reality with the first place in MLG getting a spot."
How would Code A online be horrible? If you want to make an outlandish claim like that you should at least explain it... because although the whole battle.net fiasco prevents it from being a true lan environment, KR to KR latency is quite good
the entire setup of GSL is based around a live tournament structure and it would be very strange to the spectator for one of the booths to be empty, and yes, in most people's eyes it would cause the tournament to lose prestige
this analysis also makes the assumption that the code A prize pool will never increase
you might be right that it does not make much sense to accept the code A invitation as of now but it is a long term deal and at the rate the scene is exploding in 2012 it might be a more financially sound decision
|
I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament.
Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
|
Why don't we just invite all bronze league player from all over the world to Code S as well then?
|
On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote:
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Or perhaps making sure it survives?
|
On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote:
I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament.
Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
Do you realize how different it is to have the GSL in Korea and how unrealistic it is to do that in Europe or America? They're MUCH bigger (geographically) than Korea.
|
Yeah, there really is no reason for a progamer to drop whatever their doing, stay a month in Korea, and then most likely lose... One tournament a month is NOT good for a progamer... It also vastly lowers the odds of winning anything at all. Unless your one of the best players in the world, there is absolute no reason to go to Korea...
|
There is no "korean" problem, but a "foreign" one. Foreigners are growing used to play tournaments with sizable prize-pool and mediocre competition. As you say, an average player can make a living just by grinding small weekly tournaments. Good players know that with the volatility of SC2, they all have a shot at winning a huge tournament from time to time. The "foreign" problem is a mix between greediness and laziness. Of course, all pro-gamers want to win some money, but athletes should also try to become the best. GomTV is offering a huge opportunity to play against the best players in the world (without lag, koreans player dominate). But here we are, asking for even more: no risk online-only tournaments (more farming) and direct access to code S.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
