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On May 18 2011 06:24 DirtYLOu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 06:22 travis wrote:The good news is that if korea stays largely separate from the foreigner scene outside of korea, we will have the most exciting WCGs ever. So it's a win either way, right guys?  How is that ? O_O I don't get your thinking.
in broodwar we knew what would happen every year @ WCG. The koreans would dominate the foreigners.
in sc2 that isn't the case, and if foreigners and koreans are kept largely separate it will be super exciting to see how the foreigners stack up against the koreans.
And the problem is not that Foreigners can't move to Korea cuz of late announcements by GOM, or anything like that.
It's hard to find PROFESSIONAL players outside of KOREA, that actually will just play X hours a day every day. It has nothing to do with culture etc.( In my opinion )
I don't necessarily agree with this. I think that many of the teams outside of korean are quite professional and if anything it is getting even more serious. These guys want to make money just like the koreans. Maybe the discipline level isn't quite there yet, but that could change. And I think for some guys it already is - there are people who really want to win and really train hard.
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While I agree with much of Xeris' statements, you have to keep in mind that GOM has actually done a decent amount to support the foreign scene and their players.
While its not perfect, it is already way more than KeSPA has ever tried to do. If foreigners keep up their play, it will only get better with time.
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On May 18 2011 06:24 DirtYLOu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 06:22 travis wrote:The good news is that if korea stays largely separate from the foreigner scene outside of korea, we will have the most exciting WCGs ever. So it's a win either way, right guys? How is that ? O_O I don't get your thinking. And the problem is not that Foreigners can't move to Korea cuz of late announcements by GOM, or anything like that. It's hard to find PROFESSIONAL players outside of KOREA, that actually will just play X hours a day every day. It has nothing to do with culture etc.( In my opinion )
I don't know if you were being sarcastic, but culture has everything to do with work ethics. Koreans are known to be very dedicated and take great pride in whatever work they do.
I think foreigners should take the opportunity that the exchange program is providing. I know the Koreans will, and if the foreign players don't get used to working hard in the end its going to be BW all over again.
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What Korea needs, really really needs is for another channel to pick up SC2 and for a second league to get going.
GSL is great, it shouldn't be changed at all, it should be rock hard to get into and tough as nails to stay in.
However it is actually overexposed already, and there needs to be a second league with a fresh set of faces, that has it's own way of doing things (different maps, different set up, different champions)
This way there can be more to win, and more to be interested in.
Also there can't be a rise of Bonjwas until one player beats multiple events, so that he's the master of the game, not the league.
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On May 18 2011 04:56 Xeris wrote:You need a ticket to Korea, then to MLG, and then back to Korea. That's almost $3,000 in flight cost, not to count the massive amount of jet lag tha
Bullshit
The cheapest USA-Korea round trip airfare is $1,000 USD, but $1700 on average if you don't order it at the right time.
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The "Korean" problem is not only a Korean problem, but a tournament ”problem”.
GOM/Blizzard started the SC2 adventure by betting on Korea being the nr 1 place for tournaments, but this has not happened and a new strategy must be used. GOM is just one, of many, putting on major tournaments. The pricepool in the GSL is fueled by Blizzard, but will that continue in the future, when there is major tournaments outside of Korea?
The viewers that most sponsors want to target is not in Korea right now and GOM should now be viewed as a local organizer, not the global hope it began as.
Put yourself in MLGs shoes, would you like to ship “your” best players to Korea every event and drain the western pro scene from all the talent? Would any other western league or tournament want that to happen? No. They want the sponsors to get the best. The teams also want the sponsors to be happy., that is why they want more support from GOM for even going to Korea.
The program works for both GOM and MLG right now, without the need for to much extra money being used. MLG gets Korean players/teams wanting to go to MLG just to be able for a "quick and easy" way in to code S and a few bucks. GOM gets plenty of Koreans playing with foreigners, casted in Korean by GOM. The western casters are even exchanged to make the deal even sweeter for the viewers.
The top pros from the west will stay in the west and make MLG and other tournaments happy, GOM will make Korean teams happy by giving them better chances to bring in some money/code S placing, and we get to watch Koreans play with top foreign pros.
I don't really see the business need sending pros to Korea, from a spectator point of view or from the tournament/sponsor/team/Blizzard point of view. The only thing needed to make a majority happy is a way of making sure the top players from Korea gets to play outside of Korea.
The current deal makes that more likely. Activsions CFO will be able to sleep at night, dreaming about farmville and how it's worth it.
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i think the mlg/gsl exchange would work
there are alot of players who wants to go in korea
and there are alot of teams who also wants to see their players in korea
thats good publicity and good publicity is great for your sponsors
yeah code a is hard and the price money is not rly high
but think about the lategame
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On May 18 2011 06:36 FOUTWENTYSIXTY wrote:
What Korea needs, really really needs is for another channel to pick up SC2 and for a second league to get going.
This would go a long way towards resolving the issue. Fortunately, now that litigation between KESPA and Blizzard is winding down, it's (at least slightly) more likely that this will become a reality.
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On May 18 2011 06:37 rkffhk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 04:56 Xeris wrote:You need a ticket to Korea, then to MLG, and then back to Korea. That's almost $3,000 in flight cost, not to count the massive amount of jet lag tha Bullshit The cheapest USA-Korea round trip airfare is $1,000 USD, but $1700 on average if you don't order it at the right time.
....so going by your statement of average Xeris is correct? Because from whereever to Korea then MLG then back to korea would be 2 round trip tix, or 1 round trip and 1 one way.
Congradulations.
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The biggest problem with GSL all boils down to the time commitment compared to the payout. Most western events last a few days, and pay out accordingly. It's not like they have to put all their eggs in one basket. You screw up a Bo3 at Dreamhack, you miss out on the prize pool of Dreamhack. You screw up a Bo3 at GSL, and it's like missing out on the prizepool of 8 Dreamhacks, while already missing all kinds of other tournaments.
In the end, GSL is a huge monetary gamble for somebody who doesn't already live in Korea. Beyond the money, it's also a commitment to play and practice in an environment that is stacked against you.
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I do wish more people would see that there is another side to this story-the one of the Korean progamer. Koreans have to bust their ass to grind their way into and through Code A, full of the best players in the world. Why should a bunch of foreigners get a free pass into those spots? Just because they're not Korean, they should get some sort of affirmative action as if it were a disability? Is there some sort of lack of sacrifice on the part of Korean progamers that warrants this kind of slap in the face?
Foreigners so far have shown that despite generously being given Code A spots, they'll cut and run as soon as things start to look bleak or challenging. Why give a spot to someone that's going to pack it up and go home as soon as he's knocked out of Code S or Code A because he's unwilling to fight for that spot back? What about everyone else that's grinding through each round without being given rewards or freebies? What kind of message does that send to them? Obviously it's a difficult life, but the point is that it's difficult for everyone and I don't think people appreciate how much these kids actually sacrifice (more often than not, their entire futures) for that one opportunity that you want these foreigners get for just not being Korean. Sure they may be good and they may even be champions, but competitively, they're big fish in small ponds. How can you expect the ocean to care for them?
I'd love to see more foreign players playing in Korea, but giving out Code S (or even Code A) spots shouldn't be the way it needs to be encouraged, particularly when it's the same exact people competing over and over again in the foreign tournaments. I don't think it's fair to put the responsibility for this solely on the Koreans when they've already done so much to try to make it work.
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The GSL does not care about the diversity of players according to race but rather skill. If you have what it takes to play in Code-A or Code-S you will move to Korea and try your butt off and play to win. Huk, Jinro, and Idra have all accomplished this feat. Mind you, that this isn't an easy task and while only 2 foreigners remain in Korea think about it like this. Hundreds of thousand maybe even millions of people in Korea are competitive Starcraft 2 players but only a handful of them make it to the GSL. It's not about foreigners and the GSL's inclusion of them but rather foreigners and their choice, skill, and dedication of foreigners to move to Korea and get in on the qualifiers and to make it to Code-A and Code-S.
I'm not trying to say that Koreans are all amazing and foreigners lack in skill but like you stated, it's a accumulated problem that includes finances, team houses, adjusting, and many other variables. It's unfortunate that the GSL is in Korea and Korea is the Starcraft (both 1 & 2) capital of the world but you have to make adjustments. It's kind of like how Europe is the Counter-strike capital of the world and everyone has to adjust to that as well.
On the bright side, at least in Starcraft 2 you have a large foreigner scene and you have many tournaments popping up all around the globe. While the GSL is regarded as the highest and most prestigious still, you have the NASL, MLG, IEM, DreamHack, and many other tournaments that help the foreigner scene to strive.
To play in Korea, as a foreigner that is, you have to dedicate your entire life to it. Just watch HuK's stream...it's ridiculous to watch hour after hour after hour of laddering and then practicing around with Jinro or oGs teammates.
The only solution I can really come up for this is a joint foreigner team house. Maybe EG, mouz, fnatic, and other players or organizations all chip in to send players over to Korea. Other than that it's going to be tough unless that player is ready to really go all-in in Korea.
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On May 18 2011 06:39 jackrandomsx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 06:36 FOUTWENTYSIXTY wrote:
What Korea needs, really really needs is for another channel to pick up SC2 and for a second league to get going.
This would go a long way towards resolving the issue. Fortunately, now that litigation between KESPA and Blizzard is winding down, it's (at least slightly) more likely that this will become a reality.
Perhaps, but do remember that Gretech has exclusive rights to SC for one (or two?) more years so we have to wait how it pans out.
What I do like is that with the whole foreigners vs koreans now being somewhat of an even fight, a second league could very well pick on this to make it all the more exciting 
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There is no problem with korea. GOM should just turn the GSL into the KSL (or 'the KSL feat. HuK 'n jinro') and the foreigners can keep doing their own thing.
Problem solved
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Those are excellent suggestions for sure! The idea of making code A online is especially brilliant imho. I definitely hope this somehow travels to the ears of the decision makers of GOMtv.
On May 18 2011 04:56 Xeris wrote:
So far, no Korean has ever had to qualify for a foreign event, but every single foreign has had to qualify for a Korean event.
That's incorrect. Ret, Haypro, Huk and Moonglade got invited in code A at some point. I don't remember koreans not being invited in a foreign tournament, but I wouldn't be surprised this happened too.
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Isnt another big problem with GSL and the Korean scene that tournaments take like 3-4 weeks to play through? Even if Code A wouldve had more competitive prize pool, it would still take quite a large commitment to go to Korea for that long. Wouldnt it be more appealing to foreigners if there were more short tournies that only ran for 1-2 weeks max, which would still be possible to get into Code S from?
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Foreigners got seeded into Code A for a season and the majority of them lost in the first round. Why should they take away from the koreans qualifying from the tournament that actually have proof that they can compete in Code A by making it through the qualifiers, the foreigners they gave seeds to were disappointments and is surely why they stopped with the seeds for Code A.
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making code A an online tournament is a suggestion without much thought put into it.
if someone wanted to participate in the GSL (foreigner or not) they have to play in the "offline" qualifiers to first qualify for code A itself.
with that being said, making code A QUALIFIERS an online event would bring much more international attention.
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Possibly make a section of Code A qualifiers, and then a champ round in Code A in which to top 16/top8 are flown to Korea for a Code A champ, and then they'll stay there for the up/down battles.
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Wow that was an awesome writeup OP. You have many great and valid points. I definitely think the foreigners should be put right into code S like you said as well.
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EPT
