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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
For anyone who thinks this is a bad idea, just remember 1) there would obviously be rebalancing (and it would be worth it, and 2) just try it. Remember how awesome BW battles felt? If not, go back and play BW and you will begin to want this too. The only thing I see as a problem, is pros will probably be against this as it will throw tournaments off for a little. But so what!? It's a change that will vastly improve SC2. | ||
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
On May 17 2011 15:34 Beef Noodles wrote: I just haven't had the time with finals, but I will soon write a ton of articles on this subject. I really feel like this is the fix that will give SC2 that special something BW has but SC2 lacks. TL should not rest till blizzard knows how bad we want this! For anyone who thinks this is a bad idea, just remember 1) there would obviously be rebalancing (and it would be worth it, and 2) just try it. Remember how awesome BW battles felt? If not, go back and play BW and you will begin to want this too. The only thing I see as a problem, is pros will probably be against this as it will throw tournaments off for a little. But so what!? It's a change that will vastly improve SC2. The fact that it will throw pro players off is why I think a change like this is best suited for an expansion. Expansions will throw games off no matter what because it's gonna have new units and spells to change the metagame. HotS would be a perfect time to change up the pathing so that we can test it during the beta. | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
In BW, small units like marines would still clump (just not as much). But, they would clump enough that it would still require split micro. It would also require unit control micro, because your entire army wouldn't be attacking at once. During a battle, you would constantly need to be bringing in more and more troops, and repositioning your front lines as the back ends of your army join the fray. It would definitely increase micro. To all those who say it would ruin the balance, it wouldn't be *as bad* as you think. Tank lines would still be AMAZING, because now armies would be advancing in limbo lines, and tanks would continually kill the front units as they waltzed it. As it stands now, tank lines get 1 or 2 AMAZING volleys, but then the group of clumped units (say for example marines) arrives and has such high dps (thanks to clumping) that the entire siege line evaporates. Units like the infestor, collosus, and bling splash operates differently from the siege tank, so yes, they would receive a nerf from this change, but they can always be tweaked. But even looking at the baneling, it might not be as bad as we think. A pack of banelings wouldn't be melting to tank fire, and they wouldn't be melting to marine-clump dps. They would kill fewer marines per explosion, but they might actually hit more often (I will have to test this out more). Why would you not make the game so much better for the sake of a few more unit balance changes? Either way, please at least try it in a UMS, and then say whether you like it or not. | ||
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havox_
Germany442 Posts
Yes, i know that i overdo a bit, but: Still funny that everybody agrees but actually mentions completly different reasons - this could mean that a) people don't even agree why the clumping could be bad (then it should not be changed i guess) or b) it means that there are many different legit reasons - then it would be a good change  Soooo... What are the real reasons for a change? (and no, that its tough to see units and that it doesnt look natural arent legit reasons imho) | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
On May 17 2011 15:58 havox_ wrote: To be honest: idont 100% understand why exactly the bw fans want this back... You wanna take away a huge part of the games micro cuz it looks silly? Yes, i know that i overdo a bit, but: Still funny that everybody agrees but actually mentions completly different reasons - this could mean that a) people don't even agree why the clumping could be bad (then it should not be changed i guess) or b) it means that there are many different legit reasons - then it would be a good change Soooo... What are the real reasons for a change? (and no, that its tough to see units and that it doesnt look natural arent legit reasons imho) The reasons are outlined in the first post. I highly doubt it's only nostalgic BW fans that want this change, either. | ||
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
On May 17 2011 15:58 havox_ wrote: To be honest: idont 100% understand why exactly the bw fans want this back... You wanna take away a huge part of the games micro cuz it looks silly? Yes, i know that i overdo a bit, but: Still funny that everybody agrees but actually mentions completly different reasons - this could mean that a) people don't even agree why the clumping could be bad (then it should not be changed i guess) or b) it means that there are many different legit reasons - then it would be a good change Soooo... What are the real reasons for a change? (and no, that its tough to see units and that it doesnt look natural arent legit reasons imho) Non-clumping units actually increases micro because it means that players will have to manage their ranged units more than they do now. When ranged units are spread out, it means that it'll be harder for all of them to get in range, meaning that players will have to properly position their units so that as many of them are firing as possible. Not only will this add more micro to ranged units, it will also help melee units become more viable since they won't instantly melt to ranged fire anymore. Overall, this change helps the game aesthetically, and increases gameplay depth and micro. A win-win. | ||
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
you did mention something similar to what i was musing about: what if you have a bunch of fast units pushing a slow unit somehow... i know that you can technically push a warping archon around... it would be so cool to push ghosts that are nuking away from the spot lol... i doubt it would work though...they seem quite glued in place | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
On May 17 2011 16:05 Spawkuring wrote: Non-clumping units actually increases micro because it means that players will have to manage their ranged units more than they do now. When ranged units are spread out, it means that it'll be harder for all of them to get in range, meaning that players will have to properly position their units so that as many of them are firing as possible. Not only will this add more micro to ranged units, it will also help melee units become more viable since they won't instantly melt to ranged fire anymore. Overall, this change helps the game aesthetically, and increases gameplay depth and micro. A win-win. You sir win a gold star for having the same opinion as me. We would all be better people for listening to you. | ||
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Windows 7
United States236 Posts
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
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ScrubS
Netherlands436 Posts
Anyways, I don't see why things wouold be more dynamic (explain please). Also, the splash dmg arguement is seems to be invalid if you use at lesat 1% brainpower. It would nerf ALL AoE units (tanks/colossi/ghost/HT/infestor/hellion/baneling) which would lead to an complete imbalance. Besides, why make thing smore easy for ppl by not having them to micro at all vs splash units? Can't u generally amove alot already in this game? | ||
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havox_
Germany442 Posts
On May 17 2011 16:05 Spawkuring wrote: Non-clumping units actually increases micro because it means that players will have to manage their ranged units more than they do now. When ranged units are spread out, it means that it'll be harder for all of them to get in range, meaning that players will have to properly position their units so that as many of them are firing as possible. Not only will this add more micro to ranged units, it will also help melee units become more viable since they won't instantly melt to ranged fire anymore. Overall, this change helps the game aesthetically, and increases gameplay depth and micro. A win-win. The range micro seems to be a good point (at least against the argument that the game would lose micro) - thanks  | ||
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ScrubS
Netherlands436 Posts
On May 17 2011 16:05 Spawkuring wrote: Non-clumping units actually increases micro because it means that players will have to manage their ranged units more than they do now. When ranged units are spread out, it means that it'll be harder for all of them to get in range, meaning that players will have to properly position their units so that as many of them are firing as possible. Not only will this add more micro to ranged units, it will also help melee units become more viable since they won't instantly melt to ranged fire anymore. Overall, this change helps the game aesthetically, and increases gameplay depth and micro. A win-win. Serieously, ppl should use more brains  . BW is not the same as SC2. SC2 has smartcasting and all ranged untis will just move in range of their target 0,1 second later than normal | ||
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Jtn
444 Posts
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Scribble
2077 Posts
A bit of hyperbole there, of course...but only a bit. I don't understand, there seems to be a great number of people who complain about the skill ceiling in SC2 - how a player can't win based upon having superior mechanics at the highest levels, but many of those same people support unit AI which unclumps itself (anti-micro), and complain about strong AoE abilities (ex: emp). | ||
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Popss
Sweden176 Posts
On May 17 2011 16:07 IzieBoy wrote: if they were to implement like spread formation that are in games like caesar and so on... then the gap at the pro scene would be even smaller... it takes a bit of micro to spread your marines... if there was a hotkey to spread them all out at once... that's just well... idk you did mention something similar to what i was musing about: what if you have a bunch of fast units pushing a slow unit somehow... i know that you can technically push a warping archon around... it would be so cool to push ghosts that are nuking away from the spot lol... i doubt it would work though...they seem quite glued in place You're thinking about this in the completely wrong way. Yes this change would make Unit X vs Baneling easier to micro. However it would make practically all other engagements tougher to micro since it would make it more challenging to consolidate your army for maximum output. This change would be good as I feel right now SC2 unit AI as well as the infinite control groups is one of the biggest issues the game has. Trust me if BW players could move around with a deathball as large, smart and mobile as the ones we have in SC2 then they would be A-moving around the map as much as we do. Also think this would be better for spectators as right now large battles are usually the least interesting ones. | ||
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MavercK
Australia2181 Posts
was it released at all? | ||
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
On May 17 2011 16:19 ScrubS wrote: Serieously, ppl should use more brains . BW is not the same as SC2. SC2 has smartcasting and all ranged untis will just move in range of their target 0,1 second later than normalThere are actually two reasons why ranged units get weaker with less clumping. The first is that they won't all be in range all of the time. You say that units will just get in range quickly, but the same was true for BW (except dragoons of course). But the time it takes to get in range is pretty damn important and can make a difference, especially when it comes to sniping key units and harassing. The second reason of course is that less clumping means it's easier for melee units to fight range units. Zerglings and zealots are basically worthless against marines because clumped marines in a decent amount just decimate melee. Greater surface area allows melee to attack more marines at once, which again, can make a difference. Neither of these things really change in SC2. In fact, you can take these ideas and apply them to other RTSs as well, like WC3. | ||
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ESKiLL
United States26 Posts
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