EPTDynamic Unit Movements, Your Thoughts? - Page 11
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Tumor
Austria192 Posts
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Raskit
579 Posts
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On May 17 2011 18:37 NicolBolas wrote: You, like many other people, seem to be under the impression that "clumping" is just something that can be taken away. That there's some line of code that they can just excise and presto, units don't "clump" anymore. Actually, there is. If you increase the collision radius of units, they won't clump up so much. Problem solved? | ||
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Blizzard_torments_me
Romania199 Posts
On May 17 2011 18:37 NicolBolas wrote: There's nothing more "dynamic" with this than with SC2's standard pathing. Neither is more "dynamic" than the other. No, having them spread out makes your army look bigger than it actually is. Your army is the size of their collective collision area. No more, no less. Everything else here is a value judgement. You seem to be sabotaging your own argument. You say that the lowest graphics setting makes it easier to see the different between units. But the lowest graphics settings does not change the units pathing. So "clumped" units would be perfectly distinguishable if the higher graphics settings didn't do things that made it hard to tell units apart. Therefore, you're saying that you don't need to change pathfinding; you need to get Blizzard to adjust the higher graphics levels to make units more visually distinct. You, like many other people, seem to be under the impression that "clumping" is just something that can be taken away. That there's some line of code that they can just excise and presto, units don't "clump" anymore. What you call "clumping" is not something that was deliberately engineered into the game. It is no more deliberately engineered than Muta-stacking or Patrol-micro were deliberately engineered into SC1. "Clumping" is the ultimate and inevitable result of having better pathing. Units go in the most direct path to the designated target. If you tell a large group of units that are relatively close where to go, then they will all go together. As a single group. Because that's the fastest, most optimal way for all of those units to do what the player told them to do. What people are asking for is nothing less than for Blizzard to break pathfinding. You want to take the excellent pathfinding in SC2 and break it so that units do not take the optimal path. Breaking pathfinding would have far reaching implications. Units will, by "design", not go where you tell them to. This could lead to any number of unpleasant emergent properties for unit pathing. Maybe Stalkers start acting like Dragoons from SC1, which is not even remotely like a good thing. If you try to get two Thors down a ramp, will they get stuck on each other and neither be able to progress? What you are asking for is not a simple or trivial thing. It is not something you just do. It fundamentally changes everything. Not just unit balance, but everything. I personally don't know if this would make SC2's overall gameplay better or not. But I do know this: if it is possible for pathfinding to be too good, if it is possible for the game to do what the player told it to too well, then StarCraft-style RTS gameplay is, as a whole, fundamentally broken. If the only way to make good gameplay is to break the interface, then something is dreadfully wrong with StarCraft-style RTS games. Agreed.And it will never happen.You can be sure of that. | ||
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sc2sHakA
Germany11 Posts
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
For those who think it would remove the need of micro from the game, simply refer to WC3. That entire game revolved around micro, so I doubt that would be much of an issue. Both clumping and spreading should be options. One is not better than the other, one does not prove you more skillful than the other. Both have their advantages, why am I forced to clump? | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
verry interesting point and the clumping of units when moving with them is quiet annoying The trick you can do with the muta magic box you should be able to do with anny random combination of units There should be a command to let the unit group you selected keep its current formation when moving and returning to its current formation after going through a choke for example this would include "slowing down" faster units so that they keep the same formation with the slower units... when a moving all the units would move till in range of fire of course in current game its near impossible to let your units keep a certain formation when moving due to differences in speed/seize/passing of chokes and bumping into eachoter, unless you like a grandmaster player using formations for your army is something that every player should be able to do imo i do remember some verry old rts games did have this option to keep formation while moving | ||
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KULA_u
Switzerland107 Posts
From the start it was clear that the SC2 pathing system had a really bad effect ony things like splash (becomming overly powerful) and concentrated fire (protoss/m&m&m ball). I never understood why they did it like that. I always thought about increasing collision size... but this is way better. (also increasing colision size totally nullifies attack power of zerglings and other melee units) plz blizzard! | ||
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jemag
Canada98 Posts
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On May 17 2011 10:01 WinteRR wrote: Very good article. I agree with it. This is probably the reason why siege tanks in SC2 seem so 'strong' when in comparison to their BW counterpart do relatively little damage. I feel this would be a good change to the game (especially to the colossus IMHO). You gotta remember that tanks didn't have smart fire in BW, clumping or no clumping tanks in SC2 would still be very strong as they rarely overkill, thats why they do less damage in SC2.... smart fire with 70 damage per shot would be silly. | ||
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
People are already complaining when they make a fairly minor change like the warpgate research time. If you change something like this people would have to start all over again with a lot of builds etc. Good idea, but too late now  | ||
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DorF
Sweden961 Posts
 On a side note: I'm like the biggest BW fan ever and what really kills sc2 for me is this amongst other things and this would also bring about some balance changes to banelings since they'd be pretty ineffective towards a much easier Terran-spreading tactic. | ||
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epoc
Finland1190 Posts
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On May 17 2011 10:11 Falcor wrote: This is never going to happen imo. The game was balanced around "balls" so if they implemented this everything would have to change dont you realize when people get better at microing their armies will look more ideal regardless of the ai pathing? :p i think the end result would be better if units knew other friendly units were in the way. they wouldnt spread out like in bw or wc3 tho because the pathing is still going to be alot better and it wouldnt look this spread out on move command anyway remember in bw it actually required an extremely amount of skill just to keep your mariens together while pushing towards the zerg because if they were just moving by themselves there would be too many lone marines getting picked off by mutalisks. so i think the argument to say the current sc2 ai pathing of units not blocking encourages more micro is wrong. either way you make the ai it would require alot of skill to make the units move in the way you want but i think units moving to dodge friendly units in the way simply makes more sense and would give opportunity for more micro. for example storm and fungal micro is alot harder for the one spreading his units than the one casting the spells. this would acatually balance the skill requirements a little | ||
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Sueco
Sweden283 Posts
I never knew why but I always thought SC1 unit movement looked more natural and organic than SC2's efficiently packed unit balls. Now I understand why. The more I understand about SC2's design, the more underwhelmed I am. Let's pray Blizzard is watching to this thread. Lets make the post count skyrocket.... post you muppets, post! | ||
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
Melee and splash damage units would have to be tweak a lot to make this work. Even units like marines would be so hard to deal with with a natural spreading. | ||
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CptHandsome
Denmark95 Posts
This is the same thing. Yes, it would decrease the power of splash attacks. But is that to be desired? In my honest opinnion; no. Micro is a central element of sc2 and this would basically destroy the currrent game, making it way, way, way too easy. | ||
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