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On May 17 2011 12:47 Superiorwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 12:46 teamsolid wrote:On May 17 2011 12:44 Superiorwolf wrote:On May 17 2011 12:43 teamsolid wrote:Personally, I'd rather see players fight this "UI" clumping to spread units themselves ala http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210057 when faced against AOE. Yes, they won't have 15000 APM, but they'll still be able to perform these micro techniques to a certain extent. This is not even remotely possible for a human to pull off, not even 'to a certain extent.' Especially in a real game. :/ Uh... I dunno about you, but I've seen some decent marine splits vs banelings. Don't see why splitting other units won't become more common as player skill rises Player skill rises, but it doesn't allow for someone to do anything EVEN CLOSE to what is depicted in that video. You realize that in a split second, basically every zergling is moved individually? No matter how good people get, there's no way that's possible for a human AT ALL. Especially since the micro level is not going to improve significantly more than it is at already.
Doesn't have to be lings vs tanks. Can be splitting vs colossi, vs EMPs, vs storm, vs fungals, etc something much more realistic but still worthwhile and impressive to watch.
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On May 17 2011 12:46 StarStruck wrote:
Yeah, they actually did it through the editor. That's why it's a lot more appealing than just theorycrafting.
With that said, there are lots of examples of bad game design in SC2. The unit pathing is just one example and this could definitely help both player and spectator alike. It isn't a big change whatsoever. In fact, I think it's more beneficial to the spectators more than anything else.
Fascinating to hear that this was done in the editor.
I'm really interested to play on this test map or perhaps even see this code being implemented into an actual map for testing.
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Oh man yes please. Make units spread out more and give siege tanks their damage back
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On May 17 2011 12:51 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 12:47 Superiorwolf wrote:On May 17 2011 12:46 teamsolid wrote:On May 17 2011 12:44 Superiorwolf wrote:On May 17 2011 12:43 teamsolid wrote:Personally, I'd rather see players fight this "UI" clumping to spread units themselves ala http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210057 when faced against AOE. Yes, they won't have 15000 APM, but they'll still be able to perform these micro techniques to a certain extent. This is not even remotely possible for a human to pull off, not even 'to a certain extent.' Especially in a real game. :/ Uh... I dunno about you, but I've seen some decent marine splits vs banelings. Don't see why splitting other units won't become more common as player skill rises Player skill rises, but it doesn't allow for someone to do anything EVEN CLOSE to what is depicted in that video. You realize that in a split second, basically every zergling is moved individually? No matter how good people get, there's no way that's possible for a human AT ALL. Especially since the micro level is not going to improve significantly more than it is at already. Doesn't have to be lings vs tanks. Can be splitting vs colossi, vs EMPs, vs storm, vs fungals, etc something much more realistic but still worthwhile and impressive to watch.
I agree, that could be somewhat entertaining to watch, but with this change this kind of micro is still required. AOE spells will be buffed a lot. In Broodwar, storms vs hydras were actually very devastating and it was critical for a person to split and move hydras away from storms almost as soon as they were cast. Just a few seconds in the storm and all your hydras are roasted. So, this type of micro will still exist with the change proposed by the op, and I think it's extremely awesome to watch as well.
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On May 17 2011 12:51 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 12:47 Superiorwolf wrote:On May 17 2011 12:46 teamsolid wrote:On May 17 2011 12:44 Superiorwolf wrote:On May 17 2011 12:43 teamsolid wrote:Personally, I'd rather see players fight this "UI" clumping to spread units themselves ala http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210057 when faced against AOE. Yes, they won't have 15000 APM, but they'll still be able to perform these micro techniques to a certain extent. This is not even remotely possible for a human to pull off, not even 'to a certain extent.' Especially in a real game. :/ Uh... I dunno about you, but I've seen some decent marine splits vs banelings. Don't see why splitting other units won't become more common as player skill rises Player skill rises, but it doesn't allow for someone to do anything EVEN CLOSE to what is depicted in that video. You realize that in a split second, basically every zergling is moved individually? No matter how good people get, there's no way that's possible for a human AT ALL. Especially since the micro level is not going to improve significantly more than it is at already. Doesn't have to be lings vs tanks. Can be splitting vs colossi, vs EMPs, vs storm, vs fungals, etc something much more realistic but still worthwhile and impressive to watch.
If they balanced AoE spells like those according to the new grouping up of units suggested in this thread, it would still require the same amount of micro. It would just be taking place in a larger radius for both the units and spells. It's why they nerfed things like storm so many times from the start. I think it's ridiculous to keep nerfing AoE spells when you can easily implement this, revert spells back to their original state, and have the exact same thing going on as there is currently, but in a more spread out, longer lasting, easier to watch form.
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If we keep complaining about the clumping it will get done. We have to be proactive about it and post it on the Bnet forums.
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*sigh*
At this point, does it really matter?
As much as how I love how the images look if this was to be implemented it would have been implemented since release.
As for implementing it now it would mean a total rebalance of the game(AOE would have to be bigger, Meleee units would be better with autosorround...etc). I think its time we accept that SC2 is not BW, and I like it that way. I mean I know many people wanted this game to be BW HD edition(judging by how many people want basically almost all new units out and the old units back) but the thing about that is that I want SC2 to be its own game and not a dumbed down BW.
As far as bad design, I guess I need to remind people that things they don't like != bad design but whatever. And people need to remember that SC2 is a game released in 2010 a modern game, game design has changed a lot since BW release, hell I am sure that if BW released as it is today it would be panned by most gamers.
Just my 2 cents on this. Would I like this? Yeah, it looks more natural. Does knowing this make SC2 less enjoyable to me? Not at all.
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Who is to say it would have been implemented if it wasn't an afterthought? I don't think Blizzard even thought about it to be honest.
I don't think this would effect the balance much at all. I think some of you are getting a little carried away.
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i loved this idea in beta, and almost a year later i still love it.
A lot of negative responses say something along the lines of "go play BW then, this is starcraft 2" and i hate that logic because from what ive been playing the battles dont even feel like starcraft.
So do i want BW with prettier graphics? honestly....YES I DO!!! with a couple of unit twists and different (by that i mean good different not like warp gates) design choices.
side: and im going to take it a step farther and say the sounds should also be more reminiscient of sc1/bw. we need hard hitting sounds that draw your attention and music that also reflects this.
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I was just thinking about this myself a couple days ago. The units look so dumb and unrealistic clumping together the way they do in SC2. I hope it's not too late to change this, and that players would be patient if the game needs to be rebalanced around this.
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I heartily agree with the spacing issue. It's not as exciting when an entire maxed out army is visible on one screen. I want action everywhere, spread across a large area!
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On May 17 2011 13:17 Dawski wrote:
i loved this idea in beta, and almost a year later i still love it.
A lot of negative responses say something along the lines of "go play BW then, this is starcraft 2" and i hate that logic because from what ive been playing the battles dont even feel like starcraft.
So do i want BW with prettier graphics? honestly....YES I DO!!! with a couple of unit twists and different (by that i mean good different not like warp gates) design choices.
side: and im going to take it a step farther and say the sounds should also be more reminiscient of sc1/bw. we need hard hitting sounds that draw your attention and music that also reflects this.
To be honest, this isn't really a BW thing, but just an RTS issue in general. Pretty much any strategy game benefits from spread out units because it's easier on the eyes, and makes for grander scale of battles. I definitely wouldn't enjoy Company of Heroes or Dawn of War as much if entire armies were clumped up in tight balls rather than the spread out wars they are now.
This is more of a game design thread than a "BW vs SC2" thread.
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Like like like like LIKE!
if units moved like this it would make the game twice as interesting, even if they then stepped up the splash damage increase it would make more exciting moments just like storms, mines, reaver, and other splash stuff in scbw where they had the potential to be game changing.
not to mention this would make micro so much more effective. hope blizzard looks into this.
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A lot of people here are saying that having your units spread out like that is desirable as a player. That's definitely not true for protoss unless you're dodging AoE. Given forcefields, colossi, the 0 stalker DPS, protoss would have to be completely redesigned.
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I think we should have the option to either have our units clumped (i.e. the standard move command) or have them spread (which you can do manually). If units move in the BW/WC3 fashion where they can't push each other around and are naturally spread out, it's basically just automatically spacing your units to mitigate AoE, which removes some of the micro aspect.
Besides the whole game having to be rebalanced, I feel like there's value in being able to pack your units in tightly together (which is advantageous in, say, marine vs. zergling) and being able to manually spread them (marine vs. baneling). If they re-implemented the pathing AI that keeps your units spread, that would actually remove some of the awesome splitting micro we see.
Basically, if you want your units spread out, spread them out yourself. It might take a lot of APM but take that a reason to improve your micro, not a reason to bitch about your units being all smooshed together just because that's how it was in BW.
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I think to a less extreme extent than demonstrated in OP it could be very beneficial for both players and spectators. Right now spreading smaller groups of units just makes smaller balls (heh) that still often take the full blast of anything with splash.
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I do like the idea of getting rid of the blob vs blob fights in sc2 think that it would bring a little bit more to the game if we had it like in bw.
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Someone email this to blizz now.
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If Blizzard takes this seriously, most probably we'll only see this implemented in HotS. Making a change in WoL will result in a large scale re-balancing of the game (spell AOE, splash, etc.).
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I would love it, but it unfortunately will probably never happen as it would change the game so much 
I mean there would be no point for banes in their current state, while I don't think other splash units wouldn't be affected as much, a few tweaks her and there would get it right... but banes would need to be almost redesigned I think.
Camera distance would probably also need to be adjusted to account for the larger space that units take up..
Personally I'm left drooling, as those pictures are very appealing, but I don't design SC2 and I'm sure there are other scenarios that this would affect greatly...
One can only dream...
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EPT
