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Dynamic Unit Movements, Your Thoughts? - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10383 Posts
May 17 2011 03:00 GMT
#81
Obviously would be very interesting. Hopefully for something like this, not TOO much will need to be changed fixed... for example, one reason why Marines are so good right now is because they can clump together so easily, and so can have many of them attack at once. However that will be very different if they're separated. (Well you would be able to spam click them into a center point to make them a bit more compact right? Until they separate again after moving too much?).

Psy Storm and Siege Tank nerfs could probably be reverted. Actually, probably not all the way... for example giving Psy Storm its old radius would be very deadly to mutas...

I'm guessing if they were to do this, they should probably do something in between; not too extreme on one side. The clumping right now is definitely something that should be dealt with, while the amount of space in the pictures above may affect the game too much and that amount of space isn't as necessary considering there is 0 space right now.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-17 03:03:13
May 17 2011 03:02 GMT
#82
1. Very aesthetically pleasing
2. Makes the game much more fun, as AOE will once again become buffed in order to compensate
3. Battles last longer
4. Melee units no longer are useless vs ranged units
5. You will more often (as in BW) see many battles around the map simultaneously, creates for a more effective spectator experience

The one legitimate worry I think that someone posted is that moving up ramps will again be very annoying, but I think with SC2 engine it will not be so difficult as it was in Broodwar.

I would love to see this change implemented for HotS.
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
May 17 2011 03:06 GMT
#83
On May 17 2011 11:58 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
What you people simply don't understand is that Blizzard have not and will not make any changes to make this game any more similar to BW than it already is. So the bottom line is , if you like BW mechanics more ,go play BW.


we play both unlike some sc2 elitists

lol
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
PenguinWithNuke
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
250 Posts
May 17 2011 03:09 GMT
#84
On May 17 2011 10:09 johanngrunt wrote:
Is there any way to force them not to clump?


Just an example, marine patrol micro. It's manual of course, but it is a way.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=206208

Other than using multiple control groups, and some micro like this, I don't see another way to force them to not clump.
Brief.Starcraft
Profile Joined January 2011
United States35 Posts
May 17 2011 03:09 GMT
#85
On May 17 2011 12:02 Superiorwolf wrote:
3. Battles last longer


That excites me the most. Right now all we have is posturing for a while and then a brief battle.
dvide
Profile Joined March 2010
United Kingdom287 Posts
May 17 2011 03:14 GMT
#86
Looks good. Don't forget that two expansions are coming out, so they can change anything at this point. They would never release a patch for Wings of Liberty with this change, but they do have the liberty to change all of the units in the expansions in order to re-balance the game around this sort of thing. Maybe Blizzard will see this thread and play around with it themselves.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-17 03:21:09
May 17 2011 03:17 GMT
#87
On May 17 2011 09:55 CanucksJC wrote:
This is a translation from a thread posted on PlayXP.
Sorry for the messy translation lol :D

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]

In SCBW and W3, units move while avoiding friendly units,
but in SC2, units move while pushing their own friendly units. (when on hold position, they avoid each other)
This is where units tend to clump up, and this happens even when you move them just a couple of times.
Units also clump up in small numbers as well.

If you watch SCBW games, units don't push each other around, so the space around each unit is always changning, and this results in a dynamic movement.
If you only move with one control group, units show the same dynamic movement.
I think this is very important for e-sports.

If I had to list the advantages of removing the clumping of units:

1. (the most important) Unit movements become more dynamic.
Even if you hotkey them separately, those small groups will move like a clump of jelly anyways. It doesn't look natural, and your army looks smaller than it actually is.

2. It's easier to tell the difference between units.
SCBW is in 2-d and it uses less colours, while SC2 is 3-d and uses a variety of colours. So it's easier to differentiate units in SCBW. You can tell this by playing SC2 in the lowest graphic settings.
The lowest graphic setting allows you to tell the difference between units and the difference between units and map tiles much more effectively.

3. You can weaken the power of splash units.
If you look at the units that do splash damage,
siege mode tanks, thor's air attack, ghost's EMP and nuclear missile, raven's HSM, colossus, high templar's storm, infestor's fungal growth,
most of them have been nerfed since beta.
One reason why they are so strong is because units always move together in clumps.
Some people will tell you to separate your units beforehand, but they clump up again when you move them around to attack.

4. The firepower decreases and the duration of battles increases.
One of the main issues with SC2 since the release was that the battles didn't last very long.
Along with complaints such as 'the maps are too narrow', 'the game time is too fast', I think this is a legit explanation as well. This is why we should change the tendency for units to clump together.

If we end up getting rid of this issue, or units move more like in SCBW and W3, we probably need to tweak the balance again.
However, if balance is something that needs to be gradually fixed, this issue should be something we need to change right now.
As a SCBW and SC2 player, and an e-sports viewer, I write this to plead my case.

Source:http://www.playxp.com/sc2/forum/view.php?article_id=2766172


This has bothered me for the longest time. It isn't just the fact they clump up together, but the units do tend to dance/push one another and they never get a shot off. Very reminiscent of dragoon AI and pathing. Stupid AI.

On May 17 2011 12:06 jinorazi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2011 11:58 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
What you people simply don't understand is that Blizzard have not and will not make any changes to make this game any more similar to BW than it already is. So the bottom line is , if you like BW mechanics more ,go play BW.


we play both unlike some sc2 elitists

lol


I'm going to take it one step further. The vast majority of players who come from the BW camp play SC2 now.

You are talking about a very and I mean very small minority, so please drop it.
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
May 17 2011 03:17 GMT
#88
I just played the no deathballs map and for protoss it feels right. I think what would be nice is if the collosion path is higher, but you can force them to collide closer by spam clicking and would stay clumped put until directed to move elsewhere
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Daralii
Profile Joined March 2010
United States16991 Posts
May 17 2011 03:17 GMT
#89
On May 17 2011 12:14 dvide wrote:
Looks good. Don't forget that two expansions are coming out, so they can change anything at this point. They would never release a patch for Wings of Liberty with this change, but they do have the liberty to change all of the units in the expansions in order to re-balance the game around this sort of thing. Maybe Blizzard will see this thread and play around with it themselves.

The thing is that people were asking for this change during beta, which is when things deep in the engine are a lot more likely to change. The odds of Blizzard implementing a change this big after the game's already out are slim to none.
Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth!
Oreo7
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1647 Posts
May 17 2011 03:20 GMT
#90
I wouldn't mind this, but I also don't think it's of dire necessity.
Stork HerO and Protoss everywhere - redfive on bnet
Cofo
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1388 Posts
May 17 2011 03:23 GMT
#91
It's so hard to project the potentially huge impact this would have on the game, but I would LOVE to test it out. I like the idea.
+ Show Spoiler +
JKira
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada1002 Posts
May 17 2011 03:23 GMT
#92
Didn't someone make pretty much this same topic already a couple of weeks ago and it was met with harsh criticism because people didn't like the idea of "making the game easier" by removing the micro needed to split your units beforehand?

It seems people are much more receptive this time around.
zawk9
Profile Joined March 2011
United States427 Posts
May 17 2011 03:23 GMT
#93
Would be a better "improvement to the multiplayer experience" than just about any amount of new units, nerfs, buffs, etc.
there's a bug in the new patch where the other player keeps killing all my dudes.. please nerf this
KevinIX
Profile Joined October 2009
United States2472 Posts
May 17 2011 03:26 GMT
#94
I don't like it. SC2 is not BW, and one of the cool new micro tricks is overcoming the clumping. It takes a lot of precision and speed to split units. I think it would be a shame to get rid of splits.
Liquid FIGHTING!!!
Tarbosh
Profile Joined October 2010
United States127 Posts
May 17 2011 03:26 GMT
#95
A change like this would go a long way towards completely ruining the balance of the game. I think this is a terrible idea.
Yotta
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States270 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-17 03:31:31
May 17 2011 03:29 GMT
#96
Since the unit clumping makes for visually cluttered, short-lived battles, forces AoE abilities to be weak and unexciting, and doesn't feel like StarCraft, I can't understand why it's still in the game.

I'd consider this more a game design decision than a balance-focused one; any balance problems that come from this would only be temporary and lead to a better game IMCO.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-17 03:32:42
May 17 2011 03:31 GMT
#97
I must have missed that thread, so I cannot comment on that matter. This PlayXP article is very easy to follow and it's testable.

Anyway, it's a simple pathing tweak.

On May 17 2011 12:29 Yotta wrote:
Since the unit clumping makes for visually cluttered, short-lived battles, forces AoE abilities to be weak and unexciting, and doesn't feel like StarCraft, I can't understand why it's still in the game.

I'd consider this more a game design decision than a balance-focused one; any balance problems that come from this would only be temporary and lead to a better game IMCO.


Agreed.
xLethargicax
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States469 Posts
May 17 2011 03:32 GMT
#98
IT LOOKS SO MUCH BETTER. Wow, I really wish I could watch a game of SC2 with that style of movement. It just *feels* more like Starcraft.
KnightOfNi
Profile Joined December 2007
United States1508 Posts
May 17 2011 03:33 GMT
#99
This would fix all the problems terrans seem to have in lategame tvz lmao...
RIP eSTRO :(
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5913 Posts
May 17 2011 03:33 GMT
#100
... Its... beautiful ... *cry*
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
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