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Dynamic Unit Movements, Your Thoughts? - Page 38

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
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0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-09 03:29:00
July 09 2012 03:17 GMT
#741
Of course, any energy upgrade balance issues could be fixed if Browder changed them back to how they used to be (faster regen rate) rather than the simplistic starting energy buff. He caused the problem in the first place by arbitrarily ruining the energy upgrade paradigm.

The SC1 designers weren't stupid. Regen rate is a brilliant energy upgrade paradigm because it scales temporally, so brand new casters are marginally better, but ones you preserve are much better.
Sepheren
Profile Joined May 2012
United States66 Posts
July 09 2012 03:28 GMT
#742
On May 17 2011 09:57 HawaiianPig wrote:
This is really promising, and I've always maintained that blob on blob action is a big part of why SC2 is... the way it is, but I have trouble imagining Blizzard would implement such a massive change.


Well Blizzard is providing a product. They want people to like and continue to buy their product. If enough of their consumers actively support such a change, i'm sure they'd love to do it. You get enough people to say the same thing and companies who are selling to those people, you get change.


On May 17 2011 10:00 Koshi wrote:
Everything you state would make this game more interesting IF it pays out like you say it will. However, by changing the dynamic unit movement you will also change the game. I don't know if I like that part.

SCII is good as it is. For now.


That's why you go play the customs that people make with these changes. Obviously if it doesn't work, then it's moot.
GinDo
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
3327 Posts
July 09 2012 03:31 GMT
#743
On July 07 2012 23:19 0neder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2012 23:02 Archerofaiur wrote:
On July 07 2012 06:39 0neder wrote:
On July 07 2012 06:21 FragRaptor wrote:
After playing this type of game mode a few times it is difficult to get in a position where the units themselves actually spread apart. Corners keep them clumping, but if they start out from the rally in the ball they will stay in the ball, and getting back to the super efficient ball is easy as clicking in the center mass of units. Seems like if it were to break up more in the pictures showed on the OP it would need something else.

I like dynamic unit movement but it doesn't do the job by itself alone.

Please don't confuse the MM thread with this. This is much better.


As far as I know their is no working mod for this. So how can it be better?

Because based on screenshots, this is heterogenous and MM is homogenous, so it still doesn't solve the core issue.
Also, SC2BW's Maverick seems to be developing this and is getting close IMO.

+ Show Spoiler +


Wow, that's very exciting to see. But, I've given up all hope that Blizzard would attempt such a change. It's simply not gonna happen.
ⱩŦ ƑⱠẬ$Ħ / ƩǤ ɈƩẬƉØƝǤ [ɌȻ] / ȊṂ.ṂṼⱣ / ẬȻƩɌ.ȊƝƝØṼẬŦȊØƝ / ẬȻƩɌ.ϟȻẬɌⱠƩŦŦ ϟⱠẬɎƩɌϟ ȻⱠẬƝ
Dontkillme
Profile Joined November 2011
Korea (South)806 Posts
July 09 2012 03:34 GMT
#744
This would definetly help out terran because then we wont kill ourselves splitting our marines
Bomber & Jaedong & FlaSh & SNSD <3
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
July 09 2012 03:35 GMT
#745
On July 09 2012 12:28 Sepheren wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2011 09:57 HawaiianPig wrote:
This is really promising, and I've always maintained that blob on blob action is a big part of why SC2 is... the way it is, but I have trouble imagining Blizzard would implement such a massive change.


Well Blizzard is providing a product. They want people to like and continue to buy their product. If enough of their consumers actively support such a change, i'm sure they'd love to do it. You get enough people to say the same thing and companies who are selling to those people, you get change.


Show nested quote +
On May 17 2011 10:00 Koshi wrote:
Everything you state would make this game more interesting IF it pays out like you say it will. However, by changing the dynamic unit movement you will also change the game. I don't know if I like that part.

SCII is good as it is. For now.


That's why you go play the customs that people make with these changes. Obviously if it doesn't work, then it's moot.


Tell that to Bioware for the Mass Effect 3 ending, you're pretty much not right. I mean people have been bitching about shit Blizzard has done with it's last 3 games for years now, and they're still pretty shitty.
FoTG fighting!
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
July 09 2012 03:39 GMT
#746
On July 09 2012 12:35 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2012 12:28 Sepheren wrote:
On May 17 2011 09:57 HawaiianPig wrote:
This is really promising, and I've always maintained that blob on blob action is a big part of why SC2 is... the way it is, but I have trouble imagining Blizzard would implement such a massive change.


Well Blizzard is providing a product. They want people to like and continue to buy their product. If enough of their consumers actively support such a change, i'm sure they'd love to do it. You get enough people to say the same thing and companies who are selling to those people, you get change.


On May 17 2011 10:00 Koshi wrote:
Everything you state would make this game more interesting IF it pays out like you say it will. However, by changing the dynamic unit movement you will also change the game. I don't know if I like that part.

SCII is good as it is. For now.


That's why you go play the customs that people make with these changes. Obviously if it doesn't work, then it's moot.


Tell that to Bioware for the Mass Effect 3 ending, you're pretty much not right. I mean people have been bitching about shit Blizzard has done with it's last 3 games for years now, and they're still pretty shitty.

True, but we have to keep trying while there is still a snowball's chance. If Blizzard thinks they can make money off esports and they think the esports community will be a more profitable long-term investment if they make changes we demand, then it could totally happen. We only need to convince a handful of people.
Borkbokbork
Profile Joined April 2011
United States123 Posts
July 09 2012 03:42 GMT
#747
I was always confused by the lack of a formation option list for a group of selected units. Other strategy games, such as age of empires I believe, employ this. Obviously it's a double-edged sword though, because while it reduces clumping it also lessens the need to micro and position your units.
qi neng jin ru ren yi, dan qiu wu kui wo xin
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
July 09 2012 04:33 GMT
#748
On July 09 2012 12:34 Dontkillme wrote:
This would definetly help out terran because then we wont kill ourselves splitting our marines

But banelings would get a radius buff...
sureshot_
Profile Joined August 2010
United States257 Posts
July 09 2012 04:43 GMT
#749
On July 09 2012 13:33 0neder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2012 12:34 Dontkillme wrote:
This would definetly help out terran because then we wont kill ourselves splitting our marines

But banelings would get a radius buff...


They would have to look at a lot of area-of-effect units. Although if I had to take a guess a simple increase in area would suffice as far as balancing is concerned.
Angra
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2652 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-09 04:48:01
July 09 2012 04:47 GMT
#750
On July 09 2012 13:43 sureshot_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2012 13:33 0neder wrote:
On July 09 2012 12:34 Dontkillme wrote:
This would definetly help out terran because then we wont kill ourselves splitting our marines

But banelings would get a radius buff...


They would have to look at a lot of area-of-effect units. Although if I had to take a guess a simple increase in area would suffice as far as balancing is concerned.


If this change worked as intended you could even have the old powerful psi storm back in the game, among other things.
MagmaPunch
Profile Joined November 2011
Bulgaria536 Posts
July 12 2012 11:16 GMT
#751
Incredibly good idea, definetely send it to Blizzard. : ))
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
tehemperorer
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2183 Posts
July 12 2012 21:48 GMT
#752
On July 09 2012 13:33 0neder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2012 12:34 Dontkillme wrote:
This would definetly help out terran because then we wont kill ourselves splitting our marines

But banelings would get a radius buff...

Again, what does this do to workers that are mining? Inadvertent effects probably should be considered
Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.
wcr.4fun
Profile Joined April 2012
Belgium686 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-12 21:55:31
July 12 2012 21:53 GMT
#753


this is a great game showing how important unit movement is. especially after mutalisks come out. For example notice how jaedong captures the end part of baby's army by suprise when it's going up a ramp. This effectively cut baby's army in half. And baby can't jump to the rescue that easily because the units actually block each other.

(around 10 minutes)
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
July 12 2012 22:11 GMT
#754
One of the larger problems with this change is that it will weaken melee units like zerglings vs moving targets because the melee units will now interfere with each others movement. A simple example is 4 zerglings attacking a retreating SCV/drone/probe; when a zergling is in range to attack it, it will stop and attack, slowing down the other units. Right now the attacking zergling would get pushed aside a bit.

The more recent recommendation someone made of retaining group formations (really huge "magic box" size) is a bunch better idea than this I'd say.
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
July 13 2012 20:47 GMT
#755
On July 13 2012 07:11 Xapti wrote:
One of the larger problems with this change is that it will weaken melee units like zerglings vs moving targets because the melee units will now interfere with each others movement. A simple example is 4 zerglings attacking a retreating SCV/drone/probe; when a zergling is in range to attack it, it will stop and attack, slowing down the other units. Right now the attacking zergling would get pushed aside a bit.

The more recent recommendation someone made of retaining group formations (really huge "magic box" size) is a bunch better idea than this I'd say.



Except that it doesnt really fix the problem. The modified movement mod ended up still looking pretty deathbally. Besides according to MavercK the magic box sizes for SC1 and SC2 are pretty much the same.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
9-BiT
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States1089 Posts
July 13 2012 21:10 GMT
#756
When you have 2 years of balancing with how we are now, there is no way to undo it all and make it better than it is right now, even though in theory this is better. Wishful thinking.
kwark_uk: @father_sc learn to play maybe?
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-13 21:17:32
July 13 2012 21:16 GMT
#757
On July 14 2012 06:10 9-BiT wrote:
When you have 2 years of balancing with how we are now, there is no way to undo it all and make it better than it is right now, even though in theory this is better. Wishful thinking.


we're expecting a game to last 10+ years. to say, "we've come too far, we can't change now" is a horrible attitude when trying to make the best game possible. they have two expansions to deal with it and being lazy(i dont wanna do it again~ T.T) is no excuse.

maybe thats just my view, i dont take excuses kindly. do what must be done.
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
Serpest
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States603 Posts
July 13 2012 21:23 GMT
#758
On July 14 2012 06:16 jinorazi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2012 06:10 9-BiT wrote:
When you have 2 years of balancing with how we are now, there is no way to undo it all and make it better than it is right now, even though in theory this is better. Wishful thinking.


we're expecting a game to last 10+ years. to say, "we've come too far, we can't change now" is a horrible attitude when trying to make the best game possible. they have two expansions to deal with it and being lazy(i dont wanna do it again~ T.T) is no excuse.

maybe thats just my view, i dont take excuses kindly. do what must be done.


If they're lazy, then why the hell are we leaving them to balance for us? Why not create tournament maps with proper settings/balance?
A person that attempts to diagnose themselves has a fool for a doctor and a bigger fool for a patient.
Acer1791
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany182 Posts
July 13 2012 21:27 GMT
#759
On July 14 2012 06:23 Serpest wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2012 06:16 jinorazi wrote:
On July 14 2012 06:10 9-BiT wrote:
When you have 2 years of balancing with how we are now, there is no way to undo it all and make it better than it is right now, even though in theory this is better. Wishful thinking.


we're expecting a game to last 10+ years. to say, "we've come too far, we can't change now" is a horrible attitude when trying to make the best game possible. they have two expansions to deal with it and being lazy(i dont wanna do it again~ T.T) is no excuse.

maybe thats just my view, i dont take excuses kindly. do what must be done.


If they're lazy, then why the hell are we leaving them to balance for us? Why not create tournament maps with proper settings/balance?


cause 99,99..% of the people who bitch about blizzard and balance have no idea how to balance a game.
its all "fanfiction" and in reality it would be far inferior to the state right now.
Serpest
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States603 Posts
July 13 2012 21:29 GMT
#760
On July 14 2012 06:27 Acer1791 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2012 06:23 Serpest wrote:
On July 14 2012 06:16 jinorazi wrote:
On July 14 2012 06:10 9-BiT wrote:
When you have 2 years of balancing with how we are now, there is no way to undo it all and make it better than it is right now, even though in theory this is better. Wishful thinking.


we're expecting a game to last 10+ years. to say, "we've come too far, we can't change now" is a horrible attitude when trying to make the best game possible. they have two expansions to deal with it and being lazy(i dont wanna do it again~ T.T) is no excuse.

maybe thats just my view, i dont take excuses kindly. do what must be done.


If they're lazy, then why the hell are we leaving them to balance for us? Why not create tournament maps with proper settings/balance?


cause 99,99..% of the people who bitch about blizzard and balance have no idea how to balance a game.
its all "fanfiction" and in reality it would be far inferior to the state right now.


In all fairness then, who is enough of a realist/expert to balance the game?
A person that attempts to diagnose themselves has a fool for a doctor and a bigger fool for a patient.
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