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On May 17 2011 11:06 Samhax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 10:54 SwirlQ wrote:On May 17 2011 10:17 Samhax wrote:On May 17 2011 10:15 Golgotha wrote:On May 17 2011 10:11 Falcor wrote:
This is never going to happen imo. The game was balanced around "balls" so if they implemented this everything would have to change rofl source please. game balanced around balls? yeah tell me where you saw that and get back to me. This change would be SO good but I doubt blizz will change it...one can only hope they look at it though. He is not that wrong, aoe damage from units are tweak around this idea of clumping unit. If you want to change this, you have to tweak all the units. And i think the first change would be obviously marines, they would be too good if they didn't clump. I think your are completely wrong, marines would actually have less DPS density while taking less dmg from aoe at the same time. A big part of why zergs dont go pure muta-ling is because the ball of marines has reduced surface area as opposed to a spread. ( thats also why mutas rape pre-spread marines ) I agree marines would have less dps density, but do you know that marines have an insane dps on their own? And basically it's the best unit in the game for their cost if you remove aoe units. So no i don't think i'm wrong when i say if units don't clump, it would be impossible for zergs to handle marines en masse. For protoss i don't know since guardian shield nerf their dps and colossi out ranged them.
Saying this from experience, unclumped marines get wrecked by heavy zergling counts on even upgrades. The reason being is when the marines are balled up u can only get so many lings on 1 marine, unclumped however you can have 3-4 zerglings on a marine before they move on to the next marine. Why do you think when zerglings do so little damage to the ball, its because half of them cant find a place to hit the marines while all the marines are attacking them.
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lol I just made a thread about how I think this game looks bad from clumping. You said it much better than I did however, and I like the pictures. I wish blizzard changed this.
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On May 17 2011 11:19 SwirlQ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 11:06 Samhax wrote:On May 17 2011 10:54 SwirlQ wrote:On May 17 2011 10:17 Samhax wrote:On May 17 2011 10:15 Golgotha wrote:On May 17 2011 10:11 Falcor wrote:
This is never going to happen imo. The game was balanced around "balls" so if they implemented this everything would have to change rofl source please. game balanced around balls? yeah tell me where you saw that and get back to me. This change would be SO good but I doubt blizz will change it...one can only hope they look at it though. He is not that wrong, aoe damage from units are tweak around this idea of clumping unit. If you want to change this, you have to tweak all the units. And i think the first change would be obviously marines, they would be too good if they didn't clump. I think your are completely wrong, marines would actually have less DPS density while taking less dmg from aoe at the same time. A big part of why zergs dont go pure muta-ling is because the ball of marines has reduced surface area as opposed to a spread. ( thats also why mutas rape pre-spread marines ) I agree marines would have less dps density, but do you know that marines have an insane dps on their own? And basically it's the best unit in the game for their cost if you remove aoe units. So no i don't think i'm wrong when i say if units don't clump, it would be impossible for zergs to handle marines en masse. For protoss i don't know since guardian shield nerf their dps and colossi out ranged them. Saying this from experience, unclumped marines get wrecked by heavy zergling counts on even upgrades. The reason being is when the marines are balled up u can only get so many lings on 1 marine, unclumped however you can have 3-4 zerglings on a marine before they move on to the next marine. Why do you think when zerglings do so little damage to the ball, its because half of them cant find a place to hit the marines while all the marines are attacking them.
What if you could purposefully clump units by spaming move command at center mass like you do with air units! And if you did this the AI realized what you were doing and keeps that formation. That way we can have these spread out armies AND the microability of bunching ranged units.
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On May 17 2011 09:57 HawaiianPig wrote:
This is really promising, and I've always maintained that blob on blob action is a big part of why SC2 is... the way it is, but I have trouble imagining Blizzard would implement such a massive change.
i agree and i would welcome it if blizzard would change this.. but sadly, i doubt it
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On May 17 2011 11:14 ZeromuS wrote:
I feel that this is unlikely to happen however increasing collission size would have a similar effect while retaining the current patching AI. I feel the clumping is a side effect of the much better pathing available in sc2 compared to bw.
if we would make the units spread then issues like dragoon dancing would occur again and the game would feel terrible from a modern player perspective. collission size change could reduce the impact of clumping by making units spread a little more but not so much that the AI becomes completely clunky as a result.
I can assure you this will not happen
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=132171
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Yea, it'd be really good.
TvP wouldnt be all about throwing armies at each other fingers crossed.
TvZ is still pretty awesome
TvT is dope as hell.
but TvP...... /shudder.
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On May 17 2011 10:22 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 10:15 Golgotha wrote:On May 17 2011 10:11 Falcor wrote:
This is never going to happen imo. The game was balanced around "balls" so if they implemented this everything would have to change rofl source please. game balanced around balls? yeah tell me where you saw that and get back to me. This change would be SO good but I doubt blizz will change it...one can only hope they look at it though. Are you serious? What do you think the game is balanced around, if not the existing conditions? Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 10:19 PH wrote:
I think this should be implemented immediately, the baneling removed, lurker reintroduced, and storm rebalanced. I think there's already the game for you: it's called BW.
Shit you're right.
Keke. New suggestion: SC2 to be recalled, and everyone goes back to BW.
We're set.
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I agree with the OP. Units should have never been designed to clump up in a ball. Without a doubt, the pathing in BW was down right critical to its success. It allowed for large, epic battles that could last for minutes at a time. It allowed the best players to work miracles and defend with an inferior army, or attack into what seems to be an impenetrable tank line, and come out victorious. If you haven't watched a VOD of a high profile BW match, do it, and you'll understand.
Unfortunately, there is absolutely no way blizzard will ever change this. Sc2 is its own game, not bw with updated graphics. "Clumped up balls of units" is sc2, and it what the entire game is designed around. All balance reflects the fact that units clump. I'd love to see a reaver in sc2 lol. Anyway, I really hope this game can rise to the epicness that is "bw". We still have 2 expacs to see what bliz has in mind.
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i think that units clumping adds a dimension to the game. eventually people will learn that to keep their army clumped up will make it so that units like banelings, tanks, and collosus (as well as infest, ghosts, and HT) are too strong and they'll start getting better splits.
sc2 is easier to play than BW as it is, army control should be something that NOBODY can perfect so that there is more room for pros to show off their skill.
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On May 17 2011 11:37 ishboh wrote:
i think that units clumping adds a dimension to the game. eventually people will learn that to keep their army clumped up will make it so that units like banelings, tanks, and collosus (as well as infest, ghosts, and HT) are too strong and they'll start getting better splits.
sc2 is easier to play than BW as it is, army control should be something that NOBODY can perfect so that there is more room for pros to show off their skill.
Its not about perfection, its about control. A good pilot is able to fly a fighter jet much better than a bad pilot, but lets see how they fair on a 747.
This is the same as BW and SC2. BW allowed you to move clumped OR spread units. SC2 only allows clumped. Lack of control exists everywhere in SC2.
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Age of Empires got formations to work just right...and this was like a decade ago
If Blizzard added formations, surely they would work out alright...
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I agree with everything in OP.
Have you guys noticed it would pretty much nerf the deathball?
PvPs would not be Colossus vs Colossus late game too
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On May 17 2011 10:01 WinteRR wrote:
Very good article. I agree with it. This is probably the reason why siege tanks in SC2 seem so 'strong' when in comparison to their BW counterpart do relatively little damage. I feel this would be a good change to the game (especially to the colossus IMHO).
...O_O
You mad son. BW tanks give me nightmares. SC2 tanks remind me of my micromachines.
That being said, I really would love to see this. Especially as Zerg, it never seems like you have many units, just because of the clumping. Not to mention we could have HT actually do some significant damage again 
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Since the apm from BW has been freed up by MBS and other such nonsense, use it to position and control your army if you want to avoid 1-a slugfests. A better concave, spreading out to avoid area effects, and not having your shorter range units behind the longer range ones still benefit you. It's one of the few things where you can really make your style unique from other players, and where better players can get a real advantage.
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A big part of micro atm ,especially Terran is splitting your units to reduce banelings,storm etc. To be honest it's fine as it is , because removing clumping would just dumb down the game.
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This looks a ton better, but this changes so much about game balance. Anything with splash immediately has to be rebalanced, among everything else.
I would like if this was implemented.
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If those pictures are anything to go by, then I would like to see a change like this.
Aesthetically it fits in more with the "Swarm" image that I have of the Zerg, not a giant ugly blob of units.
Good read.
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On May 17 2011 10:54 Baum wrote:
Splitting units has become a staple skill in nearly all match ups for all races. You don't want to have these powerfull AOE-units to hit a big part of your army at once. This creates a big tension and is one of the reasons people like watching Sc2. Clumped up marines moving above creep: Will they be able to split before infestors arrive or banelings roll in?
Removing this tension will not only dump down the game and make it more boring it will also result in a massive balance change since most of these AOE-units can only be effective if they have the chance to hit at least some clumped up units. For example Banelings can only be cost effective if they can hit at least 2 marines and even then it's not really an even trade.
Wait so you want the game being based around a bunch of useless clicks? 
Banelings would be better against tanks because 1 tank shot won't kill 10 banelings.
At the same time it would make marines stronger against banelings.
At the same time it would make zerglings stronger against marines.
This means you wouldn't need to do marine tank with the same boring siege->stim->run-away every single TvZ and other builds would become viable.
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just to note, 1a2a3a behaves same way as 1a unless you click on 3 different spots. doing 1a2a3a on same spot will result in 1 big ball.
as for "learn to not clump up your army", most players (i assume) micro splitting manually, not by control group. control would be for casters, blink stalker, etc., not for army splitting like marine vs baneling.
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What you people simply don't understand is that Blizzard have not and will not make any changes to make this game any more similar to BW than it already is. So the bottom line is , if you like BW mechanics more ,go play BW.
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EPT
