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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 05 2011 05:19 Zorgaz wrote:So blizzard want immortals to be better against Thor's, fair enough. But then they should also adress the fact that mass Collosi>Mass Thor. Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 05:18 PartyBiscuit wrote:
I don't see how people are debating the Thor "change", unless I'm completely misremembering the change is just the reversal of the old patch that removed Thor energy in the first place - I believe the strike cannon cost was 150 energy back then too?
The only reason I can see them being reversed back to having energy is to encourage more templar usage. I genuinely don't believe it's because of the the whole immortal discussion since that would have prevented the old patch in the first place to get rid of thor energy. If that's true it's still wierd. Templar are already really good units, can't believe people don't want to use them. And also the Archon is getting buffed making them even more valid. Don't get why they also have to be able to feedback thors, i see alot of better uses for their energy anyway.
Address the fact that mass Colossi > Mass Thor? What? I can't believe people are taking that video seriously. It has little to no practical application in competitive games, and it's an unrealistic situation. That's like me arguing that Toss should get a Zealot buff or Zerg get a Ling nerf because 100 Zealots lose badly to 400 Zerglings, according to another video. Please don't use those videos to try and argue balance, it's completely nonsensical.
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colossus do counter Thor, if they are being micro correctly. and with speed zealot, Thor never get in range of the colossus to strike cannon them.
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Errrr.... what the fuck is blizzard doing? Whats the sense of terran player who have to EMP their own army before engage a fight with toss?? Blizz??? What are you DOING? ....
But besides that, i'm satisfied with the ReChanges 
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On May 05 2011 06:26 Real-ISU wrote:Errrr.... what the fuck is blizzard doing? Whats the sense of terran player who have to EMP their own army before engage a fight with toss?? Blizz??? What are you DOING? .... But besides that, i'm satisfied with the ReChanges
Good god.
Take a 200hp hit for a potentially devistating emp on the whole ball? take away spell casting and shields for thier whole army?
no, you better waste that 100energy to make sure you dont get hit for a max of 200....
Hurdurp
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why u even try to compare thors and colossi in a straight up fight ?
i mean colo is a groundattack unit only while thors are a ground air unit. So colo is a one purpose only unit while thor is a multipurpose unit
maybe the better solution for thors would be that thor get energy bars after research and less cost for canon say 125. i also think thors and colo are somewhat a support unit they need other units aroudn to work well.
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Well if your Army consists of mainly Thors EMP-Ing your Army would kinda make more sense then getting feedbacked ^^.
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On May 05 2011 06:19 narcissus wrote:
colossus do counter Thor, if they are being micro correctly. and with speed zealot, Thor never get in range of the colossus to strike cannon them.
I don't mean to be mean here, so take this with a smiling unicorn on the other side.
You point out a very small and vacuum like circumstance. Zealots + Colossus beats Thors? Of course! Hell, why even go there? We could just send a single DT in that case, that would incur the same result. What's important to consider is a real game situation. If a Terran is going 100% thor, then yes, he deserves to lose that match, a horrible unit composition in which the Protoss reacted with a proper response. But in a real game, the Terran will have his bio, he will have his other mech units, he will have his air. As a Protoss, you will have your warpgates, your robo units, and maybe something else. It's important here to consider how Thors with energy now influence this battle. Maybe high templars will make the Thors irrelevant? With all the distractions going on, will the 250mm cannon still lock down something critical, an immortal or colossus for example? Will the Thors simply just shield the bio (trust me, Thors with armor take forever to hack down)? These are the real questions, not these very hypothetical situations.
Though it is important to consider your situations still at times, but not in this case.
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On May 05 2011 06:34 s3rp wrote:
Well if your Army consists of mainly Thors EMP-Ing your Army would kinda make more sense then getting feedbacked ^^.
....but.....u can emp the HT...EMP outranges feedback o.O
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Hmm, i thought it was a bit weird that Thors strike cannon sorta got a double nerf. Either start them with more energy or leave it as a cooldown but maybe make it longer? I dunno. Just seems strange to me to do it that way when it hasn't even really been explored too much.
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On May 05 2011 01:31 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:18 freetgy wrote:On May 05 2011 01:14 kickinhead wrote:
What is different in those two Examples other than Protoss having a much easier time to play defensively and get to the Deathball against Zerg than Terran does against Protoss, making it even more powerful?
Terran has Bunkers and PF and Tanks and Repair. For a Protoss attacking a Meching Terran directly is suicide. And Protoss has Force-Fields, Cannons, Wall-in's/Wall-Off's and Zerg's Units are mostly low-ranged or Melee, you really think that's easier? Besides; Meching requires a lot of Gas and it takes a longer time to build up than other Terran-Builds AND Toss has a much easier time scouting a Terran than Zerg does against Toss. But besides you being wrong, the point you're making isn't even relevant. Tyler argued that there is no Problem that a certain race has an almost unbeatable Unit-composition but then differentiated in his Opinion when talking about PvT rather than PvZ, which leads me to believe that his opinion isn't only flaved, but also very biased towards Protoss.
This is actually completely untrue. It is significantly harder for a protoss to defend against a zerg than for a terran to defend against an... anything. Where terran has trouble is attacking, its part of how they are setup. 1 well-positioned tank can make a terrans much smaller army hold off a much bigger push when used defensively.
Your post makes it clear that you don't play at a level above diamond, but i won't agree with tyler if he said anything was overpowered either. Maybe there was potential for abuse that blizzard was dealing with ASAP (see early void ray nerf that was addressed very quickly).
There is also a key difference in the two arguments that you are either conveniently leaving out or just don't understand. The proper response for protoss against a meching terran is to take additional bases and abuse mech's immobility. The proper response for zerg against a protoss deathball is constant well-executed aggression and spreading their army as much as possible with drops, etc. Zerg has the ability to deny a 3rd base by protoss and chip away at the deathball to keep the unit counts down. Protoss does not have the ability to chip away at a mech-turtle terran in the same way.
I see so many zerg players posting replays on the forums saying they outplayed a protoss and lost and they all involve them getting up to 5 or 6 bases, not doing jack shit, then getting rolled by a deathball. That's one of the least effective ways of combating the deathball, if not the least. You can take a fast 3rd and even forth, but you need to be doing strong aggression (see idras recent play) at the right times if you want to win and its a matchup the zerg can win if they execute properly.
I think it may have been a bit premature of a change with the thor, but you can't say Tyler's being a hypocrit or using a double standard when you clearly don't understand this game at a reasonably high level, certainly not as high as Tyler, who probably consider your argument when making his, but perhaps felt it was implied just by how obviously different the two scenarios are. if you can't see that, then you are lost.
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On May 05 2011 06:33 philippG wrote:
why u even try to compare thors and colossi in a straight up fight ?
i mean colo is a groundattack unit only while thors are a ground air unit. So colo is a one purpose only unit while thor is a multipurpose unit
maybe the better solution for thors would be that thor get energy bars after research and less cost for canon say 125. i also think thors and colo are somewhat a support unit they need other units aroudn to work well.
Unless Thors fights Mutas they suck against Air Units. Especially since it's pretty easy to bug their KI.
Has anyone of you ever seen a Thor / Carrier Fight ?. The Damn stupid Thor just randomly fire at single Interceptors. Focussing the Carrier is also pretty sad.
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On May 05 2011 06:35 RoachyRoach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 06:34 s3rp wrote:
Well if your Army consists of mainly Thors EMP-Ing your Army would kinda make more sense then getting feedbacked ^^. ....but.....u can emp the HT...EMP outranges feedback o.O
But you don't need the Thor Energy . Better save then sorry. Even if i hit all HT so what im not going to use the Thor Energy anyway and getting hit by a Feedback is way more painful then using some EMP on my own units. And it's not like i need a lot of EMP's for my own Units 1-2 should be enough . I can still effectively EMP the enemy after i'm done with my own.
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how is thor supposed to use cannons against protoss?
the only worthwhile use for cannons is against immortal, archon or colossus, and now the protoss can snipe all their energy from 9 range.... cannon range is 7 range with like a 3 second intro animation by the way.
however, thor is great without cannon and i don't have a problem with emping the thors. i just think that thor cannons became a useless upgrade.... at least make it a default ability.
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On May 05 2011 01:58 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 01:36 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 01:21 Mercury- wrote:On May 05 2011 00:21 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 00:14 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:28 Yaotzin wrote:On May 04 2011 23:19 Mercury- wrote:On May 04 2011 23:17 clownzim wrote:On May 04 2011 23:15 R3N wrote:
Strange thors aren't widely used against P but still gets nerfed :o really hope blizzard know what they're doing here. atm p has no "counter" to thors... if terran get like 10-12 thors gg toss :D Carriers, magic boxed voids, chargelots work too if your economy is much better (which it should be because Thors can't really punish you from taking lots of expos) since you can instantly rebuild with WGates. All of which die to that pesky marine unit that Terrans sometimes build. Make a Colossus or Templar? We're meant to go carrier/void AND collossus or templar to stop thor/marine? How is that supposed to work? Do you have any idea how much that shit costs? Yeah in lategame it's not a problem because you can do that. With a timing push it is a problem. All that expensive stuff you need just can't be got in time. What kind of timing attack do you mean? 1 base Thor rushes only beat extremely greedy sentry expands, and against 8-10 Thor pushes you should have either Colos or Temps to take care of the marines and your choice of anti Thor unit. Well there's several variations on it. Basically it's a 2base Thor/marine push at heart, often with tanks or something else added. If you go collo you can kill the marines, but then the thors finish you off. Same with templar. If you go all out anti-thor units - say mass immortal so even 250mm can't kill them all - then the marines/other stuff kills you. You really need two high tech units to stop it - voids + templar/collo ideally. But of course you can't get that off 2 base. As you say, very early Thors and lategame Thors aren't really a problem. The former just because there isn't really enough oomph, and the latter because you can afford both the high tech units you need. It's the timing of it that kills you. So basically it's a random timing. How's it any different than 6gate pushes?
How about by virtue of the fact that there is nothing random about a properly executed 6 warpgate timing?
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Thor, as they are now, are only powerfull, or OP as some say, because Protoss only know how to A-move they army, instead of micro.
Not saying I'm a micro genius, but when I see the deathball (stalker "sitting" under the collosus), I just giggle like a little baby.
If Protoss would move out of the "we have a Deathball" Metagame, they could do way better vs the Thor
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On May 05 2011 06:54 narcissus wrote:
Thor, as they are now, are only powerfull, or OP as some say, because Protoss only know how to A-move they army, instead of micro.
Not saying I'm a micro genius, but when I see the deathball (stalker "sitting" under the collosus), I just giggle like a little baby.
If Protoss would move out of the "we have a Deathball" Metagame, they could do way better vs the Thor
Why, exactly, will Protoss do better vs Thors in particular if the army is split up than if it is together?
There are many reasons to dislike/disapprove of the deathball, but this is not one of them.
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The more balance patches I see, the more I think that statistical adjustments aren't good enough and that this game needs a redesign. Almost nothing in the patch notes makes sense to me.
By the time a 4gate hits a Terran in 1.3.3, he would have maybe an extra marine or two. Definitely not much of a difference.
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On May 05 2011 06:54 narcissus wrote:
Thor, as they are now, are only powerfull, or OP as some say, because Protoss only know how to A-move they army, instead of micro.
Not saying I'm a micro genius, but when I see the deathball (stalker "sitting" under the collosus), I just giggle like a little baby.
If Protoss would move out of the "we have a Deathball" Metagame, they could do way better vs the Thor
I'm sorry, but how would you appropriately micro a protoss army versus a thor? There isn't really many special techniques you can do (against the thor timing push), other than move damaged units back, in terms of micro at that point of the game. You pretty much can just attack move and hope for the best :|.
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@serp why the fuck woudl u use thors against carries stim marines just do the job .....
narcissus i don t know why the nerfed it or why it had been nerfed i just know one build that implied a thor rush 2 thors rines and scv all in vs toss
which was really hard to deal but if u scouted it was manageable.
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United States5162 Posts
On May 05 2011 07:02 LoLAdriankat wrote:
The more balance patches I see, the more I think that statistical adjustments aren't good enough and that this game needs a redesign. Almost nothing in the patch notes makes sense to me.
By the time a 4gate hits a Terran in 1.3.3, he would have maybe an extra marine or two. Definitely not much of a difference.
Do you understand the intention behind the warpgate nerf? It wasn't done to effect the PvT timing, that's for sure.
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EPT
