EPTPatch 1.3.3 PTR - Page 183
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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong. It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. | ||
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Flying_Cake
Canada117 Posts
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ForayeR
Brazil34 Posts
On May 05 2011 01:50 Wyk wrote: The new TvP? Probably 200/200 Vikings, no idea what so ever. Also who said Immortals are the counter to Thors? Ooooh I get it, so the marines are countered by Stalkers. Yes, it is. Why do you think terran make marauders? Upgded Marines are better vs zealots, marauders do shit against zealots, only help the kiting (before the charge) | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
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Sv1
United States204 Posts
On May 05 2011 04:47 orz.fail wrote: + Show Spoiler + The main problem with the overbuilding is that as a response, it just might be too slow. That is not to say that Protoss can never win in such a situation, that there is no proper response, but as it is, it just razor thin. There are potentially builds or instances where Thors just appear (ie. Observer gets sniped and Toss is in the dark for a moment) and you choose a different tech path, you might just get screwed. This is not to say that other races don't have to deal with "overbuilding" as a response, but let's take a look at how that "overbuilding" occurs. For zerg, this purely resource dependent, as they have their production facility by default. What they need are larva, mineral, and gas. For terran, they have the starport and the reactor core, and with the opportunity to swap addons, the long build time of the reactor core isn't always a problem. For protoss however, they need to build a Robo, and each robo can only build 1 Immortal at a time. True, Protoss can chronoboost out immortals, but that still takes time and chronoboosts are no infinite. Overall, if caught by surprise, Protoss has the hardest time making a rapid shift in their production and their unit composition, making a timing attack that much more deadly when involving Thors. In regards to both of your posts, I think you have some pretty sound theorycrafting despite being so precise the exact numbers you use aren't terribly important but your harnessing of the unfolding battle is pretty on point. I would think though that at 3 or 4 thors you would have enough time to react or even harass the expansion that terran will need to even build that kind of army (since getting that many thors on 1 base is pretty flimsy for terran). However if this is truly the case of the difficulty protoss has vs the thor, then the change would seem to be an incredibly overblown change. As it is the immortal still does relatively well 1v1 vs a thor as well as scaling well with protoss ground army upgrades. The thor, while strong vs an immortal still has more of a pre-req and requires a research cost both in time and money (though research time can be timed so that it isn't delaying a thor). As I had just stated in a previous post that now on PTR the thor will take 3 ingame minutes from the second it pops from a factory. Meaning that if you also want to go thors, you will be relatively limited on any other starport units since you'll probably have to double or even triple factory to get thor production really pumping. Regardless of immortals though, collossus (when upgraded) still outrange and thor and with careful micro can bait them. The thor is so slow not to mention it still has to path around shooting units to get within range to fire the cannon (which also has a delay before firing). The cannon is good no doubt about it and it's helped me in some cases that I think would have been losses, but I just hope the change won't stick or at least see an adjustment because I think this is such a knee-jerk reaction. | ||
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
Thors are still super relevant because Ghosts + Thor + Bio > Immortal + Warpgate. Against the deathball, I think that Thors are excellent against, as their 250mm cannon was irrelevant for the most part anyways (Colossus are massive and thus no stun). Hmmm, good point, I suppose with the Ghost cost change it's possible to get Ghosts + Thor + some Bio, and let Thors roflstomp through anything. Just curious, would seeing a Thor prompt a Protoss to get Immortals? Because forcing them to be reactive would be good (not imba good, just nice to be the active one for once) for a Terran rather than the typical "get vikings then you see a robo bay", then roll over the colossi-less Protoss with ghosts and bio. That said, I think Thors are terrible against an established deathball, though, outranged by colossi, focused down before much damage could be done, and blocks the bioball from unleashing its power and takes away from investing in bio. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
Btw by cost of gas, generally the most important resource, immortals still beat thors easily. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:07 statikg wrote: Most of this discussion is based around the idea that immortals should counter thors, but why is this a base assumption? Btw by cost of gas, generally the most important resource, immortals still beat thors easily. That's how Blizzard designed the game. It's in their list of Thor counters. They do currently still beat them, but only in a pure Thor v Immortal fight. In anything remotely realistic they lose. Immortals need to be super good against armored stuff because they're so comically bad against the other stuff. | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
On May 05 2011 03:44 See.Blue wrote: You don't believe we landed on the moon, do you. New changes look great. Cant wait for better archons! You like making stupid and completely unrelated statements, do you. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
What makes strong is it stunning effect that negates the complete damage of very specialized Unit. (while thor of course still deals great damage, thus getting you alot ahead in such situations) | ||
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LRObot
United States153 Posts
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:09 Yaotzin wrote: That's how Blizzard designed the game. It's in their list of Thor counters. They do currently still beat them, but only in a pure Thor v Immortal fight. In anything remotely realistic they lose. Immortals need to be super good against armored stuff because they're so comically bad against the other stuff. Well i just looked at that list and BC's are supposed to be strong against Mutas . Kinda odd don't you think ? Don't think anyone ever countered Mutas with BC's . Time for Blizzard to something about that. | ||
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Imbu
United States903 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:02 Sv1 wrote: In regards to both of your posts, I think you have some pretty sound theorycrafting despite being so precise the exact numbers you use aren't terribly important but your harnessing of the unfolding battle is pretty on point. I would think though that at 3 or 4 thors you would have enough time to react or even harass the expansion that terran will need to even build that kind of army (since getting that many thors on 1 base is pretty flimsy for terran). However if this is truly the case of the difficulty protoss has vs the thor, then the change would seem to be an incredibly overblown change. As it is the immortal still does relatively well 1v1 vs a thor as well as scaling well with protoss ground army upgrades. The thor, while strong vs an immortal still has more of a pre-req and requires a research cost both in time and money (though research time can be timed so that it isn't delaying a thor). As I had just stated in a previous post that now on PTR the thor will take 3 ingame minutes from the second it pops from a factory. Meaning that if you also want to go thors, you will be relatively limited on any other starport units since you'll probably have to double or even triple factory to get thor production really pumping. Regardless of immortals though, collossus (when upgraded) still outrange and thor and with careful micro can bait them. The thor is so slow not to mention it still has to path around shooting units to get within range to fire the cannon (which also has a delay before firing). The cannon is good no doubt about it and it's helped me in some cases that I think would have been losses, but I just hope the change won't stick or at least see an adjustment because I think this is such a knee-jerk reaction. Thanks for reading through all that! As for how the Thors are made, I'm mostly thinking of a situation where the Terran is on 3 bases and this is a decisive 170-200 food push, such as game 1 between ThorZain and Tyler. Even though I would say Tyler made some ingame errors that make it irrelevant whether the Thors were energy or cooldown based, it does show the difficulty of Protoss of being able to respond to a Thor based game. Overall I agree that the change isn't absolutely necessary, I just can somewhat see where Blizzard is coming from when the propose this patch. | ||
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PartyBiscuit
Canada4525 Posts
The only reason I can see them being reversed back to having energy is to encourage more templar usage. I genuinely don't believe it's because of the the whole immortal discussion since that would have prevented the old patch in the first place to get rid of thor energy. | ||
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:18 PartyBiscuit wrote: I don't see how people are debating the Thor "change", unless I'm completely misremembering the change is just the reversal of the old patch that removed Thor energy in the first place - I believe the strike cannon cost was 150 energy back then too? The only reason I can see them being reversed back to having energy is to encourage more templar usage. I genuinely don't believe it's because of the the whole immortal discussion since that would have prevented the old patch in the first place to get rid of thor energy. If that's true it's still wierd. Templar are already really good units, can't believe people don't want to use them. And also the Archon is getting buffed making them even more valid. Don't get why they also have to be able to feedback thors, i see alot of better uses for their energy anyway. | ||
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RoachyRoach
81 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:00 ForayeR wrote: Yes, it is. Why do you think terran make marauders? Upgded Marines are better vs zealots, marauders do shit against zealots, only help the kiting (before the charge) This video is such a bad attempt to show imbalance. The thors atacking up a choked ramp while collow have a massive arc? Gimme a break. | ||
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
On May 05 2011 04:51 RoachyRoach wrote: They should let ravens absorb energy from thors. 2 birds in 1 stone ^^ thors have a way using energy without upgrade, and we might actually see some HSM. I still have never EVER been hit by a HSM. Just once I want a terran to fly into my base and HSM the shit out of my eco and autoturret my base to death. Please terrans, make this happen. Im waiting. Fly all ur buildings off teh map and mass raven and viking. G-fkin-G I tried that against a Terran, I got the autokill achievement and HSM'd one of his mineral lines as he rolled over me with his BCs. I lost pretty badly but it was fun. That said, Ravens always felt low on energy and HSM takes so much energy for a spell that never seems to hit. There are much better ways to spend that money (tanks vZ or ghosts vP). | ||
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Vestige
United States303 Posts
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:14 s3rp wrote: Well i just looked at that list and BC's are supposed to be strong against Mutas . Kinda odd don't you think ? Don't think anyone ever countered Mutas with BC's . Time for Blizzard to something about that. Well they certainly aren't the first thing you think of when countering mutas, but it's not incorrect. BCs demolish mutas. Too much armor for the mutas to do anything really. | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:18 PartyBiscuit wrote: I don't see how people are debating the Thor "change", unless I'm completely misremembering the change is just the reversal of the old patch that removed Thor energy in the first place - I believe the strike cannon cost was 150 energy back then too? The only reason I can see them being reversed back to having energy is to encourage more templar usage. I genuinely don't believe it's because of the the whole immortal discussion since that would have prevented the old patch in the first place to get rid of thor energy. Yes and that change was done to encourage the Use of Thors vs Protoss because nobody build them . They wanna revert back to that as well ? | ||
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Souljah
United States423 Posts
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