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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 05 2011 04:13 Yaotzin wrote:
Immediately obvious problem with that is that the toss can't know if you'll research it. If they don't, templar are useless and you get rolled due to lack of army. So, you have to assume they won't, so you don't go templar. Bringing us back to where we are.
What you are saying could only work if Thor would obtain energy AFTER the research of the strike cannon. And that is not how spell caster units work in Starcraft2.
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On May 05 2011 03:58 minimalistic wrote:As I feel a High Templar can counter: Banshee, Medivac, Battlecruiser, Raven, Ghost, and now back to Thor. Is this what need to find balance? Are we sure? Oh of course: EMP them. oh wait they have bigger range then ghosts. 
The problem with your HT statement is they can't actually kill most of those units without having very specific requirements in place.
HT vs banshee, the HT will lose in at least 80% of the engagements. Sure, he will do an instant 100 damage, but with 0 other attacks, it doesn't much matter.
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When is the patch going live?
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On May 05 2011 04:13 RoachyRoach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:07 narcissus wrote:
strike cannon will end up having the same function as Yamato Cannon: is just a pain in the rear, and you rather see it without.
I bet people say, "you can just emp your thor", but how sad is it, that your ghost is degraded to do friendly fire operation, instead of engage the enemy?
How would protoss fell, if they High Templar was going to be used as a friendly fire unit?
I guess what they're (blizzard) trying to tell us with this, is to use some more bio balls O_o I agree that emping your own shit would be stupid as fuck. How bout you use the range advantage + cloack to EMP the HT and the rest of the entire race? Instead of saying "Oh shit, I might take some damage, better prevent that" you should be saying "I can do hella damage right now, and possibly prevent some damage if I hit some HT" Why are all terrans saying this crap about emping thier own stuff? EMP counters HT directly, and softens up the rest of the ball. To EMP your own stuff would just be a stupid decision.
Because having to wait to get Freaking 100 Energy to be able to use an Ability that isn't all that great to begin with doesn't feel right.
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On May 05 2011 03:57 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:36 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 05 2011 03:23 s3rp wrote:On May 05 2011 03:17 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 05 2011 02:53 s3rp wrote:On May 05 2011 02:40 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 05 2011 02:17 s3rp wrote:On May 05 2011 02:15 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 05 2011 02:07 s3rp wrote:On May 05 2011 02:04 Whitewing wrote:
Thors are still the highest single target dps unit in the game, and they still tear shit up, even without strike cannons. Just EMP the high templar late game and laugh, or for extreme baller points, EMP your own Thors so he can't feedback you. Hightest single target DPS doesn't mean squat in big battles of low HP Units. Right now in Sc2 you basically mass Low Tech Units and add some High Tech Units. Thors suck vs mass lowtech Units and don't have the range to be able to reach the Hightech Units in the back. Yes in some timing pushes when both armies are still pretty small Thors are great. Other then that ? I Don't think so. Erm, the only thing that thors arent great against are zealots. Every other "low hp" (or "lowtech") unit that protoss has thors are great against o.O They are pretty mediocre against masses of Stalker just like against masses of Roaches. Combine that with Zealots its not pretty. Umm, lol? Is this post serious? 6 thors and 10 SCV's repairing (2300 minerals, 1200 gas, 46 supply) beats 25 stalkers (3125 minerals, 1250 gas, 50 supply) easily, even with stalkers focus firing the thors and nothing but 1a for the thor/scv army. Increasing those numbers to 11 thors and still 10 SCV you crush 40 stalkers easily. Stalkers are not cost efficient at killing thors unless they drastically outnumber them I just tried that yes Thors win but it's not as bad as you make it out to be. Yes Stalker are not cost efficient but you don't need to be cost efficient with Gateway Units ( just like with Barracks Units or Lings/Roaches) since it's alot easier to reeinforce. If you have a battle of 11 Thors vs 40 Stalker the remaining Thors won't be able to kill you and are alot harder to reeinforce and with Thors you'll never be able to kill expansions spread all over the Map. Yes, it is true you can reinforce with stalkers more quickly than with thors, but thats kinda beside the point. Armies dont consist of only stalkers and thors, and you said that thors were mediocre against masses of stalker, which I disproved completely. Also, not as bad as I make it out to be is all a matter of opinion. Personally, I think that when its 6 thors + 10 scv's vs 25 stalkers and 2-3 thors are still alive at the end thats pretty crushing. Then 11 vs 40 you still have 5 thors. Sure, its not a fight where the terran loses nothing but thats still a pretty significant lead to have half of your army live. Well Thors are mediocre against low Tech Units compared to Kolossi , lets say it like that. Even compared to tanks . They are just all around a mediocre Unit in Lategame because they don't deal AOE Damage and do damage pretty slowly. ( well compared to other Units ) Thats not exactly a fair comparison considering the colossus was designed to counter low health low tier units while the thor is designed to just deal huge amounts of damage in chunks. The thor is great against protoss because of the fact that all protoss units have enough hp for that burst damage to be useful, while less effective (against ground at least) against zerg because of lings and banelings which just swarm. The Kolossus is still great against all Protoss Ground Units , isn't it ? Whats the proper response to Kolossus Stalker as a Protoss other building Kolossus themselves ? The Thor is not bad don't get me wrong but it costs the same as the Kollosus and is not nearly as effective ( just as the Ultralist isn't ) .
Let me rephrase, the colossus is good against lots of smallish units because thats what it is designed for. In PvP this comes into play because stalkers and zealots are used A LOT.
The thor and the colossus should not be compared. At all. They are entirely different units with different designs in mind. The thor does pretty damn well against any medium-large unit and not so great against small units. The colossus does pretty damn well against any small-medium unit and not so great against large units (and obviously air).
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The biggest issue I really have with the thor change is that abilities/spells are supposed to improve the role of an unit while for the thor it is in 95% of cases just an annoyance or at best not used at all. There is not a single other unit which behaves like that.
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On May 05 2011 04:17 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:58 minimalistic wrote:As I feel a High Templar can counter: Banshee, Medivac, Battlecruiser, Raven, Ghost, and now back to Thor. Is this what need to find balance? Are we sure? Oh of course: EMP them. oh wait they have bigger range then ghosts. The problem with your HT statement is they can't actually kill most of those units without having very specific requirements in place. HT vs banshee, the HT will lose in at least 80% of the engagements. Sure, he will do an instant 100 damage, but with 0 other attacks, it doesn't much matter.
Since when HT and Banshee engages 1on1? There will be always something next to them. Except harass with banshees than the banshee might be alone. But not the HTs
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On May 05 2011 04:18 Rasky wrote:
When is the patch going live?
Most likely after the GSL season.
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why don't we just emp HT? doesn't goast have longer range and clock?
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But the damn Game is designed about having tons of small/medium Units. There's virtually no Situation where the Thors strengh against High HP Units comes to use.
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On May 05 2011 04:17 minimalistic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:13 Yaotzin wrote:
Immediately obvious problem with that is that the toss can't know if you'll research it. If they don't, templar are useless and you get rolled due to lack of army. So, you have to assume they won't, so you don't go templar. Bringing us back to where we are. What you are saying could only work if Thor would obtain energy AFTER the research of the strike cannon. And that is not how spell caster units work in Starcraft2.
Yes I was responding to the people who suggested that it should work like this.
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On May 05 2011 04:19 Fleshy wrote:
why don't we just emp HT? doesn't goast have longer range and clock?
You won't always hit their HT, But you can ALWAYS hit your own Thors
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Thors have energy again *sigh*
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On May 05 2011 04:10 Sv1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:04 RoachyRoach wrote:On May 05 2011 03:55 Toxi78 wrote:
does anyone understand what they are doing with thors ? they removed mana to make it viable in TvP, it made it viable, far from imbalanced really, and now they say "oh fuck we actually see something else than MMM in TvP LOOOL" and bring back mana. add mana remove strike cannon upgrade, or let it as it was,because right now it's kinda ridiculous. The people at blizzard are smarter than you. Dont try to act like you know best for a game. Yeah, you play a game, and get your kicks. Blizzard has way more at stake, the games are how they survive as a business. Thier intentions lie in making the game fun for everyone, and therefore they strive for a balanced game even more than you or him or him or him or Idra. I cant believe the hate blizzard recieves after such a rediculously good track record with thier games. Your not entitled to fuckall, you paid your $50 and you got $50 worth of fun. Everything else is just gravy. Everyone fuckoff with ur blizzard hate. They bring you games that you love. Have some faith ffs. Well, to be honest, the people at blizzard rely on us the players to test these things (hence the ptr) and look at games and the broader picture as well. Seeing a pretty drastic change without any sort of justification SHOULD see the response you are seeing. Remember how happy terrans were when the energy was removed entirely? You also have to look at the history of the 250mm cannon from the days when it came already researched to the energy cost etc. We know why the changes to the warpgates were being made because blizzard has already stated they were looking at PvP. Additionally you have an infestor change which, in light of the recent infestor changes makes sense as a tweak. But now you have the thor being changed after a few patches of it being untouched (the repairing scv target priority is an indirect change) is a little, well, unfounded perhaps, especially when such a drastic change isn't released in the original test patch, what was it that blizzard saw between the original PTR 1.3 and now that warranted it to be on there?
Im not saying that they are always making the right decisions. Im saying that the point of the PTR is to test, just like you said.
So go test, generate some data for blizzard to go off of. Just coming to TL and bitching about how dumb blizzard is doesnt help fuckall. Its just biting the hand that feeds.
People just act like the creative geniuses at blizzard are all just nerfbat swinging monkies with trollfaces. Its just a short sighted and stupid way to think.
Just know, that blizzard gives 100000x more of a shit than you do about balance in the game.
Thats all I was saying.
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On May 05 2011 04:20 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:17 minimalistic wrote:On May 05 2011 04:13 Yaotzin wrote:
Immediately obvious problem with that is that the toss can't know if you'll research it. If they don't, templar are useless and you get rolled due to lack of army. So, you have to assume they won't, so you don't go templar. Bringing us back to where we are. What you are saying could only work if Thor would obtain energy AFTER the research of the strike cannon. And that is not how spell caster units work in Starcraft2. Yes I was responding to the people who suggested that it should work like this.
My bad.
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On May 05 2011 04:19 TBO wrote:
The biggest issue I really have with the thor change is that abilities/spells are supposed to improve the role of an unit while for the thor it is in 95% of cases just an annoyance or at best not used at all. There is not a single other unit which behaves like that.
Er... the 150mm directly counters the direct counter (immortal). How does that not improve the role of the unit?
And yes, Yamato Cannon behaves like this as well. Battlecruisers already blast the crap out of people. Yamato is not that necessary, but Battlecruisers can be feedbacked.
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On May 05 2011 04:18 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:13 RoachyRoach wrote:On May 05 2011 04:07 narcissus wrote:
strike cannon will end up having the same function as Yamato Cannon: is just a pain in the rear, and you rather see it without.
I bet people say, "you can just emp your thor", but how sad is it, that your ghost is degraded to do friendly fire operation, instead of engage the enemy?
How would protoss fell, if they High Templar was going to be used as a friendly fire unit?
I guess what they're (blizzard) trying to tell us with this, is to use some more bio balls O_o I agree that emping your own shit would be stupid as fuck. How bout you use the range advantage + cloack to EMP the HT and the rest of the entire race? Instead of saying "Oh shit, I might take some damage, better prevent that" you should be saying "I can do hella damage right now, and possibly prevent some damage if I hit some HT" Why are all terrans saying this crap about emping thier own stuff? EMP counters HT directly, and softens up the rest of the ball. To EMP your own stuff would just be a stupid decision. Because having to wait to get Freaking 100 Energy to be able to use an Ability that isn't all that great to begin with doesn't feel right.
....dude
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On May 05 2011 04:04 RoachyRoach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:55 Toxi78 wrote:
does anyone understand what they are doing with thors ? they removed mana to make it viable in TvP, it made it viable, far from imbalanced really, and now they say "oh fuck we actually see something else than MMM in TvP LOOOL" and bring back mana. add mana remove strike cannon upgrade, or let it as it was,because right now it's kinda ridiculous. The people at blizzard are smarter than you.
i stopped to belive in that early in beta, back when people wanted in the game micro to be more significant aka bw-like (there were plenty of videos and special maps which allowed move shot etc) few days later blizzard intruduced wonderful phoenix with their "move shot", that day i realized this guys have no clue what we are talking about and i wouldnt put much faith in them.
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On May 05 2011 04:22 RoachyRoach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:18 s3rp wrote:On May 05 2011 04:13 RoachyRoach wrote:On May 05 2011 04:07 narcissus wrote:
strike cannon will end up having the same function as Yamato Cannon: is just a pain in the rear, and you rather see it without.
I bet people say, "you can just emp your thor", but how sad is it, that your ghost is degraded to do friendly fire operation, instead of engage the enemy?
How would protoss fell, if they High Templar was going to be used as a friendly fire unit?
I guess what they're (blizzard) trying to tell us with this, is to use some more bio balls O_o I agree that emping your own shit would be stupid as fuck. How bout you use the range advantage + cloack to EMP the HT and the rest of the entire race? Instead of saying "Oh shit, I might take some damage, better prevent that" you should be saying "I can do hella damage right now, and possibly prevent some damage if I hit some HT" Why are all terrans saying this crap about emping thier own stuff? EMP counters HT directly, and softens up the rest of the ball. To EMP your own stuff would just be a stupid decision. Because having to wait to get Freaking 100 Energy to be able to use an Ability that isn't all that great to begin with doesn't feel right. ....dude
250mm Cannons is not an Amazing Ability right now . Making Thor have to regenerate 100 Energy to use it will make it not beeing used.
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On May 05 2011 04:22 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:19 TBO wrote:
The biggest issue I really have with the thor change is that abilities/spells are supposed to improve the role of an unit while for the thor it is in 95% of cases just an annoyance or at best not used at all. There is not a single other unit which behaves like that. Er... the 150mm directly counters the direct counter (immortal). How does that not improve the role of the unit? And yes, Yamato Cannon behaves like this as well. Battlecruisers already blast the crap out of people. Yamato is not that necessary, but Battlecruisers can be feedbacked.
Yamato Cannon does 400 Damage on all Units and Building and is alot faster charged then Strike Cannon. 250mm is only usefull against 3 Units. I mean the Autoaatack of a Thor is almost as good as a strike Cannon.
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EPT
