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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 05 2011 03:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:15 Zorgaz wrote:
The Thor change is so random too :O, name one pro who thinks thors are too strong? Only dude i see using Thors is Thorzain, and they didn't look imba that game at all. It was a valid tactic that he knew very well and it took MC off guard. Really hope they change their mind about it. LiquidTyler, Day 9 and Incontrol thought the change was good. Strike cannons make it so you need to have more Immortals than Thors. Immortals are supposed to be good against Thors. If you listen to LiquidTyler, he was comming up with a build using Immortals and phonixes and was picking up this Immortals when they got cannoned. Even Idra was suprised A: that it worked and B: that Tyler was resorting to that. I think the change was to stop an abuse before it became wide spread.
Well considering InControl plays Protoss too and Tyler got clowned by mass Thors in TSL, yeah no surprise they want Terran to be weaker.
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On May 05 2011 03:23 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:17 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 05 2011 02:53 s3rp wrote:On May 05 2011 02:40 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 05 2011 02:17 s3rp wrote:On May 05 2011 02:15 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 05 2011 02:07 s3rp wrote:On May 05 2011 02:04 Whitewing wrote:
Thors are still the highest single target dps unit in the game, and they still tear shit up, even without strike cannons. Just EMP the high templar late game and laugh, or for extreme baller points, EMP your own Thors so he can't feedback you. Hightest single target DPS doesn't mean squat in big battles of low HP Units. Right now in Sc2 you basically mass Low Tech Units and add some High Tech Units. Thors suck vs mass lowtech Units and don't have the range to be able to reach the Hightech Units in the back. Yes in some timing pushes when both armies are still pretty small Thors are great. Other then that ? I Don't think so. Erm, the only thing that thors arent great against are zealots. Every other "low hp" (or "lowtech") unit that protoss has thors are great against o.O They are pretty mediocre against masses of Stalker just like against masses of Roaches. Combine that with Zealots its not pretty. Umm, lol? Is this post serious? 6 thors and 10 SCV's repairing (2300 minerals, 1200 gas, 46 supply) beats 25 stalkers (3125 minerals, 1250 gas, 50 supply) easily, even with stalkers focus firing the thors and nothing but 1a for the thor/scv army. Increasing those numbers to 11 thors and still 10 SCV you crush 40 stalkers easily. Stalkers are not cost efficient at killing thors unless they drastically outnumber them I just tried that yes Thors win but it's not as bad as you make it out to be. Yes Stalker are not cost efficient but you don't need to be cost efficient with Gateway Units ( just like with Barracks Units or Lings/Roaches) since it's alot easier to reeinforce. If you have a battle of 11 Thors vs 40 Stalker the remaining Thors won't be able to kill you and are alot harder to reeinforce and with Thors you'll never be able to kill expansions spread all over the Map. Yes, it is true you can reinforce with stalkers more quickly than with thors, but thats kinda beside the point. Armies dont consist of only stalkers and thors, and you said that thors were mediocre against masses of stalker, which I disproved completely. Also, not as bad as I make it out to be is all a matter of opinion. Personally, I think that when its 6 thors + 10 scv's vs 25 stalkers and 2-3 thors are still alive at the end thats pretty crushing. Then 11 vs 40 you still have 5 thors. Sure, its not a fight where the terran loses nothing but thats still a pretty significant lead to have half of your army live. Well Thors are mediocre against low Tech Units compared to Kolossi , lets say it like that. Even compared to tanks . They are just all around a mediocre Unit in Lategame because they don't deal AOE Damage and do damage pretty slowly. ( well compared to other Units )
Thats not exactly a fair comparison considering the colossus was designed to counter low health low tier units while the thor is designed to just deal huge amounts of damage in chunks. The thor is great against protoss because of the fact that all protoss units have enough hp for that burst damage to be useful, while less effective (against ground at least) against zerg because of lings and banelings which just swarm.
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On May 05 2011 03:28 Blasterion wrote:
I don't see why Colossus has to be the only Ground Unit that has complete dominance over every other Ground Unit
And unlike every other ground unit it's completely defenseless versus air-to-air. You just can't compare them like that 
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On May 05 2011 03:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:15 Zorgaz wrote:
The Thor change is so random too :O, name one pro who thinks thors are too strong? Only dude i see using Thors is Thorzain, and they didn't look imba that game at all. It was a valid tactic that he knew very well and it took MC off guard. Really hope they change their mind about it. LiquidTyler, Day 9 and Incontrol thought the change was good. Strike cannons make it so you need to have more Immortals than Thors. Immortals are supposed to be good against Thors. If you listen to LiquidTyler, he was comming up with a build using Immortals and phonixes and was picking up this Immortals when they got cannoned. Even Idra was suprised A: that it worked and B: that Tyler was resorting to that. I think the change was to stop an abuse before it became wide spread.
why shouldn't you need more immortals than thors? thors cost 300/200 immortals 250/100, immortals have a BUILT IN NON RESEARCHED 10 damage shield that makes them awesome other than just for sniping thors, and inorder for thors to properly handle a decent sized army of immortals, we have to manually cast a bunch of super slow cast animation spells that has to be RESEARCHED. It's pretty stupid to think you can go 1 to 1 with a thor vs immortal and should win. You shouldn't,
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On May 05 2011 03:35 TBO wrote:
Thors should only get energy when the upgrade is researched or something... having Templars as hard counter to thors is silly.
But if Thors would get Energy by Upgrading Strike Cannons nobody would get the Upgrade .... oh wait nobody will anyway with the Current change. Just remove the damn thing.
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I do not see the point in the archon buff, just seems taht a toss late game is going to get even stronger, what they were trying to avoid in the previous patch.
I also don't understand the infesor nerf, how were they too fast, just means im going to lose them to siege tanks more : /
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Infestor nerf might actually be a buff because they won't lead the charge anymore :D
10% speed reduction isn't that much, and burrowed speed wasn't affected at all so I don't think it will change too much.
Removal of strike cannons would be so much better than what Terran gets now again... its basically the only unit which has an disadvantage because of having energy.
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On May 05 2011 03:36 Stijn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:28 Blasterion wrote:
I don't see why Colossus has to be the only Ground Unit that has complete dominance over every other Ground Unit And unlike every other ground unit it's completely defenseless versus air-to-air. You just can't compare them like that
But have enough Range that you will be able to protect them more them well enough to still to do insane Damage before they eventually die.
The Thing with Air-Air Units countering Kollosi is. Air-Air Units become almost useless without Kollosi . The Thor Counters are still pretty good even when Thors are gone.
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On May 05 2011 03:27 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:24 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2011 03:15 Zorgaz wrote:
The Thor change is so random too :O, name one pro who thinks thors are too strong? Only dude i see using Thors is Thorzain, and they didn't look imba that game at all. It was a valid tactic that he knew very well and it took MC off guard. Really hope they change their mind about it. LiquidTyler, Day 9 and Incontrol thought the change was good. Strike cannons make it so you need to have more Immortals than Thors. Immortals are supposed to be good against Thors. If you listen to LiquidTyler, he was comming up with a build using Immortals and phonixes and was picking up this Immortals when they got cannoned. Even Idra was suprised A: that it worked and B: that Tyler was resorting to that. I think the change was to stop an abuse before it became wide spread.
How can you call it a abuse? Damn 90% of toss players are crushing Terran armies with Collosi, and terran players have to resort to jumping into Medivacs and even I was surprised that A: That stalkers sniped the medivac and B: That the units would have died anyway.
It must be a abuse nerf them.
No, but in all seriousness I think that the Collosi needs more reworking then the Thor. And i would call what Tyler is doing creativity, don't see what's bad about it-.
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On May 05 2011 03:37 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:24 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2011 03:15 Zorgaz wrote:
The Thor change is so random too :O, name one pro who thinks thors are too strong? Only dude i see using Thors is Thorzain, and they didn't look imba that game at all. It was a valid tactic that he knew very well and it took MC off guard. Really hope they change their mind about it. LiquidTyler, Day 9 and Incontrol thought the change was good. Strike cannons make it so you need to have more Immortals than Thors. Immortals are supposed to be good against Thors. If you listen to LiquidTyler, he was comming up with a build using Immortals and phonixes and was picking up this Immortals when they got cannoned. Even Idra was suprised A: that it worked and B: that Tyler was resorting to that. I think the change was to stop an abuse before it became wide spread. why shouldn't you need more immortals than thors? thors cost 300/200 immortals 250/100, immortals have a BUILT IN NON RESEARCHED 10 damage shield that makes them awesome other than just for sniping thors, and inorder for thors to properly handle a decent sized army of immortals, we have to manually cast a bunch of super slow cast animation spells that has to be RESEARCHED. It's pretty stupid to think you can go 1 to 1 with a thor vs immortal and should win. You shouldn't,
What should it take? Immortals are supposed to be really good against units like Thors and Tanks, after all. At the moment they're downright bad. You can't economically kill Thors with Immortals (let alone get an advantage out of it). You still won't be able to after this, but at least Thors get a big weakness to go with that trick.
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It's funny how terrans will have to now EMP their own units haha. Maybe blizzard just wanted ghosts to be used more? It's really funny if you think about it.
Seriously, either that or you will have to start killing your own units/buildings with the strike cannon just to get rid of the energy. Anyone in their right mind should be able to see how goddamn silly that is. Please just think about it.
I've never complained about TvP balance, always thought it was fine (and still do), but this just makes the matchup boring, and we are afterall doing this for fun arent we? I mean, now we all have to go pure bio again. I dont see mech ever working.
Meanwhile i feel betrayed by protoss players!  I kept defending you guys. I thought the warpgate change was too harsh, and i've even defended the colossus. Then after all of this you just betray me by saying that the thor (the THOR of all units) is too good? What about the marauder? The marine? The viking? I could've at least understood your complaint if it was about bio. But thors?
People are talking about 1 base or 2 base timing attacks with thor/marine/tank/raven/whatever (everyone is saying something different) but i've never actually seen it outside of a few rare replays, and it has never seemed overwhelmingly strong.
Anyways protoss players, we offered you a different TvP. One where it wasnt just MMM vs deathball, one where terrans and protoss players had a choice of what units to build, but you declined, and you chose to forever be stuck with bio. Well, i'm gonna proxy 2 rax for the rest of my life to make you pay! *raises fist*
heh
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On May 05 2011 03:35 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:24 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2011 03:15 Zorgaz wrote:
The Thor change is so random too :O, name one pro who thinks thors are too strong? Only dude i see using Thors is Thorzain, and they didn't look imba that game at all. It was a valid tactic that he knew very well and it took MC off guard. Really hope they change their mind about it. LiquidTyler, Day 9 and Incontrol thought the change was good. Strike cannons make it so you need to have more Immortals than Thors. Immortals are supposed to be good against Thors. If you listen to LiquidTyler, he was comming up with a build using Immortals and phonixes and was picking up this Immortals when they got cannoned. Even Idra was suprised A: that it worked and B: that Tyler was resorting to that. I think the change was to stop an abuse before it became wide spread. Well considering InControl plays Protoss too and Tyler got clowned by mass Thors in TSL, yeah no surprise they want Terran to be weaker.
You don't believe we landed on the moon, do you.
New changes look great. Cant wait for better archons!
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The infestor speed change is a buff for zerg as the infestors wont now go massively ahead of the rest of the army even stated by idra and machine on state of the game.
Also the complaints about the thor energy arn't bad feedback does 1 damage per energy and the thor has 400 hp so at an abosulute maximum a templar can do 200 damage to a thor and then it basically can do no damage to that thor for a very long time so i dont really understand how casting a spell that will likely be at the cost of a storm to do mabye 200 damage to a thor and then no damage there after is a "hard counter"
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On May 05 2011 03:44 Zaros wrote:
The infestor speed change is a buff for zerg as the infestors wont now go massively ahead of the rest of the army even stated by idra and machine on state of the game.
Please be clear: it's a buff for Zergs with bad unit control. It's a nerf for a player who can control his infestors properly.
Not that it's a big deal either way.
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Anyone able to find anything from blizzard justifying the Thor change? The 250mm cannon may now be in the same class as yamato, though the only difference is that seeing yamato is rare becuase seeing BCs in general is so infrequent to begin with, let alone they survive long enough to build energy (or the game continues to go that long).
I don't see why the damage couldn't be changed along with channeling time. 200 over 3 seconds? 100 insta shot with a 90 second cd? For awhile it was a good alternative to going heavy vikings in which you could go a bio/thor mix instead of bio/medivac/vikings. As it is, the cannon still requires considerable positioning and the thor is still pretty slow and clumsy compared to other massive units.
I wouldn't go as far to say that this removes the Thor from the game, but it certainly is going to make 250mm cannon go the way of the reaper.
I guess we'll just have to see if it sticks or is just a temporary change.
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On May 05 2011 03:43 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:37 Kazeyonoma wrote:On May 05 2011 03:24 Plansix wrote:On May 05 2011 03:15 Zorgaz wrote:
The Thor change is so random too :O, name one pro who thinks thors are too strong? Only dude i see using Thors is Thorzain, and they didn't look imba that game at all. It was a valid tactic that he knew very well and it took MC off guard. Really hope they change their mind about it. LiquidTyler, Day 9 and Incontrol thought the change was good. Strike cannons make it so you need to have more Immortals than Thors. Immortals are supposed to be good against Thors. If you listen to LiquidTyler, he was comming up with a build using Immortals and phonixes and was picking up this Immortals when they got cannoned. Even Idra was suprised A: that it worked and B: that Tyler was resorting to that. I think the change was to stop an abuse before it became wide spread. why shouldn't you need more immortals than thors? thors cost 300/200 immortals 250/100, immortals have a BUILT IN NON RESEARCHED 10 damage shield that makes them awesome other than just for sniping thors, and inorder for thors to properly handle a decent sized army of immortals, we have to manually cast a bunch of super slow cast animation spells that has to be RESEARCHED. It's pretty stupid to think you can go 1 to 1 with a thor vs immortal and should win. You shouldn't, What should it take? Immortals are supposed to be really good against units like Thors and Tanks, after all. At the moment they're downright bad. You can't economically kill Thors with Immortals (let alone get an advantage out of it). You still won't be able to after this, but at least Thors get a big weakness to go with that trick.
The problem with this change they do however is that templars are now "really good" vs Thors... which means there is yet another Terran unit which is weak vs templar - leaving pretty much just the marauder and siege tank who are good vs templar armies.
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On May 05 2011 03:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:15 Zorgaz wrote:
The Thor change is so random too :O, name one pro who thinks thors are too strong? Only dude i see using Thors is Thorzain, and they didn't look imba that game at all. It was a valid tactic that he knew very well and it took MC off guard. Really hope they change their mind about it. LiquidTyler, Day 9 and Incontrol thought the change was good. Strike cannons make it so you need to have more Immortals than Thors. Immortals are supposed to be good against Thors. If you listen to LiquidTyler, he was comming up with a build using Immortals and phonixes and was picking up this Immortals when they got cannoned. Even Idra was suprised A: that it worked and B: that Tyler was resorting to that. I think the change was to stop an abuse before it became wide spread.
Dude, tyler said he liked the change personally, but even he said that he's happy it got nerfed before anyone could see if it's over powered or not, essentially admitting that Thors have not as yet been proven to be over powered vs protoss.
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MAKE THORS, GET FEEDBACKED.
Immortals? Don't make me blush. HT's can tear through energy like a thief in an unsecured shopping mall.
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On May 05 2011 03:46 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:44 Zaros wrote:
The infestor speed change is a buff for zerg as the infestors wont now go massively ahead of the rest of the army even stated by idra and machine on state of the game.
Please be clear: it's a buff for Zergs with bad unit control. It's a nerf for a player who can control his infestors properly. Not that it's a big deal either way.
Idra and machine said it was a buff for them and they have some of the best unit control in the game.
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On May 05 2011 03:50 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:46 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 03:44 Zaros wrote:
The infestor speed change is a buff for zerg as the infestors wont now go massively ahead of the rest of the army even stated by idra and machine on state of the game.
Please be clear: it's a buff for Zergs with bad unit control. It's a nerf for a player who can control his infestors properly. Not that it's a big deal either way. Idra and machine said it was a buff for them and they have some of the best unit control in the game.
I don't think current pros have good unit control at all, even the better ones like IdrA. Some of them (hi Losira) have fucking awful control.
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EPT
