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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
Archon with 3 range...interesting...I would prefer a greater splash over range as now the archon range sucks but having a weird midrange unit is interesting as well. Its makes protoss seem to have "lines" attacking, zealots in front, then archon, then sentry/immortal and then stalker and then collossus. Having every protoss unit have a different range is really interesting and can increase DPS a lot.
I just love archons but its disappointing that they are so bad against mutas but whatever =/ At least they are cheaper to get gas wise with dTS.
Thor change is stupid. Thors were strong but there was no need to change. I guess they are just trying to reconcile for the shitty ht.
Blizzard needs to let players figure out strategies instead of fixing everything. I think balance is good enough except for pvp shenanigans and so I think that blizzard should leave all the other matchups alone and not just listen to qq.
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On May 05 2011 02:29 IntoTheSnow wrote:
Thors getting nerf is the last thing TvP needs. TvP at its current state hugely favours P especially on maps like Tal and Crevasse. P deathball have to be addressed at some point and P ability to chrono units like collo out at double speed have to be corrected too.
Say it all you want, the evidence disagrees.
This blind "Protoss is OP!!!" with zero evidence to back it up, is extremely tiresome. Hell, the evidence actually indicates the opposite, if anything.
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On May 05 2011 02:45 space_yes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:43 Kazeyonoma wrote:
wow, way to make thor 250mm cannon almost impossible to use. seriously, 150 energy to use, start with 50, require research time, and just sit around for 100 seconds before being to fire it off ONCE, and never again from the slowest unit in the game? will I be refunded the energy if the unit walks out while i take 5 seconds to do my cast animation? and with feedback, will ANY thors ever reach 150 energy? this makes the 250mm cannon almost ridiculous to pick up, WHY would you ever get it. to 3 shot a nexus that would've likely died to regular attacks anyways? completely superficial spell now that will never see gameplay. needs to be thought about further on PTR imo. You should research it so you can use it on some destructible rocks before a battle, that way you'll lose less HP to feedback.
Well, that would be amazing.
The unit is handicapped from the beginning because it HAS energy regardless if the upgrade was upgraded or not, thus it can be feedbacked. So it needs to upgrade an expensive upgrade just to waste the energy to not have it feedbacked instantly.
If anything, the thors shouldn't have energy before they have the strikecannon. And just get 100 energy when the upgrade is done and they have already been built.
I really do not get the protoss complaining about Thors strike cannon. I've been working on anti-deathball builds since like january, and now have a reasonable winrate against them (40% on good maps ). It took me hell of a long time, but I got where I am now.
Yet when the protoss has a tough 'unwinnable' opponent, they just chill and let blizzard fight it.
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On May 05 2011 02:40 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:17 s3rp wrote:On May 05 2011 02:15 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 05 2011 02:07 s3rp wrote:On May 05 2011 02:04 Whitewing wrote:
Thors are still the highest single target dps unit in the game, and they still tear shit up, even without strike cannons. Just EMP the high templar late game and laugh, or for extreme baller points, EMP your own Thors so he can't feedback you. Hightest single target DPS doesn't mean squat in big battles of low HP Units. Right now in Sc2 you basically mass Low Tech Units and add some High Tech Units. Thors suck vs mass lowtech Units and don't have the range to be able to reach the Hightech Units in the back. Yes in some timing pushes when both armies are still pretty small Thors are great. Other then that ? I Don't think so. Erm, the only thing that thors arent great against are zealots. Every other "low hp" (or "lowtech") unit that protoss has thors are great against o.O They are pretty mediocre against masses of Stalker just like against masses of Roaches. Combine that with Zealots its not pretty. Umm, lol? Is this post serious? 6 thors and 10 SCV's repairing (2300 minerals, 1200 gas, 46 supply) beats 25 stalkers (3125 minerals, 1250 gas, 50 supply) easily, even with stalkers focus firing the thors and nothing but 1a for the thor/scv army. Increasing those numbers to 11 thors and still 10 SCV you crush 40 stalkers easily. Stalkers are not cost efficient at killing thors unless they drastically outnumber them
I just tried that yes Thors win but it's not as bad as you make it out to be. Yes Stalker are not cost efficient but you don't need to be cost efficient with Gateway Units ( just like with Barracks Units or Lings/Roaches) since it's alot easier to reeinforce. If you have a battle of 11 Thors vs 40 Stalker the remaining Thors won't be able to kill you and are alot harder to reeinforce and with Thors you'll never be able to kill expansions spread all over the Map.
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On May 05 2011 00:50 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 00:48 TheResidentEvil wrote:
Colossus do horrible against Thors. Dumb even to suggest it. Anyone who has tried it knows they suck hard against thors Colossus are good against everything on the ground, including Thors, Colossus are faster and have longer range and can traverse terrain, 1 colossus can indefinitely kite 1 thor, Colossus also do splash.
Most of your posts have been exceedingly stupid.
Are you mentally retarded? Just asking.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Can someone please provide some replays or VODs of all this Thor OPnes? The thorzain replays don't count because thorzain just outplayed his opponent.
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On May 05 2011 02:53 zanmat0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 00:50 Blasterion wrote:On May 05 2011 00:48 TheResidentEvil wrote:
Colossus do horrible against Thors. Dumb even to suggest it. Anyone who has tried it knows they suck hard against thors Colossus are good against everything on the ground, including Thors, Colossus are faster and have longer range and can traverse terrain, 1 colossus can indefinitely kite 1 thor, Colossus also do splash. Most of your posts have been exceedingly stupid. Are you mentally retarded? Just asking.
His point is valid, if not for quite the right reasons. If you keep your colossus away from the thors and keep zealots in front, they can compete with thors because the zealots will completely bug out the thors if they try anything and if the zealots die, kite backwards, thors are slow and their supporting army depend on them to tank. Why should other races be the only ones who have to micro in battles?
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On May 05 2011 02:48 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:29 IntoTheSnow wrote:
Thors getting nerf is the last thing TvP needs. TvP at its current state hugely favours P especially on maps like Tal and Crevasse. P deathball have to be addressed at some point and P ability to chrono units like collo out at double speed have to be corrected too.
Say it all you want, the evidence disagrees. This blind "Protoss is OP!!!" with zero evidence to back it up, is extremely tiresome. Hell, the evidence actually indicates the opposite, if anything.
oh the irony, reminds me of this
On May 05 2011 02:00 Yaotzin wrote:
My bad, misremembered. So there are 2 builds toss can't really stop, both based around Thors. Funny that.
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On May 05 2011 02:48 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:29 IntoTheSnow wrote:
Thors getting nerf is the last thing TvP needs. TvP at its current state hugely favours P especially on maps like Tal and Crevasse. P deathball have to be addressed at some point and P ability to chrono units like collo out at double speed have to be corrected too.
Say it all you want, the evidence disagrees. This blind "Protoss is OP!!!" with zero evidence to back it up, is extremely tiresome. Hell, the evidence actually indicates the opposite, if anything.
what evidence is that? i don't see why you need to turn this thread into yet another balance discussion anyway.
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On May 05 2011 02:48 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:29 IntoTheSnow wrote:
Thors getting nerf is the last thing TvP needs. TvP at its current state hugely favours P especially on maps like Tal and Crevasse. P deathball have to be addressed at some point and P ability to chrono units like collo out at double speed have to be corrected too.
Say it all you want, the evidence disagrees. This blind "Protoss is OP!!!" with zero evidence to back it up, is extremely tiresome. Hell, the evidence actually indicates the opposite, if anything.
On May 05 2011 02:00 Yaotzin wrote:
My bad, misremembered. So there are 2 builds toss can't really stop, both based around Thors. Funny that.
Clearly he forgot that all his posts were on 1 hotkey..
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On May 05 2011 02:58 ridonkulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:48 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 02:29 IntoTheSnow wrote:
Thors getting nerf is the last thing TvP needs. TvP at its current state hugely favours P especially on maps like Tal and Crevasse. P deathball have to be addressed at some point and P ability to chrono units like collo out at double speed have to be corrected too.
Say it all you want, the evidence disagrees. This blind "Protoss is OP!!!" with zero evidence to back it up, is extremely tiresome. Hell, the evidence actually indicates the opposite, if anything. oh the irony, reminds me of this Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:00 Yaotzin wrote:
My bad, misremembered. So there are 2 builds toss can't really stop, both based around Thors. Funny that.
Why did it remind you of that?
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Because you made a statement (whose validity many people doubt, including myself) without presenting evidence and then accused other people of doing the same.
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On May 05 2011 02:29 IntoTheSnow wrote:
Most P rely on timing attack and just A-move their way to win by doing things like FF the ramp... P skill level should be as demanding as it is now right after the removal of amulet and uprising of thor openings. The statistic are showing the better toss players are learning the game instead of 4 gating, 5 gate nexus cancel, 6 gate. These brainless builds getting nullified actually make this game more enjoyable. I have no idea why blizzard wants to make sc2 a game so newbie friendly till its no longer exciting on tournament level. I mean when was the last time you see a normal macro PvZ, PvT on ladder.
i don't usually like to disagree with people on the forums but.... toss rely on timing attacks? really? i have a whole set of defenses for the huge amounts of 11 min all ins terrans have. Lets also look at brainless builds, the 2 thor strike cannon rush is about as brainless as it gets, you build 2 thors and about 10 marriens and push with SCV on auto repair. the ONLY micro you have in that push is to hit the immortals will the strike cannon. That really does not seem to take a lot of brain power. And the last time i saw a macro game in PvT and PvZ is the last time i played them. The only time my PvT every ends early is if 1, the terran cant hold 3 gate (which is like me not being able to hold a 2 rax, which only happens if i am SUPER greedy) or 2. terran does a 11 min timing attack
Now to the actual patch, i like it a lot. I think Bliz might be making toss relay even MORE on FF in the early game with the 20 second delay on WG but the gateway units train at the same time except the sentry. I understand that we cant have the 33 second zels though because of the huge problem with proxie 2 gate it causes.
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I think the Thor change is random and unnecessary. It would be nice to face something else than bio in PvT once in a while. Blizzard also have no idea what they want with the WG research timing, the infestor speed, the pylon radius... All these changes coming out of left field, absolutely unjustified by the current state of the game.
Disappointed once again.
Also, can everyone stop mentioning the MC vs Thorzain game as if it was the holy grail of PvT?
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On May 05 2011 03:01 space_yes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:48 Yaotzin wrote:On May 05 2011 02:29 IntoTheSnow wrote:
Thors getting nerf is the last thing TvP needs. TvP at its current state hugely favours P especially on maps like Tal and Crevasse. P deathball have to be addressed at some point and P ability to chrono units like collo out at double speed have to be corrected too.
Say it all you want, the evidence disagrees. This blind "Protoss is OP!!!" with zero evidence to back it up, is extremely tiresome. Hell, the evidence actually indicates the opposite, if anything. Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:00 Yaotzin wrote:
My bad, misremembered. So there are 2 builds toss can't really stop, both based around Thors. Funny that. Clearly he forgot that all his posts were on 1 hotkey..
Haha ^^. And Yaotzin say what?! P are still stronger in the lategame (Just check any replays where it goes into the lategame lol), don't see why Thors should be nerfed, collosi are way stronger in big numbers then Thors -.-'
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On May 05 2011 03:03 no.1 kissy boy wrote:
Because you made a statement (whose validity many people doubt, including myself) without presenting evidence and then accused other people of doing the same.
I have no problem if people don't accept what I say about Thors because I can't present replays/vods. Perfectly reasonable.
Haha ^^. And Yaotzin say what?! P are still stronger in the lategame (Just check any replays where it goes into the lategame lol), don't see why Thors should be nerfed, collosi are way stronger in big numbers then Thors -.-'
When discussing balance I care about actual evidence, not a biased look at replays. Evidence says Protoss ain't OP in PvT. It's preeeetty conclusive on that.
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On May 05 2011 02:44 Treva wrote:
I still don't see why people see the infestor change as a nerf. IdrA and Machine made a pretty good point on SotG last night by saying that it is actually a good thing for zerg since they can now have better control of the infestor in the sense that it won't be as common for them to run in front of units and get killed. They can now be more managed where they can stay in the back easier and cast removing the rush of casting before they are killed. Not saying a .25 speed nerf will make them slow as shit but they compared the use to templars in the sense that you want them in the back casting so they can't be sniped easily. This will help zerg achieve that to an extant now. People just see "decreased" and think nerf.
Do you know how much us Protoss players would PAY for a caster who runs out in front and dies? How much we would pay for HTs as fast as Infestors, or even Sentries? A fast caster with an immobilizing, damaging spell is a serious advantage. Slowing the caster down weakens this threat.
We'll see how it plays out, I guess.
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On May 05 2011 03:06 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 03:03 no.1 kissy boy wrote:
Because you made a statement (whose validity many people doubt, including myself) without presenting evidence and then accused other people of doing the same. I have no problem if people don't accept what I say about Thors because I can't present replays/vods. Perfectly reasonable. Show nested quote +
Haha ^^. And Yaotzin say what?! P are still stronger in the lategame (Just check any replays where it goes into the lategame lol), don't see why Thors should be nerfed, collosi are way stronger in big numbers then Thors -.-'
I have no problem if people don't accept what I say about Thors because I can't present replays/vods. Perfectly reasonable.
If so, then why did you accuse people of blindly saying stuff with "zero evidence to back it up"?
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you know what they could do to balance the colossus while at the same time adding a higher skill cap to the game?
slow their movement speed so they need warp prisms to carry them around with the main army. like the reavers of sc1
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Archon change seems fair, equal range to Mutalisks will be interesting.
As for the Thor change, they were hardly a staple in TvP to begin with and 250mm was generally only used in early-mid game rushes to whack Immortals.
Beyond that the ability is never used.
Does mean you can Feedback Thors again, but I haven't seen any big Thor play where Feedback would really make a difference. 150 energy is too much though for an ability that does less DPS than the auto-attack and leaves the Thor totally vulnerable. Now if it had increased range (say 9) then it might be worth something.
Perhaps Blizz fears with the Ghost change that Thor + Ghost will ruin the day or something, but just mass Colossi + Gateway/Chargelot would tear that apart easily.
Feels random to me.
Also, for those discussing mass Thor, it's terrible.
No mobility, there is no open space on any map wide enough for more than 6-7 Thors making for terrible concaves and just massing T1/T2 units will generally tear mass Thor to pieces.
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EPT
